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On January 02 2011 06:24 Milkis wrote:
I wouldn't put Flash at first in this PR -- I'm pretty certain about that. That's not my complaint. Bisu did get knocked out of the OSL -- but honestly, why should that hurt him when that happened last month? Bisu played A LOT better since then and honestly if we're going by how well the players are performing for this given month, I don't think Stork at first is anywhere near unquestionable -- in fact, I'm just questioning flamewheel's metrics because he seems to care a bit TOO much about "He's in OSL, this guy is not, he's higher in ranking". If we care about how well the player performs and performs only, we don't even need the Power Rank -- we have KeSPA ranking for that.
Power Rank should see how well the players are playing independent of results in whatever league as a separate metric and as far as that is concerned I don't think flamewheel even looks at that . I don't like putting weight on ANY arbitrary league. The concentration should be on games -- not just "Oh this player is not in MSL, he must not be that high in a "power" rank". That's ridiculous.
Good argument backed up by great logic.
See, suppose Stork now wins the OSL 3-2, the MSL 3-1, but because he had to practice so much for it he goes 1-4 in the PL. Putting his monthly record at 7-7. OTOH, Flash goes 12-1 in the PL. Obviously, we can now determine that Flash is the vastly superior player, and Stork is obviously not worthy of a top 10 PR ranking. I mean, who can be top 10 when he wins 50% of the time?
But Flamewheel's weird bias against the proleague in that instance would unfortunately put Flash below Stork. A travesty, indeed.
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5003 Posts
On January 02 2011 08:11 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2011 23:33 Milkis wrote:On January 01 2011 20:58 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 01 2011 16:34 Milkis wrote:
lol this is seriously the worst power ranking i have ever seen in my life.
The ranking seems to put some ridiculous weight on being in OSL/MSL -- really? Enough to put Stork over Bisu, when Stork suffered some embarrassing losses recently? I dunno, that's just arbitrary bullshit to me lol.
Flash is bonjwa but he's #5? That's utter nonsense -- if Flash is not PR #1, he is not bonjwa, let it be that. Drop the arbitrary title if you're going to admit he's not the scariest player at the moment.
And then you have Kal magically at 3rd. Have you seen him play in the Proleague? I think you got swept a little too much by Kal vs Shine or something, because Kal is 1-4 in Proleague.
Hogil #10? It makes me wonder if you even WATCHED the games that Hogil actually played -- they hardly resembled Hogil actually playing well.
This is seriously disgusting lol. honestly looks like some sort of ridiculous fanboyism and arbitrary and easily swayed rankings. If your rankings shift that much in 15 days then well, I question the quality of the rankings before =/ Yeah Bisu's play is soooooooooooooooooooooo inspiring... Embarassing loss like to Lucifer yeah ? Which are the others exactly ? At the very limit, the first to Shine I guess. You're pretty lucky that Bisu had a BO win against Kal, because it's the only reason he's at And, guess what, you're also putting an arbitrary weight on PL. Honestly what would you have wanted ? What would you have done ? Noo ne is really dominating atm, and no one is playing well in all three match up. I don't see for instance, how you could put Jaedong over Kal with Jaedong's play. I'd say you have your own biases and you're own way of ranking, which might explain why some people are happy about this PR, and some are saying it's utter crap. If I want a non-arbitrary PR, I go check TPLD, or Kespa's ranking. And as for fanboyism, there has been much much worse on the PR in the past. The point is that the Power Ranking is very inconsistent. If I wanted to know who was performing well in PL and was still in OSL/MSL, I can look it up. I don't need the PR to tell me this. PR should be for players who are playing well, showing us good games showing off their skills and honestly, this PR is terrible in that regard. It doesnt hurt that the writer believes it's "unquestionable" Stork is #1, when it is VERY VERY questionable. Whoever wrote the PR, well, should think the rankings over before posting them ~_~ I ignored the rest of your post because I stopped reading at "Bisu had a BO win against Kal" and the tone of your voice implies that I'm some bisu fanboy or something. Quite the contrary. Stork has always been better than those two, you're just seeing the results of that now. wow some people here LOL You just sound like you're just blinded by fanboyism. Just chill. Don't just go calling PR a terrible one just because your favorite player isn't in top 3. The world doesn't revolve around flash and jaedong.
