On January 01 2011 14:39 ymir233 wrote: Although I lament for JD's fall, Birdnests (new name for Stork's carriers) can apparently carry up to 12 interceptors. I think Bisu will overtake Stork if Bisu's epic "make as little mistakes as possible" starsense comes into play. Never forgot that one (I think MSL?) game with Stork in white and Bisu in yellow where Bisu just kept taking the high, kept storming better, kept taking the little advantages while he could and rolled Stork. Such a good player when up to it.
i think u mean game 5 of their msl finals, on loki. the best pvp of all times.
afaik stork forgot to research goon range in that one, which made him lose all the early game skirmishes slightly, which then snowballed into a bisu win.
yeah and remember that osl where storks reaver micro out shined bisu, and he had better builds and timings? Its not so easy to call one way or the other
No one said it was. Stork's PvP may not be so great, but he can probably do better when it matters. Hoping for Bisu 2-1 because Stork has OSL and Bisu has a better chance with the large amount of zergs in MSL.
As a Protoss player I have to say this power rank put a huge grin on my face. I absolutely agree that Stork, Bisu, and Kal should be top three, although I think the ordering can be a little up in the air. Either way we will find out for sure once they've had their Ro8 games. I think if you look at momentum then it is definitely not with Jaedong or Flash atm. And call it fanboyism but I have every confidence that Bisu would destroy Jaedong in a Bo5 right now, and Stork would similarly destroy Flash. But we shall see.
On January 03 2011 09:43 Slow Motion wrote: As a Protoss player I have to say this power rank put a huge grin on my face. I absolutely agree that Stork, Bisu, and Kal should be top three, although I think the ordering can be a little up in the air. Either way we will find out for sure once they've had their Ro8 games. I think if you look at momentum then it is definitely not with Jaedong or Flash atm. And call it fanboyism but I have every confidence that Bisu would destroy Jaedong in a Bo5 right now, and Stork would similarly destroy Flash. But we shall see.
I do call that fanboyism, yes. There might be a chance they could take a Bo5 off of Jaedong and Flash respectively but destroy them? o.O You've got to be kidding me.
Even after a rough night with Lomo, Jaedong would probably still own Bisu in a Bo5... And Flash hasn't lost a Bo5 vs Protoss since... heck, I don't know if he has actually lost a Bo5 vs Protoss ever.
On January 03 2011 09:43 Slow Motion wrote: As a Protoss player I have to say this power rank put a huge grin on my face. I absolutely agree that Stork, Bisu, and Kal should be top three, although I think the ordering can be a little up in the air. Either way we will find out for sure once they've had their Ro8 games. I think if you look at momentum then it is definitely not with Jaedong or Flash atm. And call it fanboyism but I have every confidence that Bisu would destroy Jaedong in a Bo5 right now, and Stork would similarly destroy Flash. But we shall see.
I do call that fanboyism, yes. There might be a chance they could take a Bo5 off of Jaedong and Flash respectively but destroy them? o.O You've got to be kidding me.
Even after a rough night with Lomo, Jaedong would probably still own Bisu in a Bo5... And Flash hasn't lost a Bo5 vs Protoss since... heck, I don't know if he has actually lost a Bo5 vs Protoss ever.
Flash got 3-0'd by Stork in Daum, that's probably the only one. But to be fair, he doesn't play too many Bo5s with protoss that are at his level anyway, most of them are against Kal/Pure/free. Plenty of odd Bo3 losses though. I don't know about Stork, but I could definitely see Bisu beating Jaedong in a Bo5, especially right now. But by no means would Jaedong "own" Bisu in a Bo5, if GOM is any indication.
On January 03 2011 09:43 Slow Motion wrote: As a Protoss player I have to say this power rank put a huge grin on my face. I absolutely agree that Stork, Bisu, and Kal should be top three, although I think the ordering can be a little up in the air. Either way we will find out for sure once they've had their Ro8 games. I think if you look at momentum then it is definitely not with Jaedong or Flash atm. And call it fanboyism but I have every confidence that Bisu would destroy Jaedong in a Bo5 right now, and Stork would similarly destroy Flash. But we shall see.
I do call that fanboyism, yes. There might be a chance they could take a Bo5 off of Jaedong and Flash respectively but destroy them? o.O You've got to be kidding me.
