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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
On January 05 2011 13:51 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 13:13 flamewheel wrote:On January 05 2011 10:07 kamizushi wrote:On January 05 2011 07:41 TaimalaiX wrote:On January 05 2011 04:24 MuffinDude wrote:On January 03 2011 02:09 oneofthem wrote:
that's not true at all. power rank should indeed weigh recent performance more, so volatility is still there because players fall in and out of form quite often.
flash is a special case because his strength is rather far away from everyone else. if he goes from .750 to .600, it may still be the highest rating. of course, if flash does indeed slump or decline hard enough, then he won't be having the highest expected wins.
suppose you are a betting man. do you bet according to this power rankings? i'd think not. I would. No point in betting on flash if hes not in the msl or osl. I'm quite certain he means if you were betting on the winners of a given series/game between the people on the PR, but cute trolling. Yes and from a korean point of view, a PL game is more important then a game from individual leagues which would place Jeadong and Flash before Kal. Winning a proleague game rewards one with how much money? Winning a starleague rewards one with how much money? This is characteristically simplistic. Winning a Starleague means winning how many games, and against increasingly good players? Winning those same games in Proleague, and thus being a dependable player for your team, could lead to a higher contracted salary, better privileges in the team's practice house, better perks from the sponsor, higher team morale and respect, and a boost personally to self-esteem from being a valuable contributor to the people that you practice and live with. Not taking the interviewees at face value as to their own ambition for personal glory in individual leagues is fine, but don't say that Proleague games are wholly insignificant to the players in comparison. HiyA may be doing swell in the individuals, but every interview is riddled with guilt for letting his team down at the same time. If a player says that they think Proleague is more important to them in an interview, I wouldn't hurriedly disregard it with a knowing smile. Maybe it is.
Of course it's very simple. That statement was made to parody the equally simple "winning a PL game is more important than winning in the individual leagues" statement.
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On January 05 2011 14:15 Xinliben wrote:Show nested quote +zerg have never had the same dominance. It's been pretty much Jaedong. Sometimes with Effort, once in a while Luxury There have been a few eras of zerg dominance. Someday zerg will find a new savior, besides the dong.
Hyuk hwaiting!!!!
I agree with everything on the ranking....except for Hogil! He has achieved results, but his performance was lacklustering and uninspiring. Shouldn't the power rank take both result and the actual in game performance of the player into account?
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On January 05 2011 14:58 flamewheel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 13:51 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On January 05 2011 13:13 flamewheel wrote:On January 05 2011 10:07 kamizushi wrote:On January 05 2011 07:41 TaimalaiX wrote:On January 05 2011 04:24 MuffinDude wrote:On January 03 2011 02:09 oneofthem wrote:
that's not true at all. power rank should indeed weigh recent performance more, so volatility is still there because players fall in and out of form quite often.
flash is a special case because his strength is rather far away from everyone else. if he goes from .750 to .600, it may still be the highest rating. of course, if flash does indeed slump or decline hard enough, then he won't be having the highest expected wins.
suppose you are a betting man. do you bet according to this power rankings? i'd think not. I would. No point in betting on flash if hes not in the msl or osl. I'm quite certain he means if you were betting on the winners of a given series/game between the people on the PR, but cute trolling. Yes and from a korean point of view, a PL game is more important then a game from individual leagues which would place Jeadong and Flash before Kal. Winning a proleague game rewards one with how much money? Winning a starleague rewards one with how much money? This is characteristically simplistic. Winning a Starleague means winning how many games, and against increasingly good players? Winning those same games in Proleague, and thus being a dependable player for your team, could lead to a higher contracted salary, better privileges in the team's practice house, better perks from the sponsor, higher team morale and respect, and a boost personally to self-esteem from being a valuable contributor to the people that you practice and live with. Not taking the interviewees at face value as to their own ambition for personal glory in individual leagues is fine, but don't say that Proleague games are wholly insignificant to the players in comparison. HiyA may be doing swell in the individuals, but every interview is riddled with guilt for letting his team down at the same time. If a player says that they think Proleague is more important to them in an interview, I wouldn't hurriedly disregard it with a knowing smile. Maybe it is. Of course it's very simple. That statement was made to parody the equally simple "winning a PL game is more important than winning in the individual leagues" statement.
