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Fumi
529 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:57 SuperYo1000 wrote: lol...but if marine king went with protoss....he would just attack with zealots and probes? No, he would continue building marines regardless. | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
On January 21 2011 03:00 Fumi wrote: No, he would continue building marines regardless. If you watched some of MK (Claire in BW) replays from BW, he loved his dragoons. He had pretty good dragoon control too. | ||
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Fumi
529 Posts
On January 21 2011 03:04 KevinIX wrote: If you watched some of MK (Claire in BW) replays from BW, he loved his dragoons. He had pretty good dragoon control too. I've watched his BW games, it was just a silly joke. Didn't Foxer say in an interview he's been trying to incorporate BC play? I might just love him forever if he somehow manages to do that. | ||
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IntoTheBush
United States552 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:41 Sm3agol wrote: I'm spending way too much time at work thinking about T, and I think I realize why T is 'op", and it really isn't unit based, map-based, etc. It's mechanics and ability based. Basically it comes down to the fact that a T is NEVER out of the game. The T has such useful units and abilities that if a t makes a huge mistake and loses most of his army, and, say, and expo, then yes he is behind. But because of the extremely high skill ceiling and usefulness of most of the T units, a simple mistake on the part of his opponent like misjudging the proximity and number of a siege tank line can put the T right back into the game. A T can screw up and lose 50% of his economy and 90% of his army. BA T has abilities that while completely counterable, can put them back into a "lost" game with little to no additional risk to themselves. Also, NO bo that isn't ridiculous isn't viable into midgame. No Terran bo is all-in. Not even proxy faking 2 rax is all-in. A 2 rax 10 scv pull is not all in. A cloak banshee rush is a standard Terran bo that can 100% destroy many P/Z bos, and yet not only does it only barely put T behind, but it can end the game RIGHT THERE. That is completely, 100%, totally farked up. Yes it's easily counterable, but the mere fact it exists is complete bs. If you go for a cheesy build that can gg your opponent just on bo, then it should incur huge risks for you to do it. You can literally lose your entire army as a T, and as long as you have a couple bunkers up, 400 minerals(2 MULEs) worth of marines, 2 siege tanks, and 4 repairing scvs, you can hold off anything short of basically an all-in push by your opponent. And this turtling abilty won't win you games outright, but it just gives your opponent that many more chances to make a mistake that puts the t right back into the game. Marines. Tanks. Quick, name one scenario where the T sees "X", then should just basically gg and quit, because he knows he is done, short of mass unit "y". Exactly. Marines, tanks, and scan can hold ANYTHING off. You obviously never played Terran, and haven't made it out of Plat yet. So lets move on to your quotes, and how they make no sense. "But a very low risk, high reward harass like an 8 marine drop when the enemy is out of position can completely swing the game back to even. And no other race has the same ability." Looks like somebody has never heard of a warp prism, or a proxy pylon. Also you know those annoying things called Mutalisks? get 12 of those and u can cause havoc for a Terran player who doesnt have a Thor or more than 3 Turrets in his main. So there's one point where you're wrong. Lets move onto the 2nd. "A cloak banshee rush is a standard Terran bo that can 100% destroy many P/Z bos, and yet not only does it only barely put T behind, but it can end the game RIGHT THERE." Ok once again my friend you are wrong. Any HIGH level Diamond player or Master League player can easily prepare for Banshee. Honestly I don't remember when I HAVEN'T played a P or Z who wasnt nearly prepared or already prepared for possible Banshee. Also once that fails that leaves u with what? MAYBE 2 barracks, and ur natural just completing.. while P or Z already has their 3 gates, or Zerg double injecting larva and making a rofflestomp army. Terran is behind MORE than just a little bit if Banshee fails. Next to good ol' quote number 3. "You can literally lose your entire army as a T, and as long as you have a couple bunkers up, 400 minerals(2 MULEs) worth of marines, 2 siege tanks, and 4 repairing scvs, you can hold off anything short of basically an all-in push by your opponent. And this turtling abilty won't win you games outright, but it just gives your opponent that many more chances to make a mistake that puts the t right back into the game." I mean I honestly don't even have to say anything for this one... BUT I will. First off 95% of Terran players destroy their bunkers and use the marines before they move out for an attack. Second off after you kill your opponents entire army why are u going straight in for an attack? That is if you don't have the ROFLSTOMP army. If you kill their entire army your next move is to expand, get map control, and not sucide what units you have left. Maybe you should start watching the Day[9] daily's and you won't sound completely wrong when you post. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Protoss and especially zerg just have way less aggresive options whereas terrans can do anything ranging from MM pushes to bluehellion drops to banshee harass etc. Also every idiot that brings up the fact terran hasn't won GSL (yet) should really be shot. It's the most stupid argument there is as there have only been 3 GSL, if you however look at match %s in GSL you can clearly see that T > P, P > Z and T = Z for the 3 matchups. Most gsl's had P being knocked out by T while Z got knocked out by P. