EPT
Zergs doin' it wrong ZvP
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
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Trowabarton756
United States870 Posts
I prefer a ling/muta based zvp ala savior style because its very mobile and when you get enough mutas you can easily 1-shot buildings or colossi and basically run amock while taking map control expanding and getting your upgrades started.... that said roach based zvp is not that bad, just gotta use it right and engage at the proper areas and basically remax after each wave and slowly wear them down ala sauron style(gogogo julyzerg!) | ||
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green.at
Austria1459 Posts
I'm talking about roach hydra corrupter 1a-syndrome. sry but you're too late to the party. | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 09:42 Trowabarton756 wrote: Mmmm idra comes to mind. I prefer a ling/muta based zvp ala savior style because its very mobile and when you get enough mutas you can easily 1-shot buildings or colossi and basically run amock while taking map control expanding and getting your upgrades started.... that said roach based zvp is not that bad, just gotta use it right and engage at the proper areas and basically remax after each wave and slowly wear them down ala sauron style(gogogo julyzerg!) Mm, I love the ling muta style. I saw Dimaga in a sennheiser cup or something, just rolling protoss left and right with mass mass ling muta, it was beautiful. I agree with the last part of your post too, but zergs i'm talking about use a "one-punch win" style of roach hydra, where they put all their eggs in one basket (or all chance of winning the game in one attack). | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
Yup, as I said, real pro zergs aren't doing this, but on ladder and semi-pro to amateur levels it's still far too common, imo. | ||
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
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Geovu
Estonia1344 Posts
I either get "herp derp I 6 pool" zergs or "herp derp I maek raoch and atak u" zergs. Where can I find these lazy-ass "I want to expo and do nothing else" Zergs that you seem to be referencing? | ||
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
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Vlare
748 Posts
As for him "attacking you". You played a super P favored map in PvZ, and said "Z let me up to 3 bases". When it is actually extremely difficult for Z to deny the 3rd on that map. Let alone attacking into that choke early on with FF's, it's actually quite easy for protoss to defend unless you do some sort of high aggression burrow move bust, and even this is easilly dealt with if protoss scouts properly. ZvP is tricky, and while I do agree with you that many zergs are too passive and it throws games as a result. I do not think your story really merits a blog worthy of a discussion. glhf. | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On May 29 2011 11:26 Advocado wrote: People go Roach hydra cause it's the best way to survive the mid game protoss pushes. Good job simplifying the entire debate though. ^^ This It's not like they see a protoss deathball and only have 65 supply, then decide to make roach, corrupter, hydra to attack the deathball. They need the roaches to prevent early deaths and then the hydras to prevent midgame deaths. Unless their is an engagement, they have these units remaining into the late game. They lose their effectiveness while protoss's army composition only gets stronger. No zerg wants to use roach/hydra/corrupter against a deathball, but it used to be where they wound up more frequently. A lot of factors to into army composition. | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
On May 29 2011 12:34 I_Love_Bacon wrote: ^^ This It's not like they see a protoss deathball and only have 65 supply, then decide to make roach, corrupter, hydra to attack the deathball. They need the roaches to prevent early deaths and then the hydras to prevent midgame deaths. Unless their is an engagement, they have these units remaining into the late game. They lose their effectiveness while protoss's army composition only gets stronger. No zerg wants to use roach/hydra/corrupter against a deathball, but it used to be where they wound up more frequently. A lot of factors to into army composition. Zerg only has to go hydra's vs a heavy gateway style. Going hydra against a robo rush is rather dumb unless you're going for a bust or big drop :\ The only other time Z should respond with hydra's is with heavy air play, but an air opener can be handled with spores/queens. | ||
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wonderwall
New Zealand695 Posts
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SweetAs
New Zealand290 Posts
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On May 29 2011 12:47 Vlare wrote: Zerg only has to go hydra's vs a heavy gateway style. Going hydra against a robo rush is rather dumb unless you're going for a bust or big drop :\ The only other time Z should respond with hydra's is with heavy air play, but an air opener can be handled with spores/queens. We're generalizing here, and of course you don't see large numbers of hydras in zvp if it's ball vs ball nearing the end. The entire issue boils down to the fact that zerg do what they can and protoss do what they can. Sometimes through either bad maps or bad play, the end result can lead a zerg feeling pigeon-holed into a bad army composition against a maxed protoss ball. At that point, they will lose and not be happy about it. There are a large number of factors that contribute to how their final unit combination is achieved and simply making the blanket statement that zergs are "doin' it wrong" is just silly. If you ever lose a game you're "doin' it wrong." | ||
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ThE_OsToJiY
Canada1167 Posts
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Thrnchkg
