EPTwhen will this mule is op bs ever stop
Why so much Terran success in GSL? - Page 13
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MisterTea
United Kingdom1047 Posts
when will this mule is op bs ever stop | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:09 MisterTea wrote: 4 mules is better than 3base zerg lol? when will this mule is op bs ever stop http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Griffith_4OC_(vs._Zerg) | ||
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
Terran is the most refined and mature race in the game with regards to how many Blizzard hours has been invested into them. And: Most of the official maps blatantly favor terran. Improve the map pool, and the situation will be good. When GSL removed map veto this just compounded the problem too. | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:10 Jermstuddog wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Griffith_4OC_(vs._Zerg) Most of those games never show the zerg having 24x3 on blue minerals with the terran having 4mules+24x2 on blue minerals though... ( not including workers on gas ) already saw most of those | ||
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ChaosWielder
United States166 Posts
On January 21 2011 01:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Easier to play terran safely when you are the better player, as well as easier to play terran cheesily when you arent. EDIT: My clairvoyance tells me this is going to get quoted along with a bunker rush game from not too long ago. I'm quoting this because the man knows what he's talking about. Also, I would like to raise the question as to whether or not, balance talks being put to the side, if this is even the type of Terran we want. MarineKingPrime is a talented enough player, but it troubles me that we are basically having two units, Marines and Medivacs, being used the whole game to such effect. I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the game--again, balance aside--when essentially 1 unit can dominate the game so handily. It doesn't make for an interesting game to watch, and I think that really ought to be a concern. | ||
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
Okay? and how many truhjillion Terran openings are there? You say that zerg has to sac an overlord, etc, I'd say the 100 minerals is worth the trade for valuable information. Against toss, ever since MC's popular opening protoss's can abuse a wall of with a void ray how about that? And remember the time when blizzard buffed the observer? reducing it's cost? Where's the complaint on that? But you believe that protoss is forced to go robo just to scout terran, well why don't you try to put together a very solid build order uses robo. Many protosses these days are able to 1 gate fast expand even against 3 rax marines or perhaps all ins as well. This amazing. A zerg has to sac an overlord for a CHANCE(and a quite small chance) to scout behind the terran wall. In all likelihood, he's going to see something like 3 marines, a rax, and a supply depot before it dies if the t placed its buildings correctly. And now you suggest that every Toss do a 1-1-1 build every game vs Terran just to counter the fact that T's can wall-off safely 3 minutes into the game. And "just go robo" is a perfect example of why T is stupid sometimes. A race is almost FORCED to go a particular tech route vs Terran, because not doing it = a 100% bo loss. A T, on the other hand suffers from no such thing. Tier 1 marines can hold off anything in the game. Your OC you get at 15 supply nullifies any and all cloak harass, not to mention Ts usually wall off anyways, so DTs can't even get in the base at all half the time. Do you see? The other races can get gg'ed by a simple bo by Terran. A terran NEVER is killed by a simple rock-paper-scissors bo. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
note how i said decent strategy? so i have to resort to a semi all in if terran decides to macro? and if he holds it off (by putting up free bunkers), then im 100% fucked? why not just flip a coin instead? | ||
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tapk69
Portugal264 Posts
A-MOVE , click , A-MOVE? is that so ? wow youre are good , so you haven,t seen MKP send 1 marine ahead stimmed , then split the marines 4 times and do that again over and over when a simple misclick killed all his forces? you havent seen this while doing scvs , expanding , teching ? so a guy who does everything right all games suck? You all say Jinro is so good , yes he is good , yes i do love to see him play , have you seen him do marine spliting 30x a game? No ... because he could lose the whole game with bad clicks.. but MKP doesnt care he just entertains us .. | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:13 nalgene wrote: Most of those games never show the zerg having 24x3 on blue minerals with the terran having 4mules+24x2 on blue minerals though... ( not including workers on gas ) already saw most of those The whole point of the strategy hinges on the fact that if Zerg spends ANY larva on drones, he throws the game due to the brute-force that MULEs + Marines gives Terrans. Once those MULEs start dropping and Terran starts making 14+ Marines per 25 seconds, Zerg has to match this production with blings of their own. I love the 4OC build because it shows just how broken the MULE/Marine combo really is. Zerg gets stuck at T2 with inefficient counters while Terran is free to do whatever he wants. Awesome mechanics IMO. | ||
