To me the problem is that the MULE, marines, and bunkers. Because of the extra mineral income, T can at any point, especially early, pressure zerg or protoss just using the "extra" income from mules. The only point where MULES hurt the terran is the very very late game where everything is mined out faster.
If a terran bunkers anywhere near to your ramp, you must account for it. Less drones, more weak low tier units. The terran can afford to bring 1-2 scv's to repair because the MULEs keep his econ up. If it fails, he's just expended the mineral income from the MULE. Since zerg and toss don't have a way to exploit a terran's lack of scans at that point, they come out behind or at best even, after the rush fails. Terran can also commit many units to pressure and lift his buildings to create a very robust wall to block a counterattack.
T isn't necessarily broken, but there are distinct advantages while the advantages of protoss and zerg are less apparent. With the current maps/strats known, the zerg or protoss need to be much better to get a win.
On January 21 2011 03:26 cerebralz wrote: The only point where MULES hurt the terran is the very very late game where everything is mined out faster. .
And then they can just suicide their workers and gain a gigantic army of already ridiculously cost efficient units
Most races can invest in tech that will be worth the investment in the next 3-5 min Terran has alot of tech that becomes worth the investment instantly.
It's stupid to call Terran OP when certain positions and maps don't allow them to win overwhelmingly. Right now, the map pool is just Terran favored. That's it. Blizzard needs to stop tweaking races and completely revamp some maps.
On January 21 2011 03:20 Tachion wrote: Terran has really good defensive options in the form of repair, siege tanks, PF's and bunkers that it allows them to be aggressive without nearly as much risk as Z or P. Terran also has more options than the other races in ways to be aggressive, such as Hellions, drops, and banshees. All of these are highly mobile and can do massive damage if unscouted.
They seem to have the best of both worlds and can set the pace of the game however they prefer.
That's what I feel is out of whack currently; the risk/reward ratio in some of T's common strats. I'm not prepared to say this is inherent imbalance, as it may well result from other races simply not developing the proper ways to punish these strats yet.
Or that maps are not designed with these kinds of strats in mind (longer rush distances would increase the risk of early aggression). However, I definetely agree that T seems to set the pace in both of their matchups.
all I must ask is does no one remember the early BW days where Terran was on top for...how long? BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov...it will even out but for the moment i feel that more people just pick terran so there will be more in the later stages because there are just so many players that pick terran, most likely because all starcraft games start with terran then go to the other races so people are more comfortable with terran
On January 21 2011 03:20 Tachion wrote: Terran has really good defensive options in the form of repair, siege tanks, PF's and bunkers that it allows them to be aggressive without nearly as much risk as Z or P. Terran also has more options than the other races in ways to be aggressive, such as Hellions, drops, and banshees. All of these are highly mobile and can do massive damage if unscouted.
They seem to have the best of both worlds and can set the pace of the game however they prefer.
That's what I feel is out of whack currently; the risk/reward ratio in some of T's common strats. I'm not prepared to say this is inherent imbalance, as it may well result from other races simply not developing the proper ways to punish these strats yet. Or that maps are not designed with these kinds of strats in mind (longer rush distances would increase the risk of early aggression). However, I definetely agree that T seems to set the pace in both of their matchups.
The issue is that the ability to punish T strategies for cheesy / greedy play is almost impossible when Blizzard basically nerfs any type of strategy that forces certain reactions from T players.
Marines. Tanks. Quick, name one scenario where the T sees "X", then should just basically gg and quit, because he knows he is done, short of mass unit "y". Exactly. Marines, tanks, and scan can hold ANYTHING off.
LOL ? mass broodlords or broodlords+ roaches... high templars + immortals... tank marine is good early game , the terran thing is that it can go for tanks or thors pretty easilly teching with terran is not too hard thats true...
On January 21 2011 02:52 IntoTheBush wrote: i bet all the protoss players put that Terran is OP lol. sad a-movers. Part of the reason is the maps, and the other part is the Terran players are just better players. Put any of those Terran players on Protoss or Zerg for a couple months and they will probably win the whole GSL.
MKP with zerling and banelings would pretty much own every terran with banelings split... and MKP with Blink Stalkers would own everyone too if thats what you want to know , like MC pretty much owns every race every game..
If the terran players on the GSL arent better than the protoss or zerg , you do believe that if blizzard starts nerfing terran again Jinro will pretty much dissapear ? Thats what youre trying to say right? Because i can see a big difference in Jinro and MKP skill ..
