EPTI highly doubt theres any race imbalance though.
Why so much Terran success in GSL? - Page 11
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KinosJourney2
Sweden1811 Posts
I highly doubt theres any race imbalance though. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On January 21 2011 01:19 WniO wrote: because terran has more options at every stage of the game. its that simple. Yeah, pretty much this. I think it's obvious that the terran focused single player effected the multiplayer, terran has the most units and the most "cool" shit they can do. I don't expect to have a really balanced game until legacy of the void has been released and patched. | ||
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fiskrens
Sweden196 Posts
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Creem
Sweden254 Posts
On January 21 2011 00:59 Avril_Lavigne wrote: "Terran has more options that their opponents need to prepare for and worry about." this statement is so overrated. Terran has a lot of openings, however they can only do one opening at a time. Scout the opening and this suggestion of a Terran advantage is negated. You forgot that terran is also the race that is by far the hardest to scout. Combine that with having the most variety of openers and you'll get his point. Edit: Due to the way tech labs and reactors work it's also much easier (as in cheaper and faster) to techswitch as a terran. | ||
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tapk69
Portugal264 Posts
Do you know why you americans have a war each 10 years? BECAUSE OF THE MARINES MAN.. THEYRE OP... not george w. bush , no nukes , the marines man... Do you see the other countries complain ? No : they join your forces. Yes : lets suicide in them ( zerg people always blowing stuff ) You should do a poll like Does a Terran have any chance against a 200/200 of the other races? Thats why terran dont like macro games , because it seems to be much weaker if they dont aplly pressure early and mid-game .. I also think Marauders should shoot air too , and thors should have stim because a marine is inside , so he can drug himself to.. I changed my race to Zerg last month and i love zerg , its much more fun than terran, and against my skill level players im getting quite the same results... Actually TvP for me was hard to win with consistency and ZvP is pretty winnable.. Whats causes Zerg the so big problems against terran is the Tank+Turret strategie but i think someone will find an answer to that! | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On January 20 2011 20:24 CryMeAReaper wrote: this thread is incredibly stupid. it will only draw balance whiners, as seen, and u shouldve thought of that >.< i might aswell give my 2 cents when im in here. i think its maps+ alot of terrans wins (most el oh el) are early/mid game wins, because of their easily massed and cost efficient bio. maybe z/p need to refine their expansion timings more, and figure out Ts timings to handle it, or nerf terran early/buff late, as our "cost efficient" units (aka only shit that works consistently) melts late game normally. I am so incredibly sorry for quoting an old post, but I just had to say this as a zerg At least you have shit that works consistently | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
it's hilarious how uninformed some posts in this thread are. it's funnier than i can even describe how people flame terran bunkers all the time, while ignoring the little fact that Zergs can move their static defence to the point they need to defend for the entire game. Seriously, every time i see someone complain about the ability to sell bunkers (never mind that the terran bunker is the only static defense which doesn't actually DO anything by itself) while they ignore the fact that the Zerg have an equal mechanic to move their own defense. The only race which can complain about those mechanics are protoss because for some reason only blizzard can explain they got left out and their cannons are static and non-refundable. Ps: The next protoss which tries to tell me that they can't stop a Terran FE will get a link to the Jinro vs. MC semifinals of GSL 3. It isn't that hard if you do it right (unless the Terran goes for the PF straight up, but who does that?) | ||
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MisterTea
United Kingdom1047 Posts
I thought that was obvious, ofcourse there's going to be zerg/protoss complaining about racial balance but at top level play this is not the case imo | ||
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MaxField
United States2386 Posts
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okrane
France265 Posts
