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Why so much Terran success in GSL? - Page 18

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Adonisto
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada191 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-20 20:35:35
January 20 2011 19:25 GMT
#341
I don't think Terran is overpowered, but their All In are amazingly strong and we see a lot of that in the GSL, right now. There's so much different All In you can do too with Terran... People will eventually figured out how to stop all of them effectively.
SkeweredFromEarToEye
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada19 Posts
January 20 2011 19:25 GMT
#342
i think its redundant to have "player preference" in there, the reason being you already have "maps favor terran" and "terran are OP" in the poll. people tend to prefer terran BECAUSE the maps favor them, and because they're OP.

toss get a time resource boost.
zerg get a larvae resource boost.
terran get a "vision" resource, a "supply" resource, and literal funding.

blizzard wont recognize it because "the stats are even". well, the stats are even because people use terran as a crutch and more skilled players tend to be more principled.
On a spit, your head will burn...Charring flesh; brain tissue congeals...Grab the skull; open wide; scoop it out...I consume your mind. Eating the brain, to gain the knowledge of death
NikonTC
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom418 Posts
January 20 2011 19:26 GMT
#343
On January 21 2011 04:22 imbs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 04:20 NikonTC wrote:
On January 21 2011 04:16 imbs wrote:
On January 21 2011 03:58 Scrimpton wrote:
On January 21 2011 03:52 statez wrote:
I hate these threads. So everyone that plays T are instantly favored from an OP race/heavily favored map and Z is super hard because of larvae management and creep tumors. yawn.


(over)representation of Zerg players..

it's so embarrassing to see the beacon of starcraft 2 in the west like this..

all due to one race with a persecution complex since that reaper thing.

Z, Focus on your own play. Thx Bro


theres no need to be so defensive about your race btw, try and look at things objectively, and not just from your own point of view.


I hate myself but I just have to reply to this. WHAT is with people going "oh well you play terran so of course your opinion is biased".

why don't I just say "well you play zerg so YOUR opinion is biased against terran" ?


m8 no one can achieve objectivity. you can at least try though which idk about you but it does not seem that alot of people do that. people literally think 70%+ of the best players in the world play terran?


My point was that you're not being objective, yet you were telling someone else that they should be just because they disagreed with you. Now you're saying noone can be objective?


I've been inspired to come up with a new theory. Terrans are just better players. TvT is the most intense matchup, with very high micro and macro requirements, no a-moving is possible you have to do everything patiently and precisely. This sort of training sets all terrans apart from protoss or zerg who don't get this kind of practice regularly.

No I'm not serious, but it makes about as much sense as most of the arguments here.
"IdrA crushes the marine push, absolutely demolishes this 2 rax play. Would not be suprised to see a GG from IdrA at any moment" Day[9]
imbs
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom320 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-20 19:32:38
January 20 2011 19:27 GMT
#344
On January 21 2011 04:22 Diks wrote:
Poll option 4 :
Marine King Prime, Jinro and MVP are just solid gosus. no races imba involved here
It has to do with the persons playing as such a great level that they arrived in semi.

even if thats true, then how come players like tsl rain got to last gsl's final? how come the code a semis is 4 terran. how come ever since sc2 launched terran have dominated everything except during a few weeks just before nestea won gsl?

my motive for thinking terran is op is not from my own play, im not nearly good enough yet to have an opinion on that. i sit and watch gsl and just cannot help but think that as foxer destroys everything even in the lategame where he only builds one type of (tier 1) unit, and the only time other races win tournaments is normally when they are significantly better than the terran they are facing. nestea is gonna have to totally outplay mvp to win. if they are evenly matched at all he wont win.
Gonzodamus
Profile Joined September 2010
United States273 Posts
January 20 2011 19:28 GMT
#345
On January 21 2011 02:43 Toxigen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 02:39 Gonzodamus wrote:
I feel like you're missing an option on the poll. What about the possibility that the Terran players that won are playing better than their opponents?