Well, if he played toss, he could probably 4gate a ton of people to death... with the higher auto regen in SC2... ( don't need to wait for starport/medivacs ) or constant stalker harass while expanding...
both could macro fine, but the difference in micro is quick big, is it not? It's like he just chooses to use rines almost exclusively while the other ones favour more mech units because they're more comfortable with them...and that he could switch to the other units with relative ease...
early 3/3 units over more gas units might be nice, too...
[B]On January 21 2011 03:09 IntoTheBush wrote: You obviously never played Terran, and haven't made it out of Plat yet. So lets move on to your quotes, and how they make no sense.
Wrong. I played T to start out. With zero RTS experience, and having never played BW, or the beta, and having just watched a few streams.....i had a MMM bo open on my second monitor, went 5-0 in placement, and would have been diamond in a few days if had actually kept playing T. But I tanked my rating to bronze, where I farked around with Z, failed miserably, then switched to toss, and am slowly moving back up, but just don't care as much about ranking up any more. I actually watch streams/replays far more than I actually play.
"But a very low risk, high reward harass like an 8 marine drop when the enemy is out of position can completely swing the game back to even. And no other race has the same ability." Looks like somebody has never heard of a warp prism, or a proxy pylon. Also you know those annoying things called Mutalisks? get 12 of those and u can cause havoc for a Terran player who doesnt have a Thor or more than 3 Turrets in his main. So there's one point where you're wrong. Lets move onto the 2nd.
LOL? A warp prism which can dump a max of 4 units out, not including super fragile warp-ins, and can be destroyed in 2 seconds by 4 stimmed marines, which can also kite anything not stalkers into infinity?? Proxy pylon? What? How do you get a proxy pylon into a Ts base unless they are just rofl bad. Oh, yeah, and you know those annoying things called mutalisks? Yeah, 12 stimmed marines can wreck some mutas. They'll lose to twelve mutas, but cost for cost its ridiculous how effective marines are. P.S., marines are first units you can get. And so, that point alone proves me right. Tier 1 marines hard counter tier 2.5 mutas. This discussion is over.
"A cloak banshee rush is a standard Terran bo that can 100% destroy many P/Z bos, and yet not only does it only barely put T behind, but it can end the game RIGHT THERE." Ok once again my friend you are wrong. Any HIGH level Diamond player or Master League player can easily prepare for Banshee. Honestly I don't remember when I HAVEN'T played a P or Z who wasnt nearly prepared or already prepared for possible Banshee. Also once that fails that leaves u with what? MAYBE 2 barracks, and ur natural just completing.. while P or Z already has their 3 gates, or Zerg double injecting larva and making a rofflestomp army. Terran is behind MORE than just a little bit if Banshee fails. Next to good ol' quote number 3.
The thing is, those diamond/master players MUST prepare for banshees, because not doing so = instaloss if the t does go for banshees, and they have no effective means of scouting those banshees until they cruise into your base. And lets say you epic fail with those banshees. Well that's cool, you probably have at least 10-15 marines out, and your banshees are still alive, so you just swap your factory over to your tech lab, drop a few bunkers for your marines, and 1 minute later you have 2 siege tanks chilling in front of your base while you prepare your CC in base, while your medivac you built off your "rushed" starport is now on the way to your enemies main with 8 marines where his stims, kills off 10 workers and then retreats with no losses, putting you back equal. Just another day at the office for T, where nothing you do is all-in. Once again.....you fail.
"You can literally lose your entire army as a T, and as long as you have a couple bunkers up, 400 minerals(2 MULEs) worth of marines, 2 siege tanks, and 4 repairing scvs, you can hold off anything short of basically an all-in push by your opponent. And this turtling abilty won't win you games outright, but it just gives your opponent that many more chances to make a mistake that puts the t right back into the game." I mean I honestly don't even have to say anything for this one... BUT I will. First off 95% of Terran players destroy their bunkers and use the marines before they move out for an attack. Second off after you kill your opponents entire army why are u going straight in for an attack? That is if you don't have the ROFLSTOMP army. If you kill their entire army your next move is to expand, get map control, and not sucide what units you have left.
You don't know what to say because........you have no argument. bunkers are 100 minerals worth of completely refundable solid gold as a defensive structure. If your attack fails, dropping two bunkers takes 30 seconds, and with 4 marines in each + repair can hold off far more than 600 minerals worth of attacking units. And yes, I know the answer to killing your opponent off when your opponent is T is expanding, but only because they can turtle until they run out of resources and be safe. Vs Z, if you rape their entire standing army before the "300 supply zerg" point, then you can push right in and rape their base 90% of the time, because they have no wall-off and no effective defensive structures that can hold off marines/tanks/anything. If toss loses their death ball, then they are dead, and most just gg on the spot after losing their entire standing army. T can just turtle for a while, pull off a few lucky drop harass, and be right back in the game 3 minutes later if their opponent screws up at all.