This means, when facing Terran the Protoss and Zerg will always have an x% chance of a stupid loss and (100-x)% chance of a balanced match-up.These are factored by: 1) Maps. * Cliff Drops * Short Rush Distance * Large Ramps (for P) * Non Scouted All-Ins 2) Timings For Zergs: * Bunker Rushes * 2rax Marine For Protoss: * Missed ForceFields * Stim Timing Pushes * Banshees with cloak against non-robo * some Raven Timings. If not for these things the match-ups go pretty much well. The imbalance we're seing is simply the fact that playing Terran equals to auto-wins in some situations, which in high ranked play can occur quite often. If you want to verify my hypothesys just check all PvT and ZvTs in the GSL and count the number of retarded wins Terrans got and cross reference them with the number of retarded wins of P and Z vs T. You will see that Terran early game is completely safe from most crap all while having small opportunities for easy wins. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On January 21 2011 01:17 Noxie wrote: And for the most part it seems as though the same Terrans are doing well. Not random no names coming out of the wood work, taking down the top zergs an tosses. Until we see something of the sort, I think its too early too call balance. Terran still hasn't won a GSL keep that in mind. Umm... top Zerg and Protoss have always been getting eliminated by lesser Terrans since GSL 1... So the exact situation you've described is already happening, can we call imba now? | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
Further, the repair mechanic helps terran hold things better all though MC and a few other protoss players have shown that this might change in TVP and I suspect the recent SCV fix can help out as well. I also feel that Terran has the most players so to me it's a combination between terran popularity and bad maps but then again Protoss players has been playing so-so overall and zerg has won twice | ||
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
On January 20 2011 19:28 Talack wrote: Where is the option where I say that I think the terran pros are just that much better than the zerg/toss pros in terms of micro/macro/decision making/strategic analysis. In your god damn fantasies, seriously that was an incredibly stupid thing to say. | ||
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Clonze
Canada281 Posts
If you guys really think terran is overpowered then look at the winners for the past GSLs, the game isn't completely balanced but i'd say it's pretty close. Map imbalances for terran could be the answer but if we look back to sc1 days, they would always give the race winning the least the map advantage which is fair play imo. | ||
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Chise
Japan507 Posts
On January 21 2011 01:23 fiskrens wrote: A good way to look at this is by showing map statistics with winning % of every matchup at each map. I wouldn't be surprised if TvZ at least had the lowest win % on the largest maps such as shakuras/metal. Someone did this for GSL. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185891 Indeed, Shakuras is the lowest winning % in TvZ, but the funny thing is: It's also the closest to 50%. Even Scrap Station, the map that is soooooo Zerg favored and Terrans obviously can never win on it because it's soooooo imbalanced, has more wins for Terran. I think the reason why Terran is doing so well is not only one of the reasons listed in the OPs poll, but several. Yes, there are more Terran player, which results in more Terrans getting far in Tournaments. Yes, the maps are imbalanced, resulting in Terran winning more. Yes, Terran is imbalanced, at least I think so. Terran is the only race that has a real defenders advantage. As a Zerg, I can't just say: "Ok, I'm going to attack Terran" because if I do, he will only lose 1 Supply for about every 10 Supply I lose. It works the other way round though, Terran can decide to attack me whenever he wants to. Also, Terran has way more possibilties of what he can do than Protoss or Zerg. I think it's not a particular unit of Terran or anything like that that is imbalanced, but the concept of the race in general, due to way more possibilities than the other races. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
