New Intro: I posted this blog entry (my first) late on Sunday night while waiting for GSL Code A to come on. I decided to watch the IdrA vs. Drewbie matches from the IGN Pro League, as I had not gotten a chance to sit through them yet. What I found was exciting, yet somewhat disconnected commentary from the beloved caster known as TotalBiscuit (or TotalHalibut as I knew him in the strictly WoW days). It was quite literally 1:00 AM, and after the second match, I decided that I would finally write a blog post, posting my feelings about the somewhat lackluster commentary from casters, focusing on this matchup casted by TotalBiscuit. What resulted was a bit of flaming and ranting about how I feel casters should strive to better themselves.
People proceeded to launch attacks on all fronts, and my thoughts were tied in with other people simply flaming TB and other casters for no purpose other than to satisfy themselves and/or vent a bit of frustration. I went for a run this afternoon, 5k views and 100+ posts later, and thought about how much commotion had come from this simple blog post.
I just want to clarify that my intention was to call attention to the gaps that our beloved casters can fill, in order to better themselves. I have sent feedback to many casters, both positive and negative, and it's been met with mixed reactions in the past. The same turned out to be true here, although this was the most public realm I've used to date. Hell, there were accounts made just to post in my blog, which is far more than I ever expected.
Key Points: I do not demand that TB or any other caster quit casting. I encourage people to continue to practice and hone their skills on places such as YouTube and lesser tournament streams. I do not demand that casts be boring and strictly analytical. I do enjoy TotalBiscuit's way of presenting a match in general, or I would have been watching the cast muted. I do not speak for eSports as a whole, and I do not demand that you see things my way. I was simply complaining that some casts, such as the matchup I focused on initially, are inaccurate in the information being presented to the audience. It's great that people are excited for games, and I do not wish to take that away. What I want is for casters such as TotalBiscuit to continue their journey, improve their knowledge, and be able to present a more accurate account of the game they are casting. That's really it, guys.
So many people have come to this blog post and tried to start a flame war. I've been criticized in so many ways that I just started laughing at one point. All I ask is that people better themselves. The status quo is not something that anybody on Earth should be happy with. We can all be better than what we are right now. There's no room to debate that, unless you are a member of The Justice League (well, maybe Seaman has some room for improvement, and what good is Wonder Woman's invisible ship if you can see her sitting in it?). In now way am I demanding that casters such as TotalBiscuit stop casting. If anything, as I have typed, I demand that they try and better themselves for the progression of our chosen hobby which is eSports. Please do not continue to write asinine comments about how entertaining casts by TB and others have brought you to the game. We all know, and it's not what I've written about in any way. Give him a break? From what? Improving himself to be a better caster and public representative of the StarCraft community?
With all that out of the way, Here is my original, unedited & pretty harsh, post about Game 1 of the matchup...
Original intro (about me, and partially why I'm posting my first blog entry)+ Show Spoiler +
I was a Philosophy major in college. I hate logical fallacies more than most of you hate anything you've ever come across (even the 4-gate!). I just got a wonderful new job, which pays extremely well for a young lad fresh out of college with a semi-useless degree, and hopefully will lead to a computer that will enable me to do my own casts one day. Until then, all I can do is complain here.
I really did try, guys. I have never had a problem understanding people with various accents, I'm well traveled, and I do quite a few impersonations/accents at parties or just in daily life as amusement for myself and others. My problem isn't currently with people sounding professional or whatnot (as there are plenty of concerns about that voiced already). No, my concern is with casters being held accountable for more than just loudly saying what's in front of them on the screen, and even that is becoming harder for some people to do...
This brings me to my first discussion: IdrA vs. Drewbie in the IGN Pro League (Obviously spoilers, so they're spoilered) Before you post, I'd ask that you at least watch one of these matches again (or for the first time). You may have deep feelings about a caster who I am discussing, but if you don't actually hear and see it for yourself, you really have no way of backing up anything you type into that little white box.
IdrA goes 14 gas/14 pool. TB remarks that it's weird because IdrA could very easily have expanded on XNC, but that his explanation is IdrA wanting to apply early pressure. TB then remarks that the expansion, especially against a Terran, is very accessible. Wait just a second... Didn't you say IdrA could have easily expanded on this map, yet it's vulnerable to harassment of the natural? Okay, maybe he just means that Zerg can harass a Terran?
Drewbie's scouting SCV arrives at IdrA's base, and is said to be sad to not find a hatchery, as it would have fallen in well with Drewbie's aggressive 2 Barracks (called Bunkers at this moment in the cast) build. IdrA pushes out with a few lings, picks off a marine, forces Drewbie to pull the 2nd Rax (built semi-proxy outside his own natural) back to the main.
"Drewbie has no gas, so this is a time for IdrA to do some real damage!" At the moment this is said, IdrA has 2 lings, Metabolic Boost is maybe 1/4 of the way completed, there are half a dozen marines heading to IdrA's base, the rest of the Terran base is locked down/walled, and there are 10 lings being produced. What is IdrA going to do any damage with? His natural hatchery isn't even finished, and he has no tech. How does a zerg with slow lings damage a Terran with 2 barracks who is building more and a command center inside his base? Let alone one trying to get a 2nd base up himeself...
The 11 zerglings head toward Drewbie's base. TB remarks that he is concerned that Drewbie will not be able to "hold the line against that." Really? When's the last time 11 lings did anything to a Terran walled off base with marines standing at the front? Drewbie is building the OC on the expo CC first, so it's not like he's losing out on much of anything, even if the lings manage to contain him for a bit.
Drewbie gets up 2 factories, starts blue flame & hellions, and sits comfortably in his base. IdrA has almost completed a baneling nest and a roach warren. "IdrA still has plenty of time... to go on the attack and start applying some real pressure." TB just got done telling us that IdrA is only going to make drones (because he has an almost insatiable love for them, more than any other zerg), and there are still only 11 lings out on the map. IdrA scouts and retreats to work on opening his gold expansion, while Drewbie finally pushes out with some hellions.
Drewbie starts an armory to upgrade his mech, but TB tells us that it's a strange move because he's not upgrading his marines. Last I checked, those aren't necessarily linked concepts. Realizing the mistake, TB points out that we will probably see Thors or a large number of vehicle upgrades for hellions. Yes, the 2 things that an armory provides are the two things we might see happen... "One way or the other, it certainly does make a lot of sense because his opponent is making lots of roaches." Well upgrading the hellions vs. roaches really doesn't make a lot of sense. And Drewbie had no idea how many roaches were on the field until he ran up and had his hellions pushed back by roaches. By the way, IdrA arrives at the base to find Tanks with Siege Mode (the one thing not mentioned).
IdrA forces the GG after pushing into the base. TB then tells us that the aggressive IdrA we just saw is that which we know and love (and hate). Wait a sec... The start of the game was filled with comments about how we should not be surprised by IdrA making drones rather than military units. He went so far as to call the Gracken "mechanical" and say that he loves drones more than almost any other zerg. Yet, the aggressive style we just saw was classic IdrA in the end... Strange how confused he was with the 14g/14p choice at the start, if this is what we should've expected all along.
Game 2:
It's quite long, and I accomplished what I set out to do. If you've seen it, you don't need explanation. If you haven't seen it, you're just going to flame me and/or generalize.
The moral of this story is that the casters of large tournaments need to be held accountable. How many people complained about Forcefields being called Stasis when the GSL first started? That was just a simple mistake from years of playing the original game. The kind of logical fallacies that we are seeing from, dare I say, the more inexperienced casters, is driving me insane. I don't have the time to put into playing at a professional level, and it's also not what I want to do with my life right now. I'm working on my career, but I really do enjoy being able to sit down and watch StarCraft 2 tournaments when I get some free time. As such, I read a lot of threads on TL and other places, I listen to podcasts, watch streams & tournaments, and really do keep up with what's happening at the highest levels of the game. Just because I cannot execute every high level strategy with ease does not mean that I cannot grasp the vast majority of the intricacies. It also does not prevent my logic check from running in the back of my head, as that happens whenever I hear anybody speak about anything from years of practice and necessity.
You don't have to be a former NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, Soccer, etc player to be knowledgeable about the sport and have a deep understanding of the game. However, the people who are paid money to talk to us about those games have an even deeper understanding. Turn on ESPN and you'll find a coach or former player breaking down the intricacies of a 10 second play in the game. That person being there is not an accident. We should demand nothing but the best if we truly do want eSports to become respected globally. I know that I've sat down friends and family members who knew nothing more than that StarCraft was a computer game, and had them watch the Day9 Daily, GSL (Code S and pre-A seasons), and the TSL, and they've been able to understand not only what was going on, but why it mattered. Do you really think that someone like that would be able to understand what was going on in these games?
I can't believe what he was saying in game 1 of the incontrol agh match. No offense, but I really believe he needs to learn his stuff, so that new players don't get any bad ideas from these kind if casters.
I thought it was well known TB was a gold league or something, hes got an awesome voice for casting, but thats about it. He's great for shoutcasting whats going on, but as for strategical analysis, it really should be left to someone more qualified.Artosis can't cast every event yo .
On April 25 2011 16:49 GiygaS wrote: I can't believe what he was saying in game 1 of the incontrol agh match. No offense, but I really believe he needs to learn his stuff, so that new players don't get any bad ideas from these kind if casters.
Believe me, that's another topic hot on my mind. Until then, here's some words. Let me know where the "R" sound comes in on them...
Some casters know almost nothing about starcraft 2. The reason they are hired by ppls like the IPL is that they can yell about stuff on the screen and are good at it. They can say blatantly ignorant things but it's fine if they can yell about stuff on the screen well.
We should demand nothing but the best if we truly do want eSports to become respected globally
Who's we?
I like TB and overlook his mistakes because so long as he attracts more viewers, interested parties and drums up more popularity for events, the legs of ESports can stand on their own.
No offense, but I am really tired of hearing people wave the flag of E-Sports like it's a prideful patriotic notion that must be upheld in the name of Freedom, Liberty and the Sanctum of a prospering sport that strived for anyone and everyone to at least tune in or get at least a clue of what it is.
Maybe I'm tired, but I really dislike this blog post. Maybe I'm bias towards liking TB? Maybe I'm just becoming so tired of hearing "FOR ESPORTS, WE MUST HAVE RIGID XYZ STANDARDS AND DEMANDS TO PRESERVE THE LIFE OF THIS PROSPERING CONCEPT OF COMPETITIVE NATURE"
I talked to E-Sports, he told me the more the merrier and that he's a big fucking boy.
I'm not denying some people should do their homework [I'm looking at you; HDStarcraft], but be honest; just say you don't like certain casters because they either make unintelligible remarks, go at the game/match the wrong way or simply rub you the wrong way. Rereading your narrative of Game 1, it does sound like TB is way off the mark, maybe it's something that commonly occurs from TB (I never personally noticed, but I don't pay attention to the narration to that extent), maybe your cherry-picking here and simply ignoring what is accepted or normal of a caster to say and purely making a streamline straight towards a caster's faults.
To sum it up as the preservation of E-Sports is to put on a pedestal it should never be on. E-Sports is for everyone. A caster can be anyone, do you blame TB for making poor remarks and calls on the game or do we blame IPL for selecting someone potentially inadequate for these high-caliber play.
Why do we have to blame anyone? Why do we need to have this entitled view that grants the best of the best of the best of everything? Mute the sound, cross your legs and enjoy the games with your own narration. You don't have to go out of your way to avoid something, but don't make it an issue that demands that TB accept his faults, realize his mistakes (which are unintentional) and retire from casting.
P.S: Do you have a vid. of this match (#1) btw? Also, please post Game 2 for a more concrete idea of what you're trying to say.
Edit: I probably drew your entire blog post out of proportion, feel free to correct me and I'll make some proper edits
I have to agree with this really. The abundance of play-by-play casters solo casting in the IPL is the only thing I dislike about it. Sure a lot of people will find their commentary to be entertaining because they are enthusiastic and have a good voice for it, but for me, well I just find it boring. They don't seem to talk about the "big picture", sorry but I don't really care that this scv is making a depo inside his base.... Telling people this guy is making x is not what I want to know, I can see that, I would like to know WHY he made it and how it fits into his strategy. What will come of this? How will the opponent have to react? Will it do well? Is this really a smart thing to do? A caster that talks about this is what I find to be entertaining. Otherwise it's just not worth listening to (IMO), might as well mute and put on some music (which is actually what I did) :p
We should demand nothing but the best if we truly do want eSports to become respected globally
Who's we?
I like TB and overlook his mistakes because so long as he attracts more viewers, interested parties and drums up more popularity for events, the legs of ESports can stand on their own.
No offense, but I am really tired of hearing people wave the flag of E-Sports like it's a prideful patriotic notion that must be upheld in the name of Freedom, Liberty and the Sanctum of a prospering sport that strived for anyone and everyone to at least tune in or get at least a clue of what it is.
Maybe I'm tired, but I really dislike this blog post. Maybe I'm bias towards liking TB? Maybe I'm just becoming so tired of hearing "FOR ESPORTS, WE MUST HAVE RIGID XYZ STANDARDS AND DEMANDS TO PRESERVE THE LIFE OF THIS PROSPERING CONCEPT OF COMPETITIVE NATURE"
I talked to E-Sports, he told me the more the merrier and that he's a big fucking boy.
I'm not denying some people should do their homework [I'm looking at you, HDStarcraft], but be honest; just say you don't like certain casters because they either make unintelligible remarks, go at the game/match the wrong way or simply rub you the wrong way.
To sum it up as the preservation of E-Sports is to put on a pedestal it should never be on. E-Sports is for everyone.
P.S: Do you have a vid. of this match (#1) btw? Also, please post Game 2 for a more concrete idea of what you're trying to say.
Yay, my first conflict! Note how my post, which you quoted, states "respected globally" as the goal. It does not address your concern, which is simply getting more viewers at any cost. For getting masses of people, sure, yelling loud things in funny voices and having pretty pictures is great. For retaining them (and their interest) and building the brand, as well as the respect in the sporting world (my stated goal), there needs to be a level of accuracy and consistency. I did not address your issue to my knowledge.
Original post edited after I send this with link to the IPL video page. From there, you can filter by caster, player, race, etc (quite a nice system now that the bugs are worked out).
I wholeheartedly agree with all of this but I think it's been said. There's plenty of casters out there who are terrible and just say things for the sake of saying things. I used to hate how every caster pointed out Blistering Sands' backrocks, push in stead of attack, Colossi as singular etc. d'Apollo (and even Day9) has a knack for saying "oh this player just LOVES building X" even is X is a scouting Reaper and it just annoys. But yeah it's all been said and said again and I don't think anything will change very soon. I nowadays mute most casters (unless it's TB who is pretty much pure adrenaline injected into my ears <3) and turn on some music in stead. About the accountability, I don't think that the tournament organisers know the game too well and just contact the most popular (read: loudest) guy to invite as caster (IEM Cologne?) and some don't care about the content and pick the popular casters to increase viewer numbers (NASL?).
