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Okay so this is a blog because some will find it offensive. I Saw this thread and it greatly disturbed me..
And now I shall tell you why, most of the people in the first part of the thread before TL stepped up and started giving some serious constructive criticism are low post count people who watch these events and give nothing back. Then when they see some mistake by these people who are donating their time for US and all you can do is bitch about how it wasn't perfect?
This has gone way too far, how many of you reading this right now have ever hosted a tournament. Any tournament doesn't even have to be on iCCup I mean any little scrub tournament on USEast a tournament in your dorm or at at LAN. It isn't easy, how many of you have ever streamed live? Shit goes wrong and to see people who I'm pretty sure have never done any of that have never even tried it or even THOUGHT about doing it themselves complaining because it wasn't perfect pisses me the fuck off.
This isn't about being an admin I'm writing this as a member of Team Liquid there used to be a sense that ever member of TL had to contribute something. Some of them made maps, others were good at posting in the strategy forum sharing their ideas, others made fun events or games. But the vast majority of contributing something was just by making quality posts because this forum is our community. So seriously stop being so selfish and just think about it before you post it guys. If you re-read your post and it's all me me me me it wasn't what I wanted then just hit the back button on your browser or try and rewrite it so that you can offer something HELPFUL to the people who are reading it.
I'm not saying everyone has to go out and start streaming or run community events, just try and contribute better posts to our community; because it is OUR community, take some ownership in it. Instead of criticizing people for making a mistake in a completely unhelpful manner try giving suggestions on how they might be able to fix mistakes. Post a quick thank you to the people who are donating their time for you even if they did make a mistake because the alternative is that they could just not do it.
Our society has moved into consumerism everyone wants to just consume goods and nobody wants to produce. The mindset that everyone else has to provide you the services that you want and all you can do is complain when these services don't measure up to what you've come to expect disturbs me greatly.
 
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Refusing to fix something and saying "well don't complain, it's free" is just about the worst attitude an organizer can have. I'm glad the TSL people are stepping up to the plate to make it as perfect as possible with the limited resources available.
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Thanks for posting this. I 100% agree, and i will say this:
Because SC2 is on the horizon, TL and other SC websites are now flooded with new kids. These people have no idea about SC history, or the SC community. It makes me sad that they can somehow think the SC community is anything like other 'game' communities. Like MLG or what not.
I would hope that everyone takes the time to read this, because this is the sad truth.
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I'm not saying you can't complain I'm saying do it in a better manner. Complain and give constructive criticism say how it can be made better. Be very clear on WHY you didn't like it don't just say "it sucked." I'm tired of the shallow unhelpful complaints go ahead and complain you have the right to complain but you owe it to the community to do it in a constructive way.
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There was plenty of constructive criticism on page 1:
I agree. The observer seems to miss many critical moments. There was an instance where a recall was in place and it wasn't located until the attack was over. I think it would be better if the casters were controlling the observer in sync with their casts.
For example he took like 20 seconds to react on terran's drop on jf's 7oclock expo. And terran was yellow, it was so obvious on the minimap, and was thinking "wtf the only thing he has to do is watching the minimap, how can't he see this?"
I'll compare with the Korean observers. They observe the map in a calm, steady way, clicking certain buildings and units, and moving to certain areas that are important as the game progresses. They highlight certain areas, and work as a team with the commentators to help the people better watch and understand the game.
For the TSL in general, not just this set, I cannot list the number of times the observer has been looking somewhere completely different for 30 seconds, while the commentators are talking and philosophizing about something else.
Thanks guys, please get someone else or make improvements on the one now... as i said, my only real complaint with this awesome tourney.
I'd say the most immature post award on page 1 went to Carnac himself:
Why dont you provide us with a TV studio and pay for everyone (players & casters) to do it from there?
