On January 21 2011 04:25 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote: i think its redundant to have "player preference" in there, the reason being you already have "maps favor terran" and "terran are OP" in the poll. people tend to prefer terran BECAUSE the maps favor them, and because they're OP.
toss get a time resource boost. zerg get a larvae resource boost. terran get a "vision" resource, a "supply" resource, and literal funding.
blizzard wont recognize it because "the stats are even". well, the stats are even because people use terran as a crutch and more skilled players tend to be more principled.
Apologise for playing that race? Really? After all the nerfs.. not a single buff and thats still the party line?
Ahh well, Time to stop reading these posts .
Decaying-leaf league syndrome in here.
decaying leaf league syndrome? fyi, i'm currently 2400 master.
you know whats really sad? a friend of mine got sc2 recently. he plays terran, and he's been winning a lot online. he was telling me that his strat was to "build a whole lot of the football guys". and when i mentioned mules he asked me what those were. don't get me wrong, he plays a ton of RTS so he has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what terran players can get away with NOT KNOWING
the people he is playing must be absolutely pathetic
On January 21 2011 04:50 branflakes14 wrote: Revert the SCV change, implement a change that only alters SCV priority when repairing a Thor, reduce SCV health by 5. There, SCVs are no longer a mobile PDD and all ins are weaker. Objections? None? Good.
???? Drones regen ( they have 40 in SC2 from 35 )
Probes regen shields ( 20/20 +regens on the run at a quick rate )
Scvs have +5 hp to offset that ???? are you intoxicated...?
I have a question, why are there so many Zergs in the MSL this season? OMG, THEY MUST BE OP! HURRY BLIZZARD NERF, NERF!
Of course, this is silly. It's just the ebb and flow of the games strategies. There were periods of dominance of one race over the others during BW, sometimes for nearly two seasons straight, where people would question a races "balance" but in the end it just has to do with trends within specific Match-ups.
The Protoss had their time during the 08-09 season with the advent of the Forge FE as standard play, Swarm Season quickly followed as Zergs learned to adapt to the Protoss with the 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra, and before all of that, even before Savior, and look who was dominating? TERRANS. It all has to do with trends and trend leaders and when they arise and how they influence the scene. I expect SC2 to balance out fairly well as time goes on.
On January 21 2011 04:25 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote: i think its redundant to have "player preference" in there, the reason being you already have "maps favor terran" and "terran are OP" in the poll. people tend to prefer terran BECAUSE the maps favor them, and because they're OP.
toss get a time resource boost. zerg get a larvae resource boost. terran get a "vision" resource, a "supply" resource, and literal funding.
blizzard wont recognize it because "the stats are even". well, the stats are even because people use terran as a crutch and more skilled players tend to be more principled.
Apologise for playing that race? Really? After all the nerfs.. not a single buff and thats still the party line?
Ahh well, Time to stop reading these posts .
Decaying-leaf league syndrome in here.
decaying leaf league syndrome? fyi, i'm currently 2400 master.
you know whats really sad? a friend of mine got sc2 recently. he plays terran, and he's been winning a lot online. he was telling me that his strat was to "build a whole lot of the football guys". and when i mentioned mules he asked me what those were. don't get me wrong, he plays a ton of RTS so he has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what terran players can get away with NOT KNOWING
And I have a zerg friend that never ever used Ultralisk, Infestors, or Broodlord and got to mid diamond, not to mention he never played other races except in single player.
It is hard to say, there is obviously serious map imbalance but every terran player still in the running is an incredible player who deserves their spot. I think it could just be random chance that things ended up this way. Certainly there is imbalance in the game and particularly the map pool but that is not the reason why we see MVP, Jinro, and MKP in the semis. They are in the semis because they are all incredible players who have worked hard for their spots and deserve them.
On January 20 2011 21:02 tapk69 wrote: damm i saw him win against NADA AND JINRO with just marines! Marine is a tier 1 unit man.. you dont see the rest of the terran play with just marines do you ? why is that? i tell you ...
because they can´t do it , they can´t compare to that , thats like a Ferrari F-40 and a Ferrari Enzo..
