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On April 26 2011 05:53 Kogut wrote:
You infer, even if you don't say it, that a caster need not be held accountable for the accuracy of their statements, so long as they are entertaining. I may be making a jump to get that point, but it's one I think is rather reasonable.
They are held accountable. People who care about it watch other casters.
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On April 26 2011 05:51 Tin_Foil wrote:
People are such dicks on the Internet.... I wonder how much calmer and more rational this argument would have been in person..
Barring random blackouts, people usually can't skip over the parts they wish in an actual conversation. It's far too easy to skip over 5+ pages of text to just post a snide remark.
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On April 26 2011 05:46 Darthozzan wrote:
ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!
Sorry, just had to get that out of me. Personally, I get so excited when I listen to TB casting a big battle, and his fluidity during a battle is, as a fellow caster, inspiring. Have you ever tried actually casting a game? It is ridiculously mentally demanding, and the fact that you went back and analyzed his casting is baffling. Psych. Majors... You think TB isn't furthering eSports? Well, guess what, you might actually be harming eSports with idiotic posts like this. He's actually getting off his ass and doing something about it, including sponsoring the british Collegiate league.
Please come back when you've actually done anything to help eSports in any capacity except complain over free, amazing content which you hold to some ludicrous standard you invented yourself.
I lol'd at your starting line. Then when you made the Psych Majors comment, I lol'd again. Good reading comprehension skills, big guy!
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well if you cast alot of games you learn right? and i would say that tb casts alot of game. just give it some time and he will learn more. he'll probly not be at day9's level but a play by play caster doesn't need to be. to think tb doesn't try to improve is straight up ignorant and dumb.
i belive that the core of this debate (not the original post, the comments) is based around personal preferense. some people like tb some don't and if you don't you just have to deal with his casting (pro tip:mute). for anyone to think that their own prefernese is more important than someone elses is well fucking retarded.
psi think sport anologys doesn't fit well within the topic, name one sport were there is as much going on at the same time as stacraft
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hmm iff you want to hear analyseing cast mute tb you want get much of that there. there are other casters there do play by play. and why shuld we want to listen to other thing? when i watch a turnament i doo it to be intertaned not to lern get the replay's iff you want to lern and analyse it yourself.
what a good cast is: a cast where you can live yourself inside the match and that is what khaldor and tb do great (khaldor knows a bit more of the game than tb but not much analyse from him eether) you dont see a soccer game where you hear the commentater talk about why he is going to the left insted of right no you hear them tell he is going right with the ball pass it to .... there sending it flying over the goal. and not why he send it over the goal or why he passed it to the other and you know why? it dont matter a .......
tb iff you read it keep up the good work 300.000 subs say's it all
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On April 26 2011 05:53 Kogut wrote:
See, I see a contradiction in your statement's conclusion. I did not, at any point, say that being entertained is a bad thing. That's a generalization being made here. I did say that casters should be held accountable. While being entertained is great, should the new viewers not have accurate information? I think that you are one of the people pulling things out of my posts that are not actually there. I picked apart the one game because it was a very quick (under 10 minutes) game, it didn't take much time while I was waiting for Code A (and its preceding K-Pop) to start, and there were some pretty glaring holes. Game 2 was what really motivated me, but it was a longer cast, and not what I wanted to tackle at 1:00AM my time to start a discussion.
Just read what you typed for me one more time. You seem to throw me into a group of people who do not want to be entertained. That's not the case, as I said I watch the tournaments and cast as part of my evening entertainment. You say that he brings new viewers, which I have never argued against. You infer, even if you don't say it, that a caster need not be held accountable for the accuracy of their statements, so long as they are entertaining. I may be making a jump to get that point, but it's one I think is rather reasonable.
You sir, are the one making generalizations. I did not say that you said that being entertained is a bad thing. The only real point I wanted to get across was that your statements assume certain qualities about a target audience that aren't necessarily true.
Like many before me, I started out by watching Husky/HD. Once I learned about Day[9], I started making the transition from preferring entertaining commentary to preferring analytical commentary. While, ideally, new viewers should have access to commentary that states everything perfectly, it is not necessary. As new viewers, they won't realize or care. As they become more and more involved in the StarCraft II community, they shall learn of the wonders of Day[9] and so forth. It's a sort of natural progression for the average StarCraft II fan.
I am not implying at all that you do not wish to be entertained - that is absurd. I am simply saying that for you, these "false statements" ruin a portion of the value of the entertainment, and that is not the case for others, as your blog seemed to imply. If you dislike TB's casting because of he aforementioned reasons, that is perfectly respectable. There is nothing wrong with it - everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. My problem is that you want to project your opinion into the world as if it were something everyone should accept. Your argument is purely based on opinion - you are saying casters should be held responsible for what they say because you think that is the way it should be.