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On February 08 2010 09:55 jalstar wrote:There was plenty of constructive criticism on page 1: Show nested quote +I agree. The observer seems to miss many critical moments. There was an instance where a recall was in place and it wasn't located until the attack was over. I think it would be better if the casters were controlling the observer in sync with their casts. Show nested quote +For example he took like 20 seconds to react on terran's drop on jf's 7oclock expo. And terran was yellow, it was so obvious on the minimap, and was thinking "wtf the only thing he has to do is watching the minimap, how can't he see this?" Show nested quote +I'll compare with the Korean observers. They observe the map in a calm, steady way, clicking certain buildings and units, and moving to certain areas that are important as the game progresses. They highlight certain areas, and work as a team with the commentators to help the people better watch and understand the game.
For the TSL in general, not just this set, I cannot list the number of times the observer has been looking somewhere completely different for 30 seconds, while the commentators are talking and philosophizing about something else.
Thanks guys, please get someone else or make improvements on the one now... as i said, my only real complaint with this awesome tourney. I'd say the most immature post award on page 1 went to Carnac himself: Show nested quote +Why dont you provide us with a TV studio and pay for everyone (players & casters) to do it from there?
He said that because he was being compared to a Korean observer.
I would take the same attitude if I was putting my time into providing something for free and there was a thread telling you to improve, and asking to be replaced. What the fuck.
In reply to the OP, I agree to an extent but there are plenty of people like me who join this site and don't have the time to contribute anything worthwhile or don't have anything to contribute and just want to watch some good starcraft. If I had something to contribute then I would happily give it to TL, but unfortunately I don't.
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I rated this blog a 1 because it's just bad. Everyone *has* to contribute? Really?
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What the hell does this have to do with consumerism...
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On February 08 2010 10:05 sixghost wrote:
What the hell does this have to do with consumerism...
Also, this.
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@Jalstar
Okay now read the first page again third reply zatic explained that the first quote isn't possible the observer has to control too many things at once that they would not be able to manage all of that and commentating at the same time.
For example he took like 20 seconds to react on terran's drop on jf's 7oclock expo. And terran was yellow, it was so obvious on the minimap, and was thinking "wtf the only thing he has to do is watching the minimap, how can't he see this?"
Observing isn't easy as I said try it sometime belittling what the observer is doing by saying all he has to do is watch the minimap is shortminded.
Carnac's post wasnt immature at all he quoted the one that you quoted and it's reasonable because you can't compare Carnac and intrigue's performance to the Korean observers unless you give them equal conditions. The korean observer have a tv studio they are paid they're all in the same room able to communicate easier so people criticizing his performance and saying it's easy and why can't he just be mroe like the Koreans is unreasonable.
On February 08 2010 10:05 rushz0rz wrote:
I rated this blog a 1 because it's just bad. Everyone *has* to contribute? Really?
Read it again, you can contribute to the community by being a part of it. I even said you don't have to run events or anything like that.
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In those games the observer missed two potentially game chancing battles were on both sides more than 30 supply was lost. Now I never posted in that thread because it's pointless to complain and the observer already knows what he did wrong. You even saw him frantically moving his mouse across the mini map somehow missing the colours of large armies.
But wtf has this to do with consumerism? You even know what that word is used for? And even if this is an example of overly consumerism, how has it gone too far. Only about 3000 to 4000 people watch this live. Donno about downloads. There's over 6 billion people on this planet.
So far many of my attempts to educate people here on TL, which I have done politely so far, has been getting me tons of grief, mostly from teenager airheads. Why would I try to actively contribute to those people even more? And I don't want those people to try to contribute either. Then you get those Asian girl posts and silly K pop stuff..
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I don't get it. No one cares if the observer has watched the games before the broadcast. So I suggest the observers watch the replays before the broadcast. That's a pretty huge advantage over the korean observers, if you ask me.
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I think it's actually good to have complaints like this so the TSL organizers would know what to do to improve in the future. They should always be aware of what kind of problems the viewers are having and properly address them. It's the only way to perfection. (Obviously, nothing can be perfect but perfection is always a good goal to strive towards.)