Oh, you can't think of another terran who goes all marines? *cough* Marineking *cough*
On January 21 2011 04:36 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
On January 21 2011 04:29 Scrimpton wrote:
On January 21 2011 04:25 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote: i think its redundant to have "player preference" in there, the reason being you already have "maps favor terran" and "terran are OP" in the poll. people tend to prefer terran BECAUSE the maps favor them, and because they're OP.
toss get a time resource boost. zerg get a larvae resource boost. terran get a "vision" resource, a "supply" resource, and literal funding.
blizzard wont recognize it because "the stats are even". well, the stats are even because people use terran as a crutch and more skilled players tend to be more principled.
Apologise for playing that race? Really? After all the nerfs.. not a single buff and thats still the party line?
Ahh well, Time to stop reading these posts .
Decaying-leaf league syndrome in here.
decaying leaf league syndrome? fyi, i'm currently 2400 master.
you know whats really sad? a friend of mine got sc2 recently. he plays terran, and he's been winning a lot online. he was telling me that his strat was to "build a whole lot of the football guys". and when i mentioned mules he asked me what those were. don't get me wrong, he plays a ton of RTS so he has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what terran players can get away with NOT KNOWING
My wife just started taking interest in the game.. and she's winning games as Z making "those fast hopping bugs".. dont get me wrong, she plays a ton of rts so she has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what Zerg player can get away with NO KNOWING
Rofl, nice try, but you are clearly trolling. A single void ray/muta/banshee would completely fark your wife up and could end the game right there. Not to mention all tier one units can easily kill zerglings. No tier 1 units can kill equal cost marines when micro'd correctly.
And again, NOTHING completely farks up a terran player. They can survive anything.
As a masters Zerg I can say it looks like this: [P] > [Z] Protoss units are just so damn cost effective and anything toss does is really capable of killing a Zerg easily. Late game toss is vastly overpowered. His 200 supply army will kill your 200 supply army 3 times easily without losing much.
[T]=[Z] However!, Terran is way easier to play and got way more options. Micro is a need for Zerg and wont be rewarded highly, whereas it's a nice little extra for terran and can easily lose you the game (for instance marine split)
As it is now, Zerg only got very few options and is the hardest race to play (from a nonbiased point of view). If you manage to master the choice between units and workers you end up being ahead. Unfortunately it mostly consists of guessing since your scouting can be easily denied.
On January 21 2011 04:36 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
On January 21 2011 04:29 Scrimpton wrote:
On January 21 2011 04:25 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote: i think its redundant to have "player preference" in there, the reason being you already have "maps favor terran" and "terran are OP" in the poll. people tend to prefer terran BECAUSE the maps favor them, and because they're OP.
toss get a time resource boost. zerg get a larvae resource boost. terran get a "vision" resource, a "supply" resource, and literal funding.
blizzard wont recognize it because "the stats are even". well, the stats are even because people use terran as a crutch and more skilled players tend to be more principled.
Apologise for playing that race? Really? After all the nerfs.. not a single buff and thats still the party line?
Ahh well, Time to stop reading these posts .
Decaying-leaf league syndrome in here.
decaying leaf league syndrome? fyi, i'm currently 2400 master.
you know whats really sad? a friend of mine got sc2 recently. he plays terran, and he's been winning a lot online. he was telling me that his strat was to "build a whole lot of the football guys". and when i mentioned mules he asked me what those were. don't get me wrong, he plays a ton of RTS so he has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what terran players can get away with NOT KNOWING
My wife just started taking interest in the game.. and she's winning games as Z making "those fast hopping bugs".. dont get me wrong, she plays a ton of rts so she has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what Zerg player can get away with NO KNOWING
Rofl, nice try, but you are clearly trolling. A single void ray/muta/banshee would completely fark your wife up and could end the game right there. Not to mention all tier one units can easily kill zerglings. No tier 1 units can kill equal cost marines when micro'd correctly.
And again, NOTHING completely farks up a terran player. They can survive anything.
