CBNC: free - I really wanted to put you in this ranking, I really did. But unfortunately those losses to Flash were REALLY brutal and it clearly had an impact on your psychological game. Here's hoping you pick up your play in June Calm - I was tempted to put you in ahead of Shine, but you just kinda fizzled out towards the end of the month. Why is it that the moment I start thinking you've regained your form you just crumble Hyuk - you've been playing well, I want to see more before you get to the ranking though Stats - as with Hyuk, you've been playing well, but I want to see more before you get to the ranking.
I like how flash get's a negative remark in him loosing more than usual. When he goes 18-6 for 75% winning. Just goes to show how dominating he has been.
Snow is way way way way way way way way to high. Theres just something about a Protoss who can only (ONLY) PvT and nothing else that annoys me. Kinda like watching a TvZ only Terran (COUGH RUBY MASSIVE BELOW 30% TVP COUGH). If you watch Snow's games against zerg, their horrible. Look at the list of shitty zergs hes lost to. Of course its too late to determine if hes going to end up being a 1 matchup player but right now it sure as hell looks like it and until he doesn't suck massively vs zerg I don't think he deserves to be that high. Losing games to Hyuk (twice) and Roro but beating players like Really and Flash convincingly indicates a massive skill difference between PvZ and PvT
Also, I'd still put Jaedong in front of effort simply cause Jaedong has been on fire this month and Effort really hasn't beaten great people (other than flash but I refuse to count a failed BBS and a failed 14CC as wins displaying skill).
I found this the best PR in a long time (even though as a JD fan it makes me want to cry to see him as #3!!). You have to admire that Plexa did this so dispasionnatly after all (effort doesn't suck lol). I still think that Effort could be #1 this month because of his 4-2 record against Flash (it is after all a monthly ranking), but I'm fine with Flash to ofc. Sadly I too think JD really have to take a break or go on a vacation or something and come back when protoss can beat terran again...
Though I'm fine with Effort as #2, I'm not so sure about the assessment that Jaedong "needs to take a trip to Thailand". Apart from one bad day, Jaedong has been destroying left and right. For the most part, his games have been amazing. Take the Bo5 against Calm for example -- no one expected Calm to reach the final, and it was the most natural thing in the world when Jaedong delivered.
What Jaedong needs is a team that doesn't consistently make his efforts in Proleague meaningless.
Well, even though jaedong has been destroying, his uninspired play in the msl and physical demeanor tells me something's wrong; yesterday i was showing the msl finals vods to a friend, and the first thing he realized was "jaedong looks starved". Seriously, I think he needs a break.
On May 31 2010 23:57 Elroi wrote: I found this the best PR in a long time (even though as a JD fan it makes me want to cry to see him as #3!!). You have to admire that Plexa did this so dispasionnatly after all (effort doesn't suck lol). I still think that Effort could be #1 this month because of his 4-2 record against Flash (it is after all a monthly ranking), but I'm fine with Flash to ofc. Sadly I too think JD really have to take a break or go on a vacation or something and come back when protoss can beat terran again...
It's not a "monthly ranking", it's a Power Rank that's released monthly. That difference is what keeps Flash #1. He is, as most people would agree, the more powerful player this month.
Nice PR on time! I would rather see Jaedong as #2 but I'm fine with effort being there because he got results afterall. I still believe Jaedong is the stronger player.
Congratz to Flash being #1 PR for 8 consecutive months!!
I think Snow is so high because he's a Protoss player showing promise in an era of Z>>P and T>P. Kal, by contrast, is a known quantity: solid, but reliably never the best.
I don't mind Snow being at #5 to be honest, he has been playing great lately and he has beaten several top players. It seemed a little high at first, but I can't honestly say anyone else deserves that spot more. I'm also happy that Shuttle is finally making an appearance, he's fucking awesome. It's time for some new Protoss stars to rise to power, now that both Stork and Bisu are failing. Go Snow and Stats!