The TSL is still by far the best run foreigner Starcraft tournament anyway and I'm grateful for that.
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You need a balance between the two.
So this OP and the other OP are too extreme.
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Consumerism - the fact or practice of an increasing consumption of goods
Yes there are other definitions but this is the one I was referring to.
People show up to this community and they want to see good VODs they want to see the casts of the events they want to see it perfect everyone does. But the fact is how many of these people participate in the community? Then the people who mostly consume ie watch without participating complain in non constructive manners? Fine you're free to watch TL puts it up for free go ahead but if you're going to take issue then try and make your criticisms more constructive.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Seriously.
It's time some of us got over ourselves and realized how unbelievably amazing and unique and special the TSL is. Observing is hard, don't be an selfish idiot.
And that goes for people complaining about the casting too.
There's a difference between constructive criticism, and whining like you're owed something.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
This attitude has been around for a pretty long time. I remember when I translated live for Sea's TL attack, some people criticized me for poor translation skills when I had never done a live translation before and I gave it my best shot. Really sucks but some people can't seem to appreciate things others do for them.
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On February 08 2010 10:30 infinity21 wrote:
This attitude has been around for a pretty long time. I remember when I translated live for Sea's TL attack, some people criticized me for poor translation skills when I had never done a live translation before and I gave it my best shot. Really sucks but some people can't seem to appreciate things others do for them.
See I remember this and I remember that it was one of my favorite TL Attacks and frankly I thought you did great. Weren't you the one who had to translate for blizzard at Blizzcon? It's this kind of stuff that bothers me, okay so maybe you made a few mistakes but it would not have been possible if it weren't for you helping out.
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The people act as if the observer can be omniscient and sense things perfectly -_-
Mistakes happen, but observing is extremely fucking hard because so much happens in a StarCraft game, and people don't realize the sacrifices the observer has to make just to increase the quality of the TSL.
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I think as long as a comment is not insulting, it's okay. As a contributor you can't be afraid of people pointing out your mistakes. You just have to take from them what you can, and decide whether or not you plan to try to refine your ability.
The obsing CAN be improved, I think that's unquestionable. Staring at an idle SCV is not more interesting than the battle that I can only see on the minimap.
That said, he is doing a pretty good job, and no one is perfect. He just needs more practice and experience. When people get irritated that he's not watching battles, he should take that into consideration in the future and try to be proactive about watching the battles. Subtle screen positioning could be improved too (such as watching the correct parts of a battle).
I think of myself as someone who contributes to TL, and I know I am happy to hear people tell me what parts they felt need improvement. That's because as a contributor to TL, and as an artist in general, you have to respect that the whole reason you do anything is FOR your audience. So why not consider how you can be better in the future. Of course you don't have to take comments as orders, in the end you decide how you think your work is best. Just don't whine when not every comment you receive is a pat on the back. Don't get defensive and lose sight of the reason you're even here.
PS: Also don't take random comments from anonymous strangers like "This sucks" to heart. Seriously, it's the internet. Mods can just ban people who make dumb comments like that.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 08 2010 10:35 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 10:30 infinity21 wrote:
This attitude has been around for a pretty long time. I remember when I translated live for Sea's TL attack, some people criticized me for poor translation skills when I had never done a live translation before and I gave it my best shot. Really sucks but some people can't seem to appreciate things others do for them. See I remember this and I remember that it was one of my favorite TL Attacks and frankly I thought you did great. Weren't you the one who had to translate for blizzard at Blizzcon? It's this kind of stuff that bothers me, okay so maybe you made a few mistakes but it would not have been possible if it weren't for you helping out.
nono that was LosingID8 
thanks for the support. I think it's just a few outspoken people who ruin it for all the contributors and some ppl will always bandwagon
For today's TSL games -- sure, I noticed some things that chill/day/carnac didn't notice but I'm not doing a live cast with the pressure of thousands of viewers (probably) and a sponsor to boot. I think it's warranted to tell them that there are still things to be improved but to say "u suck. koreans do better" is just stupid.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On February 08 2010 10:05 rushz0rz wrote:
I rated this blog a 1 because it's just bad. Everyone *has* to contribute? Really?