Parodying to what end? I fail to see the point, I guess, as several players have said in interviews exactly that winning in Proleague is more important to them than in the individuals, which a few of the posters seem to be referencing. In my defense, your intended parody must have been obfuscated by context or poorly executed, as it seems I wasn't the only one too slow to pick up on it.
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the fuck.
Fun with some craziness I guess 
Go and get a gold King of Silver!
Oh and Nuke has to be pretty happy now 
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There are still people denying how terrible are terran players doing overall in last years? C'mon, wake up! Forget about Flash for a moment and look at the later stages of OSL, MSL, even WCG in recent years.
When we had a protoss season, we had 6 dragons (and all-four protoss MSL semifinal), when we had swarm season, we had double ZvZ finals in both OSL and MSL. Now we had only one terran performing well (actually *gasp* winning something, who would have though it was still possible?) and suddenly terrans are doing great? Wtf?
It also always surprises me when people are trying to lower Flash success by atributing it to imbalanced maps. It's the lowest you could get. I guess he has his special set of maps and all other terrans were playing on completely different ones, right?
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On January 05 2011 16:47 L0thar wrote:
There are still people denying how terrible are terran players doing overall in last years? C'mon, wake up! Forget about Flash for a moment and look at the later stages of OSL, MSL, even WCG in recent years.
When we had a protoss season, we had 6 dragons (and all-four protoss MSL semifinal), when we had swarm season, we had double ZvZ finals in both OSL and MSL. Now we had only one terran performing well (actually *gasp* winning something, who would have though it was still possible?) and suddenly terrans are doing great? Wtf?
It also always surprises me when people are trying to lower Flash success by atributing it to imbalanced maps. It's the lowest you could get. I guess he has his special set of maps and all other terrans were playing on completely different ones, right?
Are you ignoring the last MSL semi that featured 3 terrans and Jaedong?
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On January 05 2011 16:51 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 16:47 L0thar wrote:
There are still people denying how terrible are terran players doing overall in last years? C'mon, wake up! Forget about Flash for a moment and look at the later stages of OSL, MSL, even WCG in recent years.
When we had a protoss season, we had 6 dragons (and all-four protoss MSL semifinal), when we had swarm season, we had double ZvZ finals in both OSL and MSL. Now we had only one terran performing well (actually *gasp* winning something, who would have though it was still possible?) and suddenly terrans are doing great? Wtf?
It also always surprises me when people are trying to lower Flash success by atributing it to imbalanced maps. It's the lowest you could get. I guess he has his special set of maps and all other terrans were playing on completely different ones, right? Are you ignoring the last MSL semi that featured 3 terrans and Jaedong?
Yep, pretty much. Insignificant when compared to season after season of zerg/toss/Flash only semis.
But it was a welcome change and great games.
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Fall 2008 - Spring 2009 was a low point for Terran in individual leagues, although it was bookended by Terran victories (Arena MSL 2008 by ForGG, Ever 2009 OSL by Flash). Pick any other time period and I'm pretty sure Terran does well by any reasonable measure. (Yes, including # of semifinal appearances, # of Ro8 appearances, etc., unless you decide to discount Flash's results but include the rest of the Four Kings.)
That period also isn't as bleak as it looks. In nearly every starleague, a Terran player was a serious threat to win.
-Fantasy in Incruit OSL 2008, lost 2-3 to Stork in the finals;
-Fantasy again in Batoo OSL 2008, lost 2-3 to Jaedong in the finals;
-I'd argue Leta in Lost Saga MSL 2009; he was dominating hard at the time and I think his dishonest teammates gave Luxury his builds. (Luxury, and half the Hite A-team including his brother Yarnc, got in legal hot water for various dishonest activities around that time period.)
-Fantasy in Bacchus 2009 OSL, lost 1-3 to Jaedong in the semis;
-Iris in 2009 Avalon MSL, lost 2-3 to Kwanro in the semis after being up 2-0 with a commanding lead in the third set.
Reckoning by individual leagues also doesn't count Proleague, which I think tends to favor Terran. A number of Terran players have traditionally been proleague wonders (Sea, Light, Leta) who crash out of individuals early. (And Flash matched win counts with Jaedong/Bisu for the 2008-2009 Proleague despite the back-to-back Golden Age of Protoss and Swarm Season.)
