On January 20 2011 19:28 Talack wrote: Where is the option where I say that I think the terran pros are just that much better than the zerg/toss pros in terms of micro/macro/decision making/strategic analysis.
In your god damn fantasies, seriously that was an incredibly stupid thing to say.
and a lot of us are that stupid to believe in that (me included), tho I think the best player is still mc but in top 10 best players it´s 2 z 1 p and 7 terran ...
what a joke. do u realise that tsl rain made it to a gsl final? therainbow too. a guy who makes only marines... made it to a final. pretty sad rly
I actually think rainbow and the guy that makes only marines (aka MarineKingPrime) better than any other P or Z other than mc nestea and fd I should be crazy or joking ....
This is stupid. Most pro terrans choose terran because of being inspired by famous terrans of the past (NaDa, BoxeR). The terrans who make it this far are damn damn good good damn good damn. Jinro, MVP, MarineKing. All have their only style and all are very insanely good. This is best evidenced by their extremely technical TvT games. Mirror matchups are often the best measure of skill IMO.
How is this thread still alive? I dont get it.. Btw, how is this even possible after recent patch? I really think that especially Protoss players whining here should really think a bit before posting random stuff like "stim is op", etc..
On January 20 2011 19:28 Talack wrote: Where is the option where I say that I think the terran pros are just that much better than the zerg/toss pros in terms of micro/macro/decision making/strategic analysis.
In your god damn fantasies, seriously that was an incredibly stupid thing to say.
and a lot of us are that stupid to believe in that (me included), tho I think the best player is still mc but in top 10 best players it´s 2 z 1 p and 7 terran ...
what a joke. do u realise that tsl rain made it to a gsl final? therainbow too. a guy who makes only marines... made it to a final. pretty sad rly
I actually think rainbow and the guy that makes only marines (aka MarineKingPrime) better than any other P or Z other than mc nestea and fd I should be crazy or joking ....
marineking prime is good, but rainbow isnt even as good as ppl like whitera, morrow. he wouldnt do anything if he wasnt terran. morrow actually switched because terran was too easy m8. problem with marineking is that he makes 1 unit and wins. you realise how absurd that makes terran? no other race could do anything close to wat he does even if they had 5 times the skill.
I think its more to the lopsidedness of units.Let me explain this.
Banshee: you either kill 10-20 workers or die fast and get set behind because of the tech
Thor:you either stomp the force or lose all your army including a handful of scv's setting you way behind
Marauder: you either pwn the ground forces or they run into some sort of air or counter that insta pwns you
hellion: roast 30 probes or die in a blaze of glory.
This even goes for much of the spells
Raven seeker missile: hits you and you take heavy damage or misses and the raven is a waste of gas
Thor strike cannon: takes so long to actually fire that if thor dies before its goes off you just gave them a thor on the other hand it can completely shut down its natural counter with the stun aspect (immortals)
Terrans units seem so "all in" in nature. They are weird units with really awkward mechanics. Engaging an enemy gives you a result of being completely smashed by the enemy or smashing the enemys face into the ground.
On January 20 2011 19:28 Talack wrote: Where is the option where I say that I think the terran pros are just that much better than the zerg/toss pros in terms of micro/macro/decision making/strategic analysis.
In your god damn fantasies, seriously that was an incredibly stupid thing to say.
and a lot of us are that stupid to believe in that (me included), tho I think the best player is still mc but in top 10 best players it´s 2 z 1 p and 7 terran ...
what a joke. do u realise that tsl rain made it to a gsl final? therainbow too. a guy who makes only marines... made it to a final. pretty sad rly
I actually think rainbow and the guy that makes only marines (aka MarineKingPrime) better than any other P or Z other than mc nestea and fd I should be crazy or joking ....
marineking prime is good, but rainbow isnt even as good as ppl like whitera, morrow. he wouldnt do anything if he wasnt terran. morrow actually switched because terran was too easy m8. problem with marineking is that he makes 1 unit and wins. you realise how absurd that makes terran? no other race could do anything close to wat he does even if they had 5 times the skill.
sure ... If u truly belive so, your choice. I dont see any difference to Blink stalker strats. Actually I´m just tired, so ok Rainbow isnt a stable player he is just a joke and you are right ...
