EPTI find it fun and entertaining in games where not much is going on. The enthusiasm is real and it's there, which is more than can be said for many.
But he's definitely not the right guy for the big tournaments.
[IPL] IdrA vs. Drewbie - TotalBiscuit casting - Page 6
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KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
I find it fun and entertaining in games where not much is going on. The enthusiasm is real and it's there, which is more than can be said for many. But he's definitely not the right guy for the big tournaments. | ||
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darthcaesar
United States475 Posts
On April 26 2011 04:53 Kogut wrote: I'd argue that my ad hominem isn't actually a logical fallacy in this case, but your point is somewhat valid. Indeed, i see some of the validity of the ad hominem, but your tone makes it borderline. Hence my "dare I say." There's no excuse for the generalizations, however. | ||
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Tegu
Great Britain93 Posts
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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
On April 26 2011 05:08 Kogut wrote: That's a good story, and it's great that people are being brought into the fold from casters such as TB. Do keep in mind that I welcomed the YouTube casting to continue (and even streams, for that matter). My issue is with 'major' tournaments being accurately, and dare I say skillfully, casted. Even television casters can be terrible. Especially in Soccer(football) you can get the ones with an attrocious accent that are impossible to understand or the incredibly biased ones towards a team they used to suit up for. Like you said the ESPN ones were retired players and retired coaches. Yes it is nice to have their expertise but you cannot get that on a game less than a year old. Major tournaments also want their games to appeal to the majority of people. If 5% of the total possible viewers don't tune into the games because they are not analytical enough it is not big deal. If 45% of the possible viewers did not tune in because the commentating was over analytical that is a bigger loss for them and their sponsors. You have to remember some people don't care about casters and don't get up in arms over it. This site has a lot of users that only had Korean commentating and could not understand it, but still watched regardless. | ||
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Kogut
United States147 Posts
On April 26 2011 05:04 FilthyPout wrote: I love the absurdity of premising your post with a thinly veiled argument from authority based on a philosophy degree. Not only does the defective induction highlight your lack of philosophical credentials, but your flaunting of an undergraduate degree makes you look more than a little foolish. At least start your PhD before you start using eduation as a real basis for personal authority. There are very many people who enjoy TBs casting. It may not be your cup of tea, but luckily the world doesn't revolve around you, nor is e-sports determined by your particular (I presume you can pick that out as the negative of 'universal', given the vast extent of your education) whims and fancies. There is no imperative standard beyond entertainment value, and so long as people take pleasure in TBs casting, he should keep at it. I think the variety of styles is a great advantage of the IPLs line up. Disregarding the flames, which were mild at best, let's look at what I actually said... I pointed out things that were not accurately said during a cast. You are arguing, as have others before you, that entertainment is all that matters. Are you really trying to defend false statements during a tournament cast as being acceptable because he has a good voice (which I have never argued against) that entertains people? As I've said before, I just don't see "I like your voice, and you entertain me," as justification for making false statements. If you were looking for an attempt to justify my educational choices or something of the sort, you're out of luck. I graduated last summer, and I've been helping take care of family members who helped put me through college, all while trying to find a 'real job' in this economy. Turns out, my degree actually held some value to a particular company. Whether you find value in it or not isn't a concern of mine. What do I think of you, Mr. FilthyPout? But I don't think of you. | ||
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Kogut
United States147 Posts
On April 26 2011 05:12 Jedclark wrote: Is this really five pages about whether you like Totalbiscuit or not? If you don't like him, don't watch him. Don't call him bad because you don't like him, he has a large following whose opinions differ to yours. There's not a magic scale casters abide by, it's opinion. This could've been said in the second post, and ended the discussion there. No, but I can't expect newcomers to read through the entire thing. Debating editing the first post with a disclaimer at the beginning for people who don't care for the actual discussion, and only want a quick punchline. | ||
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Prebbual
United States3 Posts