Read the Commandments; the fourth one in particular.
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if nothing else we contribute hits to TL
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I think it's just a few outspoken people who ruin it for all the contributors and some ppl will always bandwagon
For as many posters who are just totally negative and unhelpful, there are plenty of posters who are obnoxiously positive about everything. It's safe to say both can easily be disregarded. I try to have thick enough skin that only someone I respect can affect me. It's not something I've always been good at, as someone who has known me a long time might understand, but it's a skill you develop when you put yourself out to be judged a lot.
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Observing properly is a really fucking hard job, lol. I suck at it doing it myself watching reps.
Korean progaming, which those idiot posters are holding as the standard, it would seem, have people who have hundreds of pro level games in experience. The casters are mostly former pros, and as far as I know, all the observers themselves are former progamers as well.
They also have the advantage of having the casters see what the observer is seeing. The casters base their commentary on what they're being shown, which leads to a much smoother cast overall.
The observers in Korea are good because they themselves have that deep understanding of gameflow which no one outside of Korea has, to be honest. Beyond that, they're not just observing, they're presenting the game to the audience. They're not simply looking at what they want to see, but they're presenting what aspects of the game would be important not only for the audience to see, but for the casters to see in order to properly commentate the game so as to properly convey all the aspects important to understanding that game.
TSL2 doesn't have that kind of luxury...they're doing the best they can, and they're doing damn well at it.
Watching that game was frustrating for me as well, but I'm not expecting OGN/MBC level casts...
OP...don't expect people to really understand any of that. People are retarded, and worst of all, they don't really seem to understand that this is a nonprofit thing...nearly all the money going into the TSL is going directly out to prize money...the staff is all volunteer.
That said, you also have to understand that the intent of running an event like the TSL is to bring in low-post count newbies. Its aim is to revitalize SC outside of Korea. They can't be ignored. The overall community is strong, but you have to admit it, were it not for these kinds of events, would have been long dead.
We need idiots to keep going. Let them speak up and make their stupid comments. They won't go away just because the technical aspects of the tournament aren't Korean progaming status. They'll bitch and moan, but in the end, they're gonna keep watching, and if they're the kind of people we want in our community, they'll stick around just for the love of the game.
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On February 08 2010 10:52 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +I think it's just a few outspoken people who ruin it for all the contributors and some ppl will always bandwagon For as many posters who are just totally negative and unhelpful, there are plenty of posters who are obnoxiously positive about everything. It's safe to say both can easily be disregarded. I try to have thick enough skin that only someone I respect can affect me. It's not something I've always been good at, as someone who has known me a long time might understand, but it's a skill you develop when you put yourself out to be judged a lot.
If you mean "obnoxiously positive" to refer to the weird new wave of ass-kissing posters who have been popping up all over, then good god, I feel you. -_-
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Yeah, it is what I mean lol.
Of course a bunch of guys doing this in their spare time aren't going to be as good as people who do it for a living, but is impossible not to compare TSL to it, because it's exactly what we're striving for, even if it's impossible.
I think it's easy for some people watching to think 'I could observe better than this! :@' and maybe that'd be true. But that's not Carnac's only job, I think. He has to worry about making sure everything is running properly, the sound is okay, continually be in touch with Kennigit and others who are keeping him up to date to try and run things smoothly... That's probably quite distracting and a pretty hard thing to overcome. It's not a reason to be satisfied, but it's another item on the list of reasons we should forgive little mistakes, right up there with 'they're not being paid' and 'they're trying really hard.'
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People are lazy, brah. No mystery there. Add a bit of social awkwardness and an IQ of about 80 and you have a freeloader who also posts dumb shit like demanding an observer do a better job.
Observer missed some stuff but it happens. Pretty surprised to see someone comment on it.