On January 21 2011 01:35 Demarini wrote: In your god damn fantasies, seriously that was an incredibly stupid thing to say. and a lot of us are that stupid to believe in that (me included), tho I think the best player is still mc but in top 10 best players it´s 2 z 1 p and 7 terran ... | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On January 21 2011 01:25 Tula wrote: it's hilarious how a 2 second long preparation prevents double bunker walls. What would this be? The only thing I know of is to patrol drones at the ramp, so then all terran has to do is NOT build bunkers and zerg is behind on mining time. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On January 21 2011 01:38 Clonze wrote: I don't think you put enough work into this, everyone is calling their vote without proper statistics. You need to find a way to incorporate the # of each race from the start of each of the GSLs and maybe go further than just ro8. If you guys really think terran is overpowered then look at the winners for the past GSLs, the game isn't completely balanced but i'd say it's pretty close. Map imbalances for terran could be the answer but if we look back to sc1 days, they would always give the race winning the least the map advantage which is fair play imo. Winner of GSL is just one set of games out of many, it doesn't mean much for balance really. Terran is winning more games overall, as we have seen terran in every GSL finals. Honestly both zerg wins in the finals were against terrans who shouldn't have even been there. | ||
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imbs
United Kingdom320 Posts
On January 21 2011 01:40 noD wrote: and a lot of us are that stupid to believe in that (me included), tho I think the best player is still mc but in top 10 best players it´s 2 z 1 p and 7 terran ... what a joke. do u realise that tsl rain made it to a gsl final? therainbow too. a guy who makes only marines... made it to a final. pretty sad rly | ||
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
On January 21 2011 00:59 Avril_Lavigne wrote: "Terran has more options that their opponents need to prepare for and worry about." this statement is so overrated. Terran has a lot of openings, however they can only do one opening at a time. Scout the opening and this suggestion of a Terran advantage is negated. See, now is is where people make no sense. How do you scout a terran after he gets a wall-off with any race other than T? Zergs can try to sac overlords, but that is no guarantee, and at worst you just lost a larvae, 100 minerals, and 10(or w/e it is don't play zerg) supply just to see that, yes, he does indeed have 2 marines. Protoss is completely helpless until robo or hallucinate comes into play, none of which are really an critical part to any P build. So explain again how to find out which one of 8 one-base all-ins the T is doing. That being said T being "op" is essentially because of 3 things, which I will place in order or magnitude(imo). 1. Maps. When half the available maps are completely build for T, then yes, T is op. Steppes is a ridiculous example. A simple tank push below the FE is almost completely unstoppable when played correctly. Delta quadrant provides Ts a free expo, which is all they really need to win vs any kind of play, while enabling them to not only abuse their easy drop mechanics on that said expo, but also keeps macro players from getting past 2 bases without having a sizeable unit lead + map control. 2. Marines. When your base tier 1 unit is viable all the way to end of the game as your primary dps dealer............then yeah, something needs to be changed. They are just too strong, and easily abused when compared to their tier 1 equivalents from the other two races. Sure they have their devastating counters, but losing 20 marines is nothing to the T. While those same 20 marines can devastate a base in half a minute flat. 3. Their ability to come back. Due to their turtling mechanics and units, nothing a T ever does is all in. If a Toss does a DT rush and fails miserably, its GG, the Toss will not recover vs anyone remotely close in skill. Whereas things like cloak banshee rushes are completely viable Terran openings that while still having the same game-ending capabilities as DTs, have basically no effect on a Terran's survivability into mid-game. In short, a T can literally survive ANYTHING. I saw a Z v T on Jungle Basin the other day where at one point in the game, the T had double the Zs units lost(by resources, 19,000 to 10,000), half as many bases, 10 scvs to the Zs 60, multiple times in the game the T lost CCs, entire mining expos, 3 or 4 production buildings, etc, 0-1 upgrades to the zerg's 2-2, and lost multiple groups of high cost units(tanks and thors) for almost no damage in return multiple points in the game due to horrific rally points. Basically the Z completely farked up the T all game, barely holding on with tank/missle turrent forts at a few key points in the game. Then the Z makes one mistake late in the game, losing most of his mutas and lings to the Ts last ditch marine/tank army due to bad attack timing, and the T immediately pushed into the zerg's main, and held off the reinforcements while stimming and taking down all the zerg's tech buildings. Re-rallied marines off his 6 reactored rax, fueled by the 8 MULEs worth of energy he had saved up because his macro was horrific, and won the game. Most pathtic display of a race I've ever seen, tbh, I was horrified. | ||
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