United States16 Posts
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 11:27 Vlare wrote: So what you're saying is, you played someone who sucks. Beat them. And are upset because you are playing him ? perhaps if you ladder more you will be matched against opponents who aren't as awful as this guy =) As for him "attacking you". You played a super P favored map in PvZ, and said "Z let me up to 3 bases". When it is actually extremely difficult for Z to deny the 3rd on that map. Let alone attacking into that choke early on with FF's, it's actually quite easy for protoss to defend unless you do some sort of high aggression burrow move bust, and even this is easilly dealt with if protoss scouts properly. ZvP is tricky, and while I do agree with you that many zergs are too passive and it throws games as a result. I do not think your story really merits a blog worthy of a discussion. glhf. I agree that my opponent sucked, but the point is that I see far too many of people like that guy (even at higher levels) My third was, of course, the previously island expo at shattered temple. There's two ways into this base, he never even tried to attack it from the other angle. I'm not entirely alone on the topic, SoTG ep. 40 HuK talks about it, and that's at a pro level. Im saying that zergs need to use their harassment capabilities more. Just researching drop/burrow movement can make your roaches/hydras incredible harassment units (watch mondragon, copy that). And finally, the blog was not supposed to be me retelling a mighty tale of my laddering prowess, it was me venting on the way Zergs have been handling ZvP. | ||
SirJolt
the Dagon Knight4002 Posts
Sorry if this Is a silly question, I just can't get my head around it. | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 14:52 I_Love_Bacon wrote: We're generalizing here, and of course you don't see large numbers of hydras in zvp if it's ball vs ball nearing the end. The entire issue boils down to the fact that zerg do what they can and protoss do what they can. Sometimes through either bad maps or bad play, the end result can lead a zerg feeling pigeon-holed into a bad army composition against a maxed protoss ball. At that point, they will lose and not be happy about it. There are a large number of factors that contribute to how their final unit combination is achieved and simply making the blanket statement that zergs are "doin' it wrong" is just silly. If you ever lose a game you're "doin' it wrong." If you're pigeon-holed (or feeling like it) into pure roaches or roach hydra (anything that can't handle a death ball) then you can at least use this composition to its fullest potential. Sitting on it and expanding, or attacking into a toss deathball is not using it to its fullest potential. MrBitter says this all the time to his students, and when casting NASL. You cannot let toss get three uncontested bases, and you should not face a toss ball head on with roach hydra. Roach hydra/ling drops, nydus, counterattacks, etc etc. If you have 50 lings just chilling, and you know they won't be of any use attacking his army (and you've seen him move out ofc) then counterattack his third, do something. Too many Zergs are loosing due to overly passive play, they are the ones "doin' it wrong" the title may have been misleading. I was amazed, AMAZED when I first saw Mondragon play in the TSL. Holy shit, he's a god. Especially first game vs Cruncher, it seemed like he at all points in time had about 20 roaches burrowed at crunchers expo's. Also second game of IdrA vs cruncher is a great example. Though that game was focused entirely around doing drops early on, while what i'm talking about is drops later on as a multipronged harassment tool. | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 11:26 Advocado wrote: People go Roach hydra cause it's the best way to survive the mid game protoss pushes. Good job simplifying the entire debate though. How did I simplify it, my sarcastic, Danish friend?  Perhaps I failed to mention the exact reason why roach hydra is used in the mid game. Uh oh. | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 17:50 SirJolt wrote: Maybe this isn't the right place for this, but there seem to be some zeros here who know their stuff. As a toss player, I often see people upgrade the bujeepers out of their roaches, but then just march them off to die; why does nobody use roach-burrow micro the way toss people use stalker blink micro? It seems like it would be harder, but not unresolvably so... Sorry if this Is a silly question, I just can't get my head around it. Eh, to my experience, this is how it goes: Zerg is about to engage with his beautiful mass roach army. As one million forcefields get thrown down, he burrows ALL of his roaches at once. Then he realizes theres an observer with the protoss army. Then he leaves the game and hopes to get matches against a terran, so he doesn't have to micro at all : / | ||
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
You're right that roach/hydra/corruptor is a tough fight vs collossi/stalkers, and this is why many people have abandoned it, but it's not really an army you can micro anyway (hydra micro?). It's not that the match-up is unbalanced, it's that the Z player really has to go out and win the game. P just needs to sit back behind herp-derp (amazing!) forcefeilds and wall in's, until deathball is made. This wins far too easy. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