Yay for Flash being #1 once again (which was totally expected)! What is the record streak as #1? He should be getting close now.
And get Fantasy off the PR, I haven't seen anything that makes me think that he deserves that spot.
On June 01 2010 00:58 Holgerius wrote: I don't mind Snow being at #5 to be honest, he has been playing great lately and he has beaten several top players. It seemed a little high at first, but I can't honestly say anyone else deserves that spot more. I'm also happy that Shuttle is finally making an appearance, he's fucking awesome. It's time for some new Protoss stars to rise to power, now that both Stork and Bisu are failing. Go Snow and Stats!
Yay for Flash being #1 once again (which was totally expected)! What is the record streak as #1? He should be getting close now.
And get Fantasy off the PR, I haven't seen anything that makes me think that he deserves that spot.
On June 01 2010 00:58 Holgerius wrote: I don't mind Snow being at #5 to be honest, he has been playing great lately and he has beaten several top players. It seemed a little high at first, but I can't honestly say anyone else deserves that spot more. I'm also happy that Shuttle is finally making an appearance, he's fucking awesome. It's time for some new Protoss stars to rise to power, now that both Stork and Bisu are failing. Go Snow and Stats!
Yay for Flash being #1 once again (which was totally expected)! What is the record streak as #1? He should be getting close now.
And get Fantasy off the PR, I haven't seen anything that makes me think that he deserves that spot.
It's Bisu with 8. I was surprised when I counted it lol.
On June 01 2010 00:58 Holgerius wrote: I don't mind Snow being at #5 to be honest, he has been playing great lately and he has beaten several top players. It seemed a little high at first, but I can't honestly say anyone else deserves that spot more. I'm also happy that Shuttle is finally making an appearance, he's fucking awesome. It's time for some new Protoss stars to rise to power, now that both Stork and Bisu are failing. Go Snow and Stats!
Yay for Flash being #1 once again (which was totally expected)! What is the record streak as #1? He should be getting close now.
And get Fantasy off the PR, I haven't seen anything that makes me think that he deserves that spot.
It's Bisu with 8. I was surprised when I counted it lol.
On June 01 2010 00:58 Holgerius wrote: I don't mind Snow being at #5 to be honest, he has been playing great lately and he has beaten several top players. It seemed a little high at first, but I can't honestly say anyone else deserves that spot more. I'm also happy that Shuttle is finally making an appearance, he's fucking awesome. It's time for some new Protoss stars to rise to power, now that both Stork and Bisu are failing. Go Snow and Stats!
Yay for Flash being #1 once again (which was totally expected)! What is the record streak as #1? He should be getting close now.
And get Fantasy off the PR, I haven't seen anything that makes me think that he deserves that spot.
It's Bisu with 8. I was surprised when I counted it lol.
The PR started shortly before Bisu replaced Savior as the dominant figure, which gave Bisu time to be dominant until Jaedong and Flash emerged as a ridiculous force. After that, there were always at least two of Taek-Bang-Lee-Sang raping up the scene, which makes it fuckhard to be the leader every month for a streak.
I don't quite understand the PR. Is it purely based on the performance/results in that month, or is it based on who appears to be the best players from 1-10 by the end of the month? If it's former, I can understand Effort taking second place since he did win a starleague after all (but then that would make a lot of past PRs fairly inaccurate). If it's the latter, I really don't agree with placing Effort over Jaedong. Just based on their actual games (and putting that into context with their overall history), Jaedong is still a much better player than Effort. Forget the fact that he clearly has the best ZvZ and ZvP, I would consider even his ZvT to be superior to Effort's despite the way the two finals turned out.
i guess i cant argue. effort had a better month than JD (which really comes down to "did better vs flash in the finals of a starleague), but I'm quite confident by next PR JD will be back as top zerg (assuming his team lets him play enough ace matches to do so).
snow is way too high. everything else is okay i guess although #9 and #10 are a little questionable (i'm happy about them, though, as a huge wemade fan)
On June 01 2010 04:56 o[twist] wrote: snow is way too high. everything else is okay i guess although #9 and #10 are a little questionable (i'm happy about them, though, as a huge wemade fan)
The only player who might deserve #5 more is Kal, but he went a horrible 0-2 last night. Problem is while this time we had a very well performing top 4(5) the rest of the players all posted inconsistent results.
