EPT
Zergs doin' it wrong ZvP
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
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Trowabarton756
United States870 Posts
I prefer a ling/muta based zvp ala savior style because its very mobile and when you get enough mutas you can easily 1-shot buildings or colossi and basically run amock while taking map control expanding and getting your upgrades started.... that said roach based zvp is not that bad, just gotta use it right and engage at the proper areas and basically remax after each wave and slowly wear them down ala sauron style(gogogo julyzerg!) | ||
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green.at
Austria1459 Posts
I'm talking about roach hydra corrupter 1a-syndrome. sry but you're too late to the party. | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 09:42 Trowabarton756 wrote: Mmmm idra comes to mind. I prefer a ling/muta based zvp ala savior style because its very mobile and when you get enough mutas you can easily 1-shot buildings or colossi and basically run amock while taking map control expanding and getting your upgrades started.... that said roach based zvp is not that bad, just gotta use it right and engage at the proper areas and basically remax after each wave and slowly wear them down ala sauron style(gogogo julyzerg!) Mm, I love the ling muta style. I saw Dimaga in a sennheiser cup or something, just rolling protoss left and right with mass mass ling muta, it was beautiful. I agree with the last part of your post too, but zergs i'm talking about use a "one-punch win" style of roach hydra, where they put all their eggs in one basket (or all chance of winning the game in one attack). | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
Yup, as I said, real pro zergs aren't doing this, but on ladder and semi-pro to amateur levels it's still far too common, imo. | ||
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
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Geovu
Estonia1344 Posts
I either get "herp derp I 6 pool" zergs or "herp derp I maek raoch and atak u" zergs. Where can I find these lazy-ass "I want to expo and do nothing else" Zergs that you seem to be referencing? | ||
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
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Vlare
748 Posts
As for him "attacking you". You played a super P favored map in PvZ, and said "Z let me up to 3 bases". When it is actually extremely difficult for Z to deny the 3rd on that map. Let alone attacking into that choke early on with FF's, it's actually quite easy for protoss to defend unless you do some sort of high aggression burrow move bust, and even this is easilly dealt with if protoss scouts properly. ZvP is tricky, and while I do agree with you that many zergs are too passive and it throws games as a result. I do not think your story really merits a blog worthy of a discussion. glhf. | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On May 29 2011 11:26 Advocado wrote: People go Roach hydra cause it's the best way to survive the mid game protoss pushes. Good job simplifying the entire debate though. ^^ This It's not like they see a protoss deathball and only have 65 supply, then decide to make roach, corrupter, hydra to attack the deathball. They need the roaches to prevent early deaths and then the hydras to prevent midgame deaths. Unless their is an engagement, they have these units remaining into the late game. They lose their effectiveness while protoss's army composition only gets stronger. No zerg wants to use roach/hydra/corrupter against a deathball, but it used to be where they wound up more frequently. A lot of factors to into army composition. | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
On May 29 2011 12:34 I_Love_Bacon wrote: ^^ This It's not like they see a protoss deathball and only have 65 supply, then decide to make roach, corrupter, hydra to attack the deathball. They need the roaches to prevent early deaths and then the hydras to prevent midgame deaths. Unless their is an engagement, they have these units remaining into the late game. They lose their effectiveness while protoss's army composition only gets stronger. No zerg wants to use roach/hydra/corrupter against a deathball, but it used to be where they wound up more frequently. A lot of factors to into army composition. Zerg only has to go hydra's vs a heavy gateway style. Going hydra against a robo rush is rather dumb unless you're going for a bust or big drop :\ The only other time Z should respond with hydra's is with heavy air play, but an air opener can be handled with spores/queens. | ||
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wonderwall
New Zealand695 Posts
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SweetAs
New Zealand290 Posts