Because this outcome is so improbable (all the best players independently just happen to pick Terran and all the scrubs happen to pick the others) that it's not worth the time or energy to reasonably entertain.

Unless you're trolling.


The alternative is that Marine King, MVP and Jinro are worse than the people they beat. I don't think that's the case. They played better and beat them - simple as that.
Scrimpton
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom465 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-20 19:29:30
January 20 2011 19:29 GMT
#346
On January 21 2011 04:25 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
i think its redundant to have "player preference" in there, the reason being you already have "maps favor terran" and "terran are OP" in the poll. people tend to prefer terran BECAUSE the maps favor them, and because they're OP.

toss get a time resource boost.
zerg get a larvae resource boost.
terran get a "vision" resource, a "supply" resource, and literal funding.

blizzard wont recognize it because "the stats are even". well, the stats are even because people use terran as a crutch and more skilled players tend to be more principled.



Apologise for playing that race? Really? After all the nerfs.. not a single buff and thats still the party line?

Ahh well, Time to stop reading these posts .

Decaying-leaf league syndrome in here.
Protoss is the only race with "pro" in it
Duban
Profile Joined July 2009
United States548 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-20 19:30:56
January 20 2011 19:30 GMT
#347
% of players that voted for Player preference + random chance = 26%
% of players on teamliquid that play Terran = 25%
Coincidence?

Source:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166233
An ignorant person makes a mistake. A stupid person makes it again.
Knutzi
Profile Joined July 2009
Norway664 Posts
January 20 2011 19:31 GMT
#348
terran seems to be just much safer than the other races, you almost never see a pro terran player lose vs an average zerg/protoss but you quite often see a lesser terran beat a pro protoss or zerg.

they have very strong allins and very strong defense and they are also the race that wins on build order and never lose because of it.

an example could be protoss went for early stargate play and terran went cloak banshee.. freewin for terran

also the maps seem to favor terran heavily, will be interesting too see if the new maps will help for next season
DerNebel
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Denmark648 Posts
January 20 2011 19:32 GMT
#349
I think the reason is simple: Terran was very good in the first period of release -> many korean pros and semi-pros pick up terran for the easy edge -> About the same percentage of people get good at each race -> more Terrans at the top of the progaming.

This will equalize but not before a couple of months have passed.
Mercury-
Profile Joined December 2010
Great Britain804 Posts
January 20 2011 19:35 GMT
#350
On January 21 2011 04:25 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
i think its redundant to have "player preference" in there, the reason being you already have "maps favor terran" and "terran are OP" in the poll. people tend to prefer terran BECAUSE the maps favor them, and because they're OP.

toss get a time resource boost.
zerg get a larvae resource boost.
terran get a "vision" resource, a "supply" resource, and literal funding.

blizzard wont recognize it because "the stats are even". well, the stats are even because people use terran as a crutch and more skilled players tend to be more principled.

Like who? Idra who played Terran in SC1, then went Toss in SC2 when they were undoubtedly the strongest and after they got some nerfs switched to Zerg with 1 food roaches?
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
January 20 2011 19:36 GMT
#351
On January 20 2011 19:15 iEchoic wrote:
If you took out the results from maps like Jungle Basin and steppes, Z would be killing. The maps are the primary problem, so just wait and see until next season when Gardens of Aiur and other hilariously Z-favored maps come into play. These things are like shakuras cross position except with a natural in the back, longer distances, and a narrow ramp.


You know this post shows you haven't really been able to play terran like others (ones who can macro). I think before you make posts like this you should watch good terrans macro and realize that it is possible to play macro games vs zerg and win. Just because you can't do it for whatever reason doesn't mean terran can't beat zerg.

