EPT
Power Rank 05/31/2010 - Page 12
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
On June 06 2010 06:11 Holgerius wrote: Indeed. If Flash gets 2-3 more titles he'll be the GOAT. nope, that title is forever Nada's | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Flash made a name for himself by dominating s-class players and he has come back showing that he is a good cut above the rest. Jaedong is sitting on the edge of Flash's universe. | ||
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okum
France5779 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
But the SC fanbase on the whole seems a little less convinced. His 4 losses to Effort and last season's loss to Jaedong seem to stand out against him in the eyes of many fans. By comparison, NaDa did not lose a bo5 until after he gold grand slammed, and Savior's only two bo5 losses were to Chojja, who eventually had a losing record against Savior by the time Bisu dethroned Savior. Well, another season of Flash's current level of dominance should shut the doubters up. I think he will be crowned. On June 06 2010 06:08 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah I agree with alot of what you're saying, but arguing that it's easier to spot cheese nowadays can also lead to the conclusion that player are generally better now aswell. Comparing games like that from now and in the past is thus very hard to do. In absolute skill, yes, current SC players are better. But don't forget that the knowledge we have of SC today had to be figured out by someone originally. The current level of skill among progamers rests on the backs of those who came before them. Same as the argument for only being in induvidual leagues gives the better player (in this case the bonjwas) more time to practice for each game to play to their full potential. But this is the misconception I want to point out: When Flash faces Effort in an bo5, he's also facing someone burdened with a heavy Proleague schedule. Since the burden is similar, it should not be considered. And yes, Flash did have a busier schedule, but that was because he was running deep into two leagues at the same time, which has been done before in the past by the bonjwas. between 09-05-20 and 10-05-20 Flash a had a total record of 80.6%. 129 wins - 31 losses . There has been one bonjwa close to this record, iloveoov with about 79% winratio . 72 wins - 19 losses. Statistically, this difference in win rates is not very significant. 72-19 is 79.1%, 72-18 is already 80%. At that point the win percentages are so high and the games are so few in number that 1-2 games difference can mean a lot. And iloveoov was the most dominant of the bonjwas in terms of winratio. If you compare to Savior for example who during his most dominant year was 76.19% with 48 - 15 losses. Yes, this is true, but again, raw win rates is not the only thing to consider in these kinds of arguments. Maps, opponents, etc., all matter a lot as well. So if you put this together with him making dual finals twice and being the youngest player ever to achieve that and such a dominating year of starcraft, it's not hard to see why I react when people say the debate is now over. NaDa was of similar age when he gold grand slammed. He had just turned 18 when he won both OSL and MSL in the same season. In fact, even if Flash wins both OSL and MSL next season, he will not be the youngest player to have won both leagues at the same time. Maybe I overreacted abit, but he only lacks in titles so far. In all other ways he has actually surpassed, although not so much over iloveoovs crazy 2003-04, other bonjwas. He hasn't really surpassed them, is my point. He's playing on par with them. He has the highest peak 1-year win percentage, sure, but not by that much, and his bo5 record is worse than any of them except for maybe Boxer. Flash looks bonjwa like, but most dominant ever? I wouldn't go that far. Check it: One of the things about bonjwas is that it's not really possible to call any one of them "most dominant." As I said earlier, they each have left their own stamps. Boxer is behind the others in titles and win percentages, but in the history of Starcraft nobody has had a greater impact on the game. NaDa is our only gold grand slammer, and the youngest ever winner of both leagues simultaneously, as well as the only player to have managed to rise to the top during the reigns of the other bonjwas. Oov was, until now, the player with greatest win percentage ever. And his active manipulations of the metagame brought an entirely new dynamic to Starcraft. He was completely undefeated in Starleague finals. Savior had the bo5 accomplishments and dominance over S-class players that nobody thought possible, bringing Zerg out of its dark age and ultimately overcoming some horribly imbalanced maps. Oov, NaDa, Boxer, Midas, Casy, Hwasin and Iris all fell to him in bo5's -- with the possible exception of Iris, I would rate all of those players among the top 10 all time TvZers. Nal_Ra and Reach fell as well. Chojja too. The most difficult list of opponents overcome. So you see? It's not "wow look, highest win percentage, most dominant, debate over and done!" It's more like: pick your poison. Either way? The enemy is fucked. Now Flash has come onto the scene, reversing the balance of TvP, standing out as the star Terran when for the first time ever Terran is not the most dominant, surpassing Oov's record win percentage. This is the road to bonjwa. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
It's really shitty to hold Flash up and say "Well NaDa did this and he was bonjwa so if Flash can he isn't and never will be until he does." We live in a very different time when it is much harder to dominate on that level. Flash has proven us wrong and dominated as hard as the bonjwas of the past during a time in which players are better, competition is fiercer, and schedules are more packed than they have ever been in BroodWar history. Then he loses one out of two finals and everyone shits on him? Unbelievable. | ||
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