Now that I think about it, if any tournament is able to pick a caster after a good assessment of their casting ability it's NASL and it's sad to see them go this direction (only found out TB casts NASL through this topic).
For retaining them (and their interest) and building the brand, as well as the respect in the sporting world (my stated goal), there needs to be a level of accuracy and consistency
The more exposure, the more retention, the possibility of increased interest and thus respect will be gained through numbers and a larger hardened group will bloom analytical casters that have accuracy and consistency.
I think what you're asking (which is accountability) is just purely ridiculous and taking things more sternly than they need to be.
my concern is with casters being held accountable for more than just loudly saying what's in front of them on the screen, and even that is becoming harder for some people to do...
To be honest, what really guts me is this line:
Turn on ESPN and you'll find a coach or former player breaking down the intricacies of a 10 second play in the game. That person being there is not an accident. We should demand nothing but the best if we truly do want eSports to become respected globally.
Wasn't there a lovely topic or blog that stated we shouldn't treat E-Sports equally to actual national sports? Sure wish I had that on-hand.
There is so many things wrong with this quote...
Though I'm going to bed, I feel we both want the same thing, but I think your ideals aren't same as my own, at least not the approach. This idea of "demanding" perpetuates these views that we're an entitled group and our demands are for some noble cause. I might be misinterpreted, but that's the gist of what I'm reading lately in general (maybe not to you personally, but I feel this is equally thinking a parallel idea).
On April 25 2011 17:14 Pholon wrote: I wholeheartedly agree with all of this but I think it's been said. There's plenty of casters out there who are terrible and just say things for the sake of saying things. I used to hate how every caster pointed out Blistering Sands' backrocks, push in stead of attack, Colossi as singular etc. d'Apollo (and even Day9) has a knack for saying "oh this player just LOVES building X" even is X is a scouting Reaper and it just annoys. But yeah it's all been said and said again and I don't think anything will change very soon. I nowadays mute most casters (unless it's TB who is pretty much pure adrenaline injected into my ears <3) and turn on some music in stead. About the accountability, I don't think that the tournament organisers know the game too well and just contact the most popular (read: loudest) guy to invite as caster (IEM Cologne?) and some don't care about the content and pick the popular casters to increase viewer numbers (NASL?).
Now that I think about it, if any tournament is able to pick a caster after a good assessment of their casting ability it's NASL and it's sad to see them go this direction (only found out TB casts NASL through this topic).
You're confusing NASL with the IPL. The NASL has one caster in grandmasters and one caster who is 19th in line to get into grandmasters.
On April 25 2011 17:13 Torte de Lini wrote: I re-edited my post, tell me if it needs tweaking or changing.
Meh, you took your side to it. I welcome actual discussion in all things, and one opinion has no more value than another in something preferential like casting video games. I don't think TB should just retire and run away (although I do seem to recall a big fiasco about him retiring, then coming back, then talking trash about IGN, then casting for them...), but I do maintain that he (and everyone else putting themselves out there in actual tournaments (do what you want and hone your craft on YouTube) should strive to simply be better. As I noted, Nick & Dan had to really work on using the SC2 names for units and spells instead of the SC:BW versions. This was something pointed out quite a bit during the early days of the GSL, and they fixed it. Sure, we knew what they meant, but why not work on the little things to make yourself an overall better caster (since it is an actual career move for most people doing major tournaments).
Sure, this blog post came late at night while I'm waiting for the GSL to appear, and it is quite flammable towards TB, but I don't believe I actually said anything false in it. That's more than can be said for his casting of most IPL matches I've seen thus far. I do watch many tournaments muted, but I love when a caster can get into the action, give an accurate representation of the game's events, and take it that extra step. Each piece that a caster adds to the puzzle adds another level of enjoyment for me. Play-by-play is great, but sometimes even having John Madden show up and draw pictures adds just a little bit extra that puts a broadcast up a level. That's what I'm going for with the eSports pedestal (which I readily admit to standing on from time to time). I just want things to improve because the status quo has the room for it to occur, and only good things can come of it.
We should demand nothing but the best if we truly do want eSports to become respected globally
Who's we?
I like TB and overlook his mistakes because so long as he attracts more viewers, interested parties and drums up more popularity for events, the legs of ESports can stand on their own.
No offense, but I am really tired of hearing people wave the flag of E-Sports like it's a prideful patriotic notion that must be upheld in the name of Freedom, Liberty and the Sanctum of a prospering sport that strived for anyone and everyone to at least tune in or get at least a clue of what it is.
Maybe I'm tired, but I really dislike this blog post. Maybe I'm bias towards liking TB? Maybe I'm just becoming so tired of hearing "FOR ESPORTS, WE MUST HAVE RIGID XYZ STANDARDS AND DEMANDS TO PRESERVE THE LIFE OF THIS PROSPERING CONCEPT OF COMPETITIVE NATURE"
I talked to E-Sports, he told me the more the merrier and that he's a big fucking boy.
I'm not denying some people should do their homework [I'm looking at you; HDStarcraft], but be honest; just say you don't like certain casters because they either make unintelligible remarks, go at the game/match the wrong way or simply rub you the wrong way. Rereading your narrative of Game 1, it does sound like TB is way off the mark, maybe it's something that commonly occurs from TB (I never personally noticed, but I don't pay attention to the narration to that extent), maybe your cherry-picking here and simply ignoring what is accepted or normal of a caster to say and purely making a streamline straight towards a caster's faults.
To sum it up as the preservation of E-Sports is to put on a pedestal it should never be on. E-Sports is for everyone. A caster can be anyone, do you blame TB for making poor remarks and calls on the game or do we blame IPL for selecting someone potentially inadequate for these high-caliber play.
Why do we have to blame anyone? Why do we need to have this entitled view that grants the best of the best of the best of everything? Mute the sound, cross your legs and enjoy the games with your own narration. You don't have to go out of your way to avoid something, but don't make it an issue that demands that TB accept his faults, realize his mistakes (which are unintentional) and retire from casting.
P.S: Do you have a vid. of this match (#1) btw? Also, please post Game 2 for a more concrete idea of what you're trying to say.
Edit: I probably drew your entire blog post out of proportion, feel free to correct me and I'll make some proper edits
Heh I remember our little back and forth in PM's about HD's lack of knowledge its funny cause hes a masters player too he i just really ignorant about other races, its actually alot better when painuser is there to correct him but its still hilarious to watch someone make so many blatant mistakes in a cast. HD i think is the worst culprit because I think that he thinks he knows alot so he will just spout off about it. At least TB admits he isnt aware of all the intricacies of the game and says it something hes working on.
Either way they both piss me off in their own right TB more so in IPL because hes solo casting and there is no one to call him on his shit.
On April 25 2011 17:13 Torte de Lini wrote: I re-edited my post, tell me if it needs tweaking or changing.
Meh, you took your side to it. I welcome actual discussion in all things, and one opinion has no more value than another in something preferential like casting video games. I don't think TB should just retire and run away (although I do seem to recall a big fiasco about him retiring, then coming back, then talking trash about IGN, then casting for them...), but I do maintain that he (and everyone else putting themselves out there in actual tournaments (do what you want and hone your craft on YouTube) should strive to simply be better. As I noted, Nick & Dan had to really work on using the SC2 names for units and spells instead of the SC:BW versions. This was something pointed out quite a bit during the early days of the GSL, and they fixed it. Sure, we knew what they meant, but why not work on the little things to make yourself an overall better caster (since it is an actual career move for most people doing major tournaments).
Sure, this blog post came late at night while I'm waiting for the GSL to appear, and it is quite flammable towards TB, but I don't believe I actually said anything false in it. That's more than can be said for his casting of most IPL matches I've seen thus far. I do watch many tournaments muted, but I love when a caster can get into the action, give an accurate representation of the game's events, and take it that extra step. Each piece that a caster adds to the puzzle adds another level of enjoyment for me. Play-by-play is great, but sometimes even having John Madden show up and draw pictures adds just a little bit extra that puts a broadcast up a level. That's what I'm going for with the eSports pedestal (which I readily admit to standing on from time to time). I just want things to improve because the status quo has the room for it to occur, and only good things can come of it.
(see bold) Misconception, I believe that's entirely false and it's been clarified. Though I could be wrong.
Sure, TB should improve, I don't deny that. I don't like CatsPajamas casting. I love his voice, I love his choice of wording. I hate everything else that he says, I hate his errors, I hate his fumbling and I hate how he seems scattered or lost when more than one thing occurs at a time in a match. But I don't hold him accountable and it's almost assumed that all casters who are inadequate or still new (relative), strive to improve and I can see him improving (and he's doing great, plus getting some nice exposure!).
I think your blog post just came off maybe poorly worded, though I think I am just purely viewing it as something more than intended, which is a huge problem of mine.
Never compare E-Sports with Sports, you'll always be disappointed of aspects beyond the players and the actual match.
We should demand nothing but the best if we truly do want eSports to become respected globally
Who's we?
I like TB and overlook his mistakes because so long as he attracts more viewers, interested parties and drums up more popularity for events, the legs of ESports can stand on their own.
No offense, but I am really tired of hearing people wave the flag of E-Sports like it's a prideful patriotic notion that must be upheld in the name of Freedom, Liberty and the Sanctum of a prospering sport that strived for anyone and everyone to at least tune in or get at least a clue of what it is.
Maybe I'm tired, but I really dislike this blog post. Maybe I'm bias towards liking TB? Maybe I'm just becoming so tired of hearing "FOR ESPORTS, WE MUST HAVE RIGID XYZ STANDARDS AND DEMANDS TO PRESERVE THE LIFE OF THIS PROSPERING CONCEPT OF COMPETITIVE NATURE"
I talked to E-Sports, he told me the more the merrier and that he's a big fucking boy.
I'm not denying some people should do their homework [I'm looking at you; HDStarcraft], but be honest; just say you don't like certain casters because they either make unintelligible remarks, go at the game/match the wrong way or simply rub you the wrong way. Rereading your narrative of Game 1, it does sound like TB is way off the mark, maybe it's something that commonly occurs from TB (I never personally noticed, but I don't pay attention to the narration to that extent), maybe your cherry-picking here and simply ignoring what is accepted or normal of a caster to say and purely making a streamline straight towards a caster's faults.
To sum it up as the preservation of E-Sports is to put on a pedestal it should never be on. E-Sports is for everyone. A caster can be anyone, do you blame TB for making poor remarks and calls on the game or do we blame IPL for selecting someone potentially inadequate for these high-caliber play.
Why do we have to blame anyone? Why do we need to have this entitled view that grants the best of the best of the best of everything? Mute the sound, cross your legs and enjoy the games with your own narration. You don't have to go out of your way to avoid something, but don't make it an issue that demands that TB accept his faults, realize his mistakes (which are unintentional) and retire from casting.
P.S: Do you have a vid. of this match (#1) btw? Also, please post Game 2 for a more concrete idea of what you're trying to say.
Edit: I probably drew your entire blog post out of proportion, feel free to correct me and I'll make some proper edits
Heh I remember our little back and forth in PM's about HD's lack of knowledge its funny cause hes a masters player too he i just really ignorant about other races, its actually alot better when painuser is there to correct him but its still hilarious to watch someone make so many blatant mistakes in a cast. HD i think is the worst culprit because I think that he thinks he knows alot so he will just spout off about it. At least TB admits he isnt aware of all the intricacies of the game and says it something hes working on.
Either way they both piss me off in their own right TB more so in IPL because hes solo casting and there is no one to call him on his shit.
Whenever TB casts, he always puts a disclaimer that this is for more amateur or debutante viewers, which is a sort of double-play: It excuses him from making any mistakes because of his equal low [amateur] ranking in the actual ladder and it allows him to follow with more play-by-play rather than extending to something a bit more in-depth or beyond his scope of [current] knowledge. Whether he intentionally tries to learn the game a bit farther despite his ranking, one couldn't say (I always think optimistically and assume so). IF he says he's working on it, good for him!
Yeah, the solo-casting is a poor idea, but then again, duo-casting should be more to compliment one another, not for fact-checking [I know what you really meant, I just wanted my last-line to be witty].
We should demand nothing but the best if we truly do want eSports to become respected globally
Who's we?
I like TB and overlook his mistakes because so long as he attracts more viewers, interested parties and drums up more popularity for events, the legs of ESports can stand on their own.
No offense, but I am really tired of hearing people wave the flag of E-Sports like it's a prideful patriotic notion that must be upheld in the name of Freedom, Liberty and the Sanctum of a prospering sport that strived for anyone and everyone to at least tune in or get at least a clue of what it is.
Maybe I'm tired, but I really dislike this blog post. Maybe I'm bias towards liking TB? Maybe I'm just becoming so tired of hearing "FOR ESPORTS, WE MUST HAVE RIGID XYZ STANDARDS AND DEMANDS TO PRESERVE THE LIFE OF THIS PROSPERING CONCEPT OF COMPETITIVE NATURE"
I talked to E-Sports, he told me the more the merrier and that he's a big fucking boy.
I'm not denying some people should do their homework [I'm looking at you; HDStarcraft], but be honest; just say you don't like certain casters because they either make unintelligible remarks, go at the game/match the wrong way or simply rub you the wrong way. Rereading your narrative of Game 1, it does sound like TB is way off the mark, maybe it's something that commonly occurs from TB (I never personally noticed, but I don't pay attention to the narration to that extent), maybe your cherry-picking here and simply ignoring what is accepted or normal of a caster to say and purely making a streamline straight towards a caster's faults.
To sum it up as the preservation of E-Sports is to put on a pedestal it should never be on. E-Sports is for everyone. A caster can be anyone, do you blame TB for making poor remarks and calls on the game or do we blame IPL for selecting someone potentially inadequate for these high-caliber play.
Why do we have to blame anyone? Why do we need to have this entitled view that grants the best of the best of the best of everything? Mute the sound, cross your legs and enjoy the games with your own narration. You don't have to go out of your way to avoid something, but don't make it an issue that demands that TB accept his faults, realize his mistakes (which are unintentional) and retire from casting.
P.S: Do you have a vid. of this match (#1) btw? Also, please post Game 2 for a more concrete idea of what you're trying to say.
Edit: I probably drew your entire blog post out of proportion, feel free to correct me and I'll make some proper edits
Heh I remember our little back and forth in PM's about HD's lack of knowledge its funny cause hes a masters player too he i just really ignorant about other races, its actually alot better when painuser is there to correct him but its still hilarious to watch someone make so many blatant mistakes in a cast. HD i think is the worst culprit because I think that he thinks he knows alot so he will just spout off about it. At least TB admits he isnt aware of all the intricacies of the game and says it something hes working on.
Either way they both piss me off in their own right TB more so in IPL because hes solo casting and there is no one to call him on his shit.