So #5 for Snow would be too high in a normal PR when all the good players would play well and get the results we expect them to, but judging by last month's perfomances, Snow deserved his position.
To be honest i'm disappointed with Jaedong . Flash nowadays either cheeses does some wierd mech build with ultra fast CC or 14 CC in TvZ . I think zergs should abuse either 2 hat mutas / lurkers or some pool first opening and be more aggresive . His hidra bust was a good try , but he over comited and from the looks of it either didn't practise a follow-up and just all -in or was frustrated because he was down 0 - 2 and all -ined. I don't mind him being as greedy as Flash at least 1 game .
Effort's preparation impressed me much more . He would have won the first game if they didn't replay it regardless of the valkyrie's death . Because Effort was going for a 4 hatch hidra break after he build 5 mutas and 2- 4 scourge . Flash invested alot of gas in to valkery and goliaths , and probably wouldn't have enough for tanks in time to stop the hidra bust . His greedy build to match Flash on Odd-eye was good . He took the high ground expansion at 9 o'clock first meaning that if Flash scouted his natural and saw no hatchery he could potentially not scout Effort because odd-eye is a fairly big map and 12 hat at natural is more likely and pros normally move their SCV to the next spot after scouting the nat . And he played brilliantly in his other games punishing Flash for every little mistake he made .
On June 01 2010 05:22 raga4ka wrote: To be honest i'm disappointed with Jaedong . Flash nowadays either cheeses does some wierd mech build with ultra fast CC or 14 CC in TvZ . I think zergs should abuse either 2 hat mutas / lurkers or some pool first opening and be more aggresive . His hidra bust was a good try , but he over comited and from the looks of it either didn't practise a follow-up and just all -in or was frustrated because he was down 0 - 2 and all -ined. I don't mind him being as greedy as Flash at least 1 game .
Yeah that's what I've been thinking lately about JD too. His aggressiveness diminished a lot. Gone are the very high aggressive builds JD started his career with. Nowadays he's all about tech rushing.
I think Flash analysed this and decided 14cc wont be a danger to JD.
On June 01 2010 05:22 raga4ka wrote: To be honest i'm disappointed with Jaedong . Flash nowadays either cheeses does some wierd mech build with ultra fast CC or 14 CC in TvZ . I think zergs should abuse either 2 hat mutas / lurkers or some pool first opening and be more aggresive . His hidra bust was a good try , but he over comited and from the looks of it either didn't practise a follow-up and just all -in or was frustrated because he was down 0 - 2 and all -ined. I don't mind him being as greedy as Flash at least 1 game .
Effort's preparation impressed me much more .He would have won the first game if they didn't replay it regardless of the valkyrie's death . Because Effort was going for a 4 hatch hidra break after he build 5 mutas and 2- 4 scourge . Flash invested alot of gas in to valkery and goliaths , and probably wouldn't have enough for tanks in time to stop the hidra bust . His greedy build to match Flash on Odd-eye was good . He took the high ground expansion at 9 o'clock first meaning that if Flash scouted his natural and saw no hatchery he could potentially not scout Effort because odd-eye is a fairly big map and 12 hat at natural is more likely and pros normally move their SCV to the next spot after scouting the nat . And he played brilliantly in his other games punishing Flash for every little mistake he made .
I disagree with almost everything about this post :O
1. Flash only cheese or 14CC or mech or play standard bio or some other unique strat or... well thats about everything terran can do TvZ.