i did some calculations last year and the ELO points had only inflated in the system approximately 27 points per player. If you include the points entering the system since then which is likely no more than 10... and you subtract them from Flash's ELO peak he is still BY FAR the most dominant player ever. Regarding the lower win rates of the past bonjwa's: Yes, the older players had it easier because they had less games (no proleague or less proleague), but they also had to play harder opponents more often as they advanced further in leagues. While you can debate the merits of this I personally have always seen these to cancel out for the most part. Yes, you're playing harder opponents but you have more practice time. The fact that Flash can keep up 80% WHILE playing proleague and dual leaguing simultaneously should not be dismissed as he gets "easy" proleague games to pad his stats. He is that damn good. FWIW Flash is playing at the "level" of bonjwa -- maybe even better than some of the past bonjwas. The only difference (IMO) is that he's not really the undisputed king with JD kind of hanging around still grabbing titles + the fact that JD still has more titles than him. If Flash can win at least 1 league next season and keep JD from winning one (either by getting help from someone or by defeating him himself) then I would definitely be open to adding him to the list. Fact is that 2 golds, and 2 silvers in 2 starleague seasons is AMAZING in itself, and his stats are already that of bonjwa level except a bit above over that period of time for MORE games than the previous bonjwas. Thus, you could make the argument now. I will choose to hold off for now on that though. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On June 06 2010 07:37 Mortality wrote: NaDa was of similar age when he gold grand slammed. He had just turned 18 when he won both OSL and MSL in the same season. In fact, even if Flash wins both OSL and MSL next season, he will not be the youngest player to have won both leagues at the same time. Really? Nada was 18 years and about three months old when he won his OSL. Flash's birthday, when he turns 18, is next month. Are the finals in four months? I'm not sure of the exact dates but it seems like Flash'll be a little younger if he does do it. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On June 06 2010 07:37 Mortality wrote: He hasn't really surpassed them, is my point. He's playing on par with them. He has the highest peak 1-year win percentage, sure, but not by that much, and his bo5 record is worse than any of them except for maybe Boxer. Arguably, this is because Flash is *playing* more Bo5s than any of them, and the biggest indicator of that is consecutive double finals. Remember how long it took for Savior to actually qualify for the OSL (even though he did win when he finally qualified)? You can't lose Bo5s that you aren't playing. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On June 06 2010 07:51 DoctorHelvetica wrote: NaDa wasn't of similar age he was 3 years older which is a HUGE HUGE difference in StarCraft. NaDa had just turned 18 when he gold grand slammed. Flash is about to turn 18 on July 5th. People also seem to be ignoring how much easier it was to win titles back then, I'm sure the players who won Starleagues back then would be thrilled to know how "easy" it was. Is that why Boxer has more 2nd place finishes than 1st? Is that why Yellow never won a Starleague? I hope you're not trying to imply that they are crappy players who don't compare to the top players of today...? considering the ease of their schedules and the time they had to practice for each game. Except that your opponents also have that same luxury of taking that same amount of time to prepare. And today, top players all have busy Proleague schedules. So long as it's the same for all the top players, it doesn't really matter. Winning two SL's months apart is a joke compared to weeks apart. Is it? Metagame can change quickly and in today's Starcraft you are battling metagame trends more so than players as individuals. Truly, dual finals is impressive by any standards, but back-to-back championships is not a "joke" compared to ANY feat ever achieved in the history of Starcraft. It's really shitty to hold Flash up and say "Well NaDa did this and he was bonjwa so if Flash can he isn't and never will be until he does." Never said that. Again, don't put words into my mouth. That's the second time you've done it in as many posts. We live in a very different time when it is much harder to dominate on that level. Flash has proven us wrong and dominated as hard as the bonjwas of the past during a time in which players are better, competition is fiercer, and schedules are more packed than they have ever been in BroodWar history. Then he loses one out of two finals and everyone shits on him? Unbelievable. You're conveniently ignoring the fact that Broodwar metagame has also changed substantially. In comparison to today, strategies in the past were very directionless. Those strategies acquired direction through the tireless efforts of our favorite heroes, past and present. If Starcraft is so much harder to dominate today, then why do Bisu, Jaedong and Flash account for the vast majority of titles since the fall of Savior? Toss in Stork and Jangbi and now you have a list of the vast majority of people who have made finals appearances. You've conveniently chosen to ignore that while yes, what separates a winner from a loser has decreased, metagaming has evolved so that the better player is more likely to win than ever before in the past. This counter-balances the increased competition. Also, how so am I shitting on him when I have repeatedly said that I think he's walking the bonjwa road and that I believe he probably deserves the title for all that he's done so far? | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On June 06 2010 08:43 eshlow wrote: Note: i did some calculations last year and the ELO points had only inflated in the system approximately 27 points per player. Did I not say that there other reasons as well besides ELO inflation as well? Maybe something having to do with more games played? Maybe something to do with Flash already having a high ELO rating when he entered peak form? Maybe, just maybe, combining these factors has helped Flash secure such a high rating? Truly Flash's ELO peak is spectacular, but it's not as compelling in the argument of "most dominant ever" as you want it to be. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On June 06 2010 09:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: Really? Nada was 18 years and about three months old when he won his OSL. Flash's birthday, when he turns 18, is next month. Are the finals in four months? I'm not sure of the exact dates but it seems like Flash'll be a little younger if he does do it. There's usually about a 1-2 week gap between OSL offline prelims and the actual OSL. Then OSL runs for about 3 and a half months. It will come down to a matter of days, but I think NaDa will hold that title. We'll have to see the schedule when it comes out to be sure. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On June 06 2010 07:37 Mortality wrote: He hasn't really surpassed them, is my point. He's playing on par with them. He has the highest peak 1-year win percentage, sure, but not by that much, and his bo5 record is worse than any of them except for maybe Boxer. Flash looks bonjwa like, but most dominant ever? I wouldn't go that far. Check it: One of the things about bonjwas is that it's not really possible to call any one of them "most dominant." As I said earlier, they each have left their own stamps. Boxer is behind the others in titles and win percentages, but in the history of Starcraft nobody has had a greater impact on the game. NaDa is our only gold grand slammer, and the youngest ever winner of both leagues simultaneously, as well as the only player to have managed to rise to the top during the reigns of the other bonjwas. Oov was, until now, the player with greatest win percentage ever. And his active manipulations of the metagame brought an entirely new dynamic to Starcraft. He was completely undefeated in Starleague finals. Savior had the bo5 accomplishments and dominance over S-class players that nobody thought possible, bringing Zerg out of its dark age and ultimately overcoming some horribly imbalanced maps. Oov, NaDa, Boxer, Midas, Casy, Hwasin and Iris all fell to him in bo5's -- with the possible exception of Iris, I would rate all of those players among the top 10 all time TvZers. Nal_Ra and Reach fell as well. Chojja too. The most difficult list of opponents overcome. So you see? It's not "wow look, highest win percentage, most dominant, debate over and done!" It's more like: pick your poison. Either way? The enemy is fucked. Now Flash has come onto the scene, reversing the balance of TvP, standing out as the star Terran when for the first time ever Terran is not the most dominant, surpassing Oov's record win percentage. This is the road to bonjwa. Youngest player to win leagues simultaneously? Hes the ONLY player to win both leagues at the same time. That makes him the youngest, oldest, sexiest, ugliest, and most asian to win both star leagues simultaneously. | ||
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o[twist]
United States4903 Posts
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p14c
Vatican City State431 Posts
 3-0 Effort, 3-0 Jaedong that would have been quite an achievement.. | ||
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
On June 06 2010 14:53 o[twist] wrote: i know it's early, but nobody on this power rank is playing well Effort is 2-1 (greedy zergs getting punished never look well); Flash 1-1(Hiya just played better), JD 1-0 (looked really shaky vs Stats ), Baby 0-0 (cant rate), Snow 1-1 (against zergs, mind you)I dont really see how you can say that. | ||
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revy
United States1524 Posts
As for Flash, 1 more title in my eyes and I'm ready to grant him the title (because as everyone knows only the opinion of a white US resident matters in such affairs). Anyone who looks down on his SL losses just isn't being reasonable. Flash has played 10 BO5's in the last 2 seasons and is 8-2. Further he's done it while dragging a middle of the road team into first place. Since the beginning of his reign he has redefined TvZ and TvP while maintaining a strong TvT. His 2 BO5 losses are very apparent because they happened in finals, but compare that to previous Bonjwa's who generally lost before the finals. As for the JD must be gone for Flash to be Bonjwa argument I think it's rubbish as well. Boxer, Nada, and Oov were all around at near the same time. Make the argument that Boxer and Nada's reigns were technically earlier all you want they all still made SL finals at the same time. The scene can tolerate multiple Bonjwa's at the same time, the fact that JD is still good therefore Flash cannot be Bonjwa has no basis. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 06 2010 14:53 o[twist] wrote: i know it's early, but nobody on this power rank is playing well Top 7 are fine. Lower 3 were much less solid that the top 7 so I'm not surprised in the least. | ||
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On June 06 2010 12:45 Mortality wrote: Did I not say that there other reasons as well besides ELO inflation as well? Maybe something having to do with more games played? Maybe something to do with Flash already having a high ELO rating when he entered peak form? Maybe, just maybe, combining these factors has helped Flash secure such a high rating? Truly Flash's ELO peak is spectacular, but it's not as compelling in the argument of "most dominant ever" as you want it to be. I don't buy it if that's your reasoning. He was playing much better than the former people did before they were dominant, so how is that a mark against his high ELO rating? It just means he was consistently good before be because insanely dominant. If anything that's a plus. Again, more games? That means less practice time. There's always the trade off between playing more games with more preparation vs. playing less games with less preparation. While they are incomparable there are pros and cons to each -- not just pros to playing more games. | ||
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