The very best style of playing PvZ is by macroing up and defending until you have the ball that just whipes the floor with zerg. This wouldn't normally be a problem for zerg, if protoss didn't also have the most tough to break front in the game. I do not blame protosses for sitting in their base and then pushing out and whiping out bases. I blame the game for forcing them into that playstyle because tiny protoss forces are simply too weak. If a protoss moves out with a small squad to kill hatcheries a la terran style, they lose that army guarenteed. An aware zerg will ALWAYS catch the army in the open and crush it. The very foundations of protoss are the ones at fault. Collosus and walls provide too much of a defenders advantage to ever decide to break after the midgame. And where zerg NEEDS to be the agressor to have a good game against protoss, protoss doesn't necesairily need to move out to keep the zergs bases down. Because a lategame protoss army will always be more costeffective than a zerg lategame army, and rightfully so. The very reason Im on a long break from starcraft is zerg versus protoss. Not because I lose all the time to silly pushes, which I do, but because the match up simply isnt FUN. If some terran comes up, drops marines everywhere and just completely punches my face twelve foot deep into creep, I could not be more happy. If a zerg comes up and out-micros me in a baneling zergling fight, I'm a smiling guy. I get the feeling that I could play better then. But versus protoss, it just LOOKS like I'm being trampled by a one A push. It never seems like that guy outplayed me even if he did. It feels like you're getting smashed by some guy who just left kindergarten and you're the bad guy for not gging. So next time you're up against a whining zerg. Or you see a forum post with whiny zergs. Just remember, the matchup is the most frustrating thing in the world for us. And most of the shit that leaves our mouths is just venting from it. So please, don't give zergs advice, the only thing they will do is snap back at you in blind rage. It does not help and won't change the situation. The only chance for us to calm down sadly is if some zerg god steps up and shows us all how to play ZvP. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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KurtistheTurtle
United States1966 Posts
Zerg is the most reactive race in the game, lore-wise absorbing enemy traits and adapting to environments, and they're supposed to be a swarm where once you kill the first army theres a second coming over the hill. ZvP is my FAVORITE matchup because of the colossal amount of battle that goes on when I get a toss play near my level. | ||
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Adeny
Norway1233 Posts
That's why you don't see zergs making lings for the sake of harassing expos and stuff, you've gotta race the protoss or else you're doomed to die, so we can only make drones. Who cares if you kill a couple of gateway units or a nexus with your lings, unless you manage to somehow kill the robo with them, his colossi is still going to get churned out like clockwork, meaning you actually did no damage. | ||
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Essentia
1150 Posts
seems fair to me. | ||
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
On May 29 2011 09:48 marttorn wrote: Yup, as I said, real pro zergs aren't doing this, but on ladder and semi-pro to amateur levels it's still far too common, imo. he's saying that a lot of Zerg progamers have moved away from roach, hydra, corruptor comp some still use it, but it is most definitely not the dominant unit composition that you'll most likely see from a Zerg nowadays | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On top of that you're about a month late to the party. Zergs have boosted their preformance recently and are indeed winning ZvPs. If you look at recent GSL and NASL stats ZvP isn't nearly as Protoss favored as it was. In fact, in NASL Zergs have a positive winrate against Protoss. Oh and then you top it off with Then he leaves the game and hopes to get matches against a terran, so he doesn't have to micro at all : / ~_~ | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
On May 29 2011 23:16 TheSubtleArt wrote: Lol I don't know what to say. You make a sweeping generalization that's as ridiculous as it is untrue, all based off your knee-jerk reaction to some ZvP games you probably don't even watch closely. At the same time you pretend to know better than pro / semi pro Zergs who are probably 100x more skilled then you. Wait, you acknowledge you're a bad player, but still continue to believe your umbrella critique is accurate. You're really assuming people who dedicate their life to this game and practice day in day out to try and win money just close their eyes, press 1a, die, complain, and repeat? Yet you know more about what it takes to win a ZvP than them? On top of that you're about a month late to the party. Zergs have boosted their preformance recently and are indeed winning ZvPs. If you look at recent GSL and NASL stats ZvP isn't nearly as Protoss favored as it was. In fact, in NASL Zergs have a positive winrate against Protoss. Oh and then you top it off with ~_~ sounds about right | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 23:16 TheSubtleArt wrote: Lol I don't know what to say. You make a sweeping generalization that's as ridiculous as it is untrue, all based off your knee-jerk reaction to some ZvP games you probably don't even watch closely. At the same time you pretend to know better than pro / semi pro Zergs who are probably 100x more skilled then you. Wait, you acknowledge you're a bad player, but still continue to believe your umbrella critique is accurate. You're really assuming people who dedicate their life to this game and practice day in day out to try and win money just close their eyes, press 1a, die, complain, and repeat? Yet you know more about what it takes to win a ZvP than them? On top of that you're about a month late to the party. Zergs have boosted their preformance recently and are indeed winning ZvPs. If you look at recent GSL and NASL stats ZvP isn't nearly as Protoss favored as it was. In fact, in NASL Zergs have a positive winrate against Protoss. Oh and then you top it off with ~_~ The point of this entry was not to say "I know better than pros who practice their ass off". It's too bad that that's the point that came across. What I