Have you watched any of the matches on those new maps btw? From gisado or w/e? Terran has won on those maps more then zerg has when I have watched. Think you need to pay more attention before posting something like this ^^
When I think of something else, something will go here
SkeweredFromEarToEye
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada19 Posts
January 20 2011 19:36 GMT
#352
On January 21 2011 04:29 Scrimpton wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 04:25 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
i think its redundant to have "player preference" in there, the reason being you already have "maps favor terran" and "terran are OP" in the poll. people tend to prefer terran BECAUSE the maps favor them, and because they're OP.

toss get a time resource boost.
zerg get a larvae resource boost.
terran get a "vision" resource, a "supply" resource, and literal funding.

blizzard wont recognize it because "the stats are even". well, the stats are even because people use terran as a crutch and more skilled players tend to be more principled.



Apologise for playing that race? Really? After all the nerfs.. not a single buff and thats still the party line?

Ahh well, Time to stop reading these posts .

Decaying-leaf league syndrome in here.


decaying leaf league syndrome? fyi, i'm currently 2400 master.

you know whats really sad? a friend of mine got sc2 recently. he plays terran, and he's been winning a lot online. he was telling me that his strat was to "build a whole lot of the football guys". and when i mentioned mules he asked me what those were. don't get me wrong, he plays a ton of RTS so he has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what terran players can get away with NOT KNOWING
On a spit, your head will burn...Charring flesh; brain tissue congeals...Grab the skull; open wide; scoop it out...I consume your mind. Eating the brain, to gain the knowledge of death
Zorgaz
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden2951 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-20 19:41:42
January 20 2011 19:39 GMT
#353
Terran is OP has probably been the biggest thing that people have been complaining about since the launch of SC2. And yes before the ST nerf ST were to strong a unit, but what about now?

I'm a terran player so I'm only going to bring up the matchups that involve T since i am a newbie when it comes to ZvP.

I honestly think that terran as a race is balanced. I especially feel that the TvZ matchup is very fair for both sides, although it is commonly known that way to many match favor Terran alot. But on maps such as Xel Naga, Shakuras (Cross Positions) and Metapolis (Cross Positions) the matchups is really balanced. Although Metapolis (Close Positions) makes it really tough for zerg, so the map isn't perfect.

So as stated, TvZ is good. The problem doesn't lie with the matchup but instead it is a map issue.

And from my point of view i can easily say that i think that TvZ is the most entertaining and dynamic matchup to watch and play.

TvP is a whole other story. It really needs some fixing, but there are hard solved problems.

Firstly its the thing that terran can pull off sick 1 base timing pushes (That almost always includes Scv's) that are able to win them ridiculously easy against protoss players. This makes alot of protoss players mad, and leads them to believe that Terran is too strong. And its not only newbs doing this. I have seen the great terran player Kas pull Scv's and win with a strong push alot of times, both on 1/2 base.

But lets look at it from another point of view. Why is it that it is the Terran race that has become known for these pushes? Why do Zerg and Protoss almost never do it, and why do probes and drones never get used for pushes while scv's so often are.

There are of course alot of answers to this, major ones like (mules) and minor ones like, (5 + health than other workers and able to repair themselves and mech units.) but i won't address them right now.

I think that the biggest reason for terran doing these pushes against protoss is because of the complications in the matchup. It is because alot of terran players really struggle in Macro games with protoss. I can say for a fact that i have almost never won versus a protoss player of similiar skills in games that have gone to the late game. At the same time i do not feel that i struggle in the long time macro games against zerg players on my skill level, so there most be other reasons then the fact that I'm a worse macro player then all the protoss i face.

And sure, every1 has a better and worse matchup that they face. Some people are better against some races and worse against others, so i can't be 100% accurate.

I'm not implying that Protoss are overpowered, but i do think that protoss have it just slightly easier to win versus terran all the way from Bronze league to the higher Diamond leagues.

And i am not saying that Terran can't win macro games against protoss. Because they certainly can proven by the awesome LiquidJinro and many others. I've seen alot of Koreans in the GSL opt for a FE against Protoss which is great. And on the pro level I'm sure that if anything Terran is the stronger race.

