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On June 05 2010 12:53 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 01:42 7mk wrote:On June 04 2010 23:12 Iplaythings wrote:On June 04 2010 13:52 BloodDrunK wrote:Question: why is  Shine in the ranking when RorO isn't? he was 10-1 last month with a single loss to  JangBi.he's not even on CBNC.why? No idea, he' deserve ATLEAST CBNC with that record :o sometimes plexa just completely overlooks certain players, like he did with effort and snow right up until this month and quite a few players in the past but oh well doing the PR must be hard, so many games played.. I never overlook players. Effort didn't get PRd last month because his tie-breaker games were terrible. Snow didn't get ranked last month because he had only won like 3 games before the PR was published. Sure he looked promising but it was way to early to put him on the PR (he could have easily turned out like flying did). Roro didn't get featured this month because he's not winning against top line competitors. I mean, he's losing to jangbi and frozen which speaks some volumes about his skill.
Again, I wasn't even talking about putting them in there, but about mentioning them in cbnc.
Another example woulda been where violet went something like 8-2 a few months ago and wasn't mentioned there either. (Granted he's been disappointing as of lately but back then it was still a bit disappointing to not at least see him in CBNC)
Also I dont get what you mean by losing to jangbi speaks volumes about his skill:
+ Show Spoiler +
his last 14 games.. how many Tosses nowadays have better vZ stats than that?
+ Show Spoiler +That being said I'll happily admit that I dont know much about roro's skill at all
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edit that link please 7mk, it screws up the layout
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France2061 Posts
Nice PR! I do support the Where's Roro? movement. He went 6-1 in PL in May, 8-3 in Round 4, and if you look at heyoka's glorious pie charts in this week's writeup, even with teammates like Baby, Midas and Shine he's produced the most wins for Wemade over the season. Overlooking him is understandable since he's basically the Zerg equivalent of Light -- Invisible Zerg -- but he should at the very least make CNBC next month if he keeps it up.
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On June 04 2010 09:24 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 08:02 Trezeguet23 wrote:On June 03 2010 10:55 o[twist] wrote:
baby is favored against almost everybody in broodwar right now. maybe all of the top 3, maybe skyhigh, maybe a couple tosses with PvT specialties. he looked absolutely stellar in games like the ones against great, hyun, and kal. He is not favored against any of the top 3. I think he meant "everyone but the top 3, SkyHigh or the top PvT specialists." BTW, anyone else starting to watch out for this kid Classic? Kid wins an awful lot.
The knock on him was that he was just endlessly stomping bad or mediocre players.
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On June 05 2010 17:40 StylishVODs wrote:
It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks.
Flash is the most dominating progamer ever during this last year.
You can easily compare resluts and find out for yourself.
2 consecutive finals both leagues. But seriously, floating above 2400 ELO for months and months is crazy.
While he's been on avarage 80% total during this year, the old bonjwas never came close except maybe oov with far less games played.
Doesn't really need to be discussed..
That's a very misleading argument.
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On June 06 2010 00:17 Trezeguet23 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:24 Mortality wrote:On June 04 2010 08:02 Trezeguet23 wrote:On June 03 2010 10:55 o[twist] wrote:
baby is favored against almost everybody in broodwar right now. maybe all of the top 3, maybe skyhigh, maybe a couple tosses with PvT specialties. he looked absolutely stellar in games like the ones against great, hyun, and kal. He is not favored against any of the top 3. I think he meant "everyone but the top 3, SkyHigh or the top PvT specialists." BTW, anyone else starting to watch out for this kid Classic? Kid wins an awful lot. The knock on him was that he was just endlessly stomping bad or mediocre players.
You mean Classic? Yeah, but that's all he's been playing against. Still worth watching to see if he pans out.
If you go back to last month's discussions where I said what I thought the PR would be this month, I'm pretty sure I didn't mention Classic -- exactly for the reason you gave.
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I am starting to think any protoss who has won 3+ PvZs in a month earns a PR spot...
Really, the only way for protoss to win is hoping that the zerg screws up.
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On June 06 2010 00:41 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 17:40 StylishVODs wrote:
It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks.
Flash is the most dominating progamer ever during this last year.
You can easily compare resluts and find out for yourself.
2 consecutive finals both leagues. But seriously, floating above 2400 ELO for months and months is crazy.
While he's been on avarage 80% total during this year, the old bonjwas never came close except maybe oov with far less games played.
Doesn't really need to be discussed.. That's a very misleading argument.
My point is, Flash's winratio + elo+ records and starleague appearances in recent times is unheard of. And now they say the bonjwa talk is over. During this period of dominance.