2. Effort preparation wasn't better than jaedongs. The games effort played how he wanted he lost. Efforts win was on the fly desicions that capitalized on Flash's mistakes. It had nothing to do with how he prepared the games. You cannot compare the finals since the maps were different and Flash played way different. This time he scouted earlier when he 14CC'd and he made lingproof walls.
3. And no, you cant say effort would have won the first game. He opened mutalisk vs gol+valk and then switch hydra which flash had scouted. There is no way you can call that game before any units clash.
4. Effort did the same thing jaedong did in the third game. He was down 0-2 and needed a win badly. So he went all in and it worked. Yeah it was well executed but it requires that you opponent fucks up wich you can't really rely on. Had Flash not used all his SCV's to repair the bunker Jaedongs all-in ahd worked too. But this time Flash didn't fuck up.
Sometimes when I go 14CC or rax FE the zerg decides to go all in lings after 12hatch (Mamon, octoberzerg hi!) and sometimes I fuck up my scv micro when he tries to run by. So it works and he feels really good about it but really it was just me fucking up. Next time he tries the same, I've learned from my mistakes and he gets raped. Thats how these things work. The all in ling looks really good when it works, but really it's just a biiig risk and you can count yourself lucky you opponent wasn't blocking correctly if it works.
On June 01 2010 05:22 raga4ka wrote: To be honest i'm disappointed with Jaedong . Flash nowadays either cheeses does some wierd mech build with ultra fast CC or 14 CC in TvZ . I think zergs should abuse either 2 hat mutas / lurkers or some pool first opening and be more aggresive . His hidra bust was a good try , but he over comited and from the looks of it either didn't practise a follow-up and just all -in or was frustrated because he was down 0 - 2 and all -ined. I don't mind him being as greedy as Flash at least 1 game .
Effort's preparation impressed me much more .He would have won the first game if they didn't replay it regardless of the valkyrie's death . Because Effort was going for a 4 hatch hidra break after he build 5 mutas and 2- 4 scourge . Flash invested alot of gas in to valkery and goliaths , and probably wouldn't have enough for tanks in time to stop the hidra bust . His greedy build to match Flash on Odd-eye was good . He took the high ground expansion at 9 o'clock first meaning that if Flash scouted his natural and saw no hatchery he could potentially not scout Effort because odd-eye is a fairly big map and 12 hat at natural is more likely and pros normally move their SCV to the next spot after scouting the nat . And he played brilliantly in his other games punishing Flash for every little mistake he made .
I disagree with almost everything about this post :O
1. Flash only cheese or 14CC or mech or play standard bio or some other unique strat or... well thats about everything terran can do TvZ.
2. Effort preparation wasn't better than jaedongs. The games effort played how he wanted he lost. Efforts win was on the fly desicions that capitalized on Flash's mistakes. It had nothing to do with how he prepared the games. You cannot compare the finals since the maps were different and Flash played way different. This time he scouted earlier when he 14CC'd and he made lingproof walls.
3. And no, you cant say effort would have won the first game. He opened mutalisk vs gol+valk and then switch hydra which flash had scouted. There is no way you can call that game before any units clash.
4. Effort did the same thing jaedong did in the third game. He was down 0-2 and needed a win badly. So he went all in and it worked. Yeah it was well executed but it requires that you opponent fucks up wich you can't really rely on. Had Flash not used all his SCV's to repair the bunker Jaedongs all-in ahd worked too. But this time Flash didn't fuck up.
Sometimes when I go 14CC or rax FE the zerg decides to go all in lings after 12hatch (Mamon, octoberzerg hi!) and sometimes I fuck up my scv micro when he tries to run by. So it works and he feels really good about it but really it was just me fucking up. Next time he tries the same, I've learned from my mistakes and he gets raped. Thats how these things work. The all in ling looks really good when it works, but really it's just a biiig risk and you can count yourself lucky you opponent wasn't blocking correctly if it works.
