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Okay so this is a blog because some will find it offensive. I Saw this thread and it greatly disturbed me..
And now I shall tell you why, most of the people in the first part of the thread before TL stepped up and started giving some serious constructive criticism are low post count people who watch these events and give nothing back. Then when they see some mistake by these people who are donating their time for US and all you can do is bitch about how it wasn't perfect?
This has gone way too far, how many of you reading this right now have ever hosted a tournament. Any tournament doesn't even have to be on iCCup I mean any little scrub tournament on USEast a tournament in your dorm or at at LAN. It isn't easy, how many of you have ever streamed live? Shit goes wrong and to see people who I'm pretty sure have never done any of that have never even tried it or even THOUGHT about doing it themselves complaining because it wasn't perfect pisses me the fuck off.
This isn't about being an admin I'm writing this as a member of Team Liquid there used to be a sense that ever member of TL had to contribute something. Some of them made maps, others were good at posting in the strategy forum sharing their ideas, others made fun events or games. But the vast majority of contributing something was just by making quality posts because this forum is our community. So seriously stop being so selfish and just think about it before you post it guys. If you re-read your post and it's all me me me me it wasn't what I wanted then just hit the back button on your browser or try and rewrite it so that you can offer something HELPFUL to the people who are reading it.
I'm not saying everyone has to go out and start streaming or run community events, just try and contribute better posts to our community; because it is OUR community, take some ownership in it. Instead of criticizing people for making a mistake in a completely unhelpful manner try giving suggestions on how they might be able to fix mistakes. Post a quick thank you to the people who are donating their time for you even if they did make a mistake because the alternative is that they could just not do it.
Our society has moved into consumerism everyone wants to just consume goods and nobody wants to produce. The mindset that everyone else has to provide you the services that you want and all you can do is complain when these services don't measure up to what you've come to expect disturbs me greatly.
 
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Refusing to fix something and saying "well don't complain, it's free" is just about the worst attitude an organizer can have. I'm glad the TSL people are stepping up to the plate to make it as perfect as possible with the limited resources available.
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Thanks for posting this. I 100% agree, and i will say this:
Because SC2 is on the horizon, TL and other SC websites are now flooded with new kids. These people have no idea about SC history, or the SC community. It makes me sad that they can somehow think the SC community is anything like other 'game' communities. Like MLG or what not.
I would hope that everyone takes the time to read this, because this is the sad truth.
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I'm not saying you can't complain I'm saying do it in a better manner. Complain and give constructive criticism say how it can be made better. Be very clear on WHY you didn't like it don't just say "it sucked." I'm tired of the shallow unhelpful complaints go ahead and complain you have the right to complain but you owe it to the community to do it in a constructive way.
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There was plenty of constructive criticism on page 1:
I agree. The observer seems to miss many critical moments. There was an instance where a recall was in place and it wasn't located until the attack was over. I think it would be better if the casters were controlling the observer in sync with their casts.
For example he took like 20 seconds to react on terran's drop on jf's 7oclock expo. And terran was yellow, it was so obvious on the minimap, and was thinking "wtf the only thing he has to do is watching the minimap, how can't he see this?"
I'll compare with the Korean observers. They observe the map in a calm, steady way, clicking certain buildings and units, and moving to certain areas that are important as the game progresses. They highlight certain areas, and work as a team with the commentators to help the people better watch and understand the game.
For the TSL in general, not just this set, I cannot list the number of times the observer has been looking somewhere completely different for 30 seconds, while the commentators are talking and philosophizing about something else.
Thanks guys, please get someone else or make improvements on the one now... as i said, my only real complaint with this awesome tourney.
I'd say the most immature post award on page 1 went to Carnac himself:
Why dont you provide us with a TV studio and pay for everyone (players & casters) to do it from there?
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On February 08 2010 09:55 jalstar wrote:There was plenty of constructive criticism on page 1: Show nested quote +I agree. The observer seems to miss many critical moments. There was an instance where a recall was in place and it wasn't located until the attack was over. I think it would be better if the casters were controlling the observer in sync with their casts. Show nested quote +For example he took like 20 seconds to react on terran's drop on jf's 7oclock expo. And terran was yellow, it was so obvious on the minimap, and was thinking "wtf the only thing he has to do is watching the minimap, how can't he see this?" Show nested quote +I'll compare with the Korean observers. They observe the map in a calm, steady way, clicking certain buildings and units, and moving to certain areas that are important as the game progresses. They highlight certain areas, and work as a team with the commentators to help the people better watch and understand the game.
For the TSL in general, not just this set, I cannot list the number of times the observer has been looking somewhere completely different for 30 seconds, while the commentators are talking and philosophizing about something else.
Thanks guys, please get someone else or make improvements on the one now... as i said, my only real complaint with this awesome tourney. I'd say the most immature post award on page 1 went to Carnac himself: Show nested quote +Why dont you provide us with a TV studio and pay for everyone (players & casters) to do it from there?
He said that because he was being compared to a Korean observer.
I would take the same attitude if I was putting my time into providing something for free and there was a thread telling you to improve, and asking to be replaced. What the fuck.
In reply to the OP, I agree to an extent but there are plenty of people like me who join this site and don't have the time to contribute anything worthwhile or don't have anything to contribute and just want to watch some good starcraft. If I had something to contribute then I would happily give it to TL, but unfortunately I don't.
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I rated this blog a 1 because it's just bad. Everyone *has* to contribute? Really?
