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On January 21 2011 05:10 DoubleReed wrote:So much balance whine. I honestly am only recently getting good enough to really notice issues that zerg has a problem with. But personally, I think most people are far too inexperienced with the game to have a good grasp of the balance problems. Not all of us are. But really, I think Idra summed it up very well: Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 17:01 Beef Noodles wrote:On December 29 2010 16:21 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote:all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200  indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg. Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win? I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol) zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters. and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army. if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled. zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that. Seriously, Idra makes several good points relating to several areas of gameplay. His point about earlygame and lategame disadvantage actually seems pretty accurate IMO. Personally, I'm surprised that broodlords DO catch people offguard as often as they do, as it takes forever to get them (both Hive and Greater Spire morphing give you signs). But then I suppose people aren't used to needing to scout zerg that often...
Maybe one day Zergs will realise that you can Fungal Growth an army and pelt them with Broodlings from out of their range. You'd think the only unit with abilities in the entire Zerg arsenal was the Queen. It's like the ability to lock an army in position is considered worthless.
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On January 21 2011 00:48 Jermstuddog wrote:
I am a Zerg player, but my bias isn't even pro-Zerg, it's anti-Terran. In my time playing video-games I always tend to hate the OP class/character rather than crying about mine being UP, though I have this knack for always picking the weakest class/character out there... What can I say, we all have our talents.
Terran has some obviously favorable balance issues that go beyond simple flavor, most of these are related to their 2 base units, the Marine and the Marauder, mostly the Marine though.
Marauders are good, like unbelievably good. They're cheap, versatile, and ridiculously strong. Not to mention they have the completely unique ability to snare units with every attack at the minor cost of 50/50, this doesn't require energy or activating the ability, it just happens, every shot. The Marauder is hands, down the best early-game unit out there... that is... next to the Marine.
The Marine was ok in Brood War, I might even consider them slightly weaker than Zealots and Zerglings, but holy crap did that turn around in SC2. While Zerglings lost attack speed and Zealots lost health, Marines gained health, gained ranged, gained hp, gained attack speed, and get another hp upgrade on top of all that, oh yeah, stim isn't quite what it used to be, but their new attack speed + weaker stim is still > old stimmed marines. There isn't a single non-splash-damage unit in the game that can take an equal amount of marines straight-up. They are so good, they even counter a lot of the units you would THINK should trump them (Roaches, Banelings, Siege Tanks, Hellions all do surprisingly average against Marines).
All I can say is "What the hell was Blizzard thinking?" MarineKing seems to be the only pro who has caught on to this, making 80-90% of his army composition marines in all MUs, but if things don't change, I can see this idea spreading. This unit has gotten so ridiculously good, its laughable. No wonder Terran has the best all-ins, cheeses, and rushes. They have the god-slayer marine.
Still, I try to look at the whole picture. Marines aren't THAT bad, I think something like adding 0.1 to their attack speed would make them less god-like, but I'm not sure if that would break Terran as a whole. There are too many holes in the Terran army that are filled by the Marine as is, compensation might be required in other areas but its too hard to tell with the dominance of the marine right now. If I were Blizzard, it would be nerf the Marine and watch the results, fixes can be applied to other units later. The Marine is the reason Terran wins more than everybody else, and until Blizzard addresses that, things won't change.
I agree that Marauders need to be looked into. As for the marine - you said they counter banelings. MarineKing is one of the very few terran who can actually make that happen, but even he has stumbled(against NesTea, at the end of GSL2).
Especially when speed banelings come into play. Yes, you CAN conceivably stim, and stutter-step backward whilst individually targeting each baneling in the rolling death ball. Theory states, yes, ranged > melee, especially when the melee never reaches you. But as shown by that key final game in GSL2, even the mighty MarineKing sometimes falters.
In many cases, the best you can really do, is spread out your marines the best you can, in an attempt to contain your losses. In that situation, it is only a "counter" if, upon adding up all the losses, it ended up poorly for zerg due to cost-efficiency.
If you can always maintain 100% control of your marines, you will counter zerg even when a combination of lings + banelings come rolling your way. The true reason that "banelings counter marines" is due to the insane level of APM required to make that statement untrue. That might have sounded poorly worded but I think it's correct.