Whenever TB casts, he always puts a disclaimer that this is for more amateur or debutante viewers, which is a sort of double-play: It excuses him from making any mistakes because of his equal low [amateur] ranking in the actual ladder and it allows him to follow with more play-by-play rather than extending to something a bit more in-depth or beyond his scope of [current] knowledge. Whether he intentionally tries to learn the game a bit farther despite his ranking, one couldn't say (I always think optimistically and assume so). IF he says he's working on it, good for him!
Yeah, the solo-casting is a poor idea, but then again, duo-casting should be more to compliment one another, not for fact-checking [I know what you really meant, I just wanted my last-line to be witty].
On April 25 2011 17:29 Megaliskuu wrote: I think the biggest offense ever was Dapollo casting bw at wcg last year. Nearly ruined FvJ for me .
haha dude, dapollo was bad, but the cs commentator dude with him was the real problem. The sheer amount of logical fallacies mixed with funny names for units was literally mind blowing. i recommend everyone should go watch the fvj vods from wcg holy shit it was funny
We should demand nothing but the best if we truly do want eSports to become respected globally
Who's we?
I like TB and overlook his mistakes because so long as he attracts more viewers, interested parties and drums up more popularity for events, the legs of ESports can stand on their own.
No offense, but I am really tired of hearing people wave the flag of E-Sports like it's a prideful patriotic notion that must be upheld in the name of Freedom, Liberty and the Sanctum of a prospering sport that strived for anyone and everyone to at least tune in or get at least a clue of what it is.
Maybe I'm tired, but I really dislike this blog post. Maybe I'm bias towards liking TB? Maybe I'm just becoming so tired of hearing "FOR ESPORTS, WE MUST HAVE RIGID XYZ STANDARDS AND DEMANDS TO PRESERVE THE LIFE OF THIS PROSPERING CONCEPT OF COMPETITIVE NATURE"
I talked to E-Sports, he told me the more the merrier and that he's a big fucking boy.
I'm not denying some people should do their homework [I'm looking at you; HDStarcraft], but be honest; just say you don't like certain casters because they either make unintelligible remarks, go at the game/match the wrong way or simply rub you the wrong way. Rereading your narrative of Game 1, it does sound like TB is way off the mark, maybe it's something that commonly occurs from TB (I never personally noticed, but I don't pay attention to the narration to that extent), maybe your cherry-picking here and simply ignoring what is accepted or normal of a caster to say and purely making a streamline straight towards a caster's faults.
To sum it up as the preservation of E-Sports is to put on a pedestal it should never be on. E-Sports is for everyone. A caster can be anyone, do you blame TB for making poor remarks and calls on the game or do we blame IPL for selecting someone potentially inadequate for these high-caliber play.
Why do we have to blame anyone? Why do we need to have this entitled view that grants the best of the best of the best of everything? Mute the sound, cross your legs and enjoy the games with your own narration. You don't have to go out of your way to avoid something, but don't make it an issue that demands that TB accept his faults, realize his mistakes (which are unintentional) and retire from casting.
P.S: Do you have a vid. of this match (#1) btw? Also, please post Game 2 for a more concrete idea of what you're trying to say.
Edit: I probably drew your entire blog post out of proportion, feel free to correct me and I'll make some proper edits
Heh I remember our little back and forth in PM's about HD's lack of knowledge its funny cause hes a masters player too he i just really ignorant about other races, its actually alot better when painuser is there to correct him but its still hilarious to watch someone make so many blatant mistakes in a cast. HD i think is the worst culprit because I think that he thinks he knows alot so he will just spout off about it. At least TB admits he isnt aware of all the intricacies of the game and says it something hes working on.
Either way they both piss me off in their own right TB more so in IPL because hes solo casting and there is no one to call him on his shit.
Whenever TB casts, he always puts a disclaimer that this is for more amateur or debutante viewers, which is a sort of double-play: It excuses him from making any mistakes because of his equal low [amateur] ranking in the actual ladder and it allows him to follow with more play-by-play rather than extending to something a bit more in-depth or beyond his scope of [current] knowledge. Whether he intentionally tries to learn the game a bit farther despite his ranking, one couldn't say (I always think optimistically and assume so). IF he says he's working on it, good for him!
Yeah, the solo-casting is a poor idea, but then again, duo-casting should be more to compliment one another, not for fact-checking [I know what you really meant, I just wanted my last-line to be witty].
"Indeed."
TB has a good excitable casting voice but little game knowledge to back it up. Duo-casting is perfect for him, because he is good for superficial play by play with analysis done by the partner. This is the same as usual sport casting, where there is the play by play (Al Michaels, Bob Costas) announcer and the more experienced analytical partner (Madden, Steve Kerr).. etc. Whenever he settles with a good casting partner I can start listening to him again, but until then I'm going to keep trying to ignore what he says and just focus on the game and tone of voice..
TotalBiscuit does his thing, he does strict play by play aimed at people who don't know the game and have no interest in doing so, they just want to be entertained. Quite a lot of people enjoy this type of casting, see HD's and Husky's subscriber numbers. Just because you have a (mis)conception of what the best kind of casting is does not mean everyone thinks that way. I do like a more analytical approach myself, but TB was hired by IPL to do his thing and nothing else, to please their casual IGN readers. If anything, your complaint should be with IPL.
Picking apart TB's analysis of the game is fucking retarded and redundant, sorry.
You can actually filter the caster you would like to hear on IPL's site, a pretty cool feature i might add.
Duo-casting is perfect for him, because he is good for superficial play by play with analysis done by the partner.
You still need good game knowledge if you're doing play by play. It's much easier to get excited when you understand the consequences of each move a player makes, and genuine excitement is what makes a great caster.
That's why Artosis is so good. He gets excited over the tiniest things, but it makes you get excited too because his excitement is palpable.
Most people who watch SC2 want to be entertained, not lectured and given ANOTHER analysis why doing X means Y.
Many of us go to school or to work where we are lectured how to do what on a daily basis, i just want to chill and enjoy watching SC2.
Personally it is getting pretty tiring watching a tournament then after a game spending 10 whole minutes watching 2 people go through the game as if we really need to recreate the entire match from the first scouting probe to the last unit dying.
That is why i enjoy Khaldor, Rotterdam and TB lately, just the cast the bloody games and lets have fun
Every tournament should have at least two live casters. As DjWheat pointed out it's almost impossible for one person to do a good job- there's just too much going on. That's why the Koreans always use three casters.
Something to note: You are demanding pro level analysis equal to why basketball commentators are able to disect things. There's a few things different from these people and many casters. They are experts at their craft, usually educated at a university and paid immensely well. They are recruited among many who wish and dream for their job.
For starcraft? There's tons of aspiring commentators. But how many have the education, the broadcasting knowledge, the game knowledge at the level of a coach or even at the level of Artosis. There is very few. To be knowledge about the game it's more important to be good at it more than other sports.
Play by Play requires so little game knowledge, and for that reason the other characteristics of a caster shine out more: Enthusiasm, tone of voice, and in general good speech. This is why casters like TB, catspajamas are along these lines.
I listen to all commentary and pretty much the most analytical ones are Artosis, Painuser, Chill and day9 so far. Even HDstarcraft has pretty good analysis: For example in the game spades vs EGincontrol. HD said that because incontrols voidray push failed, he was behind, painuser disagreed saying EGincontrol did enough dmg. HD turned out to be right, but to be fair he's a decent masters player. Psy is also a very good caster. Husky probably has better analysis than TB. It makes sense, Husky is a diamond player and TB is like gold level. What can we take from this: Level of Analysis = Level of game skill. However we shouldn't completely discredit a caster just because of skill level.
Casting... I wish i could be given a grant to study how starcraft 2 casting differs form other types of casting and what most people would enjoy, what styles is most effective, which things to mention and which things not to mention, the most proper way to do introductions. korean style vs english style, analytical vs play by play, casting is a complex part of the starcraft 2 scene and for now the best we can do is just enjoy what we are given and hope it improves in the future.
For the record the best casting duo is probably tastosis: the most professional, prepared, analytical with play by play, excitement. These guys meet together before GSL days to talk about their future cast, something very important.
Wow, people are serious. If you know the casters are making mistakes then your game knowledge is obviously good enough that you know what is going on. What's the problem? chill out
Although the general bad casting theme has been beaten to death over and over, the underlying questions still haven't been adressed as much. To get it out of the way, I'm not about personal preference, which often does get folded into the mix. That is as pointless a discussions as debating why certain icecream flavors reign supreme over others, matters of taste. But it happens as it is difficult to seperate those out. I don't mind TB and HD doing their thing on youtube, in fact it probably is a good thing (insert "for the good of all eSport" phrase). But maybe, just maybe once they are hooked viewers want a little bit more. So if it is a premier tournament or league, i feel it shouldn't go overbord to cater to new viewers (read nubs). I assume in professional sports, commentators don't constantly explain every basic thing (something that even annoys me in day9 commentary sometimes / it's not a daily). People watching the IPL on stream or vod most likely don' get there by accident, it ain't youtube, which is a fine place for getting new people in. Wheat is fine by me when paired with someone analytical who provides more insight into the game, but solo? Haven't seen much of it but I guess for the same reason HD in conjunction with Painuser is adequate. Given the solo turns by Wheat, HD and TB (whose casting I couldn't stand even if it had acceptable quality, but that is entirely personal taste), I barely watched IPL for longer than a few minutes. Wouldn't have thought I am demanding that much. TSL Casting is for example in my opinion all around solid (sure a little biased by taste). I much preferred other combinations, but even Wheat and Husky kinda worked, at least I don't remember it as too bad, but its been a while. And I don't care or need to know at what level somebody plays the game, it's a likely predictor of game knowledge, but not a necessity. Even bronze league random players could be great analytical Casters, IF they put in the work, watch a lot,do play, analyse and stay on top of the meta game. They have to know how it works, maybe even how it feels; but they don't need stellar mechanics, split second decision making and the drive to win. Of course all of that comes a lot easier to a pro player, but they need some additional skills to be good commentators aswell.
(tl;dr)
Should proleagues/big tournaments have casting more targeted at regular viewers, or should it be for "youtube* audiences" for the good of esports (growth)? Is it because of the infancy of the field / the niche market? When do you expect it to change?
Oh and I sooo feel you regarding the rocks on Blistering...
*not hating on youtube,I enjoy some regular PsY myself (personal taste). Merely a word to sum-up the more accesible sc2 content.
On April 25 2011 17:29 Megaliskuu wrote: I think the biggest offense ever was Dapollo casting bw at wcg last year. Nearly ruined FvJ for me .
Oh god yes, that was bad. I find it annoying when casters who know nothing about bw try to talk about sc2 stuff in relation to bw and just get it catastrophically wrong. The main problem I find with SC2 casting is that commentators for big events sometimes aren't doing enough research into whose playing. They often don't know about playing styles, strong and weak match ups, recent results etc. As a result we just end up with really generic comments like "this guy is soooo good. He beat this guy once. And his opponent is also sooo good" and the whole beginning of the match is filled with pointless unspecific speculative comments like "he could do this *insert overly general idea* but we're going to have to wait and see". Wow this turned into a bit of a rant, but it really does annoy me!
I really have a difficult time enjoying any caster who have never invested much effort into playing the game itself. Starcraft is a game with such depth to strategy and subtlety that to cast it without a strong knowledge of these things is a real fault on the caster behalf. Highlighting the intricacies of the game brings it alive. Its the difference between:
"Explosions and bullets tearing through the opponent and terran wins that battle convincingly" to "Oh my god, terran executed x strategical maneuvering perfectly, leading to y during the battle, and won convincingly because of it"
Understanding the foresight and execution of high level players should the essential core to any cast. Obviously slip ups or mischaracterizations are acceptable, but a caster should be looking to read into a strategy more than simply aggressive or defensive.
Personally, if I was being paid money to cast in front of thousands upon thousands of people, I would spend every free minute learning the game first hand. The respect and legitimacy it brings to a cast is invaluable. Some of my favourite moments in casts come when a caster has first hand experience playing against one of the players they're casting and is able to reference past games and is more competent at dissecting their style.
Obviously I'm not suggesting every caster be at code S level, but for goodness sake, if you're a figure head in the industry, at least get to masters league.
On April 25 2011 17:29 Megaliskuu wrote: I think the biggest offense ever was Dapollo casting bw at wcg last year. Nearly ruined FvJ for me .
haha dude, dapollo was bad, but the cs commentator dude with him was the real problem. The sheer amount of logical fallacies mixed with funny names for units was literally mind blowing. i recommend everyone should go watch the fvj vods from wcg holy shit it was funny
Atleast most casters and trying learning and making a effort. Most sports casters have been doing it for years. As you get older you cast better, at-least to a point.
Look at this Guy Rick Jeanneret He is my Hockey's team Commentary. Hes probably the most entertaining to listen to in any sport.
On April 25 2011 20:17 Dali. wrote: I really have a difficult time enjoying any caster who have never invested much effort into playing the game itself. Starcraft is a game with such depth to strategy and subtlety that to cast it without a strong knowledge of these things is a real fault on the caster behalf. Highlighting the intricacies of the game brings it alive. Its the difference between:
"Explosions and bullets tearing through the opponent and terran wins that battle convincingly" to "Oh my god, terran executed x strategical maneuvering perfectly, leading to y during the battle, and won convincingly because of it"
Understanding the foresight and execution of high level players should the essential core to any cast. Obviously slip ups or mischaracterizations are acceptable, but a caster should be looking to read into a strategy more than simply aggressive or defensive.
Personally, if I was being paid money to cast in front of thousands upon thousands of people, I would spend every free minute learning the game first hand. The respect and legitimacy it brings to a cast is invaluable. Some of my favourite moments in casts come when a caster has first hand experience playing against one of the players they're casting and is able to reference past games and is more competent at dissecting their style.
Obviously I'm not suggesting every caster be at code S level, but for goodness sake, if you're a figure head in the industry, at least get to masters league.
Sup brosef :D
Agree with all of that. Sure, if you're a caster who is focusing on entertainment value/play by play rather than intense analysis then you don't need an Artosis level of knowledge, but could it make your casting any worse? Obviously not. Knowing more can only make your casting better, and thus any serious caster should be trying to learn the game as best they can.
There's definitely no excuse for having an understanding as limited as TB's. SC2 is a real-time-strategy game, and if TB has no interest in furthering his understanding of the strategy component (which he has said, or at least implied, himself) then you have to doubt his passion for the game.
TotalBiscuit is awesome. Sure, he dosent know that much about the game but he was able to get my friends who had never heard of or played Starcraft into the game. If it was Artosis or Day[9] casting they wouldn't have understood half the things they are talking plus TBs voice makes the game alot more exciting and to be honest they are the kind of people we need coming through the scene, people who didn't even know games were played competitively.
When i watch a tournament or youtube cast, i don't want to learn. I want to have some fun watching it, relax, maybe laugh a little and in general, just have a good time. I don't care why Player X did Y, most of it i can see myself.