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In the 6 finals Flash has been in recently these are the terran overall stats.
Flash
TvZ: 29-13 (69.05%)
TvP: 18-3 (85.71%)
All other terrans not Flash
TvZ: 82-86 (48.81%)
PvT: 61-56 (52.13%)
Terran without Flash have been doing awful lately. The last non Flash Terran to win an individual was ForGG in 2008. Before that it was Mind in 2007 and before that it was Nada in 2006. Toss has been doing badly too, they've got 3 Bisu wins and a Stork win, thats it. Since the Fall of Savior this really has been a zerg game.
As for the PR I think its well done. Even though he's probably still the person to beat, there was no way Flash could stay in T3. I think 5th or 6th is a good place for him, he's still strong but he dropped both individuals and you just cant do that and maintain high placement. Generally I'm arguing for PR to react slower but here it needed to react quickly.
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strongly disagree with Kal being on the third, did Kal win Jaedong? Is he really better Flash in bo3 for ex. one win over the gods is NOT ENOUGH, I think author really wanted to make a fresh change more than being objective. I still think that simply noone of these three players is able to beat Flash in bo3 nor Jae, well maybe Bisu, but I feel really confident about JD box matches. This is really funny how one win can change the things upside down. ANd hey! Why is that when Flash is out of MSL and OSL and JD is out of OSL, ppl start talking about toss gold these days, maybe because these two were the only ones to take it? I think its quite understandable to see who is really better, otherwise its just giving credit to lesser ones.
...still considering their current form, I must say Stork is doing great, and he deserves the top spot, but why Bisu, Bisu is good only against scrubs, maybe 4th spot, I dont think he has a chance in a box against top tier, and Kal)))? I still think this is rather a spontaneous top 10.
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On January 05 2011 21:39 revy wrote:
In the 6 finals Flash has been in recently these are the terran overall stats.
Flash
TvZ: 29-13 (69.05%)
TvP: 18-3 (85.71%)
All other terrans not Flash
TvZ: 82-86 (48.81%)
PvT: 61-56 (52.13%)
Care to find the overall stats for the other races? Because looking over the list of player stats, it doesn't look like the other races are much better, especially protoss, who haven't really had a star player, only 2 - 3 players that go further than they should. The high rank of Flash TvP can be explained by the fact that Stork, Bisu, and in a way Best and Jangbi(they're probably never coming back to dragon form, I think Best's time as a dragon was really done by Ever 09) were down. Impressive as the score is, who would you say is the most serious threat to him at an S-class level? Weaker terrans, on the other hand, would have trouble with free, Kal etc.
Also, the star player is expected to do a lot better than a slew of mediocre players of his race. Is this not true?
On January 05 2011 22:39 letian wrote:
...still considering their current form, I must say Stork is doing great, and he deserves the top spot, but why Bisu, Bisu is good only against scrubs, maybe 4th spot, I dont think he has a chance in a box against top tier, and Kal)))? I still think this is rather a spontaneous top 10.
...Bisu is only good against scrubs? After defeating Jaedong and 2-0ing the hardest group in MSL you say this? I'd say you have quite the bias against him. And you seem to hold JD as unbeatable in a series when he just lost 3 finals in a row.
Right now, I wouldn't favor JD against Flash, Bisu, or Light in a Bo5, maybe not even against Stork. He's in a sort of slump right now.
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On January 05 2011 21:39 revy wrote:
In the 6 finals Flash has been in recently these are the terran overall stats.
Flash
TvZ: 29-13 (69.05%)
TvP: 18-3 (85.71%)
All other terrans not Flash
TvZ: 82-86 (48.81%)
PvT: 61-56 (52.13%)
Terran without Flash have been doing awful lately. The last non Flash Terran to win an individual was ForGG in 2008. Before that it was Mind in 2007 and before that it was Nada in 2006. Toss has been doing badly too, they've got 3 Bisu wins and a Stork win, thats it. Since the Fall of Savior this really has been a zerg game.
As for the PR I think its well done. Even though he's probably still the person to beat, there was no way Flash could stay in T3. I think 5th or 6th is a good place for him, he's still strong but he dropped both individuals and you just cant do that and maintain high placement. Generally I'm arguing for PR to react slower but here it needed to react quickly.