The fact of the matter is that many people, myself included, enjoy TotalBiscuit's casting. If he were not casting the IPL, it would only take away from the tournament to those of us who enjoy his casts. I think we can agree, at least, that TotalBiscuit's casting style ("false statements" aside) is, in fact, entertaining. It is a unique style we won't find anywhere else. There is nowhere to go but up - TB's casting will improve with more practice, as is true for all casters.
In essence, the point is that while having your own opinion is all fine and dandy, don't impose your own opinions on others.
As a side note, I would like to observe that you did not, in fact, address any of the concerns I made, but instead, made new concerns about my post. It would be nice if you replied directly instead of avoiding the issue.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
What here, exactly, needed to be posted in a blog that could not be addressed in, say, a PM?
Also, I think you underestimate just how easy it is to make mistakes when the priority is not necessary imparting factual knowledge but keeping the flow of commentary. The atmosphere is what's key -- why do you think the MBCGame commentary is so awesome? I don't understand 99% of it but it doesn't matter.
Speaking of which, TB -- you're a fine commentator ~
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I went for a run, and I've added a new intro to my OP. It clearly states my intentions, and it addresses some of the misconceptions brought up in the 7 pages that followed. Please do not continue to make yourselves look bad by blindly posting about how great or terrible TB or any other caster is from your view. Please do not continue to attack me, or any other caster on a personal level, or you will simply be blocked from my blog posts. There is too much blind fanboyism and criticism in this thread, and that is in no way what I want. I'm done addressing the misconceptions and attacks, as they are not the intended topic of discussion.
"It's hard" is not a valid excuse in the real world. It might be a valid excuse for why you get a lower grade than expected in a class, on an assignment, etc. However, it does not fly when it comes to being a professional at anything. If I walked into work, and told my superiors that I could not complete a project accurately because it was difficult, I would probably not have a job for long. Given, banking is not done at the same pace as RTS commentary, but everyone cannot continue to believe that difficulty and pace are excuses for inaccuracy.
I call for casters, and thus our public faces of the game, to better themselves. If you do not want people to be better, I cannot have a logical argument, debate, etc with you. It's simply a wall that nobody can breach. If you love TotalBiscuit (or any other caster), let them know. Hell, keep letting them know in my blog. However, please stop acting like we should have less expectations of the people who are the public personalities of something we love so much. If you don't love this stupid fucking strategy game, watch D9D #100, and maybe you'll understand where the drive to be better comes from.
Thank you, may you Live Long and Prosper.
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I like TotalBiscuit's casting, and there's not a single thing you can do about it.
It's rather audacious to drone on and on about how people need to better themselves over the internet - it is hiding behind anonymity to avoid accountability in your own argument. At the end of the day, some people like his casting, and some people do not; you just happen to be a vocal member of the latter group, and you're going to have to deal with that.
No one has to change because of your beliefs, because your beliefs do not hold any more weight than their own.
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On April 26 2011 01:38 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 01:07 Swede wrote:On April 25 2011 23:35 Chill wrote:On April 25 2011 20:36 Swede wrote:On April 25 2011 20:17 Dali. wrote:
I really have a difficult time enjoying any caster who have never invested much effort into playing the game itself. Starcraft is a game with such depth to strategy and subtlety that to cast it without a strong knowledge of these things is a real fault on the caster behalf. Highlighting the intricacies of the game brings it alive. Its the difference between:
"Explosions and bullets tearing through the opponent and terran wins that battle convincingly"
to
"Oh my god, terran executed x strategical maneuvering perfectly, leading to y during the battle, and won convincingly because of it"
Understanding the foresight and execution of high level players should the essential core to any cast. Obviously slip ups or mischaracterizations are acceptable, but a caster should be looking to read into a strategy more than simply aggressive or defensive.
Personally, if I was being paid money to cast in front of thousands upon thousands of people, I would spend every free minute learning the game first hand. The respect and legitimacy it brings to a cast is invaluable. Some of my favourite moments in casts come when a caster has first hand experience playing against one of the players they're casting and is able to reference past games and is more competent at dissecting their style.
