EPTSimple Questions Simple Answers - Page 209
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
On June 18 2011 03:40 Anihc wrote: 3 gate expand is the standard PvZ build and useful to know, but I think it's a horrible build. It's not that safe, it doesn't put you ahead in econ, and you can't pressure the zerg at all. If you try to move out with you sentry heavy army, either the zerg is just going to be unphased, take his 3rd and drone up anyway, or the zerg will make 30 speedlings and you will lose all your sentries. I'd recommend 15 nex or 1 gate FE (like MC does - I don't think MC actually uses 3 gate expand anymore). To stop speedling run bys just scout and then block off the bottom of your ramp with a gateway when you see it coming. Then there are many many ways to put pressure on the zerg's 3rd, you can either go stargate, 6 gate +1 attack, or just do standard gateway+robo. It's ok for the zerg to be slightly ahead in econ, but if he tries to fully saturate all 3 bases you should just be able to go and kill him. Meanwhile you expand behind your attack. If you feel like you can't put pressure on the zerg's 3rd, you're probably doing something else wrong (i.e. your macro sucks or you don't know how to use FF), and we'll need a replay. Also the correct reaction to a hatch first is to cannon rush. Note I said reaction, you don't need to plan this from the beginning. This means that you can scout it, drop your forget at 15-16 supply, and still successfully cannon rush. A zerg should not be able to hatch first in PvZ, or he's taking a big gamble in doing so. I agree that 3 Gate is awful versus hatch first, and that either doing a much faster expand (1 gate or 15 Nexus) or early pressure is much better. However, 3 gate isn't a bad build overall. There are still a lot of Zergs who open 14 gas 14 pool for safety, and versus that, 3 gate sentry expand is a perfectly fine build; it's very safe, and if you see them undercommit to lings, yuo can switch to stalkers and/or feign an attack to put on pressure. Also, cannon rush is not the correct response to hatch-first. Pressure using your first few gateway units works well if you're not very-fast expanding yourself, but a good Zerg will put his second overlord over his expo hatch, spot the cannon rush as it comes, and stop it with drones, leaving him solidly ahead. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On June 18 2011 04:27 Kpyolysis32 wrote: Also, cannon rush is not the correct response to hatch-first. Pressure using your first few gateway units works well if you're not very-fast expanding yourself, but a good Zerg will put his second overlord over his expo hatch, spot the cannon rush as it comes, and stop it with drones, leaving him solidly ahead. I'd say it's pretty well accepted as the correct response. You chrono out zealots to protect the cannons from drones. Once they're up you've pretty much won. That's for scouting a hatch first after dropping a gate, if you're FFEing there are a variety of ways to cannon rush them, pretty much all of which are highly effective. | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On June 18 2011 05:02 Xanbatou wrote: What happens if you morph an overlord with units inside into an overseer? Or is the option greyed out and impossible when you have units in an overlord? It'll complain that you have cargo in the overlord and not morph. | ||
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Shadyf0o
63 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On June 18 2011 04:27 Kpyolysis32 wrote: I agree that 3 Gate is awful versus hatch first, and that either doing a much faster expand (1 gate or 15 Nexus) or early pressure is much better. However, 3 gate isn't a bad build overall. There are still a lot of Zergs who open 14 gas 14 pool for safety, and versus that, 3 gate sentry expand is a perfectly fine build; it's very safe, and if you see them undercommit to lings, yuo can switch to stalkers and/or feign an attack to put on pressure. Also, cannon rush is not the correct response to hatch-first. Pressure using your first few gateway units works well if you're not very-fast expanding yourself, but a good Zerg will put his second overlord over his expo hatch, spot the cannon rush as it comes, and stop it with drones, leaving him solidly ahead. 3 gate expand is not "very safe." 2 base roach/ling all-in anyone? And "putting on pressure" with sentries and a few zealots/stalkers is a joke, most zergs don't feel threatened at all and continue droning and getting their 3rd base. Lots of zergs also get a lot of mid game speedlings at that point, and if you try any sort of "sharking" at all it's basically just suicide. And you obviously don't understand how cannon rush works, no one cannon rushes anymore praying that the cannons don't get spotted, you cannon rush by fully or partially walling off cannons with pylons and the minerals. Many maps allow you to fully wall in a cannon with just 2 pylons. Even if you do miraculously stop it by pulling drones, you're not even ahead because of all the mining time you've lost. Meanwhile the protoss has been making probes the whole time, and his nexus is up as well. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 18 2011 04:06 Degiz wrote: doing like this: 9 pylon chronoboost 2 probes 12 stargate (1 zealot for block) 2 probes 100% stargate -> core 14 gas (blocking the ramp ofc) sry couldnt printscreen, its just black. For future reference: in English, the basic protoss production structure that makes ground units is called "Gateway", then its called "Warp Gate" once you upgrade it. In English "Stargate" refers to the advanced structure that produces flying units. So 9 pylon, 12 gate, core when gate finishes? This should be okay against most early ling pressure. When are you scouting, and when during the build is the ling pressure that's causing you problems? Another trick is, if your zealot is about to pop out but you need to temporarily block the choke until he gets out, you can make a pylon then cancel it, or hold position a probe (briefly) stopping the zerglings. | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On June 18 2011 05:10 Shadyf0o wrote: I have trained myself to use the grid hotkey layout and have gotten pretty fast with it. Would it be better for me to get used to the standard hotkey layout?? No. As long as all the actions you need to do are in places that you can comfortably reach, hotkey layouts are a matter of personal preference. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On June 18 2011 04:25 Teoita wrote: When playing pvz against ling baneling, what should my gateway units be? Against roaches zealots obviously suck so it's better to go mas stalker (with colossi/templar/stalkers/whatever else), does it still hold true against ling/baneling (eventually with either infestors, ultras or roaches)? A good balance is basically what you're going for, maybe minus the zealots. you need stalkers to pick off overlords, sentrys for force fields, and archons to slaughter leftover lings. Colossus will obviously help to pick a way at those ling numbers, as well. The most important part about fighting this composition is to take it in segments, and fight in a narrow space. By take it in segments I mean: delay the ground army (blink, force field, storm, or vortex if you feel like being a baller) and focus on killing the overlords full of banes, this is by far the most damaging part of this composition. making sure the fight happens in a narrow space can be difficult because your opponent has the faster units, just try staying away from large spaces in particular and use force fields to make the terrain favor you. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On June 18 2011 05:13 Anihc wrote: 3 gate expand is not "very safe." 2 base roach/ling all-in anyone? 3gate expand holds roach/ling allin, it's just hard. "safeness" of a build shouldn't be related to how easy it is to execute imo. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 18 2011 04:16 mordanis wrote: Hey all, I play sc2 on a computer that is awful. It is actually below the minimum requirements(I got screwed on upgrade timing, no new computer until decemberish), but I can play just normal except in battles. If there is more than about 30 food on either side my FPS drops to like 2. As a protoss player who is starting to play diamond level, what should I do to minimize the effects of this. I have been doing a lot of stalker colossus balls because they are pretty strong even on 1a. Have you tried turning down your graphics settings? Also, consider closing other applications while playing sc2 and/or running Game Booster or a similar optimization application. Make sure your computer is properly cooled, and if it's a laptop, consider purchasing an external fan. Other than that there's little you can do-- most compositions require a fair amount of micro, even stalker/colossus requires running the stalkers around to prevent anticolossus units like like corruptors and vikings from wrecking your day. | ||
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Degiz
Sweden3 Posts