This argument is incredibly simplistic. Where do these stats come from, individual league? If a race is winning roughly 50% in individual league AFTER subtracting out the #1 player, then I think that's pretty damn good. Terran has had several top players in Fantasy (#3 player of 2010), Light, and Sea (admittedly he is unlikely to win a Starleague...) as well as some strong player from other Terrans in certain parts of the year like Hiya, ForGG, Baby, and Midas. And it's not like Terran has just had 1-2 guys at the top and everyone else sucking:
PDPod MSL (ongoing) 9/32 Terran, 5 of 8 seeds, ForGG retired before playing a match
Bacchus 2010 OSL (ongoing) 11/36 Terran, 5 of 16 seeds, Flash seeded to Ro16
Bigfile MSL 11/32 Terran, 4 of 8 seeds, 3 semifinalists
Korean Air S2 14/36, 5 of 16 seeds, Flash seeded to Ro16
Hana Daetoo MSL 10/32, 2 of 7 seeds (note: Hwasin would have had seed except... so 3/8 really)
Korean Air S1 14/36, 4 of 16 seeds, Flash seeded to Ro16
Nate MSL (Nov 09 to Jan 10) 8/32, 2 of 8 seeds
Ever 2009 OSL (Oct 09 to Jan 10) 16/36, 6 of 16 seeds, Fantasy seeded to Ro16
So what does this tell us?
Terrans have earned 38 of 128 (~30%) of possible MSL spots, with 14 of 32 (~44%) possible seeds earned (though Hwasin's not given due to being banned from ever playing again). Swarm season was in effect coming into Nate MSL with strong TvZ players Flash, Hwasin and Light making it to the Ro8 thereby earning seeds. Strong Terran results were seen in Hana Daetoo and Terran domination was seen in Bigfile. Terran performance has fallen off so far in PDPod MSL with fewer non-seeded players qualifying than seeded players. Map issues may or may not be to blame. Elimination of Flash, Fantasy, Light and Sea in Ro32 bodes poorly for a Terran champion. Ro16 match-ups make a Terran seed in next MSL unlikely.
Terrans have earned 55 of 144 (~38%) of possible OSL spots, with 20 of 64 (~31%) possible seeds. Seed here meaning seeded within Ro36 group. 4 of 16 possible seeds to Ro16 earned, 3 Flash and 1 Fantasy. Strong results in the Sparkyz dominated Bacchus 09 OSL helped fuel good placement for the Ever 09 OSL, however, results in the Ro36 were not good (ironically, many Terrans fell to Protoss, which helped lead a strong Zerg dominated season), leading to bad seeds for Korean Air, in which Terrans had respectable results in both seasons. And the current season, Fantasy, Hiya and Mind have all made Ro8 of OSL with Fantasy and Mind up 1-0 against their opponents.
Worth noting is that Flash himself eliminated a number of Terran competitors (some of whom were/are strong players) in various leagues. ForGG and Fantasy in Bigfile. Leta in WCG. Hwasin and MVP in Hana Daetoo. Baby in KA S1. Other than MVP, all of those players had a decent shot at advancing against other competitors at that level.
Conclusion?
It's true that Zerg had the best results of 2010, but it did not come at the expense of Terran. Without a doubt, Terrans earned more than an equal share. The only race that earned less than its share was Protoss. Ironically, Protoss had the most direct Ro16 OSL seeds earned. Go figure.
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On January 05 2011 23:07 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 21:39 revy wrote:
In the 6 finals Flash has been in recently these are the terran overall stats.