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:41 Sm3agol wrote: Also, NO bo that isn't ridiculous isn't viable into midgame. No Terran bo is all-in. Not even proxy faking 2 rax is all-in. A 2 rax 10 scv pull is not all in. A cloak banshee rush is a standard Terran bo that can 100% destroy many P/Z bos, and yet not only does it only barely put T behind, but it can end the game RIGHT THERE. That is completely, 100%, totally farked up. Yes it's easily counterable, but the mere fact it exists is complete bs. If you go for a cheesy build that can gg your opponent just on bo, then it should incur huge risks for you to do it. This is an important point, terran can recover from almost any cheese/all-in. There is almost no risk to it, partially because they can easily defend with so little it is too risky to try and punish them after an attack fails. Zerg can literally wipe the floor with wave after wave of failed terran attacks and it is still to risky for them to try and attack, so they take over the map instead. Whoever said "terran has a monopoly on aggression until late game" said it best. That sums it all up right there. Terran early aggression is both more potent and less risky. Zerg can do what? Baneling bust all-in or roach rush all-in, if those attacks fail the zerg is fucked. Only those attacks are far less powerful than a number of terran pushes, and terran can recover from them almost as if they didn't happen. That is why terran does it all the time, and that is why zerg almost never does it. | ||
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zDUST
Finland165 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:57 da_head wrote: did you fuck up your ff so hard that it trapped your guys? gg lol | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On January 21 2011 01:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Easier to play terran safely when you are the better player, as well as easier to play terran cheesily when you arent. EDIT: My clairvoyance tells me this is going to get quoted along with a bunker rush game from not too long ago. Yes, but this is a very big deal. If you're a much stronger terran player than the zerg player, you can really play in such a way that you'll win 95%+ of the time because the ZvT cheeses are pretty terrible and there aren't as many build order losses. And if you're playing against a much, much better zerg a terran player can russian roulette between a few different all-ins that can be pretty tough to defend against all of them (not impossible necessarily, just really tough). That in addition to how deceptive the 2-rax itself is, a strong all-in and a quick expand build that look almost identical. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On January 21 2011 03:09 IntoTheBush wrote: Second off after you kill your opponents entire army why are u going straight in for an attack? That is if you don't have the ROFLSTOMP army. If you kill their entire army your next move is to expand, get map control, and not sucide what units you have left. Yet this is exactly what terran does, if zerg attacks and the attack fails, terran can and will come finish them off. No one can be honest and dispute the fact that zerg almost never attacks in ZvT, and zerg is basically a punching bag for the majority of the matchup. | ||
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traca
146 Posts
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tapk69
Portugal264 Posts
Marines. Tanks. Quick, name one scenario where the T sees "X", then should just basically gg and quit, because he knows he is done, short of mass unit "y". Exactly. Marines, tanks, and scan can hold ANYTHING off. LOL ? mass broodlords or broodlords+ roaches... high templars + immortals... tank marine is good early game , the terran thing is that it can go for tanks or thors pretty easilly teching with terran is not too hard thats true... On January 21 2011 02:52 IntoTheBush wrote: i bet all the protoss players put that Terran is OP lol. sad a-movers. Part of the reason is the maps, and the other part is the Terran players are just better players. Put any of those Terran players on Protoss or Zerg for a couple months and they will probably win the whole GSL. MKP with zerling and banelings would pretty much own every terran with banelings split... and MKP with Blink Stalkers would own everyone too if thats what you want to know , like MC pretty much owns every race every game.. If the terran players on the GSL arent better than the protoss or zerg , you do believe that if blizzard starts nerfing terran again Jinro will pretty much dissapear ? Thats what youre trying to say right? Because i can see a big difference in Jinro and MKP skill .. | ||
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kvn4444
1510 Posts
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Deltawolf
United States105 Posts