But not on all levels, why?

It has alot to do with the fact that protoss have tougher and more expensive units that terran.

I'm just gonna take the easiest example to make the text shorter (Yes it is already pretty long)

: If you look on the papers the Zealot is a far stronger unit than the marine. And one zealot can easily kill two marines without any micro. But when micro is implied to the units it all changes. Suddenly 2 marines can kill off a Zealot without losing any hp if they are microed correctly. In the lower leagues they aren't most of the time resulting in the Zealots having the edge.

But then when it comes to better players it changes and marines suddenly gain the edge of the Zealots. As seen in the gsl. I am sure that Terran may very well be the strongest race if the player playing is capable of astounding micro. But, most of us aren't which makes the matchup fair, and even gives the Protoss the edge in some cases.

Then again some protoss units such as the Sentry requires a good amount of micro, and i must say that just as marines may be OP in the hand of a great player, so is Forcefields.

Protoss also have stronger T3 Units. The collosi + HT with storms are capable of slaughtering so much, while units like Thors, as strong as they can be, aren't.

And even though the Carrier is underused i still think it's way better than BC's.

So when T players have found out that winning over a Protoss in a macro game is harder, many winning-hungry players have strived to find new tactics to beat the Toss. Resulting in the All-ins.

I can honestly say that I don't know exactly what balances sound be implemented, but i think TvP needs some looking into, because we all can't be the elite players. But i still think decent players should be able to play macro games in all matchups fairly.
Furthermore, I think the Collosi should be removed! (Zorgaz -Terran/AbrA-Random/Zorg-Dota2) Guineapigs <3
NikonTC
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom418 Posts
January 20 2011 19:43 GMT
#354
On January 21 2011 04:36 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 04:29 Scrimpton wrote:
On January 21 2011 04:25 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
i think its redundant to have "player preference" in there, the reason being you already have "maps favor terran" and "terran are OP" in the poll. people tend to prefer terran BECAUSE the maps favor them, and because they're OP.

toss get a time resource boost.
zerg get a larvae resource boost.
terran get a "vision" resource, a "supply" resource, and literal funding.

blizzard wont recognize it because "the stats are even". well, the stats are even because people use terran as a crutch and more skilled players tend to be more principled.



Apologise for playing that race? Really? After all the nerfs.. not a single buff and thats still the party line?

Ahh well, Time to stop reading these posts .

Decaying-leaf league syndrome in here.


decaying leaf league syndrome? fyi, i'm currently 2400 master.

you know whats really sad? a friend of mine got sc2 recently. he plays terran, and he's been winning a lot online. he was telling me that his strat was to "build a whole lot of the football guys". and when i mentioned mules he asked me what those were. don't get me wrong, he plays a ton of RTS so he has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what terran players can get away with NOT KNOWING


Oh my god this post made my brain hurt.

I'm out of this thread. I'm going back to the Bronze Practice EU chat channel. Those guys actually want to get better and work hard to improve their own game. I much prefer their company to diamond+ people supposedly around my own skill level that hit a problem and start crying about imbalance rather than just learning how to fix it.

"IdrA crushes the marine push, absolutely demolishes this 2 rax play. Would not be suprised to see a GG from IdrA at any moment" Day[9]
Scrimpton
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom465 Posts
January 20 2011 19:45 GMT
#355
On January 21 2011 04:36 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 04:29 Scrimpton wrote:
On January 21 2011 04:25 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
i think its redundant to have "player preference" in there, the reason being you already have "maps favor terran" and "terran are OP" in the poll. people tend to prefer terran BECAUSE the maps favor them, and because they're OP.

toss get a time resource boost.
zerg get a larvae resource boost.
terran get a "vision" resource, a "supply" resource, and literal funding.

blizzard wont recognize it because "the stats are even". well, the stats are even because people use terran as a crutch and more skilled players tend to be more principled.



Apologise for playing that race? Really? After all the nerfs.. not a single buff and thats still the party line?