I don't see whats so misleading about this. Some people think bonjwas in the old days won everything. They didn't.
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On June 06 2010 02:16 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2010 00:41 Mortality wrote:On June 05 2010 17:40 StylishVODs wrote:
It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks.
Flash is the most dominating progamer ever during this last year.
You can easily compare resluts and find out for yourself.
2 consecutive finals both leagues. But seriously, floating above 2400 ELO for months and months is crazy.
While he's been on avarage 80% total during this year, the old bonjwas never came close except maybe oov with far less games played.
Doesn't really need to be discussed.. That's a very misleading argument. My point is, Flash's winratio + elo+ records and starleague appearances in recent times is unheard of. And now they say the bonjwa talk is over. During this period of dominance. I don't see whats so misleading about this. Some people think bonjwas in the old days won everything. They didn't.
furthermore, most of the past bonjwas were declared so post hoc, so the fact that discussion is dying down about whether flash is bonjwa is worse than moot, it's stupid.
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are you people still talking about flash/bonjwa/whatever? RORO went 6-1 in proleague last month, 4-0'd his msl prelims group, then 2-0'd his way through survivor. cant believe this guy is under scrubs like fantasy and shine
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On June 05 2010 17:40 StylishVODs wrote:
It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks.
I've never seen someone post this much about something he doesn't care about.
Yeah seriously this is getting silly.
Some people are so focused on not giving him that name that any loss will do. One loss and you're out.
I bet they weren't even there to witness players like savior and iloveoov but rather just heard stories about them.
Bonjwa talk being over is bullshit. He's in the middle of his time where he might be crowned right now.
4 finals in a row, 4000+ kespa, floating on 2400 ELO, defeated his greatest rival 3-0 in the finals, 70% all matchups and roughly 80% all matchups since his domination started a year ago - And now some say his bonjwa run is over? After this, seriously?
I'm not saying he is Bonjwa, I don't know how you define it anymore since he's not named. However if you're going to give one justified reason as to why he shouldn't be Bonjwa it should be that his time of domination has only been a year.
people people people.
People are stupid
He makes both finals again and lose one 2-3 and the talk is over.
Not that I care since there is no logic whatsoever in the discussion. It seems bonjwa is more a nostalgia for those who watched in the old days.
I watched then too and there was no one more dominating than flash. They made finals consistantly but almost never dual finals and specially never dual finals in a row. Flash has been in all finals for 4 starleagues in a row now, I guess thats not enough... oh well.
If they had those standards consistantly there wouldn't be any bonjwa in the first place.
It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks.
Flash is the most dominating progamer ever during this last year.
You can easily compare resluts and find out for yourself.
2 consecutive finals both leagues. But seriously, floating above 2400 ELO for months and months is crazy.
While he's been on avarage 80% total during this year, the old bonjwas never came close except maybe oov with far less games played.
Doesn't really need to be discussed..
My point is, Flash's winratio + elo+ records and starleague appearances in recent times is unheard of. And now they say the bonjwa talk is over. During this period of dominance.
I don't see whats so misleading about this. Some people think bonjwas in the old days won everything. They didn't.
Ofc, I could have made this list 1232353462372312 times longer... I don't think you are adressing the key points though. The only reason I can see to refuse him the title is : 1) short dominance (one year) 2) too few titles. I think Flash is bonjwa, in the original sens.. but it would only be faire to give him the title if people admitted that JD was a bonjwa too. But it is not up to us to chose anyway. And the discussion is ridicules imo.
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Elroi, I wrote all those post in reply to different posts.
Not like I wrote them in a row.. am I not allowed to give my pov? :O
And in the end I don't really care if other people call him bonjwa or not but I like discussing about it...
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On June 06 2010 03:02 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 17:40 StylishVODs wrote:
It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks.
I've never seen someone post this much about something he doesn't care about. + Show Spoiler +
Yeah seriously this is getting silly.
Some people are so focused on not giving him that name that any loss will do. One loss and you're out.
I bet they weren't even there to witness players like savior and iloveoov but rather just heard stories about them.
Bonjwa talk being over is bullshit. He's in the middle of his time where he might be crowned right now.
4 finals in a row, 4000+ kespa, floating on 2400 ELO, defeated his greatest rival 3-0 in the finals, 70% all matchups and roughly 80% all matchups since his domination started a year ago - And now some say his bonjwa run is over? After this, seriously?
I'm not saying he is Bonjwa, I don't know how you define it anymore since he's not named. However if you're going to give one justified reason as to why he shouldn't be Bonjwa it should be that his time of domination has only been a year.
people people people.
People are stupid
He makes both finals again and lose one 2-3 and the talk is over.