I like TotalBiscuit, Husky, Psy, Ahnaris and a lot of other casters because they are fun to listen to and have a good casting voice. I actually do not like the casting of Day[9]. I watch almost every Daily because there is always something to take away from it, but i don't want someone teaching me when i want to have fun.
Maybe every tournament should have 2 streams, one with an exciting caster, one with an analytic caster, then everyone will be happy (and we could compare which caster the people prefer).
It's just preferences... don't like it, don't watch it/mute it, download the replays. There is so much going on in SC2 at all times, there is often another tournament running at the same time.
On April 25 2011 21:21 Morfildur wrote: Maybe every tournament should have 2 streams, one with an exciting caster, one with an analytic caster, then everyone will be happy (and we could compare which caster the people prefer).
Does it really have to be exciting or analytical? Trying not to be presumptuous, but you might have misunderstood the blog/OP. As I understood and what I share, he doesn't want everything explained but would like casters to understand the game, so they aren't blabbering exciting nonsense all the time. I'd ad that you can have all the entertainment and should, but supposed proleagues or top tier tournaments should cater to their prime audience (people who at least got the basics already down and expect the a more in-depth understanding from a commentator while still being exciting, offering diffrent flavors of casting, not necessarily analytical).
I find it hard to listen to TB's casts, I don't think it's funny or entertaining informative or...well anything but a mild annoyance. The fact that he casts the games of players I like always irritates me. I just don't get it.
But other people get it. Lots of other people get it, like it, find it both funny and entertaining. So I guess I have to suck it up and listen to TotalBiscuit.
TB is sounding more and more like a caricature of a real caster. His exaggerated accent, the blatant misinformation that comes out of his mouth, his recent strange fascination with violence and bloodshed (as if he were casting Call of Duty or something) the bizarre inflection he puts on random words.
I don't even get the impression I am listening to an actual person doing their best to cast a game anymore. To me he's become this cartoon character who just shouts things out for the duration of a given game.
I know, I am well beyond the point of being accused of grand hatery, but the guy seems way more interested in furthering his gimmick than truly being the sc2 equivalent of a sports broadcaster. I don't know what sports he watches, but I have never heard any commentators so absolutely focused on their own gimmicks and not the actual sport/game in question.
I think he is actually quite good outside of casting games. Those weekly steam deal videos I watched from beginning to end. I don't have an interest in World of Warcraft videos but I am sure those are just as good. My issue is he seems to put the proliferation of his wacky voice and zany phrases over the game and for me it's rapidly approaching parody.
I don't understand why people are confusing their opinion with the sole way things have to be.
I really like TotalBiscuit's casting and I don't like you (OP) [I'm making a lot of money with my Philosophy degree FYI, I would be great at casting if I tried, I'm diamond but I'd by masters if I had time, lol]. Notice how I didn't open a blog explaining how you had to change your posting tone? That's because it's my personal opinion, not some universal barometer for quality.
On April 25 2011 21:21 Morfildur wrote: Maybe every tournament should have 2 streams, one with an exciting caster, one with an analytic caster, then everyone will be happy (and we could compare which caster the people prefer).
Does it really have to be exciting or analytical? Trying not to be presumptuous, but you might have misunderstood the blog/OP. As I understood and what I share, he doesn't want everything explained but would like casters to understand the game, so they aren't blabbering exciting nonsense all the time. I'd ad that you can have all the entertainment and should, but supposed proleagues or top tier tournaments should cater to their prime audience (people who at least got the basics already down and expect the a more in-depth understanding from a commentator while still being exciting, offering diffrent flavors of casting, not necessarily analytical).
Why are you so sure the prime audience are those that want in-depth commentating and people that care about the game understanding of the commentators?
I don't see TotalBiscuit saying nonesense all the time. Yeah, he makes mistakes, so does every caster, but why care so much? He is fun to listen to and i'd love it if he would cast more tournaments.
On the other hand, i hate all that caster-hate anyways. People don't get youtube subscribers because they are bad or stupid (otherwise i would have a million subscribers instead of 2 :p) and tournaments don't recruit casters purely by subscriber numbers (otherwise Husky would cast every tournament out there and Day[9] would never get to cast any), they also think about which audience they want to cater to. TotalBiscuit gets recruited for tournaments that target a " most are new to the game" audience, Day[9] or Tastosis for the "probably only people that are into the game anyways will ever watch it" tournaments.
I want to use this blog to talk about another point that isn't directly related: Casting and producing a VOD is much more hectic than sitting at your home and watching one.
I'll give you the most relevant example that I personally have. When we're commentating TSL, I'm not just watching the game, I'm often times reading other things on my monitor and trying to spend effort syncing up the replay. I'm frantically scrolling around looking for things to talk about. I'm occasionally getting messages from Hot_Bid and sometimes alt-tabbed looking at relevant webpages, gathering information. I find it impossible to have a full sense of the game's current state while doing all this. On top of this, I'm trying to listen to my co-commentator so I can play off his words and avoid repeating his statements.
My point isn't that commentating is so difficult, it's that doing many things at once makes you more likely to make mistakes or miss things.
Now, take all that and multiply it by 3 for what TotalBiscuit is doing in that game. He's also running the camera and doesn't have a cocaster. That's super important. When you aren't running the camera and have a cocaster, you can use the downtime to run around and update yourself on the current state of the game. When you don't have a cocaster, you have to keep talking. Always.
Sometimes it's my turn to talk and I don't have shit to say. Like I don't have any idea at all what I want to talk about when my cocommentator stops. So I just start talking and go with it. Sometimes I trap myself into contradicting myself and, in rare situations, I don't even believe in what I just said when it's finished. I remember one specific in the TLOpens, Morrow went for 14 Pool instead of expansion Hatchery and I explained how the economics of it weren't that bad. The next match Nerchio went 15 Hatchery and I explained how it was huge to get that economy going. The point is, if I had time to talk it through and explain what I meant I could have gotten to a point without contradiction, but I never had the time to get there.
I don't think these points are entirely relevant to TotalBiscuit. I think he's pretty bad at the game. But if you sat him down and asked him to write a document about the first 7 minutes of the game on Xel'Naga Caverns, I'm sure it would be strategically accurate and without logical fallacies. When you have to talk and talk and talk, these kinds of things are expected.
Now, if you don't like TB's focus on play-by-play and excitement while sacrificing analysis, that's fantastic, but keep it to yourself. Don't open a Blog called "I don't like this one person" listing all the ways they fucked up and how they have to fit into some mold you just invented.
You used ESPN ex-players and ex-coaches as an example.
Tell me another sport where they commentate at a pace like SC2? The closest I can think of is the UFC where Joe Rogan isn't talking for 90% of the broadcast.
I want to use this blog to talk about another point that isn't directly related: Casting and producing a VOD is much more hectic than sitting at your home and watching one.
I'll give you the most relevant example that I personally have. When we're commentating TSL, I'm not just watching the game, I'm often times reading other things on my monitor and trying to spend effort syncing up the replay. I'm frantically scrolling around looking for things to talk about. I'm occasionally getting messages from Hot_Bid and sometimes alt-tabbed looking at relevant webpages, gathering information. I find it impossible to have a full sense of the game's current state while doing all this. On top of this, I'm trying to listen to my co-commentator so I can play off his words and avoid repeating his statements.
My point isn't that commentating is so difficult, it's that doing many things at once makes you more likely to make mistakes or miss things.
Now, take all that and multiply it by 3 for what TotalBiscuit is doing in that game. He's also running the camera and doesn't have a cocaster. That's super important. When you aren't running the camera and have a cocaster, you can use the downtime to run around and update yourself on the current state of the game. When you don't have a cocaster, you have to keep talking. Always.
Sometimes it's my turn to talk and I don't have shit to say. Like I don't have any idea at all what I want to talk about when my cocommentator stops. So I just start talking and go with it. Sometimes I trap myself into contradicting myself and, in rare situations, I don't even believe in what I just said when it's finished. I remember one specific in the TLOpens, Morrow went for 14 Pool instead of expansion Hatchery and I explained how the economics of it weren't that bad. The next match Nerchio went 15 Hatchery and I explained how it was huge to get that economy going. The point is, if I had time to talk it through and explain what I meant I could have gotten to a point without contradiction, but I never had the time to get there.
I don't think these points are entirely relevant to TotalBiscuit. I think he's pretty bad at the game. But if you sat him down and asked him to write a document about the first 7 minutes of the game on Xel'Naga Caverns, I'm sure it would be strategically accurate and without logical fallacies. When you have to talk and talk and talk, these kinds of things are expected.
Now, if you don't like TB's focus on play-by-play and excitement while sacrificing analysis, that's fantastic, but keep it to yourself. Don't open a Blog called "I don't like this one person" listing all the ways they fucked up and how they have to fit into some mold you just invented.
It's interesting to see how most casters support each other, no signs for rivalry at all. I don't know of any caster disliking any other, even if they theoretically might steal views, subscribers, fans, tournament contracts, etc.
Why can't the viewers do the same and just respect any caster for helping E-Sports and Starcraft 2 grow, every caster in his own way :-(
I don't like Totalbiscuit that much as in I don't like his videos and I'm not interested in watching his streams. I have nothing against him as a person before some fanboy/girl jumps on me about it.
As for when I heard he was doing IPL I was a bit miffed but after watching the Idra game when it was streamed, it wasn't that bad. My only real criticism is that he talks way too fast for it all to be understandable. I had a headache by the time the game ended just trying to work out what he was saying and it was getting to the point where I was considering muting and seeing how much of my SC knowledge could tell me what was going on.
If he slowed down his talking he might actually do better.
i'd just like to say that i feel insightful + analytical casting and entertaining casting is not mutually exclusive. It is up to the insightful casters not to bore the viewers to death as well as the responsibility of play by play casters to pick up and explain things that might not be apparent to the naked eye. There is a reason Artosis is deemed the deity of casting.
On April 25 2011 20:17 Dali. wrote: I really have a difficult time enjoying any caster who have never invested much effort into playing the game itself. Starcraft is a game with such depth to strategy and subtlety that to cast it without a strong knowledge of these things is a real fault on the caster behalf. Highlighting the intricacies of the game brings it alive. Its the difference between:
"Explosions and bullets tearing through the opponent and terran wins that battle convincingly" to "Oh my god, terran executed x strategical maneuvering perfectly, leading to y during the battle, and won convincingly because of it"
Understanding the foresight and execution of high level players should the essential core to any cast. Obviously slip ups or mischaracterizations are acceptable, but a caster should be looking to read into a strategy more than simply aggressive or defensive.
Personally, if I was being paid money to cast in front of thousands upon thousands of people, I would spend every free minute learning the game first hand. The respect and legitimacy it brings to a cast is invaluable. Some of my favourite moments in casts come when a caster has first hand experience playing against one of the players they're casting and is able to reference past games and is more competent at dissecting their style.
Obviously I'm not suggesting every caster be at code S level, but for goodness sake, if you're a figure head in the industry, at least get to masters league.
Sup brosef :D
Agree with all of that. Sure, if you're a caster who is focusing on entertainment value/play by play rather than intense analysis then you don't need an Artosis level of knowledge, but could it make your casting any worse? Obviously not. Knowing more can only make your casting better, and thus any serious caster should be trying to learn the game as best they can.
There's definitely no excuse for having an understanding as limited as TB's. SC2 is a real-time-strategy game, and if TB has no interest in furthering his understanding of the strategy component (which he has said, or at least implied, himself) then you have to doubt his passion for the game.
Do you work this hard at your job? I don't. I know the code and I can reference maybe a dozen sections, but I don't go home at night to reread the code and study drawings.
Why is Starcraft commentary different than any other job?
I have to agree with the OP What's the point of casting when you're saying the wrong things all the time? You might as well turn on NPR
@Chill Nobody said casting was easy and mistakes are inevitable, but there's a point at which your commentary ceases to be useful. If he can write down a correct analysis in the game but can't do any correct analysis in real time then why is he doing solo casting for one of the bigger leagues?
On April 25 2011 20:17 Dali. wrote: I really have a difficult time enjoying any caster who have never invested much effort into playing the game itself. Starcraft is a game with such depth to strategy and subtlety that to cast it without a strong knowledge of these things is a real fault on the caster behalf. Highlighting the intricacies of the game brings it alive. Its the difference between:
"Explosions and bullets tearing through the opponent and terran wins that battle convincingly" to "Oh my god, terran executed x strategical maneuvering perfectly, leading to y during the battle, and won convincingly because of it"
Understanding the foresight and execution of high level players should the essential core to any cast. Obviously slip ups or mischaracterizations are acceptable, but a caster should be looking to read into a strategy more than simply aggressive or defensive.
Personally, if I was being paid money to cast in front of thousands upon thousands of people, I would spend every free minute learning the game first hand. The respect and legitimacy it brings to a cast is invaluable. Some of my favourite moments in casts come when a caster has first hand experience playing against one of the players they're casting and is able to reference past games and is more competent at dissecting their style.
Obviously I'm not suggesting every caster be at code S level, but for goodness sake, if you're a figure head in the industry, at least get to masters league.
Sup brosef :D
Agree with all of that. Sure, if you're a caster who is focusing on entertainment value/play by play rather than intense analysis then you don't need an Artosis level of knowledge, but could it make your casting any worse? Obviously not. Knowing more can only make your casting better, and thus any serious caster should be trying to learn the game as best they can.
There's definitely no excuse for having an understanding as limited as TB's. SC2 is a real-time-strategy game, and if TB has no interest in furthering his understanding of the strategy component (which he has said, or at least implied, himself) then you have to doubt his passion for the game.
Do you work this hard at your job? I don't. I know the code and I can reference maybe a dozen sections, but I don't go home at night to reread the code and study drawings.
Why is Starcraft commentary different than any other job?
How hard he works is entirely up to him. I don't care. My only point was that if this is his passion and he can be better, why not be better? Why not spend even just 30 minutes a day really trying to learn the game?
The point has been made that his casting is not supposed to be analytical, but that doesn't mean there is no analysis. Play by play still requires some amount of analysis, and TB is often quite off the mark. I'm not saying that he needs to analyse more, only that he should attempt to be on point with the analysis he does make.
I don't see how you can argue with that. I'm not saying he's a terrible caster. Sure, he's not my cup of tea but that has nothing to do with it. It's constructive criticism and that's it. He can take it or leave it.
On April 25 2011 19:23 HwangjaeTerran wrote: Wow, people are serious. If you know the casters are making mistakes then your game knowledge is obviously good enough that you know what is going on. What's the problem? chill out
Nail on the coffin. 100 points for this guy.
I woke up today thinking I was too harsh, but it looks everyone else went the extra mile :3
On April 25 2011 23:37 hugman wrote: I have to agree with the OP What's the point of casting when you're saying the wrong things all the time? You might as well turn on NPR
@Chill Nobody said casting was easy and mistakes are inevitable, but there's a point at which your commentary ceases to be useful. If he can write down a correct analysis in the game but can't do any correct analysis in real time then why is he doing solo casting for one of the bigger leagues?