Zerg still has to find a standard which is a little safer against a few builds and Protoss still hasn't fleshed out Stargate play and warp prisms at all hardly.. No one knows where the Void Ray is really going end up role-wise anymore. Some people still harass, others like White-Ra are going Colossus Void Ray against Z. It's a little bit of a ambiguous. | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:29 Neo.NEt wrote: GSL MKP spoilers below: + Show Spoiler + MKP is such a beast I can't believe people on here hate on him. Yeah he all-ined that one game against Nada, but the other two games MKP had ABSOLUTELY no business winning yet he thought quick on his feet and out microed the hell out of NADA. It wasn't sanZenith he was playing.. it was Nada... and Nada looked like he had no idea what to do while MKP looked like a natural. Yeah, he gets a lot of marines, but I'm 99% certain that he could adapt in getting a ton of marines stopped working. For gods sake... who else can mass marines aganist banelings and win? Pretty sure he could figure out the other units too... Nada lost a lot of tanks earlier so he couldn't get the 12+ Tanks that kill everything with overlapping splash damage.../overkill damage... He usually only had like 4-6... He didn't make any more vikings... for vision or like forward scan to get all 13 range for the tanks... Most of the time he was using them unsieged, too, and wasn't slowing moving up also takes a long time to siege up in time, so he didn't get like 2 free volleys on any of the engagements... before they started getting attacked ( Tanks only see up to 11, but can hit 13 if they had extra vision somehow from other units ) Tank/hellion/3/3/blueflame/double armory could kill all of the toss ground units ( colossus/immortal included ) MKP went for more mobility though, while the other one sacrificed mobility for higher potential damage given that MKP usually goes for rines, he'd most likely try to up to 3/3 in a TvT... ( less tanks = more gas for upgrades too ) //He could do something similar to what maka did with ravens/bcs... they looked pretty fun to play + he would most likely start off with rines ( which he's really good at using ) for most of the transitions into higher tier tech | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On January 21 2011 03:15 tapk69 wrote: MKP with zerling and banelings would pretty much own every terran with banelings split... and MKP with Blink Stalkers would own everyone too if thats what you want to know , like MC pretty much owns every race every game.. Not true at all. Even if you have godly micro to split the banelings to follow each group of split marines, banelings are not cost effective if they explode on small groups of marines and you would be shitting your gas away to kill dirt cheap marines. MKP is certainly very good, but it's stupid that what he does with tier 1 is even possible. | ||
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Avril_Lavigne
United States446 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:19 Sm3agol wrote: This amazing. A zerg has to sac an overlord for a CHANCE(and a quite small chance) to scout behind the terran wall. In all likelihood, he's going to see something like 3 marines, a rax, and a supply depot before it dies if the t placed its buildings correctly. And now you suggest that every Toss do a 1-1-1 build every game vs Terran just to counter the fact that T's can wall-off safely 3 minutes into the game. And "just go robo" is a perfect example of why T is stupid sometimes. A race is almost FORCED to go a particular tech route vs Terran, because not doing it = a 100% bo loss. A T, on the other hand suffers from no such thing. Tier 1 marines can hold off anything in the game. Your OC you get at 15 supply nullifies any and all cloak harass, not to mention Ts usually wall off anyways, so DTs can't even get in the base at all half the time. Do you see? The other races can get gg'ed by a simple bo by Terran. A terran NEVER is killed by a simple rock-paper-scissors bo. How is this any different from Broodwar? It was almost always forced to get an observer quick in PvT. Zergs had to sac overlords too. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
They seem to have the best of both worlds and can set the pace of the game however they prefer. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On January 21 2011 03:12 MorefaSho wrote: Yes, but this is a very big deal. If you're a much stronger terran player than the zerg player, you can really play in such a way that you'll win 95%+ of the time because the ZvT cheeses are pretty terrible and there aren't as many build order losses. And if you're playing against a much, much better zerg a terran player can russian roulette between a few different all-ins that can be pretty tough to defend against all of them (not impossible necessarily, just really tough). That in addition to how deceptive the 2-rax itself is, a strong all-in and a quick expand build that look almost identical. In BW when Sparks Terran was popular Oov started going 2 Rax FE in order to fake an all in, but rather would expand behind the fake aggression. 2 Rax expand is nothing new. If anything it has been nerfed due to the lack of early medics. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
This game clearly has balance issues, as I think is pretty much ubiquitously agreed upon, however I think A LOT of how these perceived imbalances express themselves is in the Metagame. It's all about how people play the game. • Many of the Blizzard Maps reward one-base play styles, therefore one base plays have become extremely refined. • The one base plays are then exploited on maps with random spawn positions which could include "Close by Ground." • Zerg canon, as perpetuated by pro commentators and strategists, suggests they have no one base play options. This belief creates an obvious disadvantages. • SC2 canon suggests that Zerg is the "Macro reactionary race" which has created a tremendous advantage in play styles on large maps. I could be way off base, but I think there is some merit to this train of thought. | ||
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dekuschrub
United States2069 Posts
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