Even after a rough night with Lomo, Jaedong would probably still own Bisu in a Bo5... And Flash hasn't lost a Bo5 vs Protoss since... heck, I don't know if he has actually lost a Bo5 vs Protoss ever.
Flash got 3-0'd by Stork in Daum, that's probably the only one. But to be fair, he doesn't play too many Bo5s with protoss that are at his level anyway, most of them are against Kal/Pure/free. Plenty of odd Bo3 losses though. I don't know about Stork, but I could definitely see Bisu beating Jaedong in a Bo5, especially right now. But by no means would Jaedong "own" Bisu in a Bo5, if GOM is any indication.
When Flash was 14 or 15.... yes. He was at the start of his career basically, it's quite impressive he even made it to the Bo5 stages of that OSL.
Well, I'm not sure if GOM is any indication. It was quite a while back and since then Jaedong has consistently played on another level than Bisu. Bisu has only been stepping up his game recently and I'm not convinced it's enough to beat JD in a Bo5.
Anyways, I never said it was impossible for these two to lose Bo5s to Stork and Bisu, but that other guys was claiming they "would get destroyed". Pretty bold considering Flash and JD are probably the best Bo5 players in the world.
On January 03 2011 04:57 Mortality wrote: Just so everyone is clear, the original purpose of the Power Rank was to measure hotness. This has mostly been interpreted as "who is the strongest player right now" or "based on recent results, who would you choose to win a bo5."
I also on general principle advocate this kind of interpretation, because any player no matter how skilled can experience bumps in the road. But the significance of those bumps is something that also must be taken into consideration. Let's ignore last season and all the other season before. What's a more significant bump in the road: a proleague loss or a Starleague loss that prevents advancement to the next round?
League advancement has always been a critical element of Power Rank. Always. In large part because it measures skill, but also because Starleague and SPL Playoffs (not regular season) are where glory is found.
Flash will not be finding glory this season. No matter how much that upsets you, it's the truth. Flash set a new record for worst drop in Starleague performance from one season to the next. Right now, Flash is not very hot.
leagues are valuable as accomplishments. the league games, no matter how lucky, are significant because badges are won, and badges are invested with meaning. however, these games have no more significance by virtue of their accomplishment value. all the significant factors that measure the value of a win can be isolated without reference to which particular title it was about. this includes stuff like pressure, and also include the obvious strength of schedule, how the game developed etc.
you are right in outlining the two types of value in a power rankings, but there is a problem when you say that starleague advancement means hotness. hotness seems like more of a pure performance thing. your argument is that league advancement is important independent of skill performance, but i'm not sure how much it excuses ranking flash lower, since no one else has won any big tourney yet, and flash is merely logged out of some by losing a handful of games. in a purely accomplishment ranking like the tennis rankings, even if you are a former champion getting knocked out of a tourney, you won't really be overtaken until your significant rival wins something and actually gets the points, and you don't even lose the points you have until they expire by a set time limit.
there seems to be an immediate penalty for flash because he got knocked out of a round of tournaments, and this is rather hard to justify in a consistent way even if we take accomplishments points to be the only criteria.
If individual league performance was measured so heavily, Calm wouldn't be below Flash. It's not too heavily based on those. We can all agree that Bisu and Stork are the best right now, yes? The only other player on their level is Flash, but he was just handed 3 pretty embarrassing defeats at the hands of Classic, Ssak, and Hyuk, a HUGE dropoff in performance from last season. Honestly, the only big point of debate for me is #3/4/5. Flash might belong above Jaedong(maybe not), and I don't really know where Kal belongs.
On January 03 2011 09:43 Slow Motion wrote: As a Protoss player I have to say this power rank put a huge grin on my face. I absolutely agree that Stork, Bisu, and Kal should be top three, although I think the ordering can be a little up in the air. Either way we will find out for sure once they've had their Ro8 games. I think if you look at momentum then it is definitely not with Jaedong or Flash atm. And call it fanboyism but I have every confidence that Bisu would destroy Jaedong in a Bo5 right now, and Stork would similarly destroy Flash. But we shall see.
I do call that fanboyism, yes. There might be a chance they could take a Bo5 off of Jaedong and Flash respectively but destroy them? o.O You've got to be kidding me.