I would highly prefer it if you start actually reading past your own biases before trying to pull some ridiculous "oh he's just a fanboy LOL" bullshit. Clearly you're reading this entire thing in an extremely twisted way and miss a lot of my points where I'm not arguing for Flash or Jaedong to be in top 3. You've completely missed the point and honestly, I'm not surprised considering the quality of your other posts.
Unlike other people, I don't let the fact that I'm a fan get in the way of my thinking -- judging by your tag, you're probably a Stork drone who is so hyped by a bad decision to see Stork so high up that you're trying to paint all the other people who think this PR is bad by "fanboyism". Is that all you honestly have? You made no real points past that -- and reading your posts in other threads honestly I recommend you highly re-learn reading comprehension and start considering the fact that maybe, just maybe, other people might know more than you.
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Its been a while since the PR discussion was this heated, I guess its understandable given whats happened. Its the passion that makes this scene as great as it is.
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On January 02 2011 12:27 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2011 08:11 MuffinDude wrote:On January 01 2011 23:33 Milkis wrote:On January 01 2011 20:58 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 01 2011 16:34 Milkis wrote:
lol this is seriously the worst power ranking i have ever seen in my life.
The ranking seems to put some ridiculous weight on being in OSL/MSL -- really? Enough to put Stork over Bisu, when Stork suffered some embarrassing losses recently? I dunno, that's just arbitrary bullshit to me lol.
Flash is bonjwa but he's #5? That's utter nonsense -- if Flash is not PR #1, he is not bonjwa, let it be that. Drop the arbitrary title if you're going to admit he's not the scariest player at the moment.
And then you have Kal magically at 3rd. Have you seen him play in the Proleague? I think you got swept a little too much by Kal vs Shine or something, because Kal is 1-4 in Proleague.
Hogil #10? It makes me wonder if you even WATCHED the games that Hogil actually played -- they hardly resembled Hogil actually playing well.
This is seriously disgusting lol. honestly looks like some sort of ridiculous fanboyism and arbitrary and easily swayed rankings. If your rankings shift that much in 15 days then well, I question the quality of the rankings before =/ Yeah Bisu's play is soooooooooooooooooooooo inspiring... Embarassing loss like to Lucifer yeah ? Which are the others exactly ? At the very limit, the first to Shine I guess. You're pretty lucky that Bisu had a BO win against Kal, because it's the only reason he's at And, guess what, you're also putting an arbitrary weight on PL. Honestly what would you have wanted ? What would you have done ? Noo ne is really dominating atm, and no one is playing well in all three match up. I don't see for instance, how you could put Jaedong over Kal with Jaedong's play. I'd say you have your own biases and you're own way of ranking, which might explain why some people are happy about this PR, and some are saying it's utter crap. If I want a non-arbitrary PR, I go check TPLD, or Kespa's ranking. And as for fanboyism, there has been much much worse on the PR in the past. The point is that the Power Ranking is very inconsistent. If I wanted to know who was performing well in PL and was still in OSL/MSL, I can look it up. I don't need the PR to tell me this. PR should be for players who are playing well, showing us good games showing off their skills and honestly, this PR is terrible in that regard. It doesnt hurt that the writer believes it's "unquestionable" Stork is #1, when it is VERY VERY questionable. Whoever wrote the PR, well, should think the rankings over before posting them ~_~ I ignored the rest of your post because I stopped reading at "Bisu had a BO win against Kal" and the tone of your voice implies that I'm some bisu fanboy or something. Quite the contrary. Stork has always been better than those two, you're just seeing the results of that now. wow some people here LOL You just sound like you're just blinded by fanboyism. Just chill. Don't just go calling PR a terrible one just because your favorite player isn't in top 3. The world doesn't revolve around flash and jaedong. I would highly prefer it if you start actually reading past your own biases before trying to pull some ridiculous "oh he's just a fanboy LOL" bullshit. Clearly you're reading this entire thing in an extremely twisted way and miss a lot of my points where I'm not arguing for Flash or Jaedong to be in top 3. You've completely missed the point and honestly, I'm not surprised considering the quality of your other posts. Unlike other people, I don't let the fact that I'm a fan get in the way of my thinking -- judging by your tag, you're probably a Stork drone who is so hyped by a bad decision to see Stork so high up that you're trying to paint all the other people who think this PR is bad by "fanboyism". Is that all you honestly have? You made no real points past that -- and reading your posts in other threads honestly I recommend you highly re-learn reading comprehension and start considering the fact that maybe, just maybe, other people might know more than you.