Regarding 2), game 2 was a horrible loss from Effort yes, got outplayed. But in game 1 he was in a very good position (even without the valk snipes, drone scout was huge and I really would have liked to see what Effort wanted to do with the 4th hatch).
On June 01 2010 05:22 raga4ka wrote: To be honest i'm disappointed with Jaedong . Flash nowadays either cheeses does some wierd mech build with ultra fast CC or 14 CC in TvZ . I think zergs should abuse either 2 hat mutas / lurkers or some pool first opening and be more aggresive . His hidra bust was a good try , but he over comited and from the looks of it either didn't practise a follow-up and just all -in or was frustrated because he was down 0 - 2 and all -ined. I don't mind him being as greedy as Flash at least 1 game .
Effort's preparation impressed me much more .He would have won the first game if they didn't replay it regardless of the valkyrie's death . Because Effort was going for a 4 hatch hidra break after he build 5 mutas and 2- 4 scourge . Flash invested alot of gas in to valkery and goliaths , and probably wouldn't have enough for tanks in time to stop the hidra bust . His greedy build to match Flash on Odd-eye was good . He took the high ground expansion at 9 o'clock first meaning that if Flash scouted his natural and saw no hatchery he could potentially not scout Effort because odd-eye is a fairly big map and 12 hat at natural is more likely and pros normally move their SCV to the next spot after scouting the nat . And he played brilliantly in his other games punishing Flash for every little mistake he made .
I disagree with almost everything about this post :O
1. Flash only cheese or 14CC or mech or play standard bio or some other unique strat or... well thats about everything terran can do TvZ.
2. Effort preparation wasn't better than jaedongs. The games effort played how he wanted he lost. Efforts win was on the fly desicions that capitalized on Flash's mistakes. It had nothing to do with how he prepared the games. You cannot compare the finals since the maps were different and Flash played way different. This time he scouted earlier when he 14CC'd and he made lingproof walls.
3. And no, you cant say effort would have won the first game. He opened mutalisk vs gol+valk and then switch hydra which flash had scouted. There is no way you can call that game before any units clash.
4. Effort did the same thing jaedong did in the third game. He was down 0-2 and needed a win badly. So he went all in and it worked. Yeah it was well executed but it requires that you opponent fucks up wich you can't really rely on. Had Flash not used all his SCV's to repair the bunker Jaedongs all-in ahd worked too. But this time Flash didn't fuck up.
Sometimes when I go 14CC or rax FE the zerg decides to go all in lings after 12hatch (Mamon, octoberzerg hi!) and sometimes I fuck up my scv micro when he tries to run by. So it works and he feels really good about it but really it was just me fucking up. Next time he tries the same, I've learned from my mistakes and he gets raped. Thats how these things work. The all in ling looks really good when it works, but really it's just a biiig risk and you can count yourself lucky you opponent wasn't blocking correctly if it works.
Regarding 2), game 2 was a horrible loss from Effort yes, got outplayed. But in game 1 he was in a very good position (even without the valk snipes, drone scout was huge and I really would have liked to see what Effort wanted to do with the 4th hatch).
Yes ofcourse. I'm not saying Effort was behind or anything like that. It was really open and the game wasn't even remotly decided. I would also have liked to see what Effort had planned to do.
Some people though somehow get it in their mind that Effort had this huge advantage and I just don't get it.
On June 01 2010 02:19 Mykill wrote: Calm ahead of Shine imo Effort ftw
Calm had a losing record this month, with wins against great, Crazy-Hydra, Peace, and one lone win against Jaedong in a series in which he was impressive, but ultimately totally outclassed. Not PR-worthy at all.
On June 01 2010 05:02 ]343[ wrote: oh the other thing: why is fantasy on the rank at all? was he really that impressive?...
Glad I'm not the only one who doesn't understand this.
fantasy played an excellent game against Flash that he barely lost, then made him look stupid with good scouting, and an inventive cheese on his part. He lost to Jaedong because JD responded perfectly to a really neat build. He lost to EffOrt in another excellent and close game.