Flash
TvZ: 29-13 (69.05%)
TvP: 18-3 (85.71%)
All other terrans not Flash
TvZ: 82-86 (48.81%)
PvT: 61-56 (52.13%) Care to find the overall stats for the other races? Because looking over the list of player stats, it doesn't look like the other races are much better, especially protoss, who haven't really had a star player, only 2 - 3 players that go further than they should. The high rank of Flash TvP can be explained by the fact that Stork, Bisu, and in a way Best and Jangbi(they're probably never coming back to dragon form, I think Best's time as a dragon was really done by Ever 09) were down. Impressive as the score is, who would you say is the most serious threat to him at an S-class level? Weaker terrans, on the other hand, would have trouble with free, Kal etc. Also, the star player is expected to do a lot better than a slew of mediocre players of his race. Is this not true? Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 22:39 letian wrote:
...still considering their current form, I must say Stork is doing great, and he deserves the top spot, but why Bisu, Bisu is good only against scrubs, maybe 4th spot, I dont think he has a chance in a box against top tier, and Kal)))? I still think this is rather a spontaneous top 10. ...Bisu is only good against scrubs? After defeating Jaedong and 2-0ing the hardest group in MSL you say this? I'd say you have quite the bias against him. And you seem to hold JD as unbeatable in a series when he just lost 3 finals in a row. Right now, I wouldn't favor JD against Flash, Bisu, or Light in a Bo5, maybe not even against Stork. He's in a sort of slump right now.
well we shall see, on the other hand, when was the last time when Bisu and his toss buddies did win just ANYthing? Current JD form is ok, its not that good of course, but I'm sure he is capable of killing just anyone in a box, save Flash. You say 2-0, well let me tell you that when he does win any of the OSL or MSL I will believe his 2-nd spot, just now we must call this table not "Power rank" but "Performance rank", even in this case, I still do not understand why Flash is 5th, he's PL results are very good, his overconfidence played a wicked trick on him, but do you believe that his current form is somehow worse than it was just because of several losses, thats not "Power" we are talking here.
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On January 06 2011 00:55 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 23:07 Lightwip wrote:On January 05 2011 21:39 revy wrote:
In the 6 finals Flash has been in recently these are the terran overall stats.
Flash
TvZ: 29-13 (69.05%)
TvP: 18-3 (85.71%)
All other terrans not Flash
TvZ: 82-86 (48.81%)
PvT: 61-56 (52.13%) Care to find the overall stats for the other races? Because looking over the list of player stats, it doesn't look like the other races are much better, especially protoss, who haven't really had a star player, only 2 - 3 players that go further than they should. The high rank of Flash TvP can be explained by the fact that Stork, Bisu, and in a way Best and Jangbi(they're probably never coming back to dragon form, I think Best's time as a dragon was really done by Ever 09) were down. Impressive as the score is, who would you say is the most serious threat to him at an S-class level? Weaker terrans, on the other hand, would have trouble with free, Kal etc. Also, the star player is expected to do a lot better than a slew of mediocre players of his race. Is this not true? On January 05 2011 22:39 letian wrote:
...still considering their current form, I must say Stork is doing great, and he deserves the top spot, but why Bisu, Bisu is good only against scrubs, maybe 4th spot, I dont think he has a chance in a box against top tier, and Kal)))? I still think this is rather a spontaneous top 10. ...Bisu is only good against scrubs? After defeating Jaedong and 2-0ing the hardest group in MSL you say this? I'd say you have quite the bias against him. And you seem to hold JD as unbeatable in a series when he just lost 3 finals in a row. Right now, I wouldn't favor JD against Flash, Bisu, or Light in a Bo5, maybe not even against Stork. He's in a sort of slump right now. well we shall see, on the other hand, when was the last time when Bisu and his toss buddies did win just ANYthing? Current JD form is ok, its not that good of course, but I'm sure he is capable of killing just anyone in a box, save Flash. You say 2-0, well let me tell you that when he does win any of the OSL or MSL I will believe his 2-nd spot, just now we must call this table not "Power rank" but "Performance rank", even in this case, I still do not understand why Flash is 5th, he's PL results are very good, his overconfidence played a wicked trick on him, but do you believe that his current form is somehow worse than it was just because of several losses, thats not "Power" we are talking here.
Hypothetical Bo5 results sure are nice aren't they? In a hypothetical Starleague, I'm sure Flash would win.
I'm also sure that will be nice to dream about while Flash is busy not winning either real Starleague this season.
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konadora
Singapore66064 Posts
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On January 05 2011 19:08 Severedevil wrote:
Fall 2008 - Spring 2009 was a low point for Terran in individual leagues, although it was bookended by Terran victories (Arena MSL 2008 by ForGG, Ever 2009 OSL by Flash). Pick any other time period and I'm pretty sure Terran does well by any reasonable measure. (Yes, including # of semifinal appearances, # of Ro8 appearances, etc., unless you decide to discount Flash's results but include the rest of the Four Kings.)