This is the problem I have with people on this forum: They don't follow the chain of command of business and blame people who aren't to blame.
1. If TB isn't getting work, then he needs to change his style. If could get more work, then maybe he should consider changing his style. At some point, he will experience diminishing returns between effort/income and should be comfortable.
2. If tournaments aren't getting views, then they need to change their commentators. If they could get more views, then maybe they should consider changing their commentators. At some point, they will experience diminishing returns between pay/viewship increase and should be comfortable.
3. If you don't like a tournament, then you shouldn't watch it.
Okay, so following this, I can answer your question:
Q: If he can write down a correct analysis in the game but can't do any correct analysis in real time then why is he doing solo casting for one of the bigger leagues? A: Because one of the bigger leagues hired him.
The question you meant to ask is why did one of the bigger leagues hire him, and that would be a complicated discussion involving their company's direction and goals with the league. I can't answer that and neither can you.
On April 25 2011 20:17 Dali. wrote: I really have a difficult time enjoying any caster who have never invested much effort into playing the game itself. Starcraft is a game with such depth to strategy and subtlety that to cast it without a strong knowledge of these things is a real fault on the caster behalf. Highlighting the intricacies of the game brings it alive. Its the difference between:
"Explosions and bullets tearing through the opponent and terran wins that battle convincingly" to "Oh my god, terran executed x strategical maneuvering perfectly, leading to y during the battle, and won convincingly because of it"
Understanding the foresight and execution of high level players should the essential core to any cast. Obviously slip ups or mischaracterizations are acceptable, but a caster should be looking to read into a strategy more than simply aggressive or defensive.
Personally, if I was being paid money to cast in front of thousands upon thousands of people, I would spend every free minute learning the game first hand. The respect and legitimacy it brings to a cast is invaluable. Some of my favourite moments in casts come when a caster has first hand experience playing against one of the players they're casting and is able to reference past games and is more competent at dissecting their style.
Obviously I'm not suggesting every caster be at code S level, but for goodness sake, if you're a figure head in the industry, at least get to masters league.
Sup brosef :D
Agree with all of that. Sure, if you're a caster who is focusing on entertainment value/play by play rather than intense analysis then you don't need an Artosis level of knowledge, but could it make your casting any worse? Obviously not. Knowing more can only make your casting better, and thus any serious caster should be trying to learn the game as best they can.
There's definitely no excuse for having an understanding as limited as TB's. SC2 is a real-time-strategy game, and if TB has no interest in furthering his understanding of the strategy component (which he has said, or at least implied, himself) then you have to doubt his passion for the game.
Do you work this hard at your job? I don't. I know the code and I can reference maybe a dozen sections, but I don't go home at night to reread the code and study drawings.
Why is Starcraft commentary different than any other job?
How hard he works is entirely up to him. I don't care. My only point was that if this is his passion and he can be better, why not be better? Why not spend even just 30 minutes a day really trying to learn the game?
Why are you telling someone how to live their life? It's actually absurd. Why not spend 30 minutes a day reading a new book? Why not spend 30 minutes a day trying to get a more attractive girlfriend. Why not spend 30 minutes a day trying to get a better job? Why not spend 30 minutes a day doing exercise?
Like I said, I go based on the assumption that he is trying to improve, like all people who want to get better at their job and thus draw in more interest, people and opportunities.
Not sure why you guys think otherwise, because it's not visible or seen yet/immediately?
When I question him casting games for IGN I'm not questioning his personal decision to work with IGN, I thought that was obvious. I don't mean that TB should turn down job offers because people on TL don't like him, that would be ridiculous, what I mean is that I wish IGN hadn't hired him as a solo caster.
I don't see why people shouldn't voice their criticisms. You can disagree with the way people do it (what happened with Kelly for example), but it's not inherently wrong to say you don't like an aspect of a league's production. Likewise it's not an outlandish request to ask of a caster to improve when said caster says things that are incorrect alarmingly often.
Consistently being wrong in your analysis isn't that much different from consistently being wrong in your play-by-play, it's just not as obvious to the uneducated viewer. Sure, maybe TB attracts a lot of viewers for IGN and it's the right choice to have him cast, but we can still disagree with that from our own perspective.
edit: also, I'm not listening to his commentary because I don't like it, but the "if you don't like it don't watch it"-argument is silly. They want me to watch, if there's something I don't like it benefits them if I voice my criticisms.
First of all IGN has stated that the single-caster system is only for season 1, because it's a technical trial tournament.
Second, my friends who I can randomly get to watch an SC2 broadcast don't care for analytical commentary, they love the excitement, the words per minute, and that sexy accent. And for better or for worse, I have more friends who prefer that over semi-exciting but informative casting because, guess what, they don't know anything about the game and they don't care. They just want 30 minutes of time-killing.
Read the OP. It's his opinion, but then he presses it with "For the preservation of E-Sports". As if his views are for the nobler cause of the entity of E-Sports.
On April 26 2011 02:02 EvilTeletubby wrote: I love it when Chill gets all excited.
Maybe he needs a new spoof-name for these moments. He has "Moderate temperature" for his unbiased commentaries, now we need "Boiling Over" for when he gets heated up.
On April 26 2011 01:53 hugman wrote: When I question him casting games for IGN I'm not questioning his personal decision to work with IGN, I thought that was obvious. I don't mean that TB should turn down job offers because people on TL don't like him, that would be ridiculous, what I mean is that I wish IGN hadn't hired him as a solo caster.
I don't see why people shouldn't voice their criticisms. You can disagree with the way people do it (what happened with Kelly for example), but it's not inherently wrong to say you don't like an aspect of a league's production. Likewise it's not an outlandish request to ask of a caster to improve when said caster says things that are incorrect alarmingly often.
Consistently being wrong in your analysis isn't that much different from consistently being wrong in your play-by-play, it's just not as obvious to the uneducated viewer. Sure, maybe TB attracts a lot of viewers for IGN and it's the right choice to have him cast, but we can still disagree with that from our own perspective.
edit: also, I'm not listening to his commentary because I don't like it, but the "if you don't like it don't watch it"-argument is silly. They want me to watch, if there's something I don't like it benefits them if I voice my criticisms.
I have no problems whatsoever about people voicing their critcisms. They should do it freely and casters should accept the feedback freely.
What I do have a problem with, is people voicing their criticisms as if there is some golden standard casters have deviated from. You like analytical commentators and TB doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about at a deep level often times. It's great to make that known; however, it's not acceptable to say that he needs to learn the game because of of some invisible requirement or furthering esports reasoning. You would just like it if he learned the game more. I happen to like him as is. Since these are both subjective opinions, we're both right.
Unless you are a paid consultant, I don't know why you would watch something you can't stand to give feedback. That's a pretty selfless act. When I don't like something, I turn it off or watch it to make fun of it. I don't watch it to give constructive criticism to the league in hopes that they change the entire league based on my feedback.
To be clear, TotalBiscuit sounds like a really great, funny guy. As a caster, however, I just find him hard to listen to on the principal that a lot of what he says is misinformation and misunderstanding, and apparently I'm not the only one that is bothered by it.
I don't believe I necessarily demanded anything. If anything, I simply flamed TB for a bit, then ranted about how I felt. The way I feel is that people should strive to be better, and that being better is what eSports needs right now.
As another person commented, bullets ripping through flesh is great for some things, but marines ripping through the unarmored Unit X seems to have more value. You can think otherwise, and I never said that anyone couldn't. My view of eSports is that the casters who have already been mentioned as being a cut above the rest are doing more for the overall experience. I can't help but feel that if I had a bigger name, or a higher post count, that people like Chill wouldn't come at me (bro) so hard.
You don't like me, Chill? I'm not really the biggest fan of you, but you don't tell people blatantly incorrect things. If people don't want to put in the work, then they won't. I did not say that you cannot cast any tournament whatsoever if you are not high masters (although I'd love an alternate stream, as another person mentioned). I did not say that IGN is a terrible company for hiring TB (and others).
Honestly, many of the posts on here act as if I am the actual voice of the progression of eSports. I did post this in the Blog section, and I really have zero pull in the community other than an ability to write a strongly worded email to sponsors, if I so choose. Who gives a fuck if I think TB and others should be held to a higher standard? Who gives a fuck what I think the future of eSports holds or is best served by? Apparently people with names as big as Chill. You say that your problem is with people voicing opinions as if there is "some golden standard". Well, I hate to break it to you, but my standard is what it is. If it doesn't apply to you or anyone else in the world, it's still what I will hope for. It is what I will post about in sections on TL such as the motherfucking blog section. I didn't go trouncing in to the tournament forum and start flaming away at the tournament, I didn't start a rally cry to fire TB, and I certainly did not say that my opinion in any way mattered.
What I did do is cry for help. I plead with my fellow Team Liquid readers (who decided on their own to come into the blog section) to hear my cry for better, more accurate, and at least a little more analytical commentary on major tournaments. I welcome your opinion, and I certainly don't recall typing anything saying that people could not have other opinions than mine. Sure, I speak of eSports as something that I hold to a high standard. That is because, as I have said, I see the potential for everyone to get better. Throwing out mass videos for the (mostly) uneducated masses on YouTube is not what I'm complaining about, and I do welcome people to hone their craft in that kind of a setting in my OP. Dislike me all you will, Chill and others, but I'll continue to hold people to a higher standard. It does not mean that I think some people are shit and will never get better. It means that I see the potential in them to be better and sometimes even great.
Chill, your last post just makes you sound like you really couldn't give a shit about anything that doesn't directly affect you. You sound like a sad little boy whose friend got picked on, so now you're here to tell everyone else that they're jerks for saying something. However, you actually point out that people are giving some constructive criticism. If you don't want to improve, go about your business. Your posts in this thread really do seem to indicate that you just want everyone to do whatever, because at least you'll still get to cast TL events, and if anyone wants to watch them, they can. And if they don't, they can go away. Surely that's not how you want people to take your casting, is it? I could have easily blocked non-supporters from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so. A name like yours appearing in my first blog post on TL was not what I was expecting. It shows that the community is actually a very small world after all. However, I believe you either missed something in my post, confused my thoughts with that of others in the thread, and/or really just don't give a shit about what anyone other than yourself is doing in a cast. Dan called you Tasteless yesterday, bro. Shit happens.
I can't help but feel that if I had a bigger name, or a higher post count, that people like Chill wouldn't come at me (bro) so hard.
If you had a higher post count, a bigger name and a longer time here, you'd know that these ideas of yours are false (the idea that people wouldn't come at you if you had a bigger, elder background). Not Chill specifically, the members of the community simply don't hold those prejudices (am I using that word right?). Seniority doesn't validate views or opinions if the support for those views are lop-sided.
You're being criticized for what you say, not who you are or your impact in the community
Honestly, many of the posts on here act as if I am the actual voice of the progression of eSports.
Read your first post all over again. You make a leadership stance with "we" and "for e-sports" and now you're backing off? Don't retract your opinion, it's valid, acceptable and normal. But your approach and reasoning is terrible and your comparison to set a standard is beyond blasphemy. It's just utterly wrong...
Who gives a fuck if I think TB and others should be held to a higher standard? Who gives a fuck what I think the future of eSports holds or is best served by?
Clearly you thought people did otherwise you wouldn't have voiced them and in such a manner too. Now you're being a bit defensive and saying that we shouldn't garner attention or views about your opinion. You started out strong and proud and now you're shrinking your head and saying "why would you care about my views despite the fact that my opinion is of a viewer, one that casters want to accommodate to and enthrall with excitement or understanding of the game. However, being a philosophy major doesn't allow me to connect these dots unfortunately". Come on, connect the dots: everyone is drawing the line, saying, you can have an opinion, just remember it's an opinion and it'll be confronted.
Chill, your last post just makes you sound like you really couldn't give a shit about anything that doesn't directly affect you. You sound like a sad little boy whose friend got picked on, so now you're here to tell everyone else that they're jerks for saying something. However, you actually point out that people are giving some constructive criticism. If you don't want to improve, go about your business. Your posts in this thread really do seem to indicate that you just want everyone to do whatever, because at least you'll still get to cast TL events, and if anyone wants to watch them, they can. And if they don't, they can go away. Surely that's not how you want people to take your casting, is it? I could have easily blocked you from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so. A name like yours appearing in my first blog post on TL was not what I was expecting. It shows that the community is actually a very small world after all. However, I believe you either missed something in my post, confused my thoughts with that of others in the thread, and/or really just don't give a shit about what anyone other than yourself is doing in a cast. Dan called you Tasteless yesterday, bro. Shit happens.
Oh boy.
I think I'll just say that the person who's taking these confrontations personally is the one who should grow up. :x
I could have easily blocked you from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so
You can't block off staff from reading/posting your blog. Sorry.
Can't block staff, thus the post was edited (before I read your post, which quoted the original) to just include a generality. Clearly you'd be one of the first on the list of people to ban, TdL, if I only wanted support.
I can't help but feel that if I had a bigger name, or a higher post count, that people like Chill wouldn't come at me (bro) so hard.
If you had a higher post count, a bigger name and a longer time here, you'd know that these ideas of yours are false (the idea that people wouldn't come at you if you had a bigger, elder background). Not Chill specifically, the members of the community simply don't hold those prejudices (am I using that word right?). Seniority doesn't validate views or opinions if the support for those views are lop-sided.
You're being criticized for what you say, not who you are or your impact in the community
Honestly, many of the posts on here act as if I am the actual voice of the progression of eSports.
Read your first post all over again. You make a leadership stance with "we" and "for e-sports" and now you're backing off? Don't retract your opinion, it's valid, acceptable and normal. But your approach and reasoning is terrible and your comparison to set a standard is beyond blasphemy. It's just utterly wrong... + Show Spoiler +
Who gives a fuck if I think TB and others should be held to a higher standard? Who gives a fuck what I think the future of eSports holds or is best served by?
Clearly you thought people did otherwise you wouldn't have voiced them and in such a manner too. Now you're being a bit defensive and saying that we shouldn't garner attention or views about your opinion. You started out strong and proud and now you're shrinking your head and saying "why would you care about my views despite the fact that my opinion is of a viewer, one that casters want to accommodate to and enthrall with excitement or understanding of the game. However, being a philosophy major doesn't allow me to connect these dots unfortunately". Come on, connect the dots: everyone is drawing the line, saying, you can have an opinion, just remember it's an opinion and it'll be confronted.
Chill, your last post just makes you sound like you really couldn't give a shit about anything that doesn't directly affect you. You sound like a sad little boy whose friend got picked on, so now you're here to tell everyone else that they're jerks for saying something. However, you actually point out that people are giving some constructive criticism. If you don't want to improve, go about your business. Your posts in this thread really do seem to indicate that you just want everyone to do whatever, because at least you'll still get to cast TL events, and if anyone wants to watch them, they can. And if they don't, they can go away. Surely that's not how you want people to take your casting, is it? I could have easily blocked you from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so. A name like yours appearing in my first blog post on TL was not what I was expecting. It shows that the community is actually a very small world after all. However, I believe you either missed something in my post, confused my thoughts with that of others in the thread, and/or really just don't give a shit about what anyone other than yourself is doing in a cast. Dan called you Tasteless yesterday, bro. Shit happens.