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On May 29 2011 12:47 Vlare wrote: Zerg only has to go hydra's vs a heavy gateway style. Going hydra against a robo rush is rather dumb unless you're going for a bust or big drop :\ The only other time Z should respond with hydra's is with heavy air play, but an air opener can be handled with spores/queens. We're generalizing here, and of course you don't see large numbers of hydras in zvp if it's ball vs ball nearing the end. The entire issue boils down to the fact that zerg do what they can and protoss do what they can. Sometimes through either bad maps or bad play, the end result can lead a zerg feeling pigeon-holed into a bad army composition against a maxed protoss ball. At that point, they will lose and not be happy about it. There are a large number of factors that contribute to how their final unit combination is achieved and simply making the blanket statement that zergs are "doin' it wrong" is just silly. If you ever lose a game you're "doin' it wrong." | ||
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ThE_OsToJiY
Canada1167 Posts
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Thrnchkg
United States16 Posts
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 11:27 Vlare wrote: So what you're saying is, you played someone who sucks. Beat them. And are upset because you are playing him ? perhaps if you ladder more you will be matched against opponents who aren't as awful as this guy =) As for him "attacking you". You played a super P favored map in PvZ, and said "Z let me up to 3 bases". When it is actually extremely difficult for Z to deny the 3rd on that map. Let alone attacking into that choke early on with FF's, it's actually quite easy for protoss to defend unless you do some sort of high aggression burrow move bust, and even this is easilly dealt with if protoss scouts properly. ZvP is tricky, and while I do agree with you that many zergs are too passive and it throws games as a result. I do not think your story really merits a blog worthy of a discussion. glhf. I agree that my opponent sucked, but the point is that I see far too many of people like that guy (even at higher levels) My third was, of course, the previously island expo at shattered temple. There's two ways into this base, he never even tried to attack it from the other angle. I'm not entirely alone on the topic, SoTG ep. 40 HuK talks about it, and that's at a pro level. Im saying that zergs need to use their harassment capabilities more. Just researching drop/burrow movement can make your roaches/hydras incredible harassment units (watch mondragon, copy that). And finally, the blog was not supposed to be me retelling a mighty tale of my laddering prowess, it was me venting on the way Zergs have been handling ZvP. | ||
SirJolt
the Dagon Knight4000 Posts
Sorry if this Is a silly question, I just can't get my head around it. | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 14:52 I_Love_Bacon wrote: We're generalizing here, and of course you don't see large numbers of hydras in zvp if it's ball vs ball nearing the end. The entire issue boils down to the fact that zerg do what they can and protoss do what they can. Sometimes through either bad maps or bad play, the end result can lead a zerg feeling pigeon-holed into a bad army composition against a maxed protoss ball. At that point, they will lose and not be happy about it. There are a large number of factors that contribute to how their final unit combination is achieved and simply making the blanket statement that zergs are "doin' it wrong" is just silly. If you ever lose a game you're "doin' it wrong." If you're pigeon-holed (or feeling like it) into pure roaches or roach hydra (anything that can't handle a death ball) then you can at least use this composition to its fullest potential. Sitting on it and expanding, or attacking into a toss deathball is not using it to its fullest potential. MrBitter says this all the time to his students, and when casting NASL. You cannot let toss get three uncontested bases, and you should not face a toss ball head on with roach hydra. Roach hydra/ling drops, nydus, counterattacks, etc etc. If you have 50 lings just chilling, and you know they won't be of any use attacking his army (and you've seen him move out ofc) then counterattack his third, do something. Too many Zergs are loosing due to overly passive play, they are the ones "doin' it wrong" the title may have been misleading. I was amazed, AMAZED when I first saw Mondragon play in the TSL. Holy shit, he's a god. Especially first game vs Cruncher, it seemed like he at all points in time had about 20 roaches burrowed at crunchers expo's. Also second game of IdrA vs cruncher is a great example. Though that game was focused entirely around doing drops early on, while what i'm talking about is drops later on as a multipronged harassment tool. | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 11:26 Advocado wrote: People go Roach hydra cause it's the best way to survive the mid game protoss pushes. Good job simplifying the entire debate though. How did I simplify it, my sarcastic, Danish friend?  Perhaps I failed to mention the exact reason why roach hydra is used in the mid game. Uh oh. | ||
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