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I felt like the commentators were missing more stuff than the observer :D.
Still I don't get where you got consumerism, people are just less polite on the internet and will speak up, often more aggressively than they would in a real life situation.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 08 2010 10:52 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +I think it's just a few outspoken people who ruin it for all the contributors and some ppl will always bandwagon For as many posters who are just totally negative and unhelpful, there are plenty of posters who are obnoxiously positive about everything. It's safe to say both can easily be disregarded. I try to have thick enough skin that only someone I respect can affect me. It's not something I've always been good at, as someone who has known me a long time might understand, but it's a skill you develop when you put yourself out to be judged a lot.
Yeah I know what you mean. But I still want to discourage those overly negative people from posting on these forums. I understand that being able to ignore bad criticism is a useful skill to learn but some people just want to contribute and not have to filter through crap responses.
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On February 08 2010 10:09 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:@Jalstar Okay now read the first page again third reply zatic explained that the first quote isn't possible the observer has to control too many things at once that they would not be able to manage all of that and commentating at the same time. Show nested quote +For example he took like 20 seconds to react on terran's drop on jf's 7oclock expo. And terran was yellow, it was so obvious on the minimap, and was thinking "wtf the only thing he has to do is watching the minimap, how can't he see this?" Observing isn't easy as I said try it sometime belittling what the observer is doing by saying all he has to do is watch the minimap is shortminded. Carnac's post wasnt immature at all he quoted the one that you quoted and it's reasonable because you can't compare Carnac and intrigue's performance to the Korean observers unless you give them equal conditions. The korean observer have a tv studio they are paid they're all in the same room able to communicate easier so people criticizing his performance and saying it's easy and why can't he just be mroe like the Koreans is unreasonable. Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 10:05 rushz0rz wrote:
I rated this blog a 1 because it's just bad. Everyone *has* to contribute? Really? Read it again, you can contribute to the community by being a part of it. I even said you don't have to run events or anything like that.
The observers probably also have to run the streams and whatnot, whereas in Korea it seems likely that all they are doing it going where the observers are talking about and have no other considerations.
I agree, people have to go the right way about criticising. Even though it's valid because the quality of the show is being compromised by loose observer work and it needs to be dealt with, consider the conditions better before making such a post so you don't seem a fool. Especially making a blog or thread about it and thereby making it public is just asking for random people bashing on the hard work put in - what's wrong with a private email or PM?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Carnac/intrigue do an incredible job, even though we tear them to shreds in the staff forums. Every single time we broadcast we review it and give our feedback, going over every little detail that wasn't up to our (very high) standards. The difference between our criticism and the criticism in the thread from the op is that ours is constructive and in such a manner so that the next cast we do is even better. Carnac is a hero, and his observing today was incredible <3
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i'm watching mondragon/brat at the moment and everything's much smoother in terms of synchronization, although there's still a bit of room for improvement (a few minor skirmishes missed)
but overall very well done, hopefully it keeps getting better and better
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On February 08 2010 10:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 10:05 rushz0rz wrote:
I rated this blog a 1 because it's just bad. Everyone *has* to contribute? Really? Read the Commandments; the fourth one in particular.
I don't really consider a good post or a funny post a "contribution."
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United States24613 Posts
On February 08 2010 12:18 rushz0rz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 10:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 08 2010 10:05 rushz0rz wrote:
I rated this blog a 1 because it's just bad. Everyone *has* to contribute? Really? Read the Commandments; the fourth one in particular. I don't really consider a good post or a funny post a "contribution."
Er perhaps, but you should probably apologize for your earlier comment towards raelcun.... there's nothing wrong with him saying that you shouldn't be complaining if you aren't contributing (which is what many people did).
I definitely got the vibe that the casters were the ones who were goofing today... but I don't blame them or anything. What they do is incredibly difficult and I couldn't do 1/10 the job they do. Occasionally they miss a shuttle get sniped by goons... but when they realize their mistake they recover immediately. If I was casting and I didn't notice it, I wouldn't immediately think "oh that shuttle I saw earlier must have been sniped at point x" but Day clearly did. I <3 you guys who volunteer for the TSL.