well, i have to do something wrong, cuz i get early game killed almost every match. zerg comes with lings, terran comes with marines and protoss with zealots :s think im 2 slow for this game for now : O On June 18 2011 05:13 Blazinghand wrote: For future reference: in English, the basic protoss production structure that makes ground units is called "Gateway", then its called "Warp Gate" once you upgrade it. In English "Stargate" refers to the advanced structure that produces flying units. So 9 pylon, 12 gate, core when gate finishes? This should be okay against most early ling pressure. When are you scouting, and when during the build is the ling pressure that's causing you problems? Another trick is, if your zealot is about to pop out but you need to temporarily block the choke until he gets out, you can make a pylon then cancel it, or hold position a probe (briefly) stopping the zerglings. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On June 18 2011 05:18 Yaotzin wrote: 3gate expand holds roach/ling allin, it's just hard. "safeness" of a build shouldn't be related to how easy it is to execute imo. Yes it should. I know you can hold off the roach/ling allin with 3 gate expand but it's not easy to do so. It's still very easy to lose to it, thus making it not "safe." | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
 They siege my natural and start shelling, and at that point I have 10-12 marines and 1 maybe 2 siege tanks. I am guessing this is not an opening I should go for on this map? Because I've noticed that on Shakuras and Tal'darim it sort of works, but on Shattered Temple, Xel Naga or Metal, it flat out loses to this as you have nothing.I'm thinking to go back to iechoic for these maps. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On June 18 2011 06:03 Bleak wrote: How do you hold off the very fast siege tank+1-2 viking and some marines push in TvT when you go for a reactor rax expand? I'm out of ideas I lost so much games to this, especially on Xel'naga. Needing serious help They siege my natural and start shelling, and at that point I have 10-12 marines and 1 maybe 2 siege tanks. I am guessing this is not an opening I should go for on this map? Because I've noticed that on Shakuras and Tal'darim it sort of works, but on Shattered Temple, Xel Naga or Metal, it flat out loses to this as you have nothing.I'm thinking to go back to iechoic for these maps. This may be a case where we need a replay, I'm no terran so I can't really help you either way but someone else may need it to assist in analysis. | ||
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Greenduck
15 Posts
In the 15/17 expand I was thinking of going 6 gate timing +1 push. Is it better to go robo observer or hallucinate phoenix? If the zerg goes speedlings there isn't much I can do to scout early on and always get a bit nervous about moving out. I definately agree with you that 3 gate is more risky then people think. I play zerg in mostly high diamond and I find it is really trendy these days to get a strong economy off 2 base then fling zerlings and roaches until you use up all your ff while they expand to a 3rd. I'm getting sick of being smashed by these pushes since his early hyper droning outpaces my economy and your suggestions should really help with this. | ||
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Redman
Canada88 Posts
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RyanRushia
United States2748 Posts
On June 18 2011 08:15 Greenduck wrote: Thank you everyone for your advice. Anihc, I think yours was the most pointed towards my question but I do have a couple more quick questions when you get a chance. In the 15/17 expand I was thinking of going 6 gate timing +1 push. Is it better to go robo observer or hallucinate phoenix? If the zerg goes speedlings there isn't much I can do to scout early on and always get a bit nervous about moving out. I definately agree with you that 3 gate is more risky then people think. I play zerg in mostly high diamond and I find it is really trendy these days to get a strong economy off 2 base then fling zerlings and roaches until you use up all your ff while they expand to a 3rd. I'm getting sick of being smashed by these pushes since his early hyper droning outpaces my economy and your suggestions should really help with this. hallucinate phoenix over robo observer. cheaper and quicker scouting timing, plus hallucinate phoenix quicker move speed and doesnt require additional building to be made. | ||
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RyanRushia
United States2748 Posts
On June 18 2011 10:24 Redman wrote: So many players stack 2 workers on the closest mineral patches early on in the game. How much of an advantage is this? unsure as to the actual mineral increase as i have not done the math or anything, however if you think about it when you get up to 10 or 11 probes and just have them rallying to one mineral patch, theres valuable time wasted when they are re-aligning. therefore if you stack 2 workers on close mineral patches early it also opens up an additional patch for easier rally and immediate mining edit: note this is my personal theory on why i do it, if someone is able to come up with a mathematical explanation that shows there is indeed a mineral boost based on position then they're likely more qualified to answer! | ||
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