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:20 da_head wrote: note how i said decent strategy? so i have to resort to a semi all in if terran decides to macro? and if he holds it off (by putting up free bunkers), then im 100% fucked? why not just flip a coin instead? It's not all-in. It's the strongest opening P has right now. You can simply expand if it fails since you'll do so much damage anyway. | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + MKP is such a beast I can't believe people on here hate on him. Yeah he all-ined that one game against Nada, but the other two games MKP had ABSOLUTELY no business winning yet he thought quick on his feet and out microed the hell out of NADA. It wasn't sanZenith he was playing.. it was Nada... and Nada looked like he had no idea what to do while MKP looked like a natural. Yeah, he gets a lot of marines, but I'm 99% certain that he could adapt in getting a ton of marines stopped working. For gods sake... who else can mass marines aganist banelings and win? Pretty sure he could figure out the other units too... | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:27 Lennon wrote: It's not all-in. It's the strongest opening P has right now. You can simply expand if it fails since you'll do so much damage anyway. so much damage? i don't remb who was playing exactly, but a recent gsl game on shakuras plateu, this exact scenario occured. the terran put up FOUR bunkers. and he repaired them with scvs, wtf can protoss do? if you have enough sentrys to ff all round em, you wont have enough dps to kill the bunkers before the marines RIP through your guys. if anything, he can retreat his orbital and scvs, while your still on one base (with cut probes mind you), tryin to play the catch up game. | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
On January 20 2011 19:16 Ashok wrote: 1) Alot of progamers play terran 2) Terran has its strength in the early game, so they will have a higher win rate during the early parts of SC2 as Protoss/Zerg players refine their expansion timings I tend to discount #1 above simply because it's difficult to determine whether or not this is a cause or an effect of Terran's strength. I read a recent interview with MarineKingPrime where he was answering the question "what made you pick Terran?" He responded that he had heard Terran was strong, so he picked it. I doubt this is an isolated incident among progamers. How do we know that Terran's apparent strength isn't the reason it's popular? As for the second point, I think this bleeds into becoming a balance issue somewhat. If an early rush is far easier to execute than it is to defend it, which is in clear violation of Blizzard design philosophy regarding rushes and cheese (this was my understanding behind the depot-before-barracks nerf), then should we consider it overpowered? There's no give-and-take here, because Terrans aren't necessarily put behind by failed 1-base pressure. I'll throw out a common example: 2-rax pressure. The Terran can put out game-ending pressure on a FE Zerg, so the Zerg needs to respond appropriately (more 'lings than usual, a spine, early gas & speed, etc.) or risk auto-loss. However, the Terran can simply scout, see that the Zerg is appropriately responded to the rush, and simply pull back and FE himself to no detriment or cost. He could even bunker the Zerg in, FE behind it, and salvage the bunkers for little more than opportunity cost of having 2 SCVs temporarily not mining (but scouting and gaining information, to an extent, so it's hard to call it a complete loss). Another great example is the SCV all-in cheese that knocked out players it really shouldn't have last GSL. Propped up by the power of MULEs, Terrans could organize rushes that were insanely hard to stop but didn't really put the Terran that behind if their opponent was forced to pull drones to beat it. This unpredictability of Terran in the early game really screws over Zerg (slightly) more than Protoss, imo, since Zerg really depends on accurate scouting information for maximizing economy (and needs to FE relatively quickly every game unless going all-in/cheese). Zerg is often forced to respond to major aggression that, in some cases, never comes -- putting them far behind. If they under-prepare and the aggression DOES hit, that's gg. I like the fact that the marine is much stronger than its BW counterpart, but I can't help thinking sometimes that early infantry aggression is a little overtuned. EDIT: One more point. "Terran has its strength in the early game" makes no sense to me, because Terran is strong at ALL stages of the game. Terran might seem weaker in relation to Zerg and Protoss in mid-game and late-game because they're more competitive in those tech-tiers than in T1. I think it might be more accurate to say that "Zerg (and to a lesser extent Protoss) are weaker in the early game)." | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
