Take out Boxer. Take out NaDa. Take out July. Take out Oov. Take out Savior. Take out Bisu. Take out Jaedong. Take out Flash.
How many Starleague titles are left? Stout MSL (2004) Nal_Ra > NaDa YATGK MSL (2004) Gorush > NaDa CYON MSL (2005) Chojja > Savior GOMTV3 MSL (2007) Mind > Bisu Arena MSL (2008) ForGG > Jaedong Lost Saga MSL (2009) Luxury > Jangbi Avalon MSL (2009) Calm > Kwanro Progamer Open (OSL before it was called OSL) (1999) Freemura > TheBoy -- pre-LYH result Hanaro Tooniverse (again OSL) (1999) Grrrr > HOT-Forever -- pre-LYH result Freechal Open (again OSL) (2000) Garimto > Skelton -- pre-LYH result Sky OSL (2001) Garimto > Boxer Nate OSL (2002) Sync > HOT-Forever Sky OSL (2002) Reach > Boxer Olympus OSL (2003) Xellos > Yellow MyCube OSL (2003) Kingdom > Nal_Ra NHN Hangame OSL (2003) Nal_Ra > Zeus SO1 OSL (2005) Anytime > Boxer Shinhan Bank 1 OSL (2006) Casy > Chojja Daum OSL (2007) GGplay > Iris Incruit OSL (2008) Stork > Fantasy Korean Air OSL (2010) Effort > Flash
I took out 8 names and suddenly 34 out of 55 Starleagues... poof, gone. Let's ignore pre-LYH results, then 34 out of 52 Starleagues gone. So 8 people hold 65% of the trophies. And you'll notice of the ones left, 9 of those 21 feature one of those 8 players I mentioned.
By year... 2001 (only OSL at this point) - 1 tournament, Boxer in finals 2002 - 2 tournaments, Boxer in finals of one of them 2003 - 3 tournaments 2004 - 2 tournaments, NaDa in finals of both 2005 - 2 tournaments, Boxer in one final, Savior in the other 2006 - 1 tournament 2007 - 2 tournaments, Bisu in one of the finals 2008 - 2 tournaments, JD in one of the finals 2009 - 2 tournaments 2010 - 1 tournament, Flash in the finals Mean average: 1.8 tournaments per year do not have Boxer, NaDa, July, Oov, Savior, JD, or Flash in the finals. So the last 3 years have not really been unusual.
Okay, which tournaments were won by someone who has only once made the finals? YATGK MSL (2004) Gorush > NaDa (I know, really?!) Arena MSL (2008) ForGG > Jaedong Lost Saga MSL (2009) Luxury > Jangbi Avalon MSL (2009) Calm > Kwanro Progamer Open (OSL before it was called OSL) (1999) Freemura > TheBoy -- pre-LYH result Nate OSL (2002) Sync > HOT-Forever Olympus OSL (2003) Xellos > Yellow Shinhan Bank 1 OSL (2006) Casy > Chojja Daum OSL (2007) GGplay > Iris Korean Air OSL (2010) Effort > Flash
So.... right.
I think I've made my point clear: take out a small handful of players and you eliminate most of the results. If this modern era seems so "bad" for Terran, it's probably because Terran had three bonjwas back-to-back who ate up a large number of trophies (14 golds in total) from 2001 to 2006.
Historically this has been a Terran dominated game. More recently Terran has still been strong, but not winning everything.
Statistically speaking, Most of 2010 was actually pretty good for Terran. The start of 2010 swarm season was coming to an end and at the end of 2010 swarm season has started taking effect again, although right now, I'd actually say that Protoss is looking very strong again for the first time in... a while.
On January 06 2011 06:48 Severedevil wrote: (Luxury won an MSL but I'm pretty sure it was taken away from him for dishonest practices that may or may not have contributed to his MSL win in the first place.)
Just to be clear, the match-fixers were not fixing results to win Starleagues. They did not have anywhere near that kind of influence. They were fixing results to lose games and make money by betting against themselves.
So actually, Savior, Luxury, Yarnc, etc. were maybe slightly better than their results suggested during 2008-2009.
On January 06 2011 03:06 L0thar wrote: Just look at it, if we take out Flash: Last MSL winner: ForGG, 2008 Last WCG representative: Hwasin, 2007 Last OSL winner: Nada, 2006 (2006!!)
We got 2011 now and still counting.
Ya, and now imagine you take Jaedong out and count Zerg golds. What you have since the time of Saviour? Calm taking one gold.
In the same times I listed (which is kind of stupid considering it's different times for each league, but it doesn't really matter anyway) OSL: GGPlay, July, Effort MSL: Luxury, Calm WCG: Luxury
Even ignoring WCG performance, that's five individual titles grabbed by nonJaedong zergs vs zero titles won by nonFlash terrans. What was your point?