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On February 08 2010 11:47 Nytefish wrote:
Still I don't get where you got consumerism, people are just less polite on the internet and will speak up, often more aggressively than they would in a real life situation.
I think is the root of the issue. A message board like this serves as a proxy, which protects posters from any real ramifications resulting from what they say. You'll often find that those who are abusing that protection (complainers, etc) have serious self-esteem and ego issues, and use online identities to boost the latter. Considering the fact that the majority of this community is made up of teenage males, it isn't surprising you see so much negativity.
All that said, I'm sure reading negative comments on your tournament threads just moments after a cast is frustrating at the very least, and probably infuriating. Pouring your free time and energy into something 'thins out your skin', so to speak, and makes it difficult to ignore the negativity.
Personally, in times like these I look to those people who are 'overly positive' for support, if only to get me through until I can collect my thoughts about the issue. You may think it's too enthusiastic to really be genuine, but just remember that not everyone online is a cynic, and that sometimes there are people who are just very thankful for the work you've done.
Thanks TSL team -
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I think the problem is that Carnac gets too carried away in the game watching the action or whatever thing he is watching. Instead, he should just be watching the minimap (almost entirely) for changes and listening for the casters audible cues on where to direct his main screen.
It is not as easy as it sounds because you still need to be clicking around on structures for upgrades and units etc, so we can be map aware the entire game. And at the same time following around army movements.
PS- Have you guys thought about using the 4x screen chaos plugin for these? It's really good for watching reps and obsing games, quality might be an issue though.
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On February 08 2010 12:18 rushz0rz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 10:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 08 2010 10:05 rushz0rz wrote:
I rated this blog a 1 because it's just bad. Everyone *has* to contribute? Really? Read the Commandments; the fourth one in particular. I don't really consider a good post or a funny post a "contribution."
TL does and Raelcun's post made it clear that he does, so what does your opinion on it have to do with anything?
Rael: Everyone has to do x, which includes y
You: Every *has* to do x?
10 Commandments: Yes
You: I don't consider y part of x.
...
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On February 08 2010 14:43 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 12:18 rushz0rz wrote:On February 08 2010 10:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 08 2010 10:05 rushz0rz wrote:
I rated this blog a 1 because it's just bad. Everyone *has* to contribute? Really? Read the Commandments; the fourth one in particular. I don't really consider a good post or a funny post a "contribution." TL does and Raelcun's post made it clear that he does, so what does your opinion on it have to do with anything? Rael: Everyone has to do x, which includes y You: Every *has* to do x? 10 Commandments: Yes You: I don't consider y part of x. ...
What I mean is a good or funny post shouldn't be something sought for it, it should just be. Admins shouldn't have to enforce such a rule, because everyone should do it in the first place.
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And what should we do with the people who don't do it?
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On February 08 2010 14:50 SonuvBob wrote:
And what should we do with the people who don't do it?
Purge.
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On February 08 2010 14:45 rushz0rz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 14:43 SonuvBob wrote:On February 08 2010 12:18 rushz0rz wrote:On February 08 2010 10:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 08 2010 10:05 rushz0rz wrote:
I rated this blog a 1 because it's just bad. Everyone *has* to contribute? Really? Read the Commandments; the fourth one in particular. I don't really consider a good post or a funny post a "contribution." TL does and Raelcun's post made it clear that he does, so what does your opinion on it have to do with anything? Rael: Everyone has to do x, which includes y You: Every *has* to do x? 10 Commandments: Yes You: I don't consider y part of x. ... What I mean is a good or funny post shouldn't be something sought for it, it should just be. Admins shouldn't have to enforce such a rule, because everyone should do it in the first place.
I should definitely be banned then...and more than half of the known guys around here.
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EPT