It looks like Kogut just wants TB to be more accurate in his casts. Perhaps his approach to that plead is wrong, but I don't really think that matters. It's not really "blasphemous" to say that TotalBiscuit could improve on his actual game knowledge. From what I gather, Kogut is arguing that all casters should have some semblance of accuracy. Sure, you can be a play-by-play guy, but you can't be saying completely incorrect facts, which is something TB is actually known for. I do believe a caster cannot be immaculate in that respect, but it should be important to keep that down to a bare minimum, no? While I don't expect TB to turn into Artosis overnight, I do sometimes wish he, and a lot of other casters, could be at least accurate with the little analysis they do provide. The occasional hiccups do occur, and that's completely forgiveable, but when someone says something completely wrong quite often, I think that's a problem that can (and should?) be addressed. I am not demanding, nor do I believe Kogut is either, that TB changes his style, but for him to become a bit more accurate. I really don't think it could cause any harm, and can only improve the experience for everyone. For those that are uneducated about Starcraft, I don't think they would be upset when TB says something correct or wrong, but for the experienced viewer, it does make some of us cringe when he is deeply incorrect. If TB were to fix this, I'd say he could be more enjoyable for even more viewers, and isn't that the job of a caster? To attract a variety of audiences? I don't know, maybe that's a misconception on my part. I'm a bit simple, so I can't articulate my thoughts as well as you fellas can. P.S. I don't think anyone can argue the demographic that TB pulls in, but if he could be appeasable to even more people, why not? Or is it his role to only appeal to a certain niche of viewers? | ||
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Kogut
United States147 Posts
On April 26 2011 05:10 adeezy wrote: And in my response to your blog I'll reserve the right to write a response as I like, the same way chill has You don't have to say that you opinion matters in the first paragraph to make it a self affirmation, it's obvious because you put it as an intro. And as far as youre last line, "all you can do is complain", i feel like youre putting yourself in the group of people who complain about balance in LR threads and complain about casters every chance they get. Which seems plausible considering you made a whole blog about complaining. lol Did you know there's a way to read every past post made by a member of Team Liquid? You missed my joke entirely, so let me break it down. You: If you don't like it, don't watch it. Me: If you don't like it, don't read it. You: I CAN TYPE WHAT I WANT BECAUSE YOU CAN TYPE WHAT YOU WANT AND SO DID CHILL!1! | ||
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darthcaesar
United States475 Posts
On April 26 2011 05:16 Kogut wrote: Are you really trying to defend false statements during a tournament cast as being acceptable because he has a good voice (which I have never argued against) that entertains people? As I've said before, I just don't see "I like your voice, and you entertain me," as justification for making false statements. It's called politics. | ||
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Chillax
England585 Posts
He's sponsered showmatches and tournaments, hes given a lot of help to up and coming casters like Catspajamas. He has a genuine interest and a passion about the game and esports in general. Poor bloke cast a UK lan yesterday for like 8 hours and in the process had almost lost his voice All subjective and my opinion of course, but the guy should be bloody praised for what he does and what he gives us all. I dont expect casters to be perfect gosu level know it alls. I watch Starcraft for entertainment. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On April 26 2011 05:26 Chillax wrote: Really do not understand the hate TB gets. He has never claimed to be an expert at this game. He does however LOVE starcraft ,dedicates a fair amount of his free time to do casting, when he could be making a lot more cash doing other things. He's sponsered showmatches and tournaments, hes given a lot of help to up and coming casters like Catspajamas. He has a genuine interest and a passion about the game and esports in general. Poor bloke cast a UK lan yesterday for like 8 hours and in the process had almost lost his voice All subjective and my opinion of course, but the guy should be bloody praised for what he does and what he gives us all. Fortunately the world more or less gets by without everyone understanding precisely why another human being might not like the same things you or I do. I wish the internet would stop throwing around the word "hate" so freely. I doubt anyone who doesn't care for TB's video game casting truly hates him. Why do we always jump right to these extremes in what is a simple matter of opinion. Some people like TB's casting, other people don't like it. Where in that do we arrive at there being hatred or loathing for another person? | ||
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Prebbual
United States3 Posts
On April 26 2011 05:26 Chillax wrote: I dont expect casters to be perfect gosu level know it alls. I watch Starcraft for entertainment. And that's what seperates you and a good handful of other people. While I am sure your opinion is in the majority, I hope the minority opinion gets the same respect, so we can avoid getting bombarded with the many achievements, casts, sponorships, and praise of TotalBiscuit. I would dare to say that a caster, of any genre, should be informed. While there are varying degrees of being well educated in the elaborate game of SC2, I believe that TB is one of the least informed casters when related to how popular he is. That may come out to be a little demeaning, but I hope it will not offend TB or any of his avid followers. | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
