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Power Rank 01/01/2011 - Page 11

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
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nK)Duke
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany936 Posts
January 03 2011 10:09 GMT
#201
PR loses all the credibility
c3rberUs
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Japan11286 Posts
January 03 2011 11:35 GMT
#202
I think the PR is as credible as with all the previous PRs, the thing is, is that there have been quite a few upsets (Flash 2-0'd in his best MU out of the msl, Flash and JD are both out of the osl) and basically there is a bit of chaos so its a bit hard to judge the 'real' strength of the top players right now. For JD and Flash, they got eliminated but not everyone agrees that they are slumping, and for the stork, kal(?) and bisu, since they are coming back to form, without Flash and JD, they have no one to 'good' enough to prove themselves against.

As a a BW fan this is a good PR despite the upheaval.

As a protoss fan though this is an extremely good PR, I mean we don't get this every now and then don't we? haha

cheers ...
WriterMovie, 진영화 : "StarCraft will never die".
4Servy
Profile Joined August 2008
Netherlands1542 Posts
January 03 2011 12:16 GMT
#203
great pr overall great to see stork at #1.
Taekwon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8155 Posts
January 03 2011 14:06 GMT
#204
Revolutionary power rank, hoping the next two months will still continue to prove Protoss dominance
▲ ▲ ▲
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
January 03 2011 14:42 GMT
#205
On January 03 2011 20:35 c3rberUs wrote:
for the stork, kal(?) and bisu, since they are coming back to form, without Flash and JD, they have no one to 'good' enough to prove themselves against.

I agree, this is whats so tricky here.


According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
January 03 2011 16:00 GMT
#206
On January 03 2011 12:42 StylishVODs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2011 12:25 Lightwip wrote:
If individual league performance was measured so heavily, Calm wouldn't be below Flash. It's not too heavily based on those. We can all agree that Bisu and Stork are the best right now, yes? The only other player on their level is Flash, but he was just handed 3 pretty embarrassing defeats at the hands of Classic, Ssak, and Hyuk, a HUGE dropoff in performance from last season.
Honestly, the only big point of debate for me is #3/4/5. Flash might belong above Jaedong(maybe not), and I don't really know where Kal belongs.

I think there's a difference between being the better player and performing better over a handful of games. After Flash's dominating year, are a few losses enough to say that someone else is better than him? Ofcourse not.

I know skill isn't doing him any good if he's out of the leagues, but as I said before: he's not on 100% winratio so he will ofcourse lose some games and this time it was the wrong games.
Like the example with Kal. Flash wins almost everytime. WWWW and then one loss and BAM Kal is the better player? It doesn't work that way, I can play 100 games vs my friend and I might lose 10 of them and if it was in a tourny I'd have worse results than him but im still better because i win 90% of the time we play.
And Flash doesn't have to prove he can win when it matters.

So imo, as I said before, this ranking shows more whos doing better right now, a short time limit, rather than who is best at bw right now. And I'm fine with that.

PS. Baubo, the skill gap isn't as big as some might believe. But if you're in every final for a year it's pretty big. We're talking about flash here.



What's your point? Flash was just as invincible back when he tore apart Stork in the GSL/OSL. If anyone had said Flash's TvP could lose to any protoss, people would think you're crazy. Yet for the next entire year, Flash did nothing but lose to the top protosses.

While you can make assumptions about yourself with theoretically playing 100 games against someone, that's useless in terms of judging pro-gamers. They only get to be on-stage a few times each month. It doesn't matter if you win 99% against someone in practice. If that 1% comes on TV with the next round of the SL on the line, you still lose 100% of games that matter.

Flash lost high stake games. And for that he'll have no chance to redeem himself for the rest of this MSL/OSL season. That's FAIL. And no amount of "if he could play Classic again 10 times he'd win 9 times" argument can change that.
Meh
Sabu113
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States11047 Posts
January 03 2011 16:23 GMT
#207
The KING has returned to his throne Hurrah. Heh. Might watch more BW just for the Stork involved :D.


Storrrrkuuuuuuu Fiiiiiighting! (suckit hairtoss)
Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video ...-Wombat_Ni
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
January 03 2011 18:50 GMT
#208
Haven't seen those particular players in the top 5 in a LONG time.