A single Mothership would also shut down a 6pool, but there's a reason you don't see that.
On January 21 2011 03:52 statez wrote: I hate these threads. So everyone that plays T are instantly favored from an OP race/heavily favored map and Z is super hard because of larvae management and creep tumors. yawn.
(over)representation of Zerg players..
it's so embarrassing to see the beacon of starcraft 2 in the west like this..
all due to one race with a persecution complex since that reaper thing.
Z, Focus on your own play. Thx Bro
u might be my new favorite poster ever. im pretty sure you aint even trolling too, hilarious.
theres no need to be so defensive about your race btw, try and look at things objectively, and not just from your own point of view. i dont think zerg are miles behind terran, i just think terran could use a few tweaks maybe.
that being said though, with all the available data i don't see how blizzard won't at least rebalance marines and maybe buff something else. its getting silly with foxer.
Sorry man, 750 games played as Z, 500 as P. 25 as T.
Terran isn't my race, the problem is it's EMBARRASSING to be represented as a Zerg or Protoss by threads like these.
I agree here.
Maybe another thing thats a contributing factor is Terrans psychological warfare. They WANT to seem Feared. They WANT to look OP. They WANT any factor that makes them better.
This lets them to think their ahead so already they have an advantage. Every waking second your sitting their your thinking....."Well fuck, why should I try when I know they are OP?" So in return you don't try as hard while the MM stim and kills your base and you sit back and instead of microing/macroing you think there's nothing you can do.
Play more, get better QQ less
/End
The problem is it's not about playing it's about watching and appreciating the game. I look in my master league and more than 50% of the players are like me; 200 games or less played. (I'm mainly Z but I also play T and P on ladder). People who understand the game dam well but don't really enjoy playing much.
It's just really hard to appreciate Starcraft2 as an observer when there's obvious balance issues and when too many games are decided by luck.
On January 21 2011 00:42 mesohawny wrote: Does anyone know how MorroW has been doing since he switched fomr T -> Z? I know he recently lost a finals to White-Ra but thats it...
It would be nice if more top players who have switched races would speak up and give their perspectives on balance... It seems like they're all afraid of being called whiners and such. (except for IdrA, he doesnt give a shit about discretion)
It seems OK to whine if you are Zerg on the TL forums for some reason. Morrow's interview had a lot of slightly disguised whining. He had some good points as well, but isn't afraid to complain or criticize.
So much balance whine. I honestly am only recently getting good enough to really notice issues that zerg has a problem with. But personally, I think most people are far too inexperienced with the game to have a good grasp of the balance problems.
Not all of us are. But really, I think Idra summed it up very well:
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
Seriously, Idra makes several good points relating to several areas of gameplay. His point about earlygame and lategame disadvantage actually seems pretty accurate IMO.
Personally, I'm surprised that broodlords DO catch people offguard as often as they do, as it takes forever to get them (both Hive and Greater Spire morphing give you signs). But then I suppose people aren't used to needing to scout zerg that often...
[B]On January 21 2011 03:09 IntoTheBush wrote: You obviously never played Terran, and haven't made it out of Plat yet. So lets move on to your quotes, and how they make no sense.
Wrong. I played T to start out. With zero RTS experience, and having never played BW, or the beta, and having just watched a few streams.....i had a MMM bo open on my second monitor, went 5-0 in placement, and would have been diamond in a few days if had actually kept playing T. But I tanked my rating to bronze, where I farked around with Z, failed miserably, then switched to toss, and am slowly moving back up, but just don't care as much about ranking up any more. I actually watch streams/replays far more than I actually play.
"But a very low risk, high reward harass like an 8 marine drop when the enemy is out of position can completely swing the game back to even. And no other race has the same ability." Looks like somebody has never heard of a warp prism, or a proxy pylon. Also you know those annoying things called Mutalisks? get 12 of those and u can cause havoc for a Terran player who doesnt have a Thor or more than 3 Turrets in his main. So there's one point where you're wrong. Lets move onto the 2nd.