Ahh well, Time to stop reading these posts .

Decaying-leaf league syndrome in here.


decaying leaf league syndrome? fyi, i'm currently 2400 master.

you know whats really sad? a friend of mine got sc2 recently. he plays terran, and he's been winning a lot online. he was telling me that his strat was to "build a whole lot of the football guys". and when i mentioned mules he asked me what those were. don't get me wrong, he plays a ton of RTS so he has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what terran players can get away with NOT KNOWING



My wife just started taking interest in the game.. and she's winning games as Z making "those fast hopping bugs".. dont get me wrong, she plays a ton of rts so she has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what Zerg player can get away with NO KNOWING
Protoss is the only race with "pro" in it
Scrimpton
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom465 Posts
January 20 2011 19:48 GMT
#356
On January 21 2011 04:43 NikonTC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 04:36 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
On January 21 2011 04:29 Scrimpton wrote:
On January 21 2011 04:25 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
i think its redundant to have "player preference" in there, the reason being you already have "maps favor terran" and "terran are OP" in the poll. people tend to prefer terran BECAUSE the maps favor them, and because they're OP.

toss get a time resource boost.
zerg get a larvae resource boost.
terran get a "vision" resource, a "supply" resource, and literal funding.

blizzard wont recognize it because "the stats are even". well, the stats are even because people use terran as a crutch and more skilled players tend to be more principled.



Apologise for playing that race? Really? After all the nerfs.. not a single buff and thats still the party line?

Ahh well, Time to stop reading these posts .

Decaying-leaf league syndrome in here.


decaying leaf league syndrome? fyi, i'm currently 2400 master.

you know whats really sad? a friend of mine got sc2 recently. he plays terran, and he's been winning a lot online. he was telling me that his strat was to "build a whole lot of the football guys". and when i mentioned mules he asked me what those were. don't get me wrong, he plays a ton of RTS so he has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what terran players can get away with NOT KNOWING


Oh my god this post made my brain hurt.

I'm out of this thread. I'm going back to the Bronze Practice EU chat channel. Those guys actually want to get better and work hard to improve their own game. I much prefer their company to diamond+ people supposedly around my own skill level that hit a problem and start crying about imbalance rather than just learning how to fix it.




I absolutely fucking love you NikonTC.

you perfectly encapsulated what is wrong with threads like these.

" I much prefer their company to diamond+ people supposedly around my own skill level that hit a problem and start crying about imbalance rather than just learning how to fix it."

This sort of thing should scroll past on a nice banner at the top of the website every now and then, Or pop up every time somebody posts in a thread, like a little tick box you have to read that calms people down and forces them to acknowledge that their own shortcomings do a lot more harm than mules
Protoss is the only race with "pro" in it
Toxigen
Profile Joined July 2010
United States390 Posts
January 20 2011 19:49 GMT
#357
On January 21 2011 04:28 Gonzodamus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 02:43 Toxigen wrote:
On January 21 2011 02:39 Gonzodamus wrote:
I feel like you're missing an option on the poll. What about the possibility that the Terran players that won are playing better than their opponents?

Because this outcome is so improbable (all the best players independently just happen to pick Terran and all the scrubs happen to pick the others) that it's not worth the time or energy to reasonably entertain.

Unless you're trolling.


The alternative is that Marine King, MVP and Jinro are worse than the people they beat. I don't think that's the case. They played better and beat them - simple as that.

Nope, this isn't what you're saying. These 3 players being good doesn't explain success and overrepresentation in all rounds of the GSL. I'm not saying that MKP, MvP or Jinro are bad players. They're amazing players. But having 3-4 amazing Terran players doesn't account for the near constant 50% representation in multiple rounds.

For your option, we'd have to be assuming that even the good Terran players (not greats like MKP, MvP or Jinro) are all, on average, superior to their respective peers playing the other races (like in Code A).