Oh boy.
I think I'll just say that the person who's taking these confrontations personally is the one who should grow up. :x
I could have easily blocked you from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so
You can't block off staff from reading/posting your blog. Sorry.
In my OP, I use the term 'we' because I believe that everyone should hold the voices of our chosen hobby/passion/whatever to a higher standard. Pretty sure I explained this in my post this morning, but whatever. You have a misconception of what I was trying to do (which was really just flame TB and rant a bit, as stated later on), but I have no interest in fighting these kinds of battles. Take what you will from the words I typed. I did not back down, I simply clarified.
Keep in mind TB is a caster...he is supposed to make things exciting even if they are boring...and he is really good at doing that (edit: this might include exaggerating parts). I have heard a lot of commentators in my starcraft life, and he's at least top 3 for me.
Also, he is human dude, who gives a shit if he didn't say the EXACT word phrase PERFECTLY correct. Maybe you might notice because you live and breath that stuff...but 99% of people don't notice. TB has been commentating pretty well since the start of SC2 and many people include myself love him. Keep in mind you're also only really talking about one series...talk about nitpicky.
On April 26 2011 03:49 Zapdos_Smithh wrote: Keep in mind TB is a caster...he is supposed to make things exciting even if they are boring...and he is really good at doing that (edit: this might include exaggerating parts). I have heard a lot of commentators in my starcraft life, and he's at least top 3 for me.
Also, he is human dude, who gives a shit if he didn't say the EXACT word phrase PERFECTLY correct. Maybe you might notice because you live and breath that stuff...but 99% of people don't notice. TB has been commentating pretty well since the start of SC2 and many people include myself love him. Keep in mind you're also only really talking about one series...talk about nitpicky.
Point being, little harsh on your end there.
Well I think that's his point and what prompted the OP, it's not little mistakes here and there, he was just plain wrong and contradicting himself throughout the entirety of 2 games and OP couldn't take it anymore and had to post it on TL.
On April 26 2011 03:49 Zapdos_Smithh wrote: Keep in mind TB is a caster...he is supposed to make things exciting even if they are boring...and he is really good at doing that (edit: this might include exaggerating parts). I have heard a lot of commentators in my starcraft life, and he's at least top 3 for me.
Also, he is human dude, who gives a shit if he didn't say the EXACT word phrase PERFECTLY correct. Maybe you might notice because you live and breath that stuff...but 99% of people don't notice. TB has been commentating pretty well since the start of SC2 and many people include myself love him. Keep in mind you're also only really talking about one series...talk about nitpicky.
Point being, little harsh on your end there.
-Many people disagree on what the caster's role is in SC2 -Credibility is important... There is a difference between FPS and RTS games. If the game is an action game, shouting and excitement would be understandably prominent, but when it is a strategy game and what the caster says makes absolutely no sense, it becomes problematic to a lot of people. -It's not one series, most people here have heard multiple casts by him, including myself. It's just criticism though, no need to make it personal as I'm sure he is a pretty cool guy.
On April 25 2011 22:40 Chill wrote: I don't understand why people are confusing their opinion with the sole way things have to be.
I really like TotalBiscuit's casting and I don't like you (OP) [I'm making a lot of money with my Philosophy degree FYI, I would be great at casting if I tried, I'm diamond but I'd by masters if I had time, lol]. Notice how I didn't open a blog explaining how you had to change your posting tone? That's because it's my personal opinion, not some universal barometer for quality.
I agree with this sentiment especially. You could take the first paragraph off of the OP and you would still make the same point. Sadly there's a lot of intros of "hey my opinion matters because I have done so and so". There's no need to have self affirmation inside a blog post it just makes you come off as a douchebag.
On April 25 2011 22:40 Chill wrote: I don't understand why people are confusing their opinion with the sole way things have to be.
I really like TotalBiscuit's casting and I don't like you (OP) [I'm making a lot of money with my Philosophy degree FYI, I would be great at casting if I tried, I'm diamond but I'd by masters if I had time, lol]. Notice how I didn't open a blog explaining how you had to change your posting tone? That's because it's my personal opinion, not some universal barometer for quality.
I agree with this sentiment especially. You could take the first paragraph off of the OP and you would still make the same point. Sadly there's a lot of intros of "hey my opinion matters because I have done so and so". There's no need to have self affirmation inside a blog post it just makes you come off as a douchebag.
It's my blog, in all honesty. I'll write what I want. As my first blog post, I did a little bit about who I am. I don't claim a ladder rank, I don't say what I've done, and I don't say that my opinion matters in the first paragraph. Quote it for me if I'm wrong, broski. I literally stated, as the last sentence, that "all I can do is complain" here on Team Liquid, in the blog section. Let me know if I got your argument wrong.
I generally stay away from arguments but I'll throw in my $0.02 from my experiences as a viewer and LR-er. My view is that you're looking at the standards we should hold our commentators up to in the wrong way, but there's nothing wrong with having standards however.
The role of a Commentator varies depending on how the game is progressing, who the audience is, and whether or not s/he has a co-caster or observer for them. But I feel their primary role is to facilitate entertainment. It's what separates a cast from just watching a replay. While there may be an educational component in watching casts, I feel this is more of a secondary priority.
One of the most important things I think the commentator needs to do is to make watching the game interesting. It's one of the reasons we have the memes of "PLAGUUU" and such from the Korean BW commentators. Their enthusiasm and energy can make even relatively dull matches interesting, even though most of us don't understand Korean and can't understand what they're saying. Have I learnt to be gosu A-rank in ICCup from watching BW? Not really. But darn, I really enjoy hearing "MINE DAEBAK". It never gets old.
Now, as for the informative part of casting. There's a lot of down-time in casting, especially during the period of time when players are content to be passive and macro up or something. But the commentator has to keep talking because otherwise it gets boring. It's quite difficult to keep talking no matter what and I think some lee-way should be given to commentators for this. They kinda have to try and keep guessing as to what each player will do as well as keep an eye out for anything that's occurring and be prepared to swap their train of thought mid-sentence at a drop of a pin. Sometimes, they just don't have enough time to fully explain their thoughts.
In TB's case, he has to Obs himself as well as casting so if he make mistakes due to not being able to notice everything, I think that's okay. His mind needs to be focused on what he sees in the production/resource tabs, the current active screen area, the minimap for anything going on, trying to predict the player's moves as well as talking. That's a lot to be doing and it's easy to find mistakes as a viewer, but I feel it's also understandable for mistakes to be made. As an LR-er, I personally admire the abilities of commentators who can keep spotting things going on despite trying to communicate their thoughts.
Should there be standards for commentating? Sure. But I think being completely factually correct in commentating isn't what we should be aiming for. The main purpose of watching casts is for entertainment. Education is more a secondary purpose. If you want to learn, then things like the Day9 Daily. It's sort of how you wouldn't watch the Olympics to learn how to swim for instance. After the cast is over, if you enjoyed it, then the caster did a good job.
If someone 'casting' the Olympics referred to a swimming stroke that wasn't actually being used, it would matter. Accuracy should matter. Have your opinion, I won't stop anyone from that, but saying that casters don't need to be accurate because they can say words in fun ways is a bit absurd from my pov.
On April 26 2011 04:34 TotalBiscuit wrote: Well that was thoroughly depressing to read.
You have REALLY got to stop reading all the random people flaming you.
Personally as someone who used to think TB sucked, I have really grown to like his style and casting and REALLY enjoy it. The best thing is he does not say "OMGZ I'M GM LEAGUE AND PRO!!!", he admits he is there for the play-by-play.
I think the problem is when commentators pretend like they know a lot but don't and try and be analytical instead of play by play. This is not something TB does. TB is there to make you want to get up and scream in excitement at the end of a awesome game, and I don't think there is a single person that does it better then him.
I think TB read the whole thing poorly. Took it more personal than the intended point of the topic...
In any case:
You have REALLY got to stop reading all the random people flaming you.
Personally as someone who used to think TB sucked, I have really grown to like his style and casting and REALLY enjoy it. The best thing is he does not say "OMGZ I'M GM LEAGUE AND PRO!!!", he admits he is there for the play-by-play.
I think the problem is when commentators pretend like they know a lot but don't and try and be analytical instead of play by play. This is not something TB does. TB is there to make you want to get up and scream in excitement at the end of a awesome game, and I don't think there is a single person that does it better then him.
I suppose those kinds of people who try to be analytical and are sometimes unintentionally wrong. They're trying to contribute more to the match than narrative and I think viewing them poorly just tells them to stick with what's easy and natural, rather than extending themselves to something new and potentially more rewarding.
You don't like a caster? Oh lordy - not that - because everything in esports has to match up with what you deem to be correct and perfect!
TB is, *again*, not an analytical caster, but a color commentator. He is popular because people enjoy his work.
If you don't like his words, then mute him, put on some music, and commentate in your head. Mocking one of the biggest individual supporters and proponents of esports (with his time and money) is asinine. Fuck off.
On April 26 2011 04:49 AlexWilhelm wrote: You don't like a caster? Oh lordy - not that - because everything in esports has to match up with what you deem to be correct and perfect!
TB is, *again*, not an analytical caster, but a color commentator. He is popular because people enjoy his work.
If you don't like his words, then mute him, put on some music, and commentate in your head. Mocking one of the biggest individual supporters and proponents of esports (with his time and money) is asinine. Fuck off.
Thanks for only taking the time to read the OP instead of any of the discussions that happened since. Feel free to not stop by my blog posts in the future if it makes you so mad. (See what I did there?)
On April 26 2011 04:49 AlexWilhelm wrote: You don't like a caster? Oh lordy - not that - because everything in esports has to match up with what you deem to be correct and perfect!
TB is, *again*, not an analytical caster, but a color commentator. He is popular because people enjoy his work.
If you don't like his words, then mute him, put on some music, and commentate in your head. Mocking one of the biggest individual supporters and proponents of esports (with his time and money) is asinine. Fuck off.
Thanks for only taking the time to read the OP instead of any of the discussions that happened since. Feel free to not stop by my blog posts in the future if it makes you so mad. (See what I did there?)
Yeah, I was going to say that he totally blew past the point. Good for you!
On April 26 2011 04:51 darthcaesar wrote: For all your talk of logical fallacies, you do make quite a few hasty generalizations. And dare I say, ad hominem.
I'd argue that my ad hominem isn't actually a logical fallacy in this case, but your point is somewhat valid.
Totalbiscuit is by FAR the most exciting caster around. Infact it was a cast he did that got me in to SC2 in the first place.
Now I didn't know much about SC2 at the time and if I had watched that without sound it would have been off after a minute. If I had watched that casted by HD or Husky (great casters as they are) I would not be here writing this post today. With my total lack of knowledge of SC2 and Totalbiscuit casting, I knew something freaking awesome happened in that game and I got excited. I bought SC2 a couple of days later.
TB is not the most knowledgeable caster but he has a very important role to play as a caster. I guarantee that his high tempo commentary has brought in more than myself to this game and people really need to give serious respect to someone who can generate that level of enthuasiasm for a game. So stop bashing him, because SC2 needs him a lot more that it needs the people who can't see the good in him.
I love the absurdity of premising your post with a thinly veiled argument from authority based on a philosophy degree. Not only does the defective induction highlight your lack of philosophical credentials, but your flaunting of an undergraduate degree makes you look more than a little foolish. At least start your PhD before you start using eduation as a real basis for personal authority.
There are very many people who enjoy TBs casting. It may not be your cup of tea, but luckily the world doesn't revolve around you, nor is e-sports determined by your particular (I presume you can pick that out as the negative of 'universal', given the vast extent of your education) whims and fancies. There is no imperative standard beyond entertainment value, and so long as people take pleasure in TBs casting, he should keep at it. I think the variety of styles is a great advantage of the IPLs line up.
That's a good story, and it's great that people are being brought into the fold from casters such as TB. Do keep in mind that I welcomed the YouTube casting to continue (and even streams, for that matter). My issue is with 'major' tournaments being accurately, and dare I say skillfully, casted.
On April 25 2011 22:40 Chill wrote: I don't understand why people are confusing their opinion with the sole way things have to be.
I really like TotalBiscuit's casting and I don't like you (OP) [I'm making a lot of money with my Philosophy degree FYI, I would be great at casting if I tried, I'm diamond but I'd by masters if I had time, lol]. Notice how I didn't open a blog explaining how you had to change your posting tone? That's because it's my personal opinion, not some universal barometer for quality.
I agree with this sentiment especially. You could take the first paragraph off of the OP and you would still make the same point. Sadly there's a lot of intros of "hey my opinion matters because I have done so and so". There's no need to have self affirmation inside a blog post it just makes you come off as a douchebag.
It's my blog, in all honesty. I'll write what I want. As my first blog post, I did a little bit about who I am. I don't claim a ladder rank, I don't say what I've done, and I don't say that my opinion matters in the first paragraph. Quote it for me if I'm wrong, broski. I literally stated, as the last sentence, that "all I can do is complain" here on Team Liquid, in the blog section. Let me know if I got your argument wrong.
And in my response to your blog I'll reserve the right to write a response as I like, the same way chill has You don't have to say that you opinion matters in the first paragraph to make it a self affirmation, it's obvious because you put it as an intro. And as far as youre last line, "all you can do is complain", i feel like youre putting yourself in the group of people who complain about balance in LR threads and complain about casters every chance they get. Which seems plausible considering you made a whole blog about complaining. lol
Is this really five pages about whether you like Totalbiscuit or not? If you don't like him, don't watch him. Don't call him bad because you don't like him, he has a large following whose opinions differ to yours. There's not a magic scale casters abide by, it's opinion. This could've been said in the second post, and ended the discussion there.
TB has never claimed to be knowledgeable about the game, but he has an awesome casting voice and the ability to make small talk when nothing's going on. And he knows something about lesser known UK players, and considering he mostly does UK tournament casts, that's what he's good at.
I find it fun and entertaining in games where not much is going on. The enthusiasm is real and it's there, which is more than can be said for many.
But he's definitely not the right guy for the big tournaments.
On April 26 2011 04:51 darthcaesar wrote: For all your talk of logical fallacies, you do make quite a few hasty generalizations. And dare I say, ad hominem.
I'd argue that my ad hominem isn't actually a logical fallacy in this case, but your point is somewhat valid.
Indeed, i see some of the validity of the ad hominem, but your tone makes it borderline. Hence my "dare I say." There's no excuse for the generalizations, however.
in my eyes most people who watch sc2 usually play it, and totalbiscuit doesn't know much about the game but he does make it interesting to watch. totalbiscuit in not a analytical caster more of a play by play caster, not every caster is a day9.