On April 26 2011 05:21 Kogut wrote: Did you know there's a way to read every past post made by a member of Team Liquid? You missed my joke entirely, so let me break it down. You: If you don't like it, don't watch it. Me: If you don't like it, don't read it. You: I CAN TYPE WHAT I WANT BECAUSE YOU CAN TYPE WHAT YOU WANT AND SO DID CHILL!1! Still condescending, don't know what your problem is dude, what you said didn't seem like a joke at all | ||
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Prebbual
United States3 Posts
On April 26 2011 05:41 adeezy wrote: Still condescending, don't know what your problem is dude. Is that really the fault you should be focusing on? Attitude is something to consider, but sometimes it can be irrelevant. | ||
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
On April 25 2011 17:04 Torte de Lini wrote: [/b]Maybe I'm just becoming so tired of hearing "FOR ESPORTS, WE MUST HAVE RIGID XYZ STANDARDS AND DEMANDS TO PRESERVE THE LIFE OF THIS PROSPERING CONCEPT OF COMPETITIVE NATURE" This is so absolutely true. Totalbiscuit is not going to ruin the worlds perspective on E-sports. Totalbiscuit is a husky type caster, for entertainment. he doesn't need to be super pro at everything. So long as i don't have to watch a silent game with no commentary, TB can stay. Espiecially cuz calling him that reminds me of world or warcraft. Edit: TB= Thunder Bluff. Of course. | ||
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Darthozzan
Sweden136 Posts
Sorry, just had to get that out of me. Personally, I get so excited when I listen to TB casting a big battle, and his fluidity during a battle is, as a fellow caster, inspiring. Have you ever tried actually casting a game? It is ridiculously mentally demanding, and the fact that you went back and analyzed his casting is baffling. Psych. Majors... You think TB isn't furthering eSports? Well, guess what, you might actually be harming eSports with idiotic posts like this. He's actually getting off his ass and doing something about it, including sponsoring the british Collegiate league. Please come back when you've actually done anything to help eSports in any capacity except complain over free, amazing content which you hold to some ludicrous standard you invented yourself. | ||
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darthcaesar
United States475 Posts
Now, I could point out all casters (yes, even Day[9]) make mistakes, and we could get in a debate over whether TB's statements were intentional or not. You might say he was ignorant to his misinformation and others might say he simply slipped up. That, however, is an issue I do not believe we can resolve as we do not have enough information to do so. Back to my original point - your assumed target audience of the cast. Starting from your personal opinion of disliking TB because of his "false statements," you generalize that "the casters of large tournaments need to be held accountable." This jump in reasoning assumes that all of the target audience of the cast shares your personal opinions. Consider the case of a person unfamiliar to StarCraft II (like the person on page 5 of this thread). If this person watches TB, do you think he will care about "false statements"? No, he won't - because this person doesn't know these statements are false. What he does know is that he is being entertained and enthralled by the game. This is an example of the kind of target audience your statement ignores. Of all leagues, the IPL has the highest likelihood of attracting new fans - which, I think, we can both agree is a good thing. We want the StarCraft II community to grow. This is why TB is perfect for the IPL - he makes the game exciting. I saw someone post on twitter that TB could make drying paint exciting. That is the value he brings into the picture. I'm not arguing that TB's "false statements" are good; I'm also not arguing TB doesn't have room to improve. What I'm saying is consider the fact that not everyone is looking for the same values as you are, and you need to take that into account when making generalizations as you have done. | ||
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
As my knowledge of the intricacies of the game increased I gravitated toward more knowledgeable casters and eventually the Day[9] daily (when it was about Brood War, that is). But unless I was entertained by plebian bullshit while learning I never would have stuck with what I didn't understand was an actual sport at the time. Give the entertainers a break, they're not for you. | ||
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Tin_Foil
United States243 Posts
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Kogut
United States147 Posts
Just read what you typed for me one more time. You seem to throw me into a group of people who do not want to be entertained. That's not the case, as I said I watch the tournaments and cast as part of my evening entertainment. You say that he brings new viewers, which I have never argued against. You infer, even if you don't say it, that a caster need not be held accountable for the accuracy of their statements, so long as they are entertaining. I may be making a jump to get that point, but it's one I think is rather reasonable. | ||
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