Even after a rough night with Lomo, Jaedong would probably still own Bisu in a Bo5... And Flash hasn't lost a Bo5 vs Protoss since... heck, I don't know if he has actually lost a Bo5 vs Protoss ever.
Flash got 3-0'd by Stork in Daum, that's probably the only one. But to be fair, he doesn't play too many Bo5s with protoss that are at his level anyway, most of them are against Kal/Pure/free. Plenty of odd Bo3 losses though. I don't know about Stork, but I could definitely see Bisu beating Jaedong in a Bo5, especially right now. But by no means would Jaedong "own" Bisu in a Bo5, if GOM is any indication.
Comparing past BoXs is kind of pointless. Because when Stork/Bisu were at their primes, Flash went through his turtle->pwned phase. And when Flash became dominant, the entire protoss race pretty much did nothing. Now, whether the lack of convergence between protoss dominance and Flash dominance is due to maps - terran or protoss favored in PvT - or simply them peaking/slumping at inopportune times, we'll never know.
It's really funny that Flash fanboys are talking like Flash's TvP is invincible. At one point, Flash's TvP was basically a punching bag for Bisu/Stork/Jangbi/Best. Times change, metagame change. Maps change. Things change. There's really no way one can truly predict future theoretical Bo5s among the top players. What if the metagame of PvT changes back in protoss favor, like it seems to be doing now? In the end, the difference among these top players aren't as big as many believe. They're all capable of beating each other. So the whole "My player can beat your player in a Bo5" holds very little water unless it has actually happened recently.
On January 03 2011 12:25 Lightwip wrote: If individual league performance was measured so heavily, Calm wouldn't be below Flash. It's not too heavily based on those. We can all agree that Bisu and Stork are the best right now, yes? The only other player on their level is Flash, but he was just handed 3 pretty embarrassing defeats at the hands of Classic, Ssak, and Hyuk, a HUGE dropoff in performance from last season. Honestly, the only big point of debate for me is #3/4/5. Flash might belong above Jaedong(maybe not), and I don't really know where Kal belongs.
I think there's a difference between being the better player and performing better over a handful of games. After Flash's dominating year, are a few losses enough to say that someone else is better than him? Ofcourse not.
I know skill isn't doing him any good if he's out of the leagues, but as I said before: he's not on 100% winratio so he will ofcourse lose some games and this time it was the wrong games. Like the example with Kal. Flash wins almost everytime. WWWW and then one loss and BAM Kal is the better player? It doesn't work that way, I can play 100 games vs my friend and I might lose 10 of them and if it was in a tourny I'd have worse results than him but im still better because i win 90% of the time we play. And Flash doesn't have to prove he can win when it matters.
So imo, as I said before, this ranking shows more whos doing better right now, a short time limit, rather than who is best at bw right now. And I'm fine with that.
PS. Baubo, the skill gap isn't as big as some might believe. But if you're in every final for a year it's pretty big. We're talking about flash here.
On January 03 2011 12:42 StylishVODs wrote: And Flash doesn't have to prove he can win when it matters.
Why not? He certainly does have to prove it. You can win all the games that don't matter, but if you lose when it does matter, what good is all those other games? Or maybe you mean that he's already proved that he can. Well, times change, you have to consistently keep proving it. I'm not saying Flash's time is done, but dropping out of both leagues due to losses to all 3 races on different days is serious reason for concern. If not for his outstanding PL record, he'd have nothing but his history.
On January 03 2011 12:42 StylishVODs wrote: And Flash doesn't have to prove he can win when it matters.
Why not? He certainly does have to prove it. You can win all the games that don't matter, but if you lose when it does matter, what good is all those other games? Or maybe you mean that he's already proved that he can. Well, times change, you have to consistently keep proving it. I'm not saying Flash's time is done, but dropping out of both leagues due to losses to all 3 races on different days is serious reason for concern. If not for his outstanding PL record, he'd have nothing but his history.
Flash doesn't have to prove he's not a choker. He's not a choker, never have been. Times change yes, but we're talking about flash here and not some kid who made into one starleague finals once. All I'm saying is it's too soon to specualte wether or not someone is better than him yet because it seems like some people are based on a few games.
On January 03 2011 12:42 StylishVODs wrote: And Flash doesn't have to prove he can win when it matters.