On January 06 2011 06:48 Severedevil wrote: Mind also won an MSL in that time for Terran (as did ForGG). Bisu and Stork are the only OSL/MSL winners for Protoss since Anytime in 2005.
Yes, protoss are generally in similar deep shit like terrans, but lacking Flash-like persona to make it up.
On January 06 2011 07:38 L0thar wrote: Yes, protoss are generally in similar deep shit like terrans, but lacking Flash-like persona to make it up.
Erm...Bisu? He won 3 starleagues and he's as dominant as Flash when he is on top. He just has problems with extended slumps. I don't think you know how dominant Bisu was in 08-09. For a time, he was better than both Flash and JD, just he went into a slump in 2010. When Flash inevitably goes into a slump, the situation is reversed.
Bisu has never been as dominant as Flash was in 2010. Flash reached dual finals 3 times in a row and set untouchable records in both ELO and Kespa points ffs.
On January 06 2011 07:38 L0thar wrote: Yes, protoss are generally in similar deep shit like terrans, but lacking Flash-like persona to make it up.
Erm...Bisu? He won 3 starleagues and he's as dominant as Flash when he is on top. He just has problems with extended slumps. I don't think you know how dominant Bisu was in 08-09. For a time, he was better than both Flash and JD, just he went into a slump in 2010. When Flash inevitably goes into a slump, the situation is reversed.
Allow me to use your own quote from this PR
On January 02 2011 05:06 Lightwip wrote: He didn't accomplish anything for all his skill.
How fitting for Bisu in 08-09! He won only one MSL in those times, pretty lackluster to Flash four titles in 2010. As numerous people stated in this thread (you included), it's all about results, it doesn't matter how hypothetically strong you may be, if you are not winning when it matters.
I remember 08-09. Not perfectly but I do, some things maybe better than you. Bisu was indeed destroying everyone left and right and then managed to getting kicked out of both leagues in similar fashion like Flash now. Here is my memory a little weak though, was that the OSL he managed to backhoed his way back only to be kicked out again or was that different OSL?
And just to make one thing clear: Bisu indeed had periods when he was better then his opposition, Flash and JD included...at those times. But no way he has ever been so dominant like Flash last year. Nobody was, ever.
Anyway, I never denyied Bisu's three MSL, but he won only the third in the times I refered to. So no, he wasn't really a Flash-like persona in recent years. Maybe he will be this year, we'll see.
On January 06 2011 07:55 Holgerius wrote: Bisu has never been as dominant as Flash was in 2010. Flash reached dual finals 3 times in a row and set untouchable records in both ELO and Kespa points ffs.
Never said he was. Just referring to the two at that specific time period.
On January 02 2011 05:06 Lightwip wrote: He didn't accomplish anything for all his skill.
How fitting for Bisu in 08-09! He won only one MSL in those times, pretty lackluster to Flash four titles in 2010. As numerous people stated in this thread (you included), it's all about results, it doesn't matter how hypothetically strong you may be, if you are not winning when it matters.
I remember 08-09. Not perfectly but I do, some things maybe better than you. Bisu was indeed destroying everyone left and right and then managed to getting kicked out of both leagues in similar fashion like Flash now. Here is my memory a little weak though, was that the OSL he managed to backhoed his way back only to be kicked out again or was that different OSL?
And just to make one thing clear: Bisu indeed had periods when he was better then his opposition, Flash and JD included...at those times. But no way he has ever been so dominant like Flash last year. Nobody was, ever.
Anyway, I never denyied Bisu's three MSL, but he won only the third in the times I refered to. So no, he wasn't really a Flash-like persona in recent years. Maybe he will be this year, we'll see.
He also got a GOMTV win. It's less prestigious, but nevertheless he won against the same players as those of an SL. Maybe he didn't accomplish as much as Flash, that's not what I was saying. He still served as the dominant Protoss figure. Titles isn't the only factor in being dominant. He definitely was a Flash-like persona. Results are an important factor, but not the only one(read: don't quote mine me), because dominance is also important. If I thought they were, then wouldn't I say that Flash should be dropped from the PR or to at least #10 or so because his record this month was pretty mediocre?
On January 06 2011 07:55 Holgerius wrote: Bisu has never been as dominant as Flash was in 2010. Flash reached dual finals 3 times in a row and set untouchable records in both ELO and Kespa points ffs.
Never said he was. Just referring to the two at that specific time period.
On January 02 2011 05:06 Lightwip wrote: He didn't accomplish anything for all his skill.
How fitting for Bisu in 08-09! He won only one MSL in those times, pretty lackluster to Flash four titles in 2010. As numerous people stated in this thread (you included), it's all about results, it doesn't matter how hypothetically strong you may be, if you are not winning when it matters.