Obviously I'm not suggesting every caster be at code S level, but for goodness sake, if you're a figure head in the industry, at least get to masters league. Sup brosef :D Agree with all of that. Sure, if you're a caster who is focusing on entertainment value/play by play rather than intense analysis then you don't need an Artosis level of knowledge, but could it make your casting any worse? Obviously not. Knowing more can only make your casting better, and thus any serious caster should be trying to learn the game as best they can. There's definitely no excuse for having an understanding as limited as TB's. SC2 is a real-time-strategy game, and if TB has no interest in furthering his understanding of the strategy component (which he has said, or at least implied, himself) then you have to doubt his passion for the game. Do you work this hard at your job? I don't. I know the code and I can reference maybe a dozen sections, but I don't go home at night to reread the code and study drawings. Why is Starcraft commentary different than any other job? How hard he works is entirely up to him. I don't care. My only point was that if this is his passion and he can be better, why not be better? Why not spend even just 30 minutes a day really trying to learn the game? Why are you telling someone how to live their life? It's actually absurd. Why not spend 30 minutes a day reading a new book? Why not spend 30 minutes a day trying to get a more attractive girlfriend. Why not spend 30 minutes a day trying to get a better job? Why not spend 30 minutes a day doing exercise? Am I crazy for thinking this?
I'm not telling him. I'm giving him advice like it says in the second half of my post - which you conveniently left out. FFS. It's not that hard to understand.
The 'why not' part of the question is entirely up to TB to answer. If he has a good reason why not, then fine. In no way am I telling him how to live his life. It's as if you went out of your way to misinterpret me.
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On April 26 2011 09:52 Maero wrote:
I like TotalBiscuit's casting, and there's not a single thing you can do about it.
It's rather audacious to drone on and on about how people need to better themselves over the internet - it is hiding behind anonymity to avoid accountability in your own argument. At the end of the day, some people like his casting, and some people do not; you just happen to be a vocal member of the latter group, and you're going to have to deal with that.
No one has to change because of your beliefs, because your beliefs do not hold any more weight than their own.
I know I said I wouldn't, but you clearly didn't even try. I am not trying to change your view of any caster. I am, as you stated, asking people to better themselves. You have missed all but one tiny point in the entire 100+ posts of this thread. Your own ignorance shows this more clearly than you realize. You're right, nobody has to change because of anything I say. However, please take a moment to understand why you will no longer be able to post in this thread. While my beliefs are worth no more than anyone else's, they are mine to voice nonetheless. I just wish you had taken the time to contribute in a positive way.
LL&P.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
When it comes to prioritizing game knowledge over commentary flow, I prefer those who take the latter. Its not the job of the commentator to tell you what's going on (at a deep strategic level), in my opinion -- you have literally all the information available to you, even more so in Sc2 than in BW.
Production tab / supply count / minimap, etc.
There's nothing rational, or particularly enlightening, about PLAGUUUUUU. But it is the best style (or at least one of the more appreciated ones) out there.
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Dude you don't have to purposly miss interpert everything he says....
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I can understand how some people do enjoy TB's enthusiastic casting and his voice is pleasantly exotic (or rather he's not just another american caster) yet understandable. However i do also think the blog has some valid points, namely he has no idea how to play this game and it unfortunately does come across in his casting.
I hope everyone can understand the need for casters with at least a mid-high level of game knowledge, I don't think I've ever watched a game of football and had a commentator make a mistake with the offside rule (english) which is what some casters mistakes could be equated too (sorry I don't know much about american sports - whats that basketball thing were they run back across the line in the middle? ^_^).
I feel the major criticism that can be made is that some casters are without knowledge that would seem basic to a lot of diamond players. Fundamentals discussed in the blog such as when a zerg needs to done, why a zerg takes 14 pool 14 gas before hatch and why poking the front is so important, all these basics are SO ACCESSIBLE through a massive cache of information gathered and formated by a great community into easy-to-understand VODs or dailies.
With such a massive wealth of game tactics, builds and decision making scenarios to draw upon - casters really should be showing progressive improvements in their knowledge of the game. If i hire someone to code HTML with little experience, then provide them with numerous opportunities to advance his skill but 12 months later my boss isn't happy, you bet your ass I'm replacing that slacker.
This blog was worded pretty strongly, I don't think TB or some of the newer casters are terrible, with a couple of weeks randoming on the ladder, discussing the actual gameplay with some of the progamers they people the surely have access too - especially with the massive boom in coaches. After investing some time into actually playing the game instead of casting some of the newer casters have the potential to be awesome.
Tl;dr There is already a lot of gameplay/tactical/build order/decision making information, it is easily accessible, casters should use it more.
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Germany38463 Posts
It's quite long, and I accomplished what I set out to do. If you've seen it, you don't need explanation. If you haven't seen it, you're just going to flame me and/or generalize.
:/ Why bother disagreeing or arguing if you make these kinds of sweeping generalizations.
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EPT