Not that I care since there is no logic whatsoever in the discussion. It seems bonjwa is more a nostalgia for those who watched in the old days.
I watched then too and there was no one more dominating than flash. They made finals consistantly but almost never dual finals and specially never dual finals in a row. Flash has been in all finals for 4 starleagues in a row now, I guess thats not enough... oh well.
If they had those standards consistantly there wouldn't be any bonjwa in the first place.
It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks.
Flash is the most dominating progamer ever during this last year.
You can easily compare resluts and find out for yourself.
2 consecutive finals both leagues. But seriously, floating above 2400 ELO for months and months is crazy.
While he's been on avarage 80% total during this year, the old bonjwas never came close except maybe oov with far less games played.
Doesn't really need to be discussed..
My point is, Flash's winratio + elo+ records and starleague appearances in recent times is unheard of. And now they say the bonjwa talk is over. During this period of dominance.
I don't see whats so misleading about this. Some people think bonjwas in the old days won everything. They didn't.
Ofc, I could have made this list 1232353462372312 times longer... I don't think you are adressing the key points though. The only reason I can see to refuse him the title is : 1) short dominance (one year) 2) too few titles. I think Flash is bonjwa, in the original sens.. but it would only be faire to give him the title if people admitted that JD was a bonjwa too. But it is not up to us to chose anyway. And the discussion is ridicules imo.
I find the current discussion pointless. Flash isn't a bonjwa yet, however he is extraordinarily close. This next season will answer the question once and for all. People should just wait and see what happens.
Also Jaedong was never a bonjwa, though I'm not surprised you think he was.
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I would have put Jeadong above Effort
His results besides the games against Flash are more impressive in my opinion.
Effort was the rookie of the year and still has his moments, but he can't compete with the #1 Zerg who has proven us he still got it!
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i mean if flash makes dual finals again, obviously bonjwa or past bonjwa level in my view
if he wins a final again, pretty much same thing
if he stays above 2400, stays above 70% in all matchups, etc., probably bonjwa
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Flash is more dominant than any bonjwa before him and he's more successful in starleagues than BoxeR and has broken every record not related to titles pretty much
That's the only thing separating him from the other bonjwa's. Obviously the most important thing in this "bonjwa debate" is what people consider him to be. It isn't a title with objective standards that one earns, because if it was, Flash would be more qualified than any player than history in my opinion.
Fans now have much higher standards. People point at sAviOr's "dominance" as being this untouchable thing, but Flash has clearly surpassed that and some. His statistical dominance and win rate is so far above anyone elses that it isn't even arguable on a numerical level that anyone was ever more dominant than Flash is now. Has he been consistently great his whole career? Qualifying for every OSL since his debut as a progamer, winning the OSL at 15 while simultaneously revolutionizing TvP and continuing to be among the top 2 terrans since his run in 2008 is what I call pretty consistent. In fact, there is little question in my mind that Flash has been the #1 terran SINCE his OSL run in Bacchus 08, despite Fantasy's brief period of more success.
The only thing anyone has over Flash is starleague title numbers, and that's it. If you ask me, 4 medals in 2 seasons along with a record breaking and revolutionary starleague win at the age of 15 is a pretty damn impressive rep sheet.
I'm not arguing for Flash being bonjwa, that's up for the fanbase at large in Korea to decide. If he gets his golden mouse this upcoming season, you'd be absolutely delusional to think he lacks anything the other four bonjwas had. For the most part, he already has, which proves that there is no objective standard that puts one into the status of bonjwa.
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On June 06 2010 02:16 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2010 00:41 Mortality wrote:On June 05 2010 17:40 StylishVODs wrote:
It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks.
Flash is the most dominating progamer ever during this last year.
You can easily compare resluts and find out for yourself.
2 consecutive finals both leagues. But seriously, floating above 2400 ELO for months and months is crazy.
While he's been on avarage 80% total during this year, the old bonjwas never came close except maybe oov with far less games played.
Doesn't really need to be discussed.. That's a very misleading argument. My point is, Flash's winratio + elo+ records and starleague appearances in recent times is unheard of. And now they say the bonjwa talk is over. During this period of dominance. I don't see whats so misleading about this. Some people think bonjwas in the old days won everything. They didn't.
I don't think the bonjwa talk is over and I think that Flash's performance was very much what I would expect of a bonjwa. But this talk of Flash being most dominant ever is very, very misleading.