I remember 08-09. Not perfectly but I do, some things maybe better than you. Bisu was indeed destroying everyone left and right and then managed to getting kicked out of both leagues in similar fashion like Flash now. Here is my memory a little weak though, was that the OSL he managed to backhoed his way back only to be kicked out again or was that different OSL?
And just to make one thing clear: Bisu indeed had periods when he was better then his opposition, Flash and JD included...at those times. But no way he has ever been so dominant like Flash last year. Nobody was, ever.
Anyway, I never denyied Bisu's three MSL, but he won only the third in the times I refered to. So no, he wasn't really a Flash-like persona in recent years. Maybe he will be this year, we'll see.
He also got a GOMTV win. It's less prestigious, but nevertheless he won against the same players as those of an SL. Maybe he didn't accomplish as much as Flash, that's not what I was saying. He still served as the dominant Protoss figure. Titles isn't the only factor in being dominant. He definitely was a Flash-like persona. Results are an important factor, but not the only one(read: don't quote mine me), because dominance is also important. If I thought they were, then wouldn't I say that Flash should be dropped from the PR or to at least #10 or so because his record this month was pretty mediocre?
It seems like you misread my original post. I was specifically talking about number of titles and how protoss are missing Flash-like persona...in number of titles won in recent years. Nothing else.
On January 06 2011 10:50 ZlaSHeR wrote: I seriously disagree man, just because he was eliminated from both individuals doesn't merit a drop to #5.
At this point in time if you played Stork vs Flash, Bisu, or Kal, who would be favored.
I don't know what to say, a drop is deserved but to #5, =\
When Bisu was just as good as him and then lost both leagues back in the ToTM era, he was dropped to #5 too. Maybe Flash belongs above JD, but he certainly deserves a steep drop.
On January 06 2011 07:55 Holgerius wrote: Bisu has never been as dominant as Flash was in 2010. Flash reached dual finals 3 times in a row and set untouchable records in both ELO and Kespa points ffs.
He didn't even say it was. Seriously, do you get paid by Flash to defend him every single second? Or do you just worship him just because? Just when you thought Bisu fanboys can get bad....lol
I thought the purpose of these ranking was that it's a monthly power ranking. Yes, I would still bet Flash over anyone, but dropping out of both leagues in the month that the list is written for warranted... well, a drop in the list.
Flamewheel did a good job, considering how hectic the month was. His reasons were, well, quite rational. The hate was pretty undeserved.
heh, no pro BW means I didn't actually notice this until now.
looks mostly fine. would personally have had kal over bisu, and i'm not that sure hogil belongs, i'd have gone leta there myself even after his LOL end to the month
On January 06 2011 07:38 L0thar wrote: Yes, protoss are generally in similar deep shit like terrans, but lacking Flash-like persona to make it up.
Erm...Bisu? He won 3 starleagues and he's as dominant as Flash when he is on top. He just has problems with extended slumps. I don't think you know how dominant Bisu was in 08-09. For a time, he was better than both Flash and JD, just he went into a slump in 2010. When Flash inevitably goes into a slump, the situation is reversed.
Bisu was never as dominant as Flash has been recently. There was much hype for the possibility of Bisu as 5th bonjwa, but he failed the test. He lost to Mind, then he stopped appearing in finals at all for quite some time.
Flash succeeded. Bisu has never matched Flash's 2010 results or win-rate.
On January 06 2011 07:38 L0thar wrote: Yes, protoss are generally in similar deep shit like terrans, but lacking Flash-like persona to make it up.
Erm...Bisu? He won 3 starleagues and he's as dominant as Flash when he is on top. He just has problems with extended slumps. I don't think you know how dominant Bisu was in 08-09. For a time, he was better than both Flash and JD, just he went into a slump in 2010. When Flash inevitably goes into a slump, the situation is reversed.
Bisu was never as dominant as Flash has been recently. There was much hype for the possibility of Bisu as 5th bonjwa, but he failed the test. He lost to Mind, then he stopped appearing in finals at all for quite some time.
Flash succeeded. Bisu has never matched Flash's 2010 results or win-rate.
Bisu's results in the Golden Age seemed comparable to Flash in 2010, but Flash carried his run through three Starleague seasons to Bisu's one.
I think Bisu could have held that level of dominance for two seasons had it not been for unmanageable ZvP maps suddenly trashing the individual leagues (Tears of the Moon, Neo Harmony). But three seasons? Probably not.
On January 06 2011 07:55 Holgerius wrote: Bisu has never been as dominant as Flash was in 2010. Flash reached dual finals 3 times in a row and set untouchable records in both ELO and Kespa points ffs.
He didn't even say it was. Seriously, do you get paid by Flash to defend him every single second? Or do you just worship him just because? Just when you thought Bisu fanboys can get bad....lol
On January 06 2011 07:43 Lightwip wrote: He's as dominant as Flash when he is on top
EPT