LOL? A warp prism which can dump a max of 4 units out, not including super fragile warp-ins, and can be destroyed in 2 seconds by 4 stimmed marines, which can also kite anything not stalkers into infinity?? Proxy pylon? What? How do you get a proxy pylon into a Ts base unless they are just rofl bad. Oh, yeah, and you know those annoying things called mutalisks? Yeah, 12 stimmed marines can wreck some mutas. They'll lose to twelve mutas, but cost for cost its ridiculous how effective marines are. P.S., marines are first units you can get. And so, that point alone proves me right. Tier 1 marines hard counter tier 2.5 mutas. This discussion is over.
"A cloak banshee rush is a standard Terran bo that can 100% destroy many P/Z bos, and yet not only does it only barely put T behind, but it can end the game RIGHT THERE." Ok once again my friend you are wrong. Any HIGH level Diamond player or Master League player can easily prepare for Banshee. Honestly I don't remember when I HAVEN'T played a P or Z who wasnt nearly prepared or already prepared for possible Banshee. Also once that fails that leaves u with what? MAYBE 2 barracks, and ur natural just completing.. while P or Z already has their 3 gates, or Zerg double injecting larva and making a rofflestomp army. Terran is behind MORE than just a little bit if Banshee fails. Next to good ol' quote number 3.
The thing is, those diamond/master players MUST prepare for banshees, because not doing so = instaloss if the t does go for banshees, and they have no effective means of scouting those banshees until they cruise into your base. And lets say you epic fail with those banshees. Well that's cool, you probably have at least 10-15 marines out, and your banshees are still alive, so you just swap your factory over to your tech lab, drop a few bunkers for your marines, and 1 minute later you have 2 siege tanks chilling in front of your base while you prepare your CC in base, while your medivac you built off your "rushed" starport is now on the way to your enemies main with 8 marines where his stims, kills off 10 workers and then retreats with no losses, putting you back equal. Just another day at the office for T, where nothing you do is all-in. Once again.....you fail.
"You can literally lose your entire army as a T, and as long as you have a couple bunkers up, 400 minerals(2 MULEs) worth of marines, 2 siege tanks, and 4 repairing scvs, you can hold off anything short of basically an all-in push by your opponent. And this turtling abilty won't win you games outright, but it just gives your opponent that many more chances to make a mistake that puts the t right back into the game." I mean I honestly don't even have to say anything for this one... BUT I will. First off 95% of Terran players destroy their bunkers and use the marines before they move out for an attack. Second off after you kill your opponents entire army why are u going straight in for an attack? That is if you don't have the ROFLSTOMP army. If you kill their entire army your next move is to expand, get map control, and not sucide what units you have left.
You don't know what to say because........you have no argument. bunkers are 100 minerals worth of completely refundable solid gold as a defensive structure. If your attack fails, dropping two bunkers takes 30 seconds, and with 4 marines in each + repair can hold off far more than 600 minerals worth of attacking units. And yes, I know the answer to killing your opponent off when your opponent is T is expanding, but only because they can turtle until they run out of resources and be safe. Vs Z, if you rape their entire standing army before the "300 supply zerg" point, then you can push right in and rape their base 90% of the time, because they have no wall-off and no effective defensive structures that can hold off marines/tanks/anything. If toss loses their death ball, then they are dead, and most just gg on the spot after losing their entire standing army. T can just turtle for a while, pull off a few lucky drop harass, and be right back in the game 3 minutes later if their opponent screws up at all.
Maybe you should start watching the Day[9] daily's and you won't sound completely wrong when you post.
Maybe you should start watching actual games where T's pull all kind of ridiculous bs to win games they have no business winning, instead of day9 dailys telling people how to make pylons and probes while you 2 rax "all-in" into 1 base marine/tank/thor/scv repair every game and think you're pro. I watch day9 all the time, btw.
SO owned... so so so so owned.. I wanted to respond to this guys post but i was just too lazy...