Why not? He certainly does have to prove it. You can win all the games that don't matter, but if you lose when it does matter, what good is all those other games? Or maybe you mean that he's already proved that he can. Well, times change, you have to consistently keep proving it. I'm not saying Flash's time is done, but dropping out of both leagues due to losses to all 3 races on different days is serious reason for concern. If not for his outstanding PL record, he'd have nothing but his history.
Flash doesn't have to prove he's not a choker. He's not a choker, never have been. Times change yes, but we're talking about flash here and not some kid who made into one starleague finals once. All I'm saying is it's too soon to specualte wether or not someone is better than him yet because it seems like some people are based on a few games.
Well, he's not a choker on any day but those days on which he lost to mediocre opponents. And this is a perfect time to speculate, because he's showing weakness. You can't declare anything yet, but speculating is not really a problem.
On January 03 2011 12:42 StylishVODs wrote: And Flash doesn't have to prove he can win when it matters.
Why not? He certainly does have to prove it. You can win all the games that don't matter, but if you lose when it does matter, what good is all those other games? Or maybe you mean that he's already proved that he can. Well, times change, you have to consistently keep proving it. I'm not saying Flash's time is done, but dropping out of both leagues due to losses to all 3 races on different days is serious reason for concern. If not for his outstanding PL record, he'd have nothing but his history.
Flash doesn't have to prove he's not a choker. He's not a choker, never have been. Times change yes, but we're talking about flash here and not some kid who made into one starleague finals once. All I'm saying is it's too soon to specualte wether or not someone is better than him yet because it seems like some people are based on a few games.
Well, he's not a choker on any day but those days on which he lost to mediocre opponents. And this is a perfect time to speculate, because he's showing weakness. You can't declare anything yet, but speculating is not really a problem.
I don't think choking is a proper way to describe it. He didn't lose because he couldn't handle the preassure because we know he can. He probably wasn't even that nervous because he most likely thought he'd be making CCs in Ssaks base at the end of the game. He lost because he lost, plain and simple. It's bw, you can't have 100% winratio.
I agree though, speculating is good right now but people shouldn't jump to conclusions just yet.
On January 03 2011 09:43 Slow Motion wrote: As a Protoss player I have to say this power rank put a huge grin on my face. I absolutely agree that Stork, Bisu, and Kal should be top three, although I think the ordering can be a little up in the air. Either way we will find out for sure once they've had their Ro8 games. I think if you look at momentum then it is definitely not with Jaedong or Flash atm. And call it fanboyism but I have every confidence that Bisu would destroy Jaedong in a Bo5 right now, and Stork would similarly destroy Flash. But we shall see.
I do call that fanboyism, yes. There might be a chance they could take a Bo5 off of Jaedong and Flash respectively but destroy them? o.O You've got to be kidding me.
Even after a rough night with Lomo, Jaedong would probably still own Bisu in a Bo5... And Flash hasn't lost a Bo5 vs Protoss since... heck, I don't know if he has actually lost a Bo5 vs Protoss ever.
Flash got 3-0'd by Stork in Daum, that's probably the only one. But to be fair, he doesn't play too many Bo5s with protoss that are at his level anyway, most of them are against Kal/Pure/free. Plenty of odd Bo3 losses though. I don't know about Stork, but I could definitely see Bisu beating Jaedong in a Bo5, especially right now. But by no means would Jaedong "own" Bisu in a Bo5, if GOM is any indication.
Well, I'm not sure if GOM is any indication. It was quite a while back and since then Jaedong has consistently played on another level than Bisu. Bisu has only been stepping up his game recently and I'm not convinced it's enough to beat JD in a Bo5.
Gom may not in and of itself be an indication, but bisu has not lost a match to jaedong since game 5 from that bo5 series and that is a good indication if any.
On January 03 2011 09:43 Slow Motion wrote: As a Protoss player I have to say this power rank put a huge grin on my face. I absolutely agree that Stork, Bisu, and Kal should be top three, although I think the ordering can be a little up in the air. Either way we will find out for sure once they've had their Ro8 games. I think if you look at momentum then it is definitely not with Jaedong or Flash atm. And call it fanboyism but I have every confidence that Bisu would destroy Jaedong in a Bo5 right now, and Stork would similarly destroy Flash. But we shall see.
I do call that fanboyism, yes. There might be a chance they could take a Bo5 off of Jaedong and Flash respectively but destroy them? o.O You've got to be kidding me.