On January 20 2011 19:28 Talack wrote: Where is the option where I say that I think the terran pros are just that much better than the zerg/toss pros in terms of micro/macro/decision making/strategic analysis.
In your god damn fantasies, seriously that was an incredibly stupid thing to say.
and a lot of us are that stupid to believe in that (me included), tho I think the best player is still mc but in top 10 best players it´s 2 z 1 p and 7 terran ...
what a joke. do u realise that tsl rain made it to a gsl final? therainbow too. a guy who makes only marines... made it to a final. pretty sad rly
I actually think rainbow and the guy that makes only marines (aka MarineKingPrime) better than any other P or Z other than mc nestea and fd I should be crazy or joking ....
I agree on MKP, but Rainbow can't be compared to MVP, MKP and Jinro. Rainbow is good, but not nearly as good as the other 3 players mentioned.
On January 21 2011 01:48 rysecake wrote: Like I always say, you know something is wrong with a race when BitByBit makes it to the ro16 lol...
I laguhed...But there's some truth inside this.
On January 21 2011 01:49 OmegaSyrus wrote: This is stupid. Most pro terrans choose terran because of being inspired by famous terrans of the past (NaDa, BoxeR). The terrans who make it this far are damn damn good good damn good damn. Jinro, MVP, MarineKing. All have their only style and all are very insanely good. This is best evidenced by their extremely technical TvT games. Mirror matchups are often the best measure of skill IMO.
I agree with Jinro, MVP and MarineKing, they deserve to be in the RO4. But how do you explain Rain getting to the finals? BitByBit getting to the RO16?
On January 20 2011 19:33 PraetorianX wrote: The argument about player preference doesn't hold because protoss is the most played race, even in Masters league. Source:
Not an overwhelming number but GSL is a Korean tournament and there are more terrans in masters.
I'd say terran strategies are just more refined right now.
Well, the Korean masters is 37% Terran and 35% Protoss, to be specific.
So the argument "More players pick T, so more T succeed" is faulty. Which is why it's strange that it has 24% of the votes, at the time of writing this.
OK, I guess you're never going to read my posts. I think it's preferable to use the top 200, as that is more indicative of the GSL caliber players. For the top 200, 41% are terrans. Of the top 20, 50% are terran. Of course the ladder isn't the greatest measure of the top players, as most of them practice with their team more.
I think the most important reason that terrans are doing so well is that there are just so many more great terran players. Here's a list of some of the greatest Korean players by race:
Obviously you could say that the reason there are so many good terran players is because terran is op, but I think these players would be really good regardless of race, as they all have really solid macro and micro.
You left out for Zerg: Zenio, Check, July and for Protoss: Sangho, InCa. Any of them would have a decent shot against any Terran on that list, except maybe MVP.
Did you watch July vs Byun/Bleach? It was not pretty. SangHo also lost to Bleach.
On January 20 2011 19:33 PraetorianX wrote: The argument about player preference doesn't hold because protoss is the most played race, even in Masters league. Source:
Not an overwhelming number but GSL is a Korean tournament and there are more terrans in masters.
I'd say terran strategies are just more refined right now.
Well, the Korean masters is 37% Terran and 35% Protoss, to be specific.
So the argument "More players pick T, so more T succeed" is faulty. Which is why it's strange that it has 24% of the votes, at the time of writing this.
OK, I guess you're never going to read my posts. I think it's preferable to use the top 200, as that is more indicative of the GSL caliber players. For the top 200, 41% are terrans. Of the top 20, 50% are terran. Of course the ladder isn't the greatest measure of the top players, as most of them practice with their team more.
I think the most important reason that terrans are doing so well is that there are just so many more great terran players. Here's a list of some of the greatest Korean players by race:
Obviously you could say that the reason there are so many good terran players is because terran is op, but I think these players would be really good regardless of race, as they all have really solid macro and micro.
You left out for Zerg: Zenio, Check, July and for Protoss: Sangho, InCa. Any of them would have a decent shot against any Terran on that list, except maybe MVP.
Did you watch July vs Byun/Bleach? It was not pretty. SangHo also lost to Bleach.