That's where your hypothesis gets ridiculous.
branflakes14
Profile Joined July 2010
2082 Posts
January 20 2011 19:50 GMT
#358
Revert the SCV change, implement a change that only alters SCV priority when repairing a Thor, reduce SCV health by 5. There, SCVs are no longer a mobile PDD and all ins are weaker. Objections? None? Good.
SkeweredFromEarToEye
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada19 Posts
January 20 2011 19:52 GMT
#359
On January 21 2011 04:43 NikonTC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 04:36 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
On January 21 2011 04:29 Scrimpton wrote:
On January 21 2011 04:25 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote:
i think its redundant to have "player preference" in there, the reason being you already have "maps favor terran" and "terran are OP" in the poll. people tend to prefer terran BECAUSE the maps favor them, and because they're OP.

toss get a time resource boost.
zerg get a larvae resource boost.
terran get a "vision" resource, a "supply" resource, and literal funding.

blizzard wont recognize it because "the stats are even". well, the stats are even because people use terran as a crutch and more skilled players tend to be more principled.



Apologise for playing that race? Really? After all the nerfs.. not a single buff and thats still the party line?

Ahh well, Time to stop reading these posts .

Decaying-leaf league syndrome in here.


decaying leaf league syndrome? fyi, i'm currently 2400 master.

you know whats really sad? a friend of mine got sc2 recently. he plays terran, and he's been winning a lot online. he was telling me that his strat was to "build a whole lot of the football guys". and when i mentioned mules he asked me what those were. don't get me wrong, he plays a ton of RTS so he has the basics down. but it's just...it's sad what terran players can get away with NOT KNOWING


Oh my god this post made my brain hurt.

I'm out of this thread. I'm going back to the Bronze Practice EU chat channel. Those guys actually want to get better and work hard to improve their own game. I much prefer their company to diamond+ people supposedly around my own skill level that hit a problem and start crying about imbalance rather than just learning how to fix it.



i didnt hit a problem. im not crying about imbalance. im merely making speculations. terran are OP, but i dont have a problem with them. but they are OP.
On a spit, your head will burn...Charring flesh; brain tissue congeals...Grab the skull; open wide; scoop it out...I consume your mind. Eating the brain, to gain the knowledge of death
FreezingAssassin
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States455 Posts
January 20 2011 19:54 GMT
#360
On January 21 2011 04:18 Scrimpton wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 04:16 imbs wrote:
On January 21 2011 03:58 Scrimpton wrote:
On January 21 2011 03:52 statez wrote:
I hate these threads. So everyone that plays T are instantly favored from an OP race/heavily favored map and Z is super hard because of larvae management and creep tumors. yawn.


(over)representation of Zerg players..

it's so embarrassing to see the beacon of starcraft 2 in the west like this..

all due to one race with a persecution complex since that reaper thing.

Z, Focus on your own play. Thx Bro


u might be my new favorite poster ever. im pretty sure you aint even trolling too, hilarious.

theres no need to be so defensive about your race btw, try and look at things objectively, and not just from your own point of view. i dont think zerg are miles behind terran, i just think terran could use a few tweaks maybe.

that being said though, with all the available data i don't see how blizzard won't at least rebalance marines and maybe buff something else. its getting silly with foxer.


Sorry man, 750 games played as Z, 500 as P. 25 as T.


Terran isn't my race, the problem is it's EMBARRASSING to be represented as a Zerg or Protoss by threads like these.


I agree here.

Maybe another thing thats a contributing factor is Terrans psychological warfare. They WANT to seem Feared. They WANT to look OP. They WANT any factor that makes them better.

This lets them to think their ahead so already they have an advantage. Every waking second your sitting their your thinking....."Well fuck, why should I try when I know they are OP?" So in return you don't try as hard while the MM stim and kills your base and you sit back and instead of microing/macroing you think there's nothing you can do.

Play more, get better QQ less

/End
"I love when stupid stuff happens, it makes me look smart" - IdrA
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