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On January 21 2011 05:19 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 05:10 DoubleReed wrote:So much balance whine. I honestly am only recently getting good enough to really notice issues that zerg has a problem with. But personally, I think most people are far too inexperienced with the game to have a good grasp of the balance problems. Not all of us are. But really, I think Idra summed it up very well: On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 17:01 Beef Noodles wrote:On December 29 2010 16:21 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote:all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200 indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg. Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win? I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol) zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters. and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army. if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled. zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that. Seriously, Idra makes several good points relating to several areas of gameplay. His point about earlygame and lategame disadvantage actually seems pretty accurate IMO. Personally, I'm surprised that broodlords DO catch people offguard as often as they do, as it takes forever to get them (both Hive and Greater Spire morphing give you signs). But then I suppose people aren't used to needing to scout zerg that often... Maybe one day Zergs will realise that you can Fungal Growth an army and pelt them with Broodlings from out of their range. You'd think the only unit with abilities in the entire Zerg arsenal was the Queen. It's like the ability to lock an army in position is considered worthless.
Facing 2 rax "all-in" every game, transitioning into marine/medivac/tank pressure while you struggle to just produce enough units to keep from getting steam rolled 4 minutes into the game doesn't leave much space to get infestors or brood lords.
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The mappool does somewhat favor terran in TvZ.
As for protoss, I get the impression that very few of them have actually managed to refine their gameplay.
For instance, if every protoss player could 4gate like MC (and there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to), we would see a ton more protoss advancing.
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On January 21 2011 05:22 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 05:19 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 05:10 DoubleReed wrote:So much balance whine. I honestly am only recently getting good enough to really notice issues that zerg has a problem with. But personally, I think most people are far too inexperienced with the game to have a good grasp of the balance problems. Not all of us are. But really, I think Idra summed it up very well: On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 17:01 Beef Noodles wrote:On December 29 2010 16:21 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote:all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200 indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg. Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win? I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol) zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters. and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army. if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled. zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that. Seriously, Idra makes several good points relating to several areas of gameplay. His point about earlygame and lategame disadvantage actually seems pretty accurate IMO. Personally, I'm surprised that broodlords DO catch people offguard as often as they do, as it takes forever to get them (both Hive and Greater Spire morphing give you signs). But then I suppose people aren't used to needing to scout zerg that often... Maybe one day Zergs will realise that you can Fungal Growth an army and pelt them with Broodlings from out of their range. You'd think the only unit with abilities in the entire Zerg arsenal was the Queen. It's like the ability to lock an army in position is considered worthless. Facing 2 rax "all-in" every game, transitioning into marine/medivac/tank pressure while you struggle to just produce enough units to keep from getting steam rolled 4 minutes into the game doesn't leave much space to get infestors or brood lords.
If only there was this structure that would act like a static defence that can move around that completly shuts down any early(4 minute yah) pressure.
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On January 21 2011 05:22 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 05:19 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 05:10 DoubleReed wrote:So much balance whine. I honestly am only recently getting good enough to really notice issues that zerg has a problem with. But personally, I think most people are far too inexperienced with the game to have a good grasp of the balance problems. Not all of us are. But really, I think Idra summed it up very well: On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 17:01 Beef Noodles wrote:On December 29 2010 16:21 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote:all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200 indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg. Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win? I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol) zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters. and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army. if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled. zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that. Seriously, Idra makes several good points relating to several areas of gameplay. His point about earlygame and lategame disadvantage actually seems pretty accurate IMO. Personally, I'm surprised that broodlords DO catch people offguard as often as they do, as it takes forever to get them (both Hive and Greater Spire morphing give you signs). But then I suppose people aren't used to needing to scout zerg that often... Maybe one day Zergs will realise that you can Fungal Growth an army and pelt them with Broodlings from out of their range. You'd think the only unit with abilities in the entire Zerg arsenal was the Queen. It's like the ability to lock an army in position is considered worthless. Facing 2 rax "all-in" every game, transitioning into marine/medivac/tank pressure while you struggle to just produce enough units to keep from getting steam rolled 4 minutes into the game doesn't leave much space to get infestors or brood lords.
For the record, I was referring to the late game, which everyone seems to be saying Zerg is weak in. Just clearing that up. And as for having very few options in the early game, deal with it. If every race had a shit ton of early game options there'd be build order wins all over the place. It's just a characteristic of the race. Though I wouldn't exactly weep if Bunkers required a higher bit of tech. An Engineering Bay sounds like a fitting choice.
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lol. The guys above dont know anything about zerg. How u want to win vs mobile units with slow ass units? How u wanna win games with only Fungal and Brood Lords? Infestors are cost inefficient since they can't attack, only have stupid spells that are useless in 99% of the battles. Its better to get upgrades than go for Infestors.
And I laugh at people that say " bigger maps - ZERG OP " It's just playin stupid.
How is that giving zerg an edge? Zerg finally will have some freedom, and won't be pinched in it's base like it is on Metal( Close pos.) Steppes, Delta, LT, Jungle Basin where Zerg can't take 3rd which is ridiculous. Now actually more Micro/Macro will come into play, and Terran will extinct cuz all they know right is how to go for 1+ a .