On April 26 2011 05:08 Kogut wrote: That's a good story, and it's great that people are being brought into the fold from casters such as TB. Do keep in mind that I welcomed the YouTube casting to continue (and even streams, for that matter). My issue is with 'major' tournaments being accurately, and dare I say skillfully, casted.
Even television casters can be terrible. Especially in Soccer(football) you can get the ones with an attrocious accent that are impossible to understand or the incredibly biased ones towards a team they used to suit up for.
Like you said the ESPN ones were retired players and retired coaches. Yes it is nice to have their expertise but you cannot get that on a game less than a year old. Major tournaments also want their games to appeal to the majority of people. If 5% of the total possible viewers don't tune into the games because they are not analytical enough it is not big deal. If 45% of the possible viewers did not tune in because the commentating was over analytical that is a bigger loss for them and their sponsors.
You have to remember some people don't care about casters and don't get up in arms over it. This site has a lot of users that only had Korean commentating and could not understand it, but still watched regardless.
On April 26 2011 05:04 FilthyPout wrote: I love the absurdity of premising your post with a thinly veiled argument from authority based on a philosophy degree. Not only does the defective induction highlight your lack of philosophical credentials, but your flaunting of an undergraduate degree makes you look more than a little foolish. At least start your PhD before you start using eduation as a real basis for personal authority.
There are very many people who enjoy TBs casting. It may not be your cup of tea, but luckily the world doesn't revolve around you, nor is e-sports determined by your particular (I presume you can pick that out as the negative of 'universal', given the vast extent of your education) whims and fancies. There is no imperative standard beyond entertainment value, and so long as people take pleasure in TBs casting, he should keep at it. I think the variety of styles is a great advantage of the IPLs line up.
Disregarding the flames, which were mild at best, let's look at what I actually said... I pointed out things that were not accurately said during a cast. You are arguing, as have others before you, that entertainment is all that matters. Are you really trying to defend false statements during a tournament cast as being acceptable because he has a good voice (which I have never argued against) that entertains people? As I've said before, I just don't see "I like your voice, and you entertain me," as justification for making false statements.
If you were looking for an attempt to justify my educational choices or something of the sort, you're out of luck. I graduated last summer, and I've been helping take care of family members who helped put me through college, all while trying to find a 'real job' in this economy. Turns out, my degree actually held some value to a particular company. Whether you find value in it or not isn't a concern of mine. What do I think of you, Mr. FilthyPout? But I don't think of you.
On April 26 2011 05:12 Jedclark wrote: Is this really five pages about whether you like Totalbiscuit or not? If you don't like him, don't watch him. Don't call him bad because you don't like him, he has a large following whose opinions differ to yours. There's not a magic scale casters abide by, it's opinion. This could've been said in the second post, and ended the discussion there.
No, but I can't expect newcomers to read through the entire thing. Debating editing the first post with a disclaimer at the beginning for people who don't care for the actual discussion, and only want a quick punchline.
I usually lurk around TL, but this blog has caused me to create an account.
It looks like Kogut just wants TB to be more accurate in his casts. Perhaps his approach to that plead is wrong, but I don't really think that matters. It's not really "blasphemous" to say that TotalBiscuit could improve on his actual game knowledge.
From what I gather, Kogut is arguing that all casters should have some semblance of accuracy. Sure, you can be a play-by-play guy, but you can't be saying completely incorrect facts, which is something TB is actually known for. I do believe a caster cannot be immaculate in that respect, but it should be important to keep that down to a bare minimum, no?
While I don't expect TB to turn into Artosis overnight, I do sometimes wish he, and a lot of other casters, could be at least accurate with the little analysis they do provide. The occasional hiccups do occur, and that's completely forgiveable, but when someone says something completely wrong quite often, I think that's a problem that can (and should?) be addressed. I am not demanding, nor do I believe Kogut is either, that TB changes his style, but for him to become a bit more accurate.
I really don't think it could cause any harm, and can only improve the experience for everyone. For those that are uneducated about Starcraft, I don't think they would be upset when TB says something correct or wrong, but for the experienced viewer, it does make some of us cringe when he is deeply incorrect. If TB were to fix this, I'd say he could be more enjoyable for even more viewers, and isn't that the job of a caster? To attract a variety of audiences? I don't know, maybe that's a misconception on my part.
I'm a bit simple, so I can't articulate my thoughts as well as you fellas can.
P.S. I don't think anyone can argue the demographic that TB pulls in, but if he could be appeasable to even more people, why not? Or is it his role to only appeal to a certain niche of viewers?
On April 25 2011 22:40 Chill wrote: I don't understand why people are confusing their opinion with the sole way things have to be.
I really like TotalBiscuit's casting and I don't like you (OP) [I'm making a lot of money with my Philosophy degree FYI, I would be great at casting if I tried, I'm diamond but I'd by masters if I had time, lol]. Notice how I didn't open a blog explaining how you had to change your posting tone? That's because it's my personal opinion, not some universal barometer for quality.
I agree with this sentiment especially. You could take the first paragraph off of the OP and you would still make the same point. Sadly there's a lot of intros of "hey my opinion matters because I have done so and so". There's no need to have self affirmation inside a blog post it just makes you come off as a douchebag.
It's my blog, in all honesty. I'll write what I want. As my first blog post, I did a little bit about who I am. I don't claim a ladder rank, I don't say what I've done, and I don't say that my opinion matters in the first paragraph. Quote it for me if I'm wrong, broski. I literally stated, as the last sentence, that "all I can do is complain" here on Team Liquid, in the blog section. Let me know if I got your argument wrong.
And in my response to your blog I'll reserve the right to write a response as I like, the same way chill has You don't have to say that you opinion matters in the first paragraph to make it a self affirmation, it's obvious because you put it as an intro. And as far as youre last line, "all you can do is complain", i feel like youre putting yourself in the group of people who complain about balance in LR threads and complain about casters every chance they get. Which seems plausible considering you made a whole blog about complaining. lol
Did you know there's a way to read every past post made by a member of Team Liquid? You missed my joke entirely, so let me break it down.
You: If you don't like it, don't watch it. Me: If you don't like it, don't read it. You: I CAN TYPE WHAT I WANT BECAUSE YOU CAN TYPE WHAT YOU WANT AND SO DID CHILL!1!
On April 26 2011 05:16 Kogut wrote: Are you really trying to defend false statements during a tournament cast as being acceptable because he has a good voice (which I have never argued against) that entertains people? As I've said before, I just don't see "I like your voice, and you entertain me," as justification for making false statements.
Really do not understand the hate TB gets. He has never claimed to be an expert at this game. He does however LOVE starcraft ,dedicates a fair amount of his free time to do casting, when he could be making a lot more cash doing other things.
He's sponsered showmatches and tournaments, hes given a lot of help to up and coming casters like Catspajamas. He has a genuine interest and a passion about the game and esports in general. Poor bloke cast a UK lan yesterday for like 8 hours and in the process had almost lost his voice
All subjective and my opinion of course, but the guy should be bloody praised for what he does and what he gives us all.
I dont expect casters to be perfect gosu level know it alls. I watch Starcraft for entertainment.
On April 26 2011 05:26 Chillax wrote: Really do not understand the hate TB gets. He has never claimed to be an expert at this game. He does however LOVE starcraft ,dedicates a fair amount of his free time to do casting, when he could be making a lot more cash doing other things.
He's sponsered showmatches and tournaments, hes given a lot of help to up and coming casters like Catspajamas. He has a genuine interest and a passion about the game and esports in general. Poor bloke cast a UK lan yesterday for like 8 hours and in the process had almost lost his voice
All subjective and my opinion of course, but the guy should be bloody praised for what he does and what he gives us all.
Fortunately the world more or less gets by without everyone understanding precisely why another human being might not like the same things you or I do.
I wish the internet would stop throwing around the word "hate" so freely. I doubt anyone who doesn't care for TB's video game casting truly hates him. Why do we always jump right to these extremes in what is a simple matter of opinion. Some people like TB's casting, other people don't like it. Where in that do we arrive at there being hatred or loathing for another person?
On April 26 2011 05:26 Chillax wrote: I dont expect casters to be perfect gosu level know it alls. I watch Starcraft for entertainment.
And that's what seperates you and a good handful of other people. While I am sure your opinion is in the majority, I hope the minority opinion gets the same respect, so we can avoid getting bombarded with the many achievements, casts, sponorships, and praise of TotalBiscuit.
I would dare to say that a caster, of any genre, should be informed. While there are varying degrees of being well educated in the elaborate game of SC2, I believe that TB is one of the least informed casters when related to how popular he is. That may come out to be a little demeaning, but I hope it will not offend TB or any of his avid followers.
On April 25 2011 22:40 Chill wrote: I don't understand why people are confusing their opinion with the sole way things have to be.
I really like TotalBiscuit's casting and I don't like you (OP) [I'm making a lot of money with my Philosophy degree FYI, I would be great at casting if I tried, I'm diamond but I'd by masters if I had time, lol]. Notice how I didn't open a blog explaining how you had to change your posting tone? That's because it's my personal opinion, not some universal barometer for quality.
I agree with this sentiment especially. You could take the first paragraph off of the OP and you would still make the same point. Sadly there's a lot of intros of "hey my opinion matters because I have done so and so". There's no need to have self affirmation inside a blog post it just makes you come off as a douchebag.
It's my blog, in all honesty. I'll write what I want. As my first blog post, I did a little bit about who I am. I don't claim a ladder rank, I don't say what I've done, and I don't say that my opinion matters in the first paragraph. Quote it for me if I'm wrong, broski. I literally stated, as the last sentence, that "all I can do is complain" here on Team Liquid, in the blog section. Let me know if I got your argument wrong.
And in my response to your blog I'll reserve the right to write a response as I like, the same way chill has You don't have to say that you opinion matters in the first paragraph to make it a self affirmation, it's obvious because you put it as an intro. And as far as youre last line, "all you can do is complain", i feel like youre putting yourself in the group of people who complain about balance in LR threads and complain about casters every chance they get. Which seems plausible considering you made a whole blog about complaining. lol
Did you know there's a way to read every past post made by a member of Team Liquid? You missed my joke entirely, so let me break it down.
You: If you don't like it, don't watch it. Me: If you don't like it, don't read it. You: I CAN TYPE WHAT I WANT BECAUSE YOU CAN TYPE WHAT YOU WANT AND SO DID CHILL!1!
Still condescending, don't know what your problem is dude, what you said didn't seem like a joke at all
On April 25 2011 22:40 Chill wrote: I don't understand why people are confusing their opinion with the sole way things have to be.
I really like TotalBiscuit's casting and I don't like you (OP) [I'm making a lot of money with my Philosophy degree FYI, I would be great at casting if I tried, I'm diamond but I'd by masters if I had time, lol]. Notice how I didn't open a blog explaining how you had to change your posting tone? That's because it's my personal opinion, not some universal barometer for quality.
I agree with this sentiment especially. You could take the first paragraph off of the OP and you would still make the same point. Sadly there's a lot of intros of "hey my opinion matters because I have done so and so". There's no need to have self affirmation inside a blog post it just makes you come off as a douchebag.
It's my blog, in all honesty. I'll write what I want. As my first blog post, I did a little bit about who I am. I don't claim a ladder rank, I don't say what I've done, and I don't say that my opinion matters in the first paragraph. Quote it for me if I'm wrong, broski. I literally stated, as the last sentence, that "all I can do is complain" here on Team Liquid, in the blog section. Let me know if I got your argument wrong.
And in my response to your blog I'll reserve the right to write a response as I like, the same way chill has You don't have to say that you opinion matters in the first paragraph to make it a self affirmation, it's obvious because you put it as an intro. And as far as youre last line, "all you can do is complain", i feel like youre putting yourself in the group of people who complain about balance in LR threads and complain about casters every chance they get. Which seems plausible considering you made a whole blog about complaining. lol
Did you know there's a way to read every past post made by a member of Team Liquid? You missed my joke entirely, so let me break it down.
You: If you don't like it, don't watch it. Me: If you don't like it, don't read it. You: I CAN TYPE WHAT I WANT BECAUSE YOU CAN TYPE WHAT YOU WANT AND SO DID CHILL!1!
Still condescending, don't know what your problem is dude.
Is that really the fault you should be focusing on? Attitude is something to consider, but sometimes it can be irrelevant.
We should demand nothing but the best if we truly do want eSports to become respected globally
Maybe I'm just becoming so tired of hearing "FOR ESPORTS, WE MUST HAVE RIGID XYZ STANDARDS AND DEMANDS TO PRESERVE THE LIFE OF THIS PROSPERING CONCEPT OF COMPETITIVE NATURE"
[/b]
This is so absolutely true. Totalbiscuit is not going to ruin the worlds perspective on E-sports. Totalbiscuit is a husky type caster, for entertainment. he doesn't need to be super pro at everything. So long as i don't have to watch a silent game with no commentary, TB can stay. Espiecially cuz calling him that reminds me of world or warcraft.
Sorry, just had to get that out of me. Personally, I get so excited when I listen to TB casting a big battle, and his fluidity during a battle is, as a fellow caster, inspiring. Have you ever tried actually casting a game? It is ridiculously mentally demanding, and the fact that you went back and analyzed his casting is baffling. Psych. Majors... You think TB isn't furthering eSports? Well, guess what, you might actually be harming eSports with idiotic posts like this. He's actually getting off his ass and doing something about it, including sponsoring the british Collegiate league.
Please come back when you've actually done anything to help eSports in any capacity except complain over free, amazing content which you hold to some ludicrous standard you invented yourself.
Let me share my main concern with your argument, sir. The largest fallacy is your assumption of the target audience. If I'm not mistaken, your claim is that it is not acceptable for a caster to say something incorrect about the game. As you have mentioned, this is a subjective statement. This is a blog, and you are expressing your opinion. Your dispute isn't directly targeting TB, but rather casters who say things incorrectly.
Now, I could point out all casters (yes, even Day[9]) make mistakes, and we could get in a debate over whether TB's statements were intentional or not. You might say he was ignorant to his misinformation and others might say he simply slipped up. That, however, is an issue I do not believe we can resolve as we do not have enough information to do so.
Back to my original point - your assumed target audience of the cast. Starting from your personal opinion of disliking TB because of his "false statements," you generalize that "the casters of large tournaments need to be held accountable." This jump in reasoning assumes that all of the target audience of the cast shares your personal opinions.
Consider the case of a person unfamiliar to StarCraft II (like the person on page 5 of this thread). If this person watches TB, do you think he will care about "false statements"? No, he won't - because this person doesn't know these statements are false. What he does know is that he is being entertained and enthralled by the game.
This is an example of the kind of target audience your statement ignores. Of all leagues, the IPL has the highest likelihood of attracting new fans - which, I think, we can both agree is a good thing. We want the StarCraft II community to grow. This is why TB is perfect for the IPL - he makes the game exciting. I saw someone post on twitter that TB could make drying paint exciting. That is the value he brings into the picture.