That period also isn't as bleak as it looks. In nearly every starleague, a Terran player was a serious threat to win.
-Fantasy in Incruit OSL 2008, lost 2-3 to Stork in the finals;
-Fantasy again in Batoo OSL 2008, lost 2-3 to Jaedong in the finals;
-I'd argue Leta in Lost Saga MSL 2009; he was dominating hard at the time and I think his dishonest teammates gave Luxury his builds. (Luxury, and half the Hite A-team including his brother Yarnc, got in legal hot water for various dishonest activities around that time period.)
-Fantasy in Bacchus 2009 OSL, lost 1-3 to Jaedong in the semis;
-Iris in 2009 Avalon MSL, lost 2-3 to Kwanro in the semis after being up 2-0 with a commanding lead in the third set.
Reckoning by individual leagues also doesn't count Proleague, which I think tends to favor Terran. A number of Terran players have traditionally been proleague wonders (Sea, Light, Leta) who crash out of individuals early. (And Flash matched win counts with Jaedong/Bisu for the 2008-2009 Proleague despite the back-to-back Golden Age of Protoss and Swarm Season.)
That's exactly what I did, because I tried to ilustrate the absurdity of statement "Flash success is due to terran imbalanced maps". If you include Flash, then of course terran are represented really well at even the highest level, no argument about that.
As for PL, yes again, terran players are doing great there even without Flash. But the success of a progamer is usually judged by individual leagues performace and that was abysmal. If the greatest achievement of nonFlash terran in past years is losing in finals, then it really speaks for itself...
Just look at it, if we take out Flash:
Last MSL winner: ForGG, 2008
Last WCG representative: Hwasin, 2007
Last OSL winner: Nada, 2006 (2006!!)
We got 2011 now and still counting.
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On January 06 2011 03:06 L0thar wrote:
Just look at it, if we take out Flash:
Last MSL winner: ForGG, 2008
Last WCG representative: Hwasin, 2007
Last OSL winner: Nada, 2006 (2006!!)
We got 2011 now and still counting.
Ya, and now imagine you take Jaedong out and count Zerg golds. What you have since the time of Saviour? Calm taking one gold.
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On January 06 2011 05:19 zlosynus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 03:06 L0thar wrote:
Just look at it, if we take out Flash:
Last MSL winner: ForGG, 2008
Last WCG representative: Hwasin, 2007
Last OSL winner: Nada, 2006 (2006!!)
We got 2011 now and still counting. Ya, and now imagine you take Jaedong out and count Zerg golds. What you have since the time of Saviour? Calm taking one gold.
Dont forget Effort's OSL win. Still not a diverse selection of zerg finalists.
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On January 06 2011 05:39 Tempest[OEC] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 05:19 zlosynus wrote:On January 06 2011 03:06 L0thar wrote:
Just look at it, if we take out Flash:
Last MSL winner: ForGG, 2008
Last WCG representative: Hwasin, 2007
Last OSL winner: Nada, 2006 (2006!!)
We got 2011 now and still counting. Ya, and now imagine you take Jaedong out and count Zerg golds. What you have since the time of Saviour? Calm taking one gold. Dont forget Effort's OSL win. Still not a diverse selection of zerg finalists.
There's also  Luxury who won the MSL over  JangBi.
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Zerg has clearly done well since Savior's time.
Aside from Jaedong, four Zergs have picked up one league each: Calm, Effort, JulyZerg, GGPlay. (Luxury won an MSL but I'm pretty sure it was taken away from him for dishonest practices that may or may not have contributed to his MSL win in the first place.)
I'm inclined to discount Calm's and JulyZerg's victories as lucky flukes, since Calm's only strong opponents were busy carrying their teams through Proleague Finals SuperAce Matches after Calm was already eliminated, and JulyZerg got to play almost exclusively ZvP against dubious PvZ'ers. Effort and GGPlay had legitimately hard runs.
Mind also won an MSL in that time for Terran (as did ForGG). Bisu and Stork are the only OSL/MSL winners for Protoss since Anytime in 2005.
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EPT