And the rest of the month he rolled. So basically, close losses, and strong performances across the board.
On June 01 2010 02:19 Mykill wrote: Calm ahead of Shine imo Effort ftw
Calm had a losing record this month, with wins against great, Crazy-Hydra, Peace, and one lone win against Jaedong in a series in which he was impressive, but ultimately totally outclassed. Not PR-worthy at all.
On June 01 2010 05:02 ]343[ wrote: oh the other thing: why is fantasy on the rank at all? was he really that impressive?...
Glad I'm not the only one who doesn't understand this.
fantasy played an excellent game against Flash that he barely lost, then made him look stupid with good scouting, and an inventive cheese on his part. He lost to Jaedong because JD responded perfectly to a really neat build. He lost to EffOrt in another excellent and close game.
And the rest of the month he rolled. So basically, close losses, and strong performances across the board.
''The rest of the month'' doesn't include anything awesome at all. Seriously, the guy went 4-3 last month (and he's been around roughly 50% since a couple of months back) and did literally nothing impressive at all. The win vs Hiya was the only positive thing I can remember. The first game vs Flash wasn't even remotely close, Flash won that game more than 10 minutes before Fantasy gg'd. It was a rape. The second game was an extremely lucky win. The loss vs JD wasn't due to JD playing good, it was because Fantasy played like a complete fucking retard. The loss vs Effort showed that he's incapable of playing proper modern late game TvZ. The game vs Action was Fantasy winning the game with his BO (stopped the 4-pool (or was it 5-pool?) completely) and still almost died due to more retardation. His win vs Clam was a typical Fantasy vs Clam game, i.e one of them failed harder than the other.
We can't give everyone who gets lucky vs Flash a spot on the PR just because of that. There are plenty of players who had a better (or at least just as good) month as Fantasy had.
mmmmmm i think jaedong is worthy of being above effort...i mean effort did beat flash and thats an achievement in itself but i think jaedong is definitely overall a more solid player and yea he needs a break lol
Anyways, I think the PR is ideal because of Effort and Snow. Kal dropping makes me happy though he did push his team the most. Midas disappointed us all this month. BaBy is WeMade's Ace and dropped very few games. Shine? i didnt really check his stats but he has been winning. Fantasy on the PL is sorta.. eh.. he is the only non Z on SKT to be pulling his weight.
edit: holy fuck at Shine. i didnt know he had that great of a month. 4-0??? i didnt expect that but maybe he had the same mental clearance as effort did in the 7 hour long tie breaker
While Baby had a decent May I really don't think he's that great of a player, or atleast that he's good enough to beat JD in a boX. Yeah he won one time in a bo3, but he didn't beat JD on great barrier reef, the map beat JD. 4th is a tad bit too high IMO.
Lets first look at snow. "Nevertheless, with a super strong PvT and PvP" what?! Snow is good PvT. A win against flash and a 70% win rate is never bad, but good PvP? he's 4-7 PvP lifetime with only 4 games played in the past 3 months and 2 of those wins were against Much and Jaehoon who as we all know are AMAAZZIINGGGG at PvP.
Midas only won 2 games in may; against hogil and MVP. Yeah he lost to stork, but according to the powerranking, Stork is a nobody.
And I don't think that Effort should be placed above JD. Now I love effort to death, but I just don't think he's as good as JD in the late game. The 3 wins that he got against Flash were all using clever almost gimicky builds with great mindgames in the early/midgame. JD is just the all arround better player in all matchups.
I would of liked to see kwanro or calm or maybe even free in the powerrankings, because they had a decent may and they are by far better than like half of the people who got in today. Kwanro is playing good in the proleague, and I'd say he's playing better than shine, who got in. Sure free lost 3-0 to flash, but it wasn't so much free playing bad but more Flash curbstomping all protosses if anything.