Even after a rough night with Lomo, Jaedong would probably still own Bisu in a Bo5... And Flash hasn't lost a Bo5 vs Protoss since... heck, I don't know if he has actually lost a Bo5 vs Protoss ever.
Flash got 3-0'd by Stork in Daum, that's probably the only one. But to be fair, he doesn't play too many Bo5s with protoss that are at his level anyway, most of them are against Kal/Pure/free. Plenty of odd Bo3 losses though. I don't know about Stork, but I could definitely see Bisu beating Jaedong in a Bo5, especially right now. But by no means would Jaedong "own" Bisu in a Bo5, if GOM is any indication.
Well, I'm not sure if GOM is any indication. It was quite a while back and since then Jaedong has consistently played on another level than Bisu. Bisu has only been stepping up his game recently and I'm not convinced it's enough to beat JD in a Bo5.
Gom may not in and of itself be an indication, but bisu has not lost a match to jaedong since game 5 from that bo5 series and that is a good indication if any.
WTF? He lost 2 games at the WCG 2009 grand finals (not in the TLPD) in their Bo3. They haven't played any other BoX series since then although Jaedong has lost a number of PL games to Bisu. Hardly anything conclusive at this point but I would give Jadeong a slight edge in any BoX series over Bisu.
Bisu destroying Jaedong and Stork destroying Flash is laughable. I don't mind the Power Ranking at all, but comments like these are really ridiculous when JD and Flash have been by far the two best players for a year and have each only given the smallest evidence of faltering.
On January 03 2011 04:57 Mortality wrote: Just so everyone is clear, the original purpose of the Power Rank was to measure hotness. This has mostly been interpreted as "who is the strongest player right now" or "based on recent results, who would you choose to win a bo5."
I also on general principle advocate this kind of interpretation, because any player no matter how skilled can experience bumps in the road. But the significance of those bumps is something that also must be taken into consideration. Let's ignore last season and all the other season before. What's a more significant bump in the road: a proleague loss or a Starleague loss that prevents advancement to the next round?
League advancement has always been a critical element of Power Rank. Always. In large part because it measures skill, but also because Starleague and SPL Playoffs (not regular season) are where glory is found.
Flash will not be finding glory this season. No matter how much that upsets you, it's the truth. Flash set a new record for worst drop in Starleague performance from one season to the next. Right now, Flash is not very hot.
leagues are valuable as accomplishments. the league games, no matter how lucky, are significant because badges are won, and badges are invested with meaning. however, these games have no more significance by virtue of their accomplishment value. all the significant factors that measure the value of a win can be isolated without reference to which particular title it was about. this includes stuff like pressure, and also include the obvious strength of schedule, how the game developed etc.
you are right in outlining the two types of value in a power rankings, but there is a problem when you say that starleague advancement means hotness. hotness seems like more of a pure performance thing. your argument is that league advancement is important independent of skill performance, but i'm not sure how much it excuses ranking flash lower, since no one else has won any big tourney yet, and flash is merely logged out of some by losing a handful of games. in a purely accomplishment ranking like the tennis rankings, even if you are a former champion getting knocked out of a tourney, you won't really be overtaken until your significant rival wins something and actually gets the points, and you don't even lose the points you have until they expire by a set time limit.
there seems to be an immediate penalty for flash because he got knocked out of a round of tournaments, and this is rather hard to justify in a consistent way even if we take accomplishments points to be the only criteria.
I completely fail to understand how you think he shouldn't be punished for dropping out of both leagues and how you refuse to see the significance. His results this month will prevent advancement in the leagues. No more chances to prove himself where it counts most for the rest of the season, no more pitting himself against the best in BoX play. No more glory. If that's not a drop in hotness, then I don't know what is.
You act like this only happened to Flash because he's Flash? Not at all. League advancement has ALWAYS played a large role in Power Rank. Month-to-month record has always mattered. These combined with subjective analysis of skill are what make up Power Rank. By advancement, Flash is not even in the top 10. By record Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, Hydra, Calm and Great are all ahead of him. Subjective analysis of skill is what's keeping him on the ranking at all.
If you want to look at seasonal accomplishments and history, look at KeSPA rank. That's what your precious tennis rankings are analogous to (and why the fuck does everyone always, always bring up tennis rankings?!). That's not the same as hotness.
EPT