So nice to see them all back on top.
iw-darins888
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada32 Posts
January 03 2011 20:24 GMT
#209
GO PROTOSS GO. FLASH IS NEVER COMING BACK AFTER THIS SLUMP!!
Macro= large Micro=small
Crisium
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1618 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 20:36:35
January 03 2011 20:36 GMT
#210
On January 03 2011 12:16 oneofthem wrote:
in a purely accomplishment ranking like the tennis rankings, even if you are a former champion getting knocked out of a tourney, you won't really be overtaken until your significant rival wins something and actually gets the points, and you don't even lose the points you have until they expire by a set time limit.

there seems to be an immediate penalty for flash because he got knocked out of a round of tournaments, and this is rather hard to justify in a consistent way even if we take accomplishments points to be the only criteria.


As stated, that is the Kespa rank. The PR is not TL's version of the Kespa rankings. Kespa, ELO, and PR all measure different things. I know you haven't had time to respond to another poster who explained this in more detail, but I just feel the need to reiterate this.
Broodwar and Stork forever! List of BW players with most Ro16, Ro8: http://tinyurl.com/BWRo16-Ro8
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 02:50:26
January 04 2011 02:41 GMT
#211
On January 04 2011 01:00 baubo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2011 12:42 StylishVODs wrote:
On January 03 2011 12:25 Lightwip wrote:
If individual league performance was measured so heavily, Calm wouldn't be below Flash. It's not too heavily based on those. We can all agree that Bisu and Stork are the best right now, yes? The only other player on their level is Flash, but he was just handed 3 pretty embarrassing defeats at the hands of Classic, Ssak, and Hyuk, a HUGE dropoff in performance from last season.
Honestly, the only big point of debate for me is #3/4/5. Flash might belong above Jaedong(maybe not), and I don't really know where Kal belongs.

I think there's a difference between being the better player and performing better over a handful of games. After Flash's dominating year, are a few losses enough to say that someone else is better than him? Ofcourse not.

I know skill isn't doing him any good if he's out of the leagues, but as I said before: he's not on 100% winratio so he will ofcourse lose some games and this time it was the wrong games.
Like the example with Kal. Flash wins almost everytime. WWWW and then one loss and BAM Kal is the better player? It doesn't work that way, I can play 100 games vs my friend and I might lose 10 of them and if it was in a tourny I'd have worse results than him but im still better because i win 90% of the time we play.
And Flash doesn't have to prove he can win when it matters.

So imo, as I said before, this ranking shows more whos doing better right now, a short time limit, rather than who is best at bw right now. And I'm fine with that.

PS. Baubo, the skill gap isn't as big as some might believe. But if you're in every final for a year it's pretty big. We're talking about flash here.



What's your point? Flash was just as invincible back when he tore apart Stork in the GSL/OSL. If anyone had said Flash's TvP could lose to any protoss, people would think you're crazy. Yet for the next entire year, Flash did nothing but lose to the top protosses.

While you can make assumptions about yourself with theoretically playing 100 games against someone, that's useless in terms of judging pro-gamers. They only get to be on-stage a few times each month. It doesn't matter if you win 99% against someone in practice. If that 1% comes on TV with the next round of the SL on the line, you still lose 100% of games that matter.

Flash lost high stake games. And for that he'll have no chance to redeem himself for the rest of this MSL/OSL season. That's FAIL. And no amount of "if he could play Classic again 10 times he'd win 9 times" argument can change that.

you misunderstood my post.
im sayig that flash didnt lose because of the preassure but because he simply lost those games. thats why you cant speculate too freely yet about any diminish in skill simply because he lost a few games that mattered.
he always lost some game along the road since hes not on 100 percent win.
if he starts dropping games that will lower his percentage winratio over a few monhs you can start speculating... the samplesize now is too small.

stork and bisu did have a better month though so they definately deserve to be ahead on the PR but you cant say they are the best players right now until they've proven it or until flash shows that he's not the 70-80 percent monster anymore after such long time dominance...
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
January 04 2011 03:07 GMT
#212
On January 04 2011 11:41 StylishVODs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2011 01:00 baubo wrote:
On January 03 2011 12:42 StylishVODs wrote:
On January 03 2011 12:25 Lightwip wrote:
If individual league performance was measured so heavily, Calm wouldn't be below Flash. It's not too heavily based on those. We can all agree that Bisu and Stork are the best right now, yes? The only other player on their level is Flash, but he was just handed 3 pretty embarrassing defeats at the hands of Classic, Ssak, and Hyuk, a HUGE dropoff in performance from last season.
Honestly, the only big point of debate for me is #3/4/5. Flash might belong above Jaedong(maybe not), and I don't really know where Kal belongs.

I think there's a difference between being the better player and performing better over a handful of games. After Flash's dominating year, are a few losses enough to say that someone else is better than him? Ofcourse not.