meant was that, undeniably, Zergs have been struggling in ZvP for the last few months (both on a pro and semi-pro to just ladder newbie level). I have seen far too many games where zergs attack a protoss death ball head on, and they lose. This undeniably happens (was happening**, I'll get back to that in a second) in pro games as well as just the average ladder warriors game. I don't think it's arrogant of me to say that the reason these zergs were losing, was because they lost their whole army and got killed shortly afterwards. I've said this before, this entry was essentially just me venting against Zergs that I see rage on ladder and on forums. I'm not by any means claiming to be smarter than the likes of NesTea, Sheth, july etc etc. Also, I was far from saying that all zergs were whining bastards that only 1a'ed stupidly into colossus death balls. In fact I would say that no reasonably intelligent zerg ever does this, certainly not on a pro level. The middle part of your reply is somewhat confusing to me. Did you not read my original post? I didn't exactly say that todays current pro zergs are doing anything like this. I might of mentioned this before (sarcasm, I'll get back to that in a second), but my post was more directed towards your common laddering zerg, not meant to make some huge grandiose statement about the current metagame and how pro zergs act. I'm far from stupid enough to be speaking here without any knowledge of how ZvP currently works in the pro scene. The last part of your reply, well, not much to say on that. It was sarcasm. It is indeed hard to have sarcasm come across the right way on the internet, and I sincerely apologize if you did not pick up on it. | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 19:25 infinity2k9 wrote: So you're basically saying, 'I should be able to 1a all my units but nobody else'. No, i'm not actually. I think you should read the entire post and think about it before trying to sum it all up in one line of text. | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 20:10 Adeny wrote: ZvP is terrible because it makes no sense. In broodwar, if you were to do 6-fac timing in TvP, and the protoss held, he would swing back around and kill your shit. In ZvP, if you hold a protoss *any attack*, you can't kill him. So protoss gets free opportunities whenever he wants to because he's immune to counter-attacks, whereas if you lose any one single unit you'll never be able to beat him in the race to his deathball. All the protoss needs is to somehow get a lot of colossus, while the zerg has to get a lot of everything. If the protoss loses everything but the colossi he's still fine, but if the zerg loses anything he doesn't have a lot of everything, you know? That's why you don't see zergs making lings for the sake of harassing expos and stuff, you've gotta race the protoss or else you're doomed to die, so we can only make drones. Who cares if you kill a couple of gateway units or a nexus with your lings, unless you manage to somehow kill the robo with them, his colossi is still going to get churned out like clockwork, meaning you actually did no damage. So doing economic damage is entirely useless in this matchup? Harassment is pointless? Tell me, what is the goal of harassment. In the case we're dealing with here, it is to hurt the economy of the protoss. You'll hear MrBitter (and any reasonable zerg) talk about denying the third base of a protoss. Do that. It's not entirely impossible, on all maps there are two ways into a natural third. Shattered temple, metalopolis, etc. Claiming that denying protoss bases is worthless if he can still make colossi is straight up silly. Eventually your toss opponent will starve, and all of a sudden he can't make much of anything. Lings are excellent for this purpose, because a protoss army divided is fairly useless. Using our brains, we figure out that this means the entire, forcefully powerful protoss army can only be one place at a time and still retain its power. This is easy to abuse. Not gonna take more time to tell you, I kind of have more intelligent posts to respond to : / | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 21:57 udgnim wrote: he's saying that a lot of Zerg progamers have moved away from roach, hydra, corruptor comp some still use it, but it is most definitely not the dominant unit composition that you'll most likely see from a Zerg nowadays Wait, the post you were quoting from me said: "...real pro zergs aren't doing this..." "This" being roach hydra corrupter. Then you respond with saying "...a lot of zerg progamers have moved away from roach hydra corrupter comp..." Didn't you just say exactly what I said in my first post? | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On May 29 2011 21:19 Essentia wrote: so toss is just allowed to macro up and 1A into the zerg and win at high levels where the zerg player has to play a million times better with higher APM and do multipronged attacks in order to just have a shot at winning. seems fair to me. I wouldn't call dropping a few roaches here and there "playing a million times better with higher APM" Obv. the statement "dropping a few roaches here and there" is an understatement, but you're overestimating the effort it takes to do anything but stay passive as zerg. In the mid to late game, terran have to be the aggressor and do drops etc (in all matchups except vs T) in order to be in a good position, yet theres nobody crying about that, claiming it's too APM intensive. I don't see why certain people are so surprised you can't just stay passive as Zerg and let toss macro up. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
Moreover, Protoss can stop named Zerg harass much easier then a Zerg can stop a Terran, and on top of that the risk/reward is much higher for a Terran. Also, your inability to edit your post is kind of annoying. | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
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