And there we are again: Bleach was a Protoss player before. Then he switched to Terran and suddenly he's good. If I recall correctly, he even said in an interview that everyone should switch to Terran (or something like that).
On January 21 2011 00:45 Treemonkeys wrote: Terran has an advantage against protoss in early game due to stim.
Terran has more options that their opponents need to prepare for and worry about.
There are too many maps that favor terran.
"Terran has more options that their opponents need to prepare for and worry about."
this statement is so overrated. Terran has a lot of openings, however they can only do one opening at a time. Scout the opening and this suggestion of a Terran advantage is negated.
See, now is is where people make no sense. How do you scout a terran after he gets a wall-off with any race other than T?
Zergs can try to sac overlords, but that is no guarantee, and at worst you just lost a larvae, 100 minerals, and 10(or w/e it is don't play zerg) supply just to see that, yes, he does indeed have 2 marines. Protoss is completely helpless until robo or hallucinate comes into play, none of which are really an critical part to any P build. So explain again how to find out which one of 8 one-base all-ins the T is doing.
That being said T being "op" is essentially because of 3 things, which I will place in order or magnitude(imo).
1. Maps. When half the available maps are completely build for T, then yes, T is op. Steppes is a ridiculous example. A simple tank push below the FE is almost completely unstoppable when played correctly. Delta quadrant provides Ts a free expo, which is all they really need to win vs any kind of play, while enabling them to not only abuse their easy drop mechanics on that said expo, but also keeps macro players from getting past 2 bases without having a sizeable unit lead + map control.
2. Marines. When your base tier 1 unit is viable all the way to end of the game as your primary dps dealer............then yeah, something needs to be changed. They are just too strong, and easily abused when compared to their tier 1 equivalents from the other two races. Sure they have their devastating counters, but losing 20 marines is nothing to the T. While those same 20 marines can devastate a base in half a minute flat.
3. Their ability to come back. Due to their turtling mechanics and units, nothing a T ever does is all in. If a Toss does a DT rush and fails miserably, its GG, the Toss will not recover vs anyone remotely close in skill. Whereas things like cloak banshee rushes are completely viable Terran openings that while still having the same game-ending capabilities as DTs, have basically no effect on a Terran's survivability into mid-game. In short, a T can literally survive ANYTHING. I saw a Z v T on Jungle Basin the other day where at one point in the game, the T had double the Zs units lost(by resources, 19,000 to 10,000), half as many bases, 10 scvs to the Zs 60, multiple times in the game the T lost CCs, entire mining expos, 3 or 4 production buildings, etc, 0-1 upgrades to the zerg's 2-2, and lost multiple groups of high cost units(tanks and thors) for almost no damage in return multiple points in the game due to horrific rally points. Basically the Z completely farked up the T all game, barely holding on with tank/missle turrent forts at a few key points in the game. Then the Z makes one mistake late in the game, losing most of his mutas and lings to the Ts last ditch marine/tank army due to bad attack timing, and the T immediately pushed into the zerg's main, and held off the reinforcements while stimming and taking down all the zerg's tech buildings. Re-rallied marines off his 6 reactored rax, fueled by the 8 MULEs worth of energy he had saved up because his macro was horrific, and won the game. Most pathtic display of a race I've ever seen, tbh, I was horrified.
Okay? and how many truhjillion Terran openings are there? You say that zerg has to sac an overlord, etc, I'd say the 100 minerals is worth the trade for valuable information. Against toss, ever since MC's popular opening protoss's can abuse a wall of with a void ray how about that? And remember the time when blizzard buffed the observer? reducing it's cost? Where's the complaint on that? But you believe that protoss is forced to go robo just to scout terran, well why don't you try to put together a very solid build order uses robo. Many protosses these days are able to 1 gate fast expand even against 3 rax marines or perhaps all ins as well.
On January 21 2011 00:48 Jermstuddog wrote: I am a Zerg player, but my bias isn't even pro-Zerg, it's anti-Terran. In my time playing video-games I always tend to hate the OP class/character rather than crying about mine being UP, though I have this knack for always picking the weakest class/character out there... What can I say, we all have our talents.
Terran has some obviously favorable balance issues that go beyond simple flavor, most of these are related to their 2 base units, the Marine and the Marauder, mostly the Marine though.