Well heres what I see.
a. Jaedong and flash are almost knocked out of the individual league, so you want flamewheel to put more emphasis on proleague.
b. Stork went 6-1 in the proleague this month. Flash also 6-1. Jaedong 7-3. Bisu 6-2. So they are about even in proleague. Yes stork did lose to lucifer, but everyone has their off days.
c. Stork is in both leagues, while playing very strong in both. While Bisu and Jaedong are only in MSL.
d. I can see bisu take #1, but I can't see how
On January 02 2011 06:24 Milkis wrote: I don't think Stork at first is anywhere near unquestionable
You can easily argue that Stork can be first with him doing decently in proleague while being in both msl and osl. Its a bit ridiculous that you can say stork being #1 as "nowhere near unquestionable."
e. If you look at other PR, progression in individual leagues is very important, which was why flash and jaedong remained at the top for so long.
If you read the other posts in this thread, you can probably tell I'm not the only one who disagrees with you.
Yes I am a stork fan, I just didn't make any reason why stork should be first because many others have done so before me. I'm trying to justify that Stork could be first while you're just saying he cannot be first.
Oh btw, from your other post in the OSL thing.
"Perhaps it's because I'm a huge Jaedong fan, but I think such attitudes are rather disgusting."
You said yourself that you let you being a fan blind you to some degree. Really, stop contradicting yourself.
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@baubo I think you're overdoing it on the sarcasm now.
Milkis does have valid points, but I disagree with him. I do think Stork was a better choice than Bisu for #1. Bisu had some amazing play against JD and looked very strong coming out of his group in MSL, but Stork had some very strong play to advance as #1 in his OSL group. And while the Shine vs Bisu series that knocked him out of OSL did happen in November, those matches were dated Nov. 26 so turning a complete blind eye to them is ridiculous. The reality is that they put a chink in Bisu's armor. And Kal also -- yes Bisu won in the MSL group, but you act like the BO advantage was an inconsequential element, which is ridiculous considering Kal's recent results against Bisu, including that one-sided curb stomp in their ace match on Bloody Ridge. And although Bisu's PvT has been looking solid this season, I'm not yet convinced in its steadiness.
Maybe Stork's position isn't "unquestionable," but it's a solid choice that most people seem to agree with, so this rabid attack at flamewheel (in particular, stating that these rankings were based on fanboyism...) is not exactly fair. Stork may fall next month if he can't square his PvP around since he will have to face Bisu in MSL (in my opinion, #3 ranked PvP player) and will likely face Kal in OSL (#2 ranked PvP player), but those results haven't happened yet.
I usually think Stork gets rated higher than he deserves most months. Not this past month.
Kal's high position you (Milkis) can argue with, but the thing about Kal is that he's been pulling through when it matters most. 2-1 in OSL, 2-1 in MSL, 2-1 in ace matches... and he's done this against tough competition too (imo, 2nd toughest schedule of anyone last month). Yes, his proleague results have on the whole been atrocious, but the question is: how do you compare his results to Flash or JD when Kal wins when it counts most and they struggle under the same circumstances? It's not like they were facing tougher competition because they weren't. If anything, they had it easier, by a lot.
So, okay, I can accept Kal under Flash and Jaedong, but saying it's "bullshit" that he's below them is silly. Especially with Flash who will be sitting on the bench for the rest of the season as other players find glory in Starleague all because he couldn't back up his big words. Honestly, he's lucky he has proleague where he can continue looking good against players of variable skill. In past seasons nobody... and I mean nobody has ever in the entire history of Starcraft fallen that far in Starleague. Flash set a new record and it wasn't a good one.
Hogil I can agree with. I did not even consider him a choice for CBNC. He got lucky in MSL that ForGG retired suddenly. He had exactly two big wins: JD and Midas and that's it. The win vs JD was more like JD's loss and I didn't see the game vs Midas so I can't judge but I'd be surprised if Hogil's play truly impressed me.
I also think some people got listed on the CBNC who didn't deserve it because they weren't anywhere close to being PR worthy, which is what CBNC is all about. Other than that, it was about as good a ranking as we could hope for on a month as chaotic as this one.
P.S. Is it just me or is TL.net a little laggy right now?
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5003 Posts
Oh, I missed those posts, sorry.
The point is that it's quite obvious Flamewheel takes into consideration not just the period between the 16~31st but pretty much all of december and certain parts of november. Let's just take November/December Stats.