Maybe you should start watching the Day[9] daily's and you won't sound completely wrong when you post.
Maybe you should start watching actual games where T's pull all kind of ridiculous bs to win games they have no business winning, instead of day9 dailys telling people how to make pylons and probes while you 2 rax "all-in" into 1 base marine/tank/thor/scv repair every game and think you're pro. I watch day9 all the time, btw.
When he says 400 minerals ( 2 mules ), is that a joke or something...? Mules mine up to ( 240-270 ) on blue minerals ( long distance / 240 ( Dies before the 9th cargo gets back home ) // ( short distance / 270 )
In BW T had the same turtling capabilities, it's just that mules allow them to recover faster after failed attacks, which is a really bad mechanic. Before in BW T's had to be very careful with how they attack, because one failed attack means the game was over for them. One failed attack here in SC2 means they are still in the game, even if they are at a slight disadvantage.
On January 21 2011 03:39 superstartran wrote: In BW T had the same turtling capabilities, it's just that mules allow them to recover faster after failed attacks, which is a really bad mechanic. Before in BW T's had to be very careful with how they attack, because one failed attack means the game was over for them. One failed attack here in SC2 means they are still in the game, even if they are at a slight disadvantage.
So just like how Zerg can reload after an attack.. Terrans can also stay in th egame after an attack?
Yeah ur right T is OP bullshit gimmicky mechanics.
The double standards from Zerg users is mind boggling.
I just feel that Zerg need more time to drone/make units, PvT as far as I see is balanced, ZvP and ZvT just has terrible maps where Zerg can not get enough of an economy while staying reasonably safe. P is not weaker than Terran with Colossus, Sentries and Templar who are all amazing units.
On January 21 2011 03:39 superstartran wrote: In BW T had the same turtling capabilities, it's just that mules allow them to recover faster after failed attacks, which is a really bad mechanic. Before in BW T's had to be very careful with how they attack, because one failed attack means the game was over for them. One failed attack here in SC2 means they are still in the game, even if they are at a slight disadvantage.
So just like how Zerg can reload after an attack.. Terrans can also stay in th egame after an attack?
Yeah ur right T is OP bullshit gimmicky mechanics.
The double standards from Zerg users is mind boggling.
I play P.
fuck the system
Yeah because I play Z. Oh wait, I play P and smash T players all the time.
The issue is that in BW was that T was too hard to play for most people on the planet. In SC2, T has far too many forgiving mechanics, even more so then P who in general is already forgiving of a race as it is (instant warp ins, shield regeneration, etc.)
Z cannot just reload instantly after an attack. If you were any decent at this game you would know that. T and P pressure forces Z to constantly make troops, thus meaning he will not have piles of resources / larvae saved up to instantly rebuild an army, especially if he is expanding properly.
On January 21 2011 03:42 Eppa! wrote: I just feel that Zerg need more time to drone/make units, PvT as far as I see is balanced, ZvP and ZvT just has terrible maps Zerg can not get enough of an economy while stay reasonably safe. P is not weaker than Terran with Colossus, Sentries and Templar who are all amazing units.
Horseshit. P is weaker than T because at best when both sides are played properly, T and P are relatively even mid to late game due to the multitude of options T has at harassing, while P having an incredibly strong deathball. Money EMPs, PDD, scan, and Tanks are all very strong late game, and anyone who has been watching GSL knows that T late game is not as weak as many people (especially the T players on this forum) thought.
The issue is that T holds a HUGE advantage early game, being able to dictate play right from the start. The ability to end games with 1 base pushes that can transition into expansions is just hilarious (Marine/PDD push for example is not an all-in, and can easily be transitioned into an expo).
Terran just has too many subtle advantages over other races, and these subtleties have a powerful synergy with the entire terran army as a whole making it extremely cost effective. Smart fire for siege tanks is one, the removal of the inferior medic freed up the barracks for more attacking units production and the heal bus is a more efficient healer at range and gives vision of cliffs without the need of a scan (when was the last time you abused a ledge on a terran?--->map has more than zero cliff?=terran favor). Marines and marauders having the same range makes them ball up more efficiently further enhancing the effectiveness of heal bus and creates a no micro required phalanx attack/defense formation(=no divide and conquer). Stim micro has also been improved in that the time a ranged unit has to wait after stopping before it can shoot has been made nearly non-existant. These are just the roots of the terran army as a whole, and from what i see. There is just more computer/game mechanic assist in the areas of (required)APM and strategy/tactics for terran compared to the other races. So its just easier to do well with Terran and thats why they are so prominent in all tournaments. But fruit dealer took all that shit and slam dunked it in Terran face!
EPT