Marauders are good, like unbelievably good. They're cheap, versatile, and ridiculously strong. Not to mention they have the completely unique ability to snare units with every attack at the minor cost of 50/50, this doesn't require energy or activating the ability, it just happens, every shot. The Marauder is hands, down the best early-game unit out there... that is... next to the Marine.
The Marine was ok in Brood War, I might even consider them slightly weaker than Zealots and Zerglings, but holy crap did that turn around in SC2. While Zerglings lost attack speed and Zealots lost health, Marines gained health, gained ranged, gained hp, gained attack speed, and get another hp upgrade on top of all that, oh yeah, stim isn't quite what it used to be, but their new attack speed + weaker stim is still > old stimmed marines. There isn't a single non-splash-damage unit in the game that can take an equal amount of marines straight-up. They are so good, they even counter a lot of the units you would THINK should trump them (Roaches, Banelings, Siege Tanks, Hellions all do surprisingly average against Marines).
All I can say is "What the hell was Blizzard thinking?" MarineKing seems to be the only pro who has caught on to this, making 80-90% of his army composition marines in all MUs, but if things don't change, I can see this idea spreading. This unit has gotten so ridiculously good, its laughable. No wonder Terran has the best all-ins, cheeses, and rushes. They have the god-slayer marine.
Still, I try to look at the whole picture. Marines aren't THAT bad, I think something like adding 0.1 to their attack speed would make them less god-like, but I'm not sure if that would break Terran as a whole. There are too many holes in the Terran army that are filled by the Marine as is, compensation might be required in other areas but its too hard to tell with the dominance of the marine right now. If I were Blizzard, it would be nerf the Marine and watch the results, fixes can be applied to other units later. The Marine is the reason Terran wins more than everybody else, and until Blizzard addresses that, things won't change.
Marines attacked at 3.2x ( in "Fastest" when stimmed ) ( Starcraft 1 ) ( frames/time )
15 frames / 24frames/sec to 7.5 frames / 24frames/sec (stimmed)
0.625 and 0.3125 -----> 0.86 and 0.56 ( Latter = SC2 values ) They had lower CD even without stim in SC1
Marines attack when stimmed in SC2 has 2.34x in "Faster" // 1.744 in "Normal"
They added +15 HP to compensate for the loss in attack speed ( nearly one attack is missing for every 1 second of time ( "Faster" = real time )
Animation cancelling is also added in to compensate
They always had the range... just it doesn't cost 100/100 anymore... Stim was 100% down to 50% in SC2
They used to use the fastest mode for their cooldowns, but now they use "Normal" for the default values
The lings got nerfed from 0.33 ( 8frames/24frames)and 0.25 ( Adrenaline Glands ) to 0.70 and 0.56
Zealots run slower on their upgraded speed without charge than they did before, but they get a speedboost to 5.75 after spell ( Would be 3.27ish if they kept the ratios... for upgrading charge ) would be like a complete upgrade if they it was 2.25 / 3.27 / 5.75 (charge)
On January 20 2011 19:16 Ashok wrote: 1) Alot of progamers play terran 2) Terran has its strength in the early game, so they will have a higher win rate during the early parts of SC2 as Protoss/Zerg players refine their expansion timings
1. Just as many pro's play Zerg and in fact the only reason other races keep winning the tittle is because these players are way better than their Terran counterparts.
2. Early game strength for Terran = all-in play style that never actually puts them behind, after that they have mass Marine and Tank's and there is no point harassing their mineral line because even with no SCV's, all it takes is 4 mules to keep up with a 3 base Zerg.
Final answer; Nerf the mule by giving it a cool down, no more SCV all-ins or late game shenanigans.
On January 20 2011 19:28 Talack wrote: Where is the option where I say that I think the terran pros are just that much better than the zerg/toss pros in terms of micro/macro/decision making/strategic analysis.
In your god damn fantasies, seriously that was an incredibly stupid thing to say.
and a lot of us are that stupid to believe in that (me included), tho I think the best player is still mc but in top 10 best players it´s 2 z 1 p and 7 terran ...
what a joke. do u realise that tsl rain made it to a gsl final? therainbow too. a guy who makes only marines... made it to a final. pretty sad rly
I actually think rainbow and the guy that makes only marines (aka MarineKingPrime) better than any other P or Z other than mc nestea and fd I should be crazy or joking ....