Kal is 18-12 during this period. -- 9-9 in december, notably.
Flash is 15-5 in this period. 7-5 in december.
Dunno, I think those stats say a lot. I don't buy the argument that this is only because Kal has a heavier schedule, since he's always been performing at the level.
I do apologize over the remark that 'There is no reason to put Kal over Flash", because the point of the statement was to be dismissive of the logic that is used -- I honestly disagree with it.
Also, to your remark that Kal was #3 the previous month -- note that rankings are relative based on how players perform. I don't believe him to be the "third best player" this month -- he had his shine with November's PR, and that's honestly all that is. I honestly think 9-9 record justifies #3.
And while the Shine vs Bisu series that knocked him out of OSL did happen in November, those matches were dated Nov. 26 so turning a complete blind eye to them is ridiculous.
I highly recommend you watch Shine vs Stork (the first encounter), and Stork vs Violet if we're watching for Shine destroying Protosses before Protosses learned how to deal with it better, and if we're looking for games near December. Stork vs Violet is the worst game I have seen in my life.
That actually brings up another point. Stork vs Violet was an example of Stork having a terrible, terrible, off day. Suppose this happens in an MSL or an OSL and he gets knocked out. How much do you weigh on that? This is specifically why I believe that MSL and OSL is weighted a bit too much in these rankings.
The reality is that they put a chink in Bisu's armor. And Kal also -- yes Bisu won in the MSL group, but you act like the BO advantage was an inconsequential element, which is ridiculous considering Kal's recent results against Bisu, including that one-sided curb stomp in their ace match on Bloody Ridge
You forget the one-sided curb stomp that occurred in the match before the ace game :[
Kal's high position you (Milkis) can argue with, but the thing about Kal is that he's been pulling through when it matters most. 2-1 in OSL, 2-1 in MSL, 2-1 in ace matches... and he's done this against tough competition too (imo, 2nd toughest schedule of anyone last month). Yes, his proleague results have on the whole been atrocious, but the question is: how do you compare his results to Flash or JD when Kal wins when it counts most and they struggle under the same circumstances? It's not like they were facing tougher competition because they weren't. If anything, they had it easier, by a lot.
I dunno about Struggle, but at least for Flash, it honestly looks like an off day(s) for me in terms of Flash. Jaedong I will agree is struggling, but in terms of gameplay -- I still do believe that these two players deserve some benefit of the doubt in terms of having off days. Jaedong and Flash definitely did have worse schedules than Kal before, and honestly, they've pulled through them pretty damn well.
So, okay, I can accept Kal under Flash and Jaedong, but saying it's "bullshit" that he's below them is silly. Especially with Flash who will be sitting on the bench for the rest of the season as other players find glory in Starleague all because he couldn't back up his big words. Honestly, he's lucky he has proleague where he can continue looking good against players of variable skill. In past seasons nobody... and I mean nobody has ever in the entire history of Starcraft fallen that far in Starleague. Flash set a new record and it wasn't a good one.
"bullshit" is a strong word, I do agree with that 
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This Power Rank... haven't seen Jaedong/Flash not in top 3 in forever
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All hell breaks loose! Flash and Jaedong are no longer #1 and #2 !! On a side note, I completely agree with #1,2,3.
Edit: My bad... THANK YOU SO MUCHHH for continuing PR. God bless 
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Nooooo my boy Flash has dropped! Thank you for continuing the power rank!
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i just wouldn't put kal above flash or jaedong because he isn't favored over them in any given game, isn't favored over any player by a larger margin than f/j is vs that player, and even though he's in two leagues he's less likely to win one than jaedong.
but maybe that's just my definition of "power."
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On January 02 2011 17:29 traced wrote:
i just wouldn't put kal above flash or jaedong because he isn't favored over them in any given game, isn't favored over any player by a larger margin than f/j is vs that player, and even though he's in two leagues he's less likely to win one than jaedong.
but maybe that's just my definition of "power."
You wouldn't favor Kal over flash in any other game when kal just beat flash in the first game of the osl?
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On January 02 2011 11:35 Waxangel wrote:
Dunno how long Milkis has been following TL Power Ranks, but continued progression in individual leagues has always been weighted very strongly, even if the game quality itself is poor.
This is what I was thinking. And the power ranks have also always been at the mercy of the writer. Most of them have a bit of subjectivity seep in.
I read the power rank a couple days ago and now I'm shocked there are so many people complaining this month. I should've known better, haha.