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What the hell does this have to do with consumerism...
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On February 08 2010 10:05 sixghost wrote:
What the hell does this have to do with consumerism...
Also, this.
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@Jalstar
Okay now read the first page again third reply zatic explained that the first quote isn't possible the observer has to control too many things at once that they would not be able to manage all of that and commentating at the same time.
For example he took like 20 seconds to react on terran's drop on jf's 7oclock expo. And terran was yellow, it was so obvious on the minimap, and was thinking "wtf the only thing he has to do is watching the minimap, how can't he see this?"
Observing isn't easy as I said try it sometime belittling what the observer is doing by saying all he has to do is watch the minimap is shortminded.
Carnac's post wasnt immature at all he quoted the one that you quoted and it's reasonable because you can't compare Carnac and intrigue's performance to the Korean observers unless you give them equal conditions. The korean observer have a tv studio they are paid they're all in the same room able to communicate easier so people criticizing his performance and saying it's easy and why can't he just be mroe like the Koreans is unreasonable.
On February 08 2010 10:05 rushz0rz wrote:
I rated this blog a 1 because it's just bad. Everyone *has* to contribute? Really?
Read it again, you can contribute to the community by being a part of it. I even said you don't have to run events or anything like that.
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In those games the observer missed two potentially game chancing battles were on both sides more than 30 supply was lost. Now I never posted in that thread because it's pointless to complain and the observer already knows what he did wrong. You even saw him frantically moving his mouse across the mini map somehow missing the colours of large armies.
But wtf has this to do with consumerism? You even know what that word is used for? And even if this is an example of overly consumerism, how has it gone too far. Only about 3000 to 4000 people watch this live. Donno about downloads. There's over 6 billion people on this planet.
So far many of my attempts to educate people here on TL, which I have done politely so far, has been getting me tons of grief, mostly from teenager airheads. Why would I try to actively contribute to those people even more? And I don't want those people to try to contribute either. Then you get those Asian girl posts and silly K pop stuff..
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I don't get it. No one cares if the observer has watched the games before the broadcast. So I suggest the observers watch the replays before the broadcast. That's a pretty huge advantage over the korean observers, if you ask me.
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I think it's actually good to have complaints like this so the TSL organizers would know what to do to improve in the future. They should always be aware of what kind of problems the viewers are having and properly address them. It's the only way to perfection. (Obviously, nothing can be perfect but perfection is always a good goal to strive towards.)
The TSL is still by far the best run foreigner Starcraft tournament anyway and I'm grateful for that.
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You need a balance between the two.
So this OP and the other OP are too extreme.
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Consumerism - the fact or practice of an increasing consumption of goods
Yes there are other definitions but this is the one I was referring to.
People show up to this community and they want to see good VODs they want to see the casts of the events they want to see it perfect everyone does. But the fact is how many of these people participate in the community? Then the people who mostly consume ie watch without participating complain in non constructive manners? Fine you're free to watch TL puts it up for free go ahead but if you're going to take issue then try and make your criticisms more constructive.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Seriously.
It's time some of us got over ourselves and realized how unbelievably amazing and unique and special the TSL is. Observing is hard, don't be an selfish idiot.
And that goes for people complaining about the casting too.
There's a difference between constructive criticism, and whining like you're owed something.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
This attitude has been around for a pretty long time. I remember when I translated live for Sea's TL attack, some people criticized me for poor translation skills when I had never done a live translation before and I gave it my best shot. Really sucks but some people can't seem to appreciate things others do for them.
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On February 08 2010 10:30 infinity21 wrote:
This attitude has been around for a pretty long time. I remember when I translated live for Sea's TL attack, some people criticized me for poor translation skills when I had never done a live translation before and I gave it my best shot. Really sucks but some people can't seem to appreciate things others do for them.
See I remember this and I remember that it was one of my favorite TL Attacks and frankly I thought you did great. Weren't you the one who had to translate for blizzard at Blizzcon? It's this kind of stuff that bothers me, okay so maybe you made a few mistakes but it would not have been possible if it weren't for you helping out.
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The people act as if the observer can be omniscient and sense things perfectly -_-
Mistakes happen, but observing is extremely fucking hard because so much happens in a StarCraft game, and people don't realize the sacrifices the observer has to make just to increase the quality of the TSL.
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I think as long as a comment is not insulting, it's okay. As a contributor you can't be afraid of people pointing out your mistakes. You just have to take from them what you can, and decide whether or not you plan to try to refine your ability.
The obsing CAN be improved, I think that's unquestionable. Staring at an idle SCV is not more interesting than the battle that I can only see on the minimap.
That said, he is doing a pretty good job, and no one is perfect. He just needs more practice and experience. When people get irritated that he's not watching battles, he should take that into consideration in the future and try to be proactive about watching the battles. Subtle screen positioning could be improved too (such as watching the correct parts of a battle).
I think of myself as someone who contributes to TL, and I know I am happy to hear people tell me what parts they felt need improvement. That's because as a contributor to TL, and as an artist in general, you have to respect that the whole reason you do anything is FOR your audience. So why not consider how you can be better in the future. Of course you don't have to take comments as orders, in the end you decide how you think your work is best. Just don't whine when not every comment you receive is a pat on the back. Don't get defensive and lose sight of the reason you're even here.
PS: Also don't take random comments from anonymous strangers like "This sucks" to heart. Seriously, it's the internet. Mods can just ban people who make dumb comments like that.
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EPT