I know skill isn't doing him any good if he's out of the leagues, but as I said before: he's not on 100% winratio so he will ofcourse lose some games and this time it was the wrong games.
Like the example with Kal. Flash wins almost everytime. WWWW and then one loss and BAM Kal is the better player? It doesn't work that way, I can play 100 games vs my friend and I might lose 10 of them and if it was in a tourny I'd have worse results than him but im still better because i win 90% of the time we play.
And Flash doesn't have to prove he can win when it matters.

So imo, as I said before, this ranking shows more whos doing better right now, a short time limit, rather than who is best at bw right now. And I'm fine with that.

PS. Baubo, the skill gap isn't as big as some might believe. But if you're in every final for a year it's pretty big. We're talking about flash here.



What's your point? Flash was just as invincible back when he tore apart Stork in the GSL/OSL. If anyone had said Flash's TvP could lose to any protoss, people would think you're crazy. Yet for the next entire year, Flash did nothing but lose to the top protosses.

While you can make assumptions about yourself with theoretically playing 100 games against someone, that's useless in terms of judging pro-gamers. They only get to be on-stage a few times each month. It doesn't matter if you win 99% against someone in practice. If that 1% comes on TV with the next round of the SL on the line, you still lose 100% of games that matter.

Flash lost high stake games. And for that he'll have no chance to redeem himself for the rest of this MSL/OSL season. That's FAIL. And no amount of "if he could play Classic again 10 times he'd win 9 times" argument can change that.

you misunderstood my post.
im sayig that flash didnt lose because of the preassure but because he simply lost those games. thats why you cant speculate too freely yet about any diminish in skill simply because he lost a few games that mattered.
he always lost some game along the road since hes not on 100 percent win.
if he starts dropping games that will lower his percentage winratio over a few monhs you can start speculating... the samplesize now is too small.

stork and bisu did have a better month though so they definately deserve to be ahead on the PR but you cant say they are the best players right now until they've proven it or until flash shows that he's not the 70-80 percent monster anymore after such long time dominance...


I think you two are talking past each other.

You are saying, "Flash is most likely still the strongest player in the world regardless of his results."

Baubo is saying, "A player, no matter how good, must continually reaffirm his current skill throughout his career."

Both statements are true. Power Rank has more to do with the latter than the former, which is why Flash cannot justifiably be #1 on PR.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Lightningbullet
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States507 Posts
January 04 2011 03:34 GMT
#213
glad to see flash and jaedong lowered due to their LOLfails
BoxeR is AWESOME!!!!//Proud 2nd Member of the BW>SC2 club.
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 04:02:51
January 04 2011 04:02 GMT
#214
On January 04 2011 11:41 StylishVODs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2011 01:00 baubo wrote:
On January 03 2011 12:42 StylishVODs wrote:
On January 03 2011 12:25 Lightwip wrote:
If individual league performance was measured so heavily, Calm wouldn't be below Flash. It's not too heavily based on those. We can all agree that Bisu and Stork are the best right now, yes? The only other player on their level is Flash, but he was just handed 3 pretty embarrassing defeats at the hands of Classic, Ssak, and Hyuk, a HUGE dropoff in performance from last season.
Honestly, the only big point of debate for me is #3/4/5. Flash might belong above Jaedong(maybe not), and I don't really know where Kal belongs.

I think there's a difference between being the better player and performing better over a handful of games. After Flash's dominating year, are a few losses enough to say that someone else is better than him? Ofcourse not.

I know skill isn't doing him any good if he's out of the leagues, but as I said before: he's not on 100% winratio so he will ofcourse lose some games and this time it was the wrong games.
Like the example with Kal. Flash wins almost everytime. WWWW and then one loss and BAM Kal is the better player? It doesn't work that way, I can play 100 games vs my friend and I might lose 10 of them and if it was in a tourny I'd have worse results than him but im still better because i win 90% of the time we play.
And Flash doesn't have to prove he can win when it matters.

So imo, as I said before, this ranking shows more whos doing better right now, a short time limit, rather than who is best at bw right now. And I'm fine with that.

PS. Baubo, the skill gap isn't as big as some might believe. But if you're in every final for a year it's pretty big. We're talking about flash here.



What's your point? Flash was just as invincible back when he tore apart Stork in the GSL/OSL. If anyone had said Flash's TvP could lose to any protoss, people would think you're crazy. Yet for the next entire year, Flash did nothing but lose to the top protosses.

While you can make assumptions about yourself with theoretically playing 100 games against someone, that's useless in terms of judging pro-gamers. They only get to be on-stage a few times each month. It doesn't matter if you win 99% against someone in practice. If that 1% comes on TV with the next round of the SL on the line, you still lose 100% of games that matter.