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On January 21 2011 05:29 wessie wrote:
lol. The guys above dont know anything about zerg. How u want to win vs mobile units with slow ass units? How u wanna win games with only Fungal and Brood Lords? Infestors are cost inefficient since they can't attack, only have stupid spells that are useless in 99% of the battles. Its better to get upgrades than go for Infestors.
Heard it here first guys, High Templars are useless.
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On January 21 2011 05:29 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 05:29 wessie wrote:
lol. The guys above dont know anything about zerg. How u want to win vs mobile units with slow ass units? How u wanna win games with only Fungal and Brood Lords? Infestors are cost inefficient since they can't attack, only have stupid spells that are useless in 99% of the battles. Its better to get upgrades than go for Infestors. Heard it here first guys, High Templars are useless.
Really wanna compare HT's to infestors? Really? are you that dumb?
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On January 21 2011 05:29 wessie wrote:
lol. The guys above dont know anything about zerg. How u want to win vs mobile units with slow ass units? How u wanna win games with only Fungal and Brood Lords? Infestors are cost inefficient since they can't attack, only have stupid spells that are useless in 99% of the battles. Its better to get upgrades than go for Infestors.
Holy shit I had no idea it was possible to be this retarded.
I cant think of a single encounter where fungal/IFM would be bad.
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I'm going to try and word this as best I can...
I think that maps play a large part in Terran success in tournaments. I also feel like there is still something very slight that needs to change. Remember when repairing SCV's weren't considered a target priority? I'm sure Terran players then had no problem with that and wouldn't acknowledge that as being imba, but I vehemently felt that was not right. I still feel the same way about Terran having a slight advantage in some way, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
I'm not a pro by any means, but I feel it's to easy for a Terran to sack his economy and all in base race (vs Zerg specifically because that's all I have experience with). One of Zergs biggest advantage is aslo one if it's biggest disadvantages in this case, and thats the fact that all of it's production comes from one structure.
Let's assume a 2 base Zerg is against a 1 base Terran. If he choses to all in and crush your hatchery he just reduced your production ability by 50% for at least the next 100 seconds for a hatchery build time, and another 50 seconds for a queen (another 25 seconds for the inject). Thats 2 minutes of 50% production of not only army, but workers as well. If the Terran did anything besides utterly fail, he will have retained some workers and dropped mules in the meantime whilst losing no structures.
It's simply too cost effective for Terran to do this and thats why you see it all the time. It's not cheesy or even as all in as it looks, it's just smart.
Now, the obvious response is "well don't let him kill your hatchery". But assuming two players of equal skill are playing, then the Terran army stronger unit per unit, in theory, simply needs to hit that critical point where a hatchery will be taken out. Because the Terran build has been optimized and built exactly to accomplish that goal, things like SCV count, building count, army count can be exact. Whilst the Zerg is in the dark wondering whats going to come at him. God forbid he just made a round of drones before scouting the Terran army rolling out. A stimmed Terran force can cross most positions of most maps before another round of larva pops.
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Zerg feels broken right now.
Lack of Scouting ability. Every Player rushes / all-ins vs. zerg.
you cannot adapt, every unit is hard countered!
Protoss players lack the skill of MC to be successful in high lvl play.
The Terran Attack Cancelling is fucking OP, Marine DMG is too high and they have mules -.-
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Look at it this way:
How many times do we see protoss and zerg try an all in, it fails miserably, and then they quit because they know there is no way to catch back up?
What about terran?
Banshees can end the game. Blue flame hellions can end the game. An early marine push while expanding can end the game. Throw any of these units in a medivac, and it can end the game. Make any mixture of them, and it can end the game.
The real problem with this is, these attacks can fail soooo horribly, like "terran might as well have killed his own units" horribly, and they still have a very solid shot at coming back to win the game, because they can just turtle up and rebuild a critical mass of their extremely cost effective units.
Oh and to the people who are saying terran is fine, and especially to the people who are upset that this is even being talked about - please explain to me how a zerg can recover from a double bunker wall in without being behind.
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On January 21 2011 05:31 wessie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 05:29 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 05:29 wessie wrote:
lol. The guys above dont know anything about zerg. How u want to win vs mobile units with slow ass units? How u wanna win games with only Fungal and Brood Lords? Infestors are cost inefficient since they can't attack, only have stupid spells that are useless in 99% of the battles. Its better to get upgrades than go for Infestors. Heard it here first guys, High Templars are useless. Really wanna compare HT's to infestors? Really? are you that dumb?