Wait, so massing one tier one unit all game and stim + running away = a good player? These guys do nothing special or out of the ordinary besides the occasional drop... Pretty pathetic that you believe these dominating Terrans are so epic.
"Oh crap! He is massing Orbital Commands and using all of his workers to fight!!!! SO GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!"
On January 20 2011 19:33 PraetorianX wrote: The argument about player preference doesn't hold because protoss is the most played race, even in Masters league. Source:
Not an overwhelming number but GSL is a Korean tournament and there are more terrans in masters.
I'd say terran strategies are just more refined right now.
Well, the Korean masters is 37% Terran and 35% Protoss, to be specific.
So the argument "More players pick T, so more T succeed" is faulty. Which is why it's strange that it has 24% of the votes, at the time of writing this.
OK, I guess you're never going to read my posts. I think it's preferable to use the top 200, as that is more indicative of the GSL caliber players. For the top 200, 41% are terrans. Of the top 20, 50% are terran. Of course the ladder isn't the greatest measure of the top players, as most of them practice with their team more.
I think the most important reason that terrans are doing so well is that there are just so many more great terran players. Here's a list of some of the greatest Korean players by race:
Obviously you could say that the reason there are so many good terran players is because terran is op, but I think these players would be really good regardless of race, as they all have really solid macro and micro.
You left out for Zerg: Zenio, Check, July and for Protoss: Sangho, InCa. Any of them would have a decent shot against any Terran on that list, except maybe MVP.
Did you watch July vs Byun/Bleach? It was not pretty. SangHo also lost to Bleach.
That's cuz we all know July isn't good at SC though. If he were good, he would have picked Terran... Scrub B-teamer IMO.
On January 21 2011 01:14 mesohawny wrote: Getting rid of bunker salvage, or changing the function so that it takes LONGER and requires a few SCV's to do it while putting a cooldown on MULE would go a long way in balancing Terran I think. Or leave those aspects the same but cut the healrate down on the medivac
Read the post above yours and stop throwing random shit in..
Hey man, relax... I take it you play terran? If your ego can't handle this then leave.
On January 20 2011 19:16 Ashok wrote: 1) Alot of progamers play terran 2) Terran has its strength in the early game, so they will have a higher win rate during the early parts of SC2 as Protoss/Zerg players refine their expansion timings
1. Just as many pro's play Zerg and in fact the only reason other races keep winning the tittle is because these players are way better than their Terran counterparts.
2. Early game strength for Terran = all-in play style that never actually puts them behind, after that they have mass Marine and Tank's and there is no point harassing their mineral line because even with no SCV's, all it takes is 4 mules to keep up with a 3 base Zerg.
Final answer; Nerf the mule by giving it a cool down, no more SCV all-ins or late game shenanigans.
On January 20 2011 19:28 Talack wrote: Where is the option where I say that I think the terran pros are just that much better than the zerg/toss pros in terms of micro/macro/decision making/strategic analysis.
In your god damn fantasies, seriously that was an incredibly stupid thing to say.
and a lot of us are that stupid to believe in that (me included), tho I think the best player is still mc but in top 10 best players it´s 2 z 1 p and 7 terran ...
what a joke. do u realise that tsl rain made it to a gsl final? therainbow too. a guy who makes only marines... made it to a final. pretty sad rly
I actually think rainbow and the guy that makes only marines (aka MarineKingPrime) better than any other P or Z other than mc nestea and fd I should be crazy or joking ....
Wait, so massing one tier one unit all game and stim + running away = a good player? These guys do nothing special or out of the ordinary besides the occasional drop... Pretty pathetic that you believe these dominating Terrans are so epic.
"Oh crap! He is massing Orbital Commands and using all of his workers to fight!!!! SO GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!"
..........................
SCVS = 4.5±0.50 workers during the entire duration So no... 4 mules = 16-20 workers of mining time... tested on "Normal" to reduce rounding
3 Bases full? ( 24x3 for the blue minerals and 6x3 for the gas? )
EPT