Flash lost high stake games. And for that he'll have no chance to redeem himself for the rest of this MSL/OSL season. That's FAIL. And no amount of "if he could play Classic again 10 times he'd win 9 times" argument can change that.

you misunderstood my post.
im sayig that flash didnt lose because of the preassure but because he simply lost those games. thats why you cant speculate too freely yet about any diminish in skill simply because he lost a few games that mattered.
he always lost some game along the road since hes not on 100 percent win.
if he starts dropping games that will lower his percentage winratio over a few monhs you can start speculating... the samplesize now is too small.

stork and bisu did have a better month though so they definately deserve to be ahead on the PR but you cant say they are the best players right now until they've proven it or until flash shows that he's not the 70-80 percent monster anymore after such long time dominance...


Now that I actually think about it, I think that rather than skill, changes in strategies and maps generally have more to do with player/race success. Flash's OSL losses look more to be opponents taking full advantage of map-abuse than him sucking. As for MSL, I'm not a fan nor an expert on TvT, so it could be just fluky, or that other terrans have figured out his TvT game sense. So I agree with you that Flash's skills haven't deteriorated. But rather circumstances help stack the odds against him. Then again, I'm not trying to make excuses for Flash, because I do believe that he was aided by new terran strategies and terran favored maps when he began to dominate last year.

So yeah, while one cannot speculate too freely about player skills, skills themselves must change and improve over time. I remember Stork once commented on why PvZ was in the gutter for a long time. He said something interesting. He said that it wasn't that protosses started sucking, but zergs have raised their skill level and strategies that old PvZ crap doesn't work anymore. In the end, you have to keep up with the times. I believe what Flash has to prove is that he can stay in the forefront, and not get left behind. So in that sense I do believe he has something to prove.

But I do agree with you on the facts. I just came to a different conclusion.
Meh
ReaperX
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Hong Kong1758 Posts
January 04 2011 05:37 GMT
#215
I liked Flash on the top spot
But anyhoo, I love dar protoss.
Artosis : Clide. idrA : Shut up.
nodule
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada931 Posts
January 04 2011 06:24 GMT
#216
Flash deserved to drop but it does feel like he just got unlucky that his few bad games were in the leagues whereas other's multiple losses were in SPL. It's really hard for me to feel that Kal and Jaedong are better than flash right now.
Titusmaster6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5937 Posts
January 04 2011 09:21 GMT
#217
Love it! Stork <3
Shorts down shorts up, BOOM, just like that.
SmoKim
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark10305 Posts
January 04 2011 09:26 GMT
#218
On January 03 2011 19:09 nK)Duke wrote:
PR loses all the credibility


you wouldn't happen to be a Gametrailers user ?
"LOL I have 202 supply right now (3 minutes later)..."LOL NOW I HAVE 220 SUPPLY SUP?!?!?" - Mondragon
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
January 04 2011 15:41 GMT
#219
On January 04 2011 13:02 baubo wrote:
I do believe that he was aided by new terran strategies and terran favored maps when he began to dominate last year.

I just want to point out that we didn't have that many other Terran finalists in 2010...
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
Tequestar
Profile Joined January 2011
1 Post
January 04 2011 16:29 GMT
#220
Out of curiosity, I checked Power Rank and Close But No Cigar booth players records in TLPD.
Their December 2010 results make quite interesting list after being sorted by winning percentage:

1. (Z)Hydra 12-2 (85.71%)
2. (T)Baby 5-1 (83.33%)
3. (P)Stork 13-3 (81.25%)
4. (P)Bisu 8-2 (80%)
5. (Z)Great 8-3 (72.73%)
6. (Z)Calm 10-4 (71.43%)
7. (Z)Jaedong 10-5 (66.67%)
8. (T)Mind 7-4 (63.64%)
--- (P)Snow 7-4 (63.64%)
10. (T)Bogus 5-3 (62.50%)
---- (Z)Modesty 5-3 (62.50%)
12. (Z)Shine 9-6 (60%)
---- (T)Leta 6-4 (60%)
14. (T)Flash 7-5 (58.33%)
15. (Z)Action 5-4 (55.56%)
16. (P)Kal 9-9 (50%)
---- (Z)Hogil 4-4 (50%)
---- (Z)Roro 4-4 (50%)

On a side note, someone is working on TLPD at the moment. Baby again is highlighted as SC2 player (it was BroodWar Terran for a while); Mind has second nickname added to his personal page. And you will never guess: it's 'Rommel'. Funny, but can anyone explain, where it came from?
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