On January 21 2011 04:36 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
On January 21 2011 04:29 Scrimpton wrote:
On January 21 2011 04:25 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote: i think its redundant to have "player preference" in there, the reason being you already have "maps favor terran" and "terran are OP" in the poll. people tend to prefer terran BECAUSE the maps favor them, and because they're OP.
toss get a time resource boost. zerg get a larvae resource boost. terran get a "vision" resource, a "supply" resource, and literal funding.
blizzard wont recognize it because "the stats are even". well, the stats are even because people use terran as a crutch and more skilled players tend to be more principled.
Apologise for playing that race? Really? After all the nerfs.. not a single buff and thats still the party line?
Ahh well, Time to stop reading these posts .
Decaying-leaf league syndrome in here.
decaying leaf league syndrome? fyi, i'm currently 2400 master.
you know whats really sad? a friend of mine got sc2 recently. he plays terran, and he's been winning a lot online. he was telling me that his strat was to "build a whole lot of the football guys". and when i mentioned mules he asked me what those were. don't get me wrong, he plays a ton of RTS so he has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what terran players can get away with NOT KNOWING
My wife just started taking interest in the game.. and she's winning games as Z making "those fast hopping bugs".. dont get me wrong, she plays a ton of rts so she has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what Zerg player can get away with NO KNOWING
Rofl, nice try, but you are clearly trolling. A single void ray/muta/banshee would completely fark your wife up and could end the game right there. Not to mention all tier one units can easily kill zerglings. No tier 1 units can kill equal cost marines when micro'd correctly.
And again, NOTHING completely farks up a terran player. They can survive anything.
A single Mothership would also shut down a 6pool, but there's a reason you don't see that.
Well, a single mothership could shut down marines too, but...........oh wait, no, lol, a mothership loses to tier 1 marines badly.
Back on subject though, that is a retarded thing to say. 6 pool only works if your opponent doesn't scout it. But its not like a proxy 10 rax wouldn't work in the exact same situation.
Since the beginning of beta I was arguing points everywhere aboot blizzards choices for the map pool as I knew they would balance the game around these strangely small map designs. like broodwar the map pool started off way differently than they ended up, which imo were vastly different and more entertaining (and balanced) in the end.
i read a post in this thread where someone had concerns for the latest gsl releases "aiur garden" and "the other one?" (sorry)
his view was that these new maps are highly in favor of zerg and his view is more than valid:
Zerg (and both terran and protoss) has evolved to grow based off of existing maps in blizzards map pool which many people have a general distaste for. when these maps are inevitably replaced with a larger format I believe zerg will benefit the most while I forsee terran taking the brunt of the change.
terran is designed to play a close quarters match and push while defending. Marines are a prime example of the outer bounds of terrans immobility, without marines most of the terran army is useless because each unit has a somewhat specific focus. A marine is the terrans cherry so to speak. when maps are larger people will see what terran players mean by immobility as the further they stretch themselves apart, the more fragile they become.
Zerg on the other hand only has this restraint for the early game and then through the metagame expand and in more ways than one they grow. A big concern of mine is the power of larvae inject on a larger map format. once a few bases are established (4 or 5) the zerg can begin to overwhelm his opponent with constant harass and once he reaches his 200 supply cap he can decimate any opposition.
on a larger map zerg will have more opportunity to spread creep/expand and retain map control do to their speed and abilities.
but this is my view and could be biased like a lot of peoples are.
I say dont be so eager for change due to some unsupported statistics or the fact that youre having troubles versus a race because this game is still an infant and like an infant it will grow accordingly, too much demand will give it brain damage early on if you get my drift
imho forget aboot this thread and wait for the next GSL before contemplating imbalance as it is somewhat selfish.
let the races grow forget balance work around it check off maps you dont like*
ps: I wanted to write more but I took a pretty ling break to write this and my phones dying.
On January 21 2011 05:17 RoosterSamurai wrote: I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that Terran is an OP race? Why can't it just mean that the Terran players are better?
Because that would mean they are not the best player!!!111oneoneone
The biggest problem for me against Terran (high diamond), is that it seems like its just really REALLY hard to dictate the game v. Terran. I think Marines and Mules are just a brutal combination that lets Terran really dictate the early game.
EPT
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