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On January 02 2011 11:35 Waxangel wrote:
Dunno how long Milkis has been following TL Power Ranks, but continued progression in individual leagues has always been weighted very strongly, even if the game quality itself is poor.
Isn't it true that that until they get to the final stages of an individual league, many players express that Proleague is their first practice priority in interviews? Once you get into the series play, then the individuals become a lot more telling, but in the various group stages from my anecdotal experience the average PL game is better.
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I would put Hogil a bit higher.
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I'm sure some Bisu fans will be asking "well, why isn't Bisu #1 then?" Honestly, even though Bisu's had some very impressive wins, in some games I'm just not quite seeing it yet. He's definitely looking much stronger and more solid as of late, but he doesn't seem to have what Stork has right now. After all, I don't think Bisu can play cell phone games and dominate with carriers, now can he?
obvious bisuhater trying to make fans mad.
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too much reliance on stats and presence in the starleagues, more needed to be said about player's abilities in games and dominance factor to justify rankings.
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On January 02 2011 18:10 Trap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2011 11:35 Waxangel wrote:
Dunno how long Milkis has been following TL Power Ranks, but continued progression in individual leagues has always been weighted very strongly, even if the game quality itself is poor. Isn't it true that that until they get to the final stages of an individual league, many players express that Proleague is their first practice priority in interviews? Once you get into the series play, then the individuals become a lot more telling, but in the various group stages from my anecdotal experience the average PL game is better.
No. That's incorrect. Players practice for the PL during "work time". They basically have to, assuming their team doesn't give time off. And they practice for SL in their own time, which is after hours. Of course, the question becomes what the player will do after hours. For non-SL players, this usually means practice more for the PL. For those in SL, it's up to them. Of course, top players tend to get some favorable treatments, but it's still relative.
It's also why it's so hard to maintain great play when you're in the MSL and/or the OSL. For example, Stork, Kal, and Calm will have to practice for 3+ different matchups in 3 days. Compare that to a PL-only player, who may only have to practice 1 or 2 games for sniping during this same time.
That's why it's really stupid to ignore being in starleagues, because the difficulty really grows exponentially the longer you stay in. It's also why what Flash has accomplished this past year is truly, truly amazing. And why so many players(Sea, Leta, etc.) can be proleague monsters yet never advance far individually.
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On January 02 2011 17:48 Monkeyshark wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2011 17:29 traced wrote:
i just wouldn't put kal above flash or jaedong because he isn't favored over them in any given game, isn't favored over any player by a larger margin than f/j is vs that player, and even though he's in two leagues he's less likely to win one than jaedong.
but maybe that's just my definition of "power." You wouldn't favor Kal over flash in any other game when kal just beat flash in the first game of the osl?
To be honest here... Flash is at 71% winratio vs protoss with a score of 8-3 vs kal and still on 2350 elo which is low for Flash but far higher than Kal has ever been.
Kal is obviously 3-8 vs Flash and at around 59% vs terrans.
Career records doesn't always play a big role when comparing players, but given that this is Flash we're talking about who beats Kal and other protosses almost every time with ease these days; one loss isn't really going to change my view on who's the obvious favourite in any given rematch.
I know PR has to punish people for dropping out of leagues, but seriously this thing about posting results when it matters is bullshit when talking about Jaedong and Flash.
The only reason we ever talk about it is about players who can't perform under preassure.
A player who will choke cannot perform under preassure and thus will drop the most important games. Flash and Jaedong don't do this.
Flash is bonjwa, floating on 2400+ elo and then drop some games. It doesn't matter what games he lose, he didn't choke or lose to preassure. He always does his best and he never chokes, but lets face it, he's on 71+% winratio overall and you can't get 71+% unless you lose some games.
If he lost those games in PL games where it might not have mattered he'd be #1 in PR but this time those games happened where it mattered so he drops a few spots.
That those games were dropped when they meant something doesn't say anything about his skill that we don't already know.
I still believe it's correct to show that the performance this month was off for Flash, but lets not get too far away from the truth here. He drops a few games after all this dominance and suddenly all of these players are stronger than him? seriously? no, but they had some better results for ONCE and it shows here because this is a monthly ranking and sometimes you lose a game.
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Let's enjoy this while it lasts my Protoss brotoss. I was hoping for Bisu to be first, but Stork's PvT is so sick that I have to be content with the way the PR ended up.
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EPT