Flash's win ratio actually isn't unheard of. As you yourself admitted, Oov's was similar. Furthermore, Flash's win ratio is bolstered by >80% wins in proleague in the past 12 months (compared to 75-76% wins in individual league). There was a time when Savior was winning 73ish% of his individual league games and 80% of his proleague games, which isn't really outside of statistical error, and may even be compared favorably when you take into account the maps. (Yes, I know that Flash's strategy on Katrina makes up for this, but the point is that Savior was fighting that uphill battle when his win rates were at their best, while current maps have been fine for Terran.)
In other words, Flash's win ratio is comparable. Not really better or worse. It's what I'd expect from a bonjwa candidate.
For Boxer and NaDa the stats were lower, true, but they were only playing individual league games. I would also point out that at the time, their win records were unheard of. As far as I know, NaDa is actually the first player in history to achieve better than 70% win rates in all three matches at the same time over any extended length of time (read as: years).
I have two points to make about this:
1.) The deeper you get into individual leagues, the higher the chances that you will play one of your toughest opponents. This is where top players are most likely to drop games.
2.) As Starcraft becomes better and better understood, builds become more and more streamlined and it becomes easier and easier for top players to spot cheese. If you look at the very top player of each race from any given time period, their win rates have been increasing a tiny bit over time. This is because the chance that you will be hit with something you're completely unprepared to deal with has decreased. Build order losses still exist of course, but the very nature of what defines a build order loss has changed.
Now, regarding ELO, you answered that yourself: Flash plays more games. Add in the fact that ELO has inflated a little over time. Add in the fact that, unlike the past bonjwas, Flash already had a very high ELO when he entered his current dominance.
Bottom line: it takes a number of games for ELO to "converge" up (OR down, assuming a player has lost skill) to what it should be. I'm using the term converge loosely since this process is random, not deterministic, but the point remains.
Of course your original argument also mentioned that Flash's results are special because he wins so often while playing more games. But I would cite point (2) I made above combined with the fact that the opponents most capable of beating Flash (Effort, Jaedong, Leta, etc.) also have similarly busy proleague schedules to say this: since styles of game play have on the whole converged to certain "standard" styles, for the most part Flash only needs to focus on overcoming those standard styles, rather than focusing on beating each player he faces individually. Only for his chief competitors does he particularly need to focus on them as individuals.
Actually, I would use this argument to make a point in Flash's favor: I don't regard TvZ as Flash's weak point. The reason why his TvZ always seems behind his TvT and TvP is because there is less convergence in that match-up to a set standard. Zergs these days have experimented a lot with different timings and a lot of strategies that had gone obsolete (like 9 pool) are now back in the mainstream.
Back-to-back dual finals is a first I believe, yes, but it's not like the other bonjwas haven't set similar records. NaDa won 4 golds in 3 seasons, gold grand slamming with a GhemTV SL victory as well, and ultimately made 10 OSL/MSL finals appearances. Oov has a perfect undefeated record in Starleague finals. Savior appeared in 5 MSL finals in a row.
Again, I would expect a bonjwa to do something spectacular like this.
Conclusions:
1.) Flash is definitely walking the bonjwa road. The achievements next to his name are very similar to what our past bonjwas have done.
2.) He hasn't surpassed the title, as his fans like to believe. I'm tempted to say he's earned it, but as has been said repeatedly for years now: if there's any debate, then it hasn't been earned.
3.) A point I have made repeatedly: the most important criteria for judging bonjwa worthiness is performance and records against S-class opponents. This is where Flash lost momentum, but I don't think he should be discarded from the running -- that's silly.
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How is Flash not doing awesomely against S-class opponents in your opinion? Since his reign as the clear #1 on the scene began in October he's 7-3 against JD (the second best player out there) and I can't think of anyone who's been Top 5 during this period who has a good record vs him.
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Yeah I agree with alot of what you're saying, but arguing that it's easier to spot cheese nowadays can also lead to the conclusion that player are generally better now aswell. Comparing games like that from now and in the past is thus very hard to do.
Same as the argument for only being in induvidual leagues gives the better player (in this case the bonjwas) more time to practice for each game to play to their full potential.
between 09-05-20 and 10-05-20 Flash a had a total record of 80.6%. 129 wins - 31 losses .
There has been one bonjwa close to this record, iloveoov with about 79% winratio . 72 wins - 19 losses.
And iloveoov was the most dominant of the bonjwas in terms of winratio. If you compare to Savior for example who during his most dominant year was 76.19% with 48 - 15 losses.
So if you put this together with him making dual finals twice and being the youngest player ever to achieve that and such a dominating year of starcraft, it's not hard to see why I react when people say the debate is now over.
Maybe I overreacted abit, but he only lacks in titles so far.
In all other ways he has actually surpassed, although not so much over iloveoovs crazy 2003-04, other bonjwas.
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EPT