I'm not arguing that TB's "false statements" are good; I'm also not arguing TB doesn't have room to improve. What I'm saying is consider the fact that not everyone is looking for the same values as you are, and you need to take that into account when making generalizations as you have done.
I got into pro Starcraft because of Cholera ripping Firefist a new one while comparing every encounter with some random historical battle and going off on long tangents about soviet tanks that had nothing whatsoever to do with what was going on.
As my knowledge of the intricacies of the game increased I gravitated toward more knowledgeable casters and eventually the Day[9] daily (when it was about Brood War, that is). But unless I was entertained by plebian bullshit while learning I never would have stuck with what I didn't understand was an actual sport at the time.
Give the entertainers a break, they're not for you.
See, I see a contradiction in your statement's conclusion. I did not, at any point, say that being entertained is a bad thing. That's a generalization being made here. I did say that casters should be held accountable. While being entertained is great, should the new viewers not have accurate information? I think that you are one of the people pulling things out of my posts that are not actually there. I picked apart the one game because it was a very quick (under 10 minutes) game, it didn't take much time while I was waiting for Code A (and its preceding K-Pop) to start, and there were some pretty glaring holes. Game 2 was what really motivated me, but it was a longer cast, and not what I wanted to tackle at 1:00AM my time to start a discussion.
Just read what you typed for me one more time. You seem to throw me into a group of people who do not want to be entertained. That's not the case, as I said I watch the tournaments and cast as part of my evening entertainment. You say that he brings new viewers, which I have never argued against. You infer, even if you don't say it, that a caster need not be held accountable for the accuracy of their statements, so long as they are entertaining. I may be making a jump to get that point, but it's one I think is rather reasonable.
On April 26 2011 05:53 Kogut wrote: You infer, even if you don't say it, that a caster need not be held accountable for the accuracy of their statements, so long as they are entertaining. I may be making a jump to get that point, but it's one I think is rather reasonable.
They are held accountable. People who care about it watch other casters.
On April 26 2011 05:51 Tin_Foil wrote: People are such dicks on the Internet.... I wonder how much calmer and more rational this argument would have been in person..
Barring random blackouts, people usually can't skip over the parts they wish in an actual conversation. It's far too easy to skip over 5+ pages of text to just post a snide remark.
On April 26 2011 05:46 Darthozzan wrote: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!
Sorry, just had to get that out of me. Personally, I get so excited when I listen to TB casting a big battle, and his fluidity during a battle is, as a fellow caster, inspiring. Have you ever tried actually casting a game? It is ridiculously mentally demanding, and the fact that you went back and analyzed his casting is baffling. Psych. Majors... You think TB isn't furthering eSports? Well, guess what, you might actually be harming eSports with idiotic posts like this. He's actually getting off his ass and doing something about it, including sponsoring the british Collegiate league.
Please come back when you've actually done anything to help eSports in any capacity except complain over free, amazing content which you hold to some ludicrous standard you invented yourself.
I lol'd at your starting line. Then when you made the Psych Majors comment, I lol'd again. Good reading comprehension skills, big guy!
well if you cast alot of games you learn right? and i would say that tb casts alot of game. just give it some time and he will learn more. he'll probly not be at day9's level but a play by play caster doesn't need to be. to think tb doesn't try to improve is straight up ignorant and dumb.
i belive that the core of this debate (not the original post, the comments) is based around personal preferense. some people like tb some don't and if you don't you just have to deal with his casting (pro tip:mute). for anyone to think that their own prefernese is more important than someone elses is well fucking retarded.
psi think sport anologys doesn't fit well within the topic, name one sport were there is as much going on at the same time as stacraft
hmm iff you want to hear analyseing cast mute tb you want get much of that there. there are other casters there do play by play. and why shuld we want to listen to other thing? when i watch a turnament i doo it to be intertaned not to lern get the replay's iff you want to lern and analyse it yourself.
what a good cast is: a cast where you can live yourself inside the match and that is what khaldor and tb do great (khaldor knows a bit more of the game than tb but not much analyse from him eether) you dont see a soccer game where you hear the commentater talk about why he is going to the left insted of right no you hear them tell he is going right with the ball pass it to .... there sending it flying over the goal. and not why he send it over the goal or why he passed it to the other and you know why? it dont matter a .......
tb iff you read it keep up the good work 300.000 subs say's it all
On April 26 2011 05:53 Kogut wrote: See, I see a contradiction in your statement's conclusion. I did not, at any point, say that being entertained is a bad thing. That's a generalization being made here. I did say that casters should be held accountable. While being entertained is great, should the new viewers not have accurate information? I think that you are one of the people pulling things out of my posts that are not actually there. I picked apart the one game because it was a very quick (under 10 minutes) game, it didn't take much time while I was waiting for Code A (and its preceding K-Pop) to start, and there were some pretty glaring holes. Game 2 was what really motivated me, but it was a longer cast, and not what I wanted to tackle at 1:00AM my time to start a discussion.
Just read what you typed for me one more time. You seem to throw me into a group of people who do not want to be entertained. That's not the case, as I said I watch the tournaments and cast as part of my evening entertainment. You say that he brings new viewers, which I have never argued against. You infer, even if you don't say it, that a caster need not be held accountable for the accuracy of their statements, so long as they are entertaining. I may be making a jump to get that point, but it's one I think is rather reasonable.
You sir, are the one making generalizations. I did not say that you said that being entertained is a bad thing. The only real point I wanted to get across was that your statements assume certain qualities about a target audience that aren't necessarily true.
Like many before me, I started out by watching Husky/HD. Once I learned about Day[9], I started making the transition from preferring entertaining commentary to preferring analytical commentary. While, ideally, new viewers should have access to commentary that states everything perfectly, it is not necessary. As new viewers, they won't realize or care. As they become more and more involved in the StarCraft II community, they shall learn of the wonders of Day[9] and so forth. It's a sort of natural progression for the average StarCraft II fan.
I am not implying at all that you do not wish to be entertained - that is absurd. I am simply saying that for you, these "false statements" ruin a portion of the value of the entertainment, and that is not the case for others, as your blog seemed to imply. If you dislike TB's casting because of he aforementioned reasons, that is perfectly respectable. There is nothing wrong with it - everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. My problem is that you want to project your opinion into the world as if it were something everyone should accept. Your argument is purely based on opinion - you are saying casters should be held responsible for what they say because you think that is the way it should be.
The fact of the matter is that many people, myself included, enjoy TotalBiscuit's casting. If he were not casting the IPL, it would only take away from the tournament to those of us who enjoy his casts. I think we can agree, at least, that TotalBiscuit's casting style ("false statements" aside) is, in fact, entertaining. It is a unique style we won't find anywhere else. There is nowhere to go but up - TB's casting will improve with more practice, as is true for all casters.
In essence, the point is that while having your own opinion is all fine and dandy, don't impose your own opinions on others.
As a side note, I would like to observe that you did not, in fact, address any of the concerns I made, but instead, made new concerns about my post. It would be nice if you replied directly instead of avoiding the issue.
What here, exactly, needed to be posted in a blog that could not be addressed in, say, a PM?
Also, I think you underestimate just how easy it is to make mistakes when the priority is not necessary imparting factual knowledge but keeping the flow of commentary. The atmosphere is what's key -- why do you think the MBCGame commentary is so awesome? I don't understand 99% of it but it doesn't matter.
Speaking of which, TB -- you're a fine commentator ~
I went for a run, and I've added a new intro to my OP. It clearly states my intentions, and it addresses some of the misconceptions brought up in the 7 pages that followed. Please do not continue to make yourselves look bad by blindly posting about how great or terrible TB or any other caster is from your view. Please do not continue to attack me, or any other caster on a personal level, or you will simply be blocked from my blog posts. There is too much blind fanboyism and criticism in this thread, and that is in no way what I want. I'm done addressing the misconceptions and attacks, as they are not the intended topic of discussion.
"It's hard" is not a valid excuse in the real world. It might be a valid excuse for why you get a lower grade than expected in a class, on an assignment, etc. However, it does not fly when it comes to being a professional at anything. If I walked into work, and told my superiors that I could not complete a project accurately because it was difficult, I would probably not have a job for long. Given, banking is not done at the same pace as RTS commentary, but everyone cannot continue to believe that difficulty and pace are excuses for inaccuracy.
I call for casters, and thus our public faces of the game, to better themselves. If you do not want people to be better, I cannot have a logical argument, debate, etc with you. It's simply a wall that nobody can breach. If you love TotalBiscuit (or any other caster), let them know. Hell, keep letting them know in my blog. However, please stop acting like we should have less expectations of the people who are the public personalities of something we love so much. If you don't love this stupid fucking strategy game, watch D9D #100, and maybe you'll understand where the drive to be better comes from.
I like TotalBiscuit's casting, and there's not a single thing you can do about it.
It's rather audacious to drone on and on about how people need to better themselves over the internet - it is hiding behind anonymity to avoid accountability in your own argument. At the end of the day, some people like his casting, and some people do not; you just happen to be a vocal member of the latter group, and you're going to have to deal with that.
No one has to change because of your beliefs, because your beliefs do not hold any more weight than their own.
On April 25 2011 20:17 Dali. wrote: I really have a difficult time enjoying any caster who have never invested much effort into playing the game itself. Starcraft is a game with such depth to strategy and subtlety that to cast it without a strong knowledge of these things is a real fault on the caster behalf. Highlighting the intricacies of the game brings it alive. Its the difference between:
"Explosions and bullets tearing through the opponent and terran wins that battle convincingly" to "Oh my god, terran executed x strategical maneuvering perfectly, leading to y during the battle, and won convincingly because of it"
Understanding the foresight and execution of high level players should the essential core to any cast. Obviously slip ups or mischaracterizations are acceptable, but a caster should be looking to read into a strategy more than simply aggressive or defensive.
Personally, if I was being paid money to cast in front of thousands upon thousands of people, I would spend every free minute learning the game first hand. The respect and legitimacy it brings to a cast is invaluable. Some of my favourite moments in casts come when a caster has first hand experience playing against one of the players they're casting and is able to reference past games and is more competent at dissecting their style.
Obviously I'm not suggesting every caster be at code S level, but for goodness sake, if you're a figure head in the industry, at least get to masters league.
Sup brosef :D
Agree with all of that. Sure, if you're a caster who is focusing on entertainment value/play by play rather than intense analysis then you don't need an Artosis level of knowledge, but could it make your casting any worse? Obviously not. Knowing more can only make your casting better, and thus any serious caster should be trying to learn the game as best they can.
There's definitely no excuse for having an understanding as limited as TB's. SC2 is a real-time-strategy game, and if TB has no interest in furthering his understanding of the strategy component (which he has said, or at least implied, himself) then you have to doubt his passion for the game.
Do you work this hard at your job? I don't. I know the code and I can reference maybe a dozen sections, but I don't go home at night to reread the code and study drawings.
Why is Starcraft commentary different than any other job?
How hard he works is entirely up to him. I don't care. My only point was that if this is his passion and he can be better, why not be better? Why not spend even just 30 minutes a day really trying to learn the game?
Why are you telling someone how to live their life? It's actually absurd. Why not spend 30 minutes a day reading a new book? Why not spend 30 minutes a day trying to get a more attractive girlfriend. Why not spend 30 minutes a day trying to get a better job? Why not spend 30 minutes a day doing exercise?
Am I crazy for thinking this?
I'm not telling him. I'm giving him advice like it says in the second half of my post - which you conveniently left out. FFS. It's not that hard to understand.
The 'why not' part of the question is entirely up to TB to answer. If he has a good reason why not, then fine. In no way am I telling him how to live his life. It's as if you went out of your way to misinterpret me.
On April 26 2011 09:52 Maero wrote: I like TotalBiscuit's casting, and there's not a single thing you can do about it.
It's rather audacious to drone on and on about how people need to better themselves over the internet - it is hiding behind anonymity to avoid accountability in your own argument. At the end of the day, some people like his casting, and some people do not; you just happen to be a vocal member of the latter group, and you're going to have to deal with that.
No one has to change because of your beliefs, because your beliefs do not hold any more weight than their own.
I know I said I wouldn't, but you clearly didn't even try. I am not trying to change your view of any caster. I am, as you stated, asking people to better themselves. You have missed all but one tiny point in the entire 100+ posts of this thread. Your own ignorance shows this more clearly than you realize. You're right, nobody has to change because of anything I say. However, please take a moment to understand why you will no longer be able to post in this thread. While my beliefs are worth no more than anyone else's, they are mine to voice nonetheless. I just wish you had taken the time to contribute in a positive way.
When it comes to prioritizing game knowledge over commentary flow, I prefer those who take the latter. Its not the job of the commentator to tell you what's going on (at a deep strategic level), in my opinion -- you have literally all the information available to you, even more so in Sc2 than in BW.
Production tab / supply count / minimap, etc.
There's nothing rational, or particularly enlightening, about PLAGUUUUUU. But it is the best style (or at least one of the more appreciated ones) out there.
I can understand how some people do enjoy TB's enthusiastic casting and his voice is pleasantly exotic (or rather he's not just another american caster) yet understandable. However i do also think the blog has some valid points, namely he has no idea how to play this game and it unfortunately does come across in his casting.
I hope everyone can understand the need for casters with at least a mid-high level of game knowledge, I don't think I've ever watched a game of football and had a commentator make a mistake with the offside rule (english) which is what some casters mistakes could be equated too (sorry I don't know much about american sports - whats that basketball thing were they run back across the line in the middle? ^_^).
I feel the major criticism that can be made is that some casters are without knowledge that would seem basic to a lot of diamond players. Fundamentals discussed in the blog such as when a zerg needs to done, why a zerg takes 14 pool 14 gas before hatch and why poking the front is so important, all these basics are SO ACCESSIBLE through a massive cache of information gathered and formated by a great community into easy-to-understand VODs or dailies. With such a massive wealth of game tactics, builds and decision making scenarios to draw upon - casters really should be showing progressive improvements in their knowledge of the game. If i hire someone to code HTML with little experience, then provide them with numerous opportunities to advance his skill but 12 months later my boss isn't happy, you bet your ass I'm replacing that slacker.
This blog was worded pretty strongly, I don't think TB or some of the newer casters are terrible, with a couple of weeks randoming on the ladder, discussing the actual gameplay with some of the progamers they people the surely have access too - especially with the massive boom in coaches. After investing some time into actually playing the game instead of casting some of the newer casters have the potential to be awesome.
Tl;dr There is already a lot of gameplay/tactical/build order/decision making information, it is easily accessible, casters should use it more.
It's quite long, and I accomplished what I set out to do. If you've seen it, you don't need explanation. If you haven't seen it, you're just going to flame me and/or generalize.
:/ Why bother disagreeing or arguing if you make these kinds of sweeping generalizations.
EPT
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