Zerg requires! 2 base to be able to do anything past the early game. This makes them so vulnerable to anything that can deny that 2nd base, and close position maps only make the problem worse. Protoss, on the other hand, have shitty units except for the Sentry, Colossus, and Templar. This makes their matchup incredibly volatile, because it depends entirely on the player to make those Sentry, Colossus, and Templar work. A small micro error or bad luck will simply lose a Protoss their game, because they are so dependent on those 3 units. Basically, you have to babysit your Protoss army, or you could have your magic units emp'd or your colossi caught out of position or miss a force field. | ||
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Sentient
United States437 Posts
1. Terran are the most forgiving to mistakes. With MULES, salvageable bunkers, and planetary fortresses, it's a lot easier to recover from a mistake. 2. Terran are the least forgiving to mistakes for the other races. If you slip up against a thor drop, banshee harass, blue flame hellion, or any other number of things, it's almost instantly GG. Terran have a softer difficulty curve, and by nature of their units, they also increase the difficulty curve of the races they play against. The best example off the top of my head is Jinro v MKP, in which Jinro clearly played MKP, but a minor slipup cost him the game. Given perfect play I suspect the game is almost perfectly balanced, but humans aren't perfect, so it is much easier to abuse Terran than the other races. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:32 KevinIX wrote: Protoss, on the other hand, have shitty units except for the Sentry, Colossus, and Templar. This makes their matchup incredibly volatile, because it depends entirely on the player to make those Sentry, Colossus, and Templar work. A small micro error or bad luck will simply lose a Protoss their game, because they are so dependent on those 3 units. couldn't have said it better myself. protoss isn't an rts race, its a hero with three abilities (ff, thermal lance, and storm). If you lose your hero, its gg. | ||
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imbs
United Kingdom320 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:29 Neo.NEt wrote: GSL MKP spoilers below: + Show Spoiler + MKP is such a beast I can't believe people on here hate on him. Yeah he all-ined that one game against Nada, but the other two games MKP had ABSOLUTELY no business winning yet he thought quick on his feet and out microed the hell out of NADA. It wasn't sanZenith he was playing.. it was Nada... and Nada looked like he had no idea what to do while MKP looked like a natural. Yeah, he gets a lot of marines, but I'm 99% certain that he could adapt in getting a ton of marines stopped working. For gods sake... who else can mass marines aganist banelings and win? Pretty sure he could figure out the other units too... theres no doubt that mkp is hugely talented, and most people wouldnt have a hope of emulating him - but thats true of all top gsl players including idra, fruitdealer ogsmc etc. but he *would* have no chance winning with similar strategies as zerg or protoss, and most other terran units for that matter. marines arent beaten for cost by anything in the game that doesnt splash the crap out of them. marines literally dont have a weakness aside for splash, and even then it needs to be burst splash. who else remembers the ultras vs marines in one of mkps games? it was pretty hilarious tbh. | ||
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hoor3x
United States100 Posts
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Oxb
199 Posts
I'd especially like the 'if BitbyBit can get to Ro16 there's something wrong with your race', what kind of statement is that ('If Pro A (who isn't all that pro) can get a lucky good roll in a tourney what ever he plays is flawed) and 'The pro terrans don't do anything special' I must say I haven't seen any zerg or protos pull of anything out of the ordinary either, so they're all bad players too? I think maps play a big part, SP is only Terran so the game is kinda terran focussed and introduces you to all it mechanics while everyone just has to figure out P and Z. Well it doesn't matter anyway, Terran all the way! | ||
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