Infestors have an attack that not only does AoE damage akin to Psionic Storm, but also LOCKS UNITS IN PLACE. You know those Marines that your Banelings are chasing? FUNGAL THEM. You know that Protoss ground army with range 6 Stalkers? FUNGAL THEM AND PELT THEM WITH BROODLINGS. Oh god, my mind.
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I think, Z is statistically not that much behind, but it is the most unreliable and unstable race. Some wrong or failed scout and you easily loose. Because its hard to get stable results as Z, Z fall short in tourney's (as its hard to perform well a couple of subsequent games ).
Additionally there is a psychological construction fault, which makes Z race somewhat unattractive: you are doomed to play reactionary and there are few options. So its both frustrating being the "victim-race" and boring due to the lack of variation in response to opponents build. Its practically impossible to be agressive and dictate the game as Z.
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On January 21 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:
Look at it this way:
How many times do we see protoss and zerg try an all in, it fails miserably, and then they quit because they know there is no way to catch back up?
What about terran?
Banshees can end the game. Blue flame hellions can end the game. An early marine push while expanding can end the game. Throw any of these units in a medivac, and it can end the game. Make any mixture of them, and it can end the game.
The real problem with this is, these attacks can fail soooo horribly, like "terran might as well have killed his own units" horribly, and they still have a very solid shot at coming back to win the game, because they can just turtle up and rebuild a critical mass of their extremely cost effective units.
None of the drops you mentioned are by any stretch of the imagination "all-in".
You might want to look up the SC defeniton of all-in, if you can come back from it its not all in at all >_>
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I think this is a player preference (More players pick T, so more T succeed)
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The OP missed a poll option that I feel is the biggest. Terran has more ways to come back into the game. What I mean by this is that a terran drop serves more purpose as a zerg or toss b/c it doubles as a medic. Other then that they have things like the planetary that allow them to spread the defense thinly. The other big on is the Banshee, although this unit is quite the glass cannon with great control it can take out a good chunk of a persons economy.
These 3 things dont make terran imba, they all have there exploits and all create there own timing windows. However given the right situation in the right window of time a terran can use any one of these 3 to give them a one up on there opponent
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On January 21 2011 05:24 Sonictonic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 05:22 Sm3agol wrote:On January 21 2011 05:19 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 05:10 DoubleReed wrote:So much balance whine. I honestly am only recently getting good enough to really notice issues that zerg has a problem with. But personally, I think most people are far too inexperienced with the game to have a good grasp of the balance problems. Not all of us are. But really, I think Idra summed it up very well: On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 17:01 Beef Noodles wrote:On December 29 2010 16:21 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote:all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200 indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg. Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win? I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol) zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters. and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army. if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled. zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that. Seriously, Idra makes several good points relating to several areas of gameplay. His point about earlygame and lategame disadvantage actually seems pretty accurate IMO. Personally, I'm surprised that broodlords DO catch people offguard as often as they do, as it takes forever to get them (both Hive and Greater Spire morphing give you signs). But then I suppose people aren't used to needing to scout zerg that often... Maybe one day Zergs will realise that you can Fungal Growth an army and pelt them with Broodlings from out of their range. You'd think the only unit with abilities in the entire Zerg arsenal was the Queen. It's like the ability to lock an army in position is considered worthless. Facing 2 rax "all-in" every game, transitioning into marine/medivac/tank pressure while you struggle to just produce enough units to keep from getting steam rolled 4 minutes into the game doesn't leave much space to get infestors or brood lords. If only there was this structure that would act like a static defence that can move around that completly shuts down any early(4 minute yah) pressure.
If only there was this unit that would outrange this static defence that can move around (seriously, spinecralwers are so imba, nerf please) and shuts down the utility of this uber insane static defence that can actually move around (once again, wtf, so imba, nerf spinecralwers).
Not at a 4 Minute push, but at a ~7 min push.
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On January 21 2011 05:36 Sonictonic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:
Look at it this way:
How many times do we see protoss and zerg try an all in, it fails miserably, and then they quit because they know there is no way to catch back up?
What about terran?
Banshees can end the game. Blue flame hellions can end the game. An early marine push while expanding can end the game. Throw any of these units in a medivac, and it can end the game. Make any mixture of them, and it can end the game.
The real problem with this is, these attacks can fail soooo horribly, like "terran might as well have killed his own units" horribly, and they still have a very solid shot at coming back to win the game, because they can just turtle up and rebuild a critical mass of their extremely cost effective units. None of the drops you mentioned are by any stretch of the imagination "all-in". You might want to look up the SC defeniton of all-in, if you can come back from it its not all in at all >_>
That was my whole point, terran can do ANYTHING save sending all their SCVs, and it isn't an all in. Even when they send the SCVs, it's not always an all in.
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EPT