On June 01 2010 05:22 raga4ka wrote: To be honest i'm disappointed with Jaedong . Flash nowadays either cheeses does some wierd mech build with ultra fast CC or 14 CC in TvZ . I think zergs should abuse either 2 hat mutas / lurkers or some pool first opening and be more aggresive . His hidra bust was a good try , but he over comited and from the looks of it either didn't practise a follow-up and just all -in or was frustrated because he was down 0 - 2 and all -ined. I don't mind him being as greedy as Flash at least 1 game .
Effort's preparation impressed me much more . He would have won the first game if they didn't replay it regardless of the valkyrie's death . Because Effort was going for a 4 hatch hidra break after he build 5 mutas and 2- 4 scourge . Flash invested alot of gas in to valkery and goliaths , and probably wouldn't have enough for tanks in time to stop the hidra bust . His greedy build to match Flash on Odd-eye was good . He took the high ground expansion at 9 o'clock first meaning that if Flash scouted his natural and saw no hatchery he could potentially not scout Effort because odd-eye is a fairly big map and 12 hat at natural is more likely and pros normally move their SCV to the next spot after scouting the nat . And he played brilliantly in his other games punishing Flash for every little mistake he made .
I'm pretty sure Jaedong had the hydra break easily, but he focused the bunker instead of the wall. He didn't have to stand in range of the bunker at all...
Thanks for not ranking Jaedong #2. Effort had the better month, and Jaedong stunk up the joint on the biggest stage.
But where the hell is Kwanro? He was the only stars player that was remotely alive last month, and he's still 5th in ELO. Not at all sold on fantasy, either.
On June 01 2010 07:54 Lucid90 wrote: While Baby had a decent May I really don't think he's that great of a player, or atleast that he's good enough to beat JD in a boX. Yeah he won one time in a bo3, but he didn't beat JD on great barrier reef, the map beat JD. 4th is a tad bit too high IMO.
Uhm... Jaedong himself admitted that he'd have lost that game on Great Barrier Reef anyway? He beat JD fair and square in that series. Have you actually watched those games? I bet you haven't, and I also bet you haven't watched a single one of Baby's games in May.
On June 01 2010 07:54 Lucid90 wrote: While Baby had a decent May I really don't think he's that great of a player, or atleast that he's good enough to beat JD in a boX. Yeah he won one time in a bo3, but he didn't beat JD on great barrier reef, the map beat JD. 4th is a tad bit too high IMO.
Uhm... Jaedong himself admitted that he'd have lost that game on Great Barrier Reef anyway? He beat JD fair and square in that series. Have you actually watched those games? I bet you haven't, and I also bet you haven't watched a single one of Baby's games in May.
Just watch his latest game vs Kal. Kal stood no chance at all versus his brute mechanics and multi-task.
I really have to disagree with your comment on JD/Effort. If Effort lost to flash 3-0, there is no way any person would put him above jaedong.
Look at each one of their months excluding the OSL/MSL final. Jaedong 13-1, his only loss to Calm in a Bo5. Effort 6-0
After the finals we have Jaedong 13-4 and Effort 9-2, I know this doesn't just look at stats but both had crazy match list against S class players. Jaedong has been ripping assholes open for the last 2 months, while he is being overshadowed by Flash at the moment his ELO was still well over the 2300 mark, and even after the final it still was. The only way I think ANY person would take EffOrt over JD is looking at the OSL finals, in which all games pretty much sucked.
Shuttle can't PvZ? Shuttle had a 11 PvZ win streak in non-preliminary games few months ago which included wins against ZerO, ZvP specialist HoeJJa, and great. (Action and RorO too, but meh...)
But until then, he's only lost three other PvZ's, one with soO going just about Sauron mode.
On June 01 2010 11:00 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I really have to disagree with your comment on JD/Effort. If Effort lost to flash 3-0, there is no way any person would put him above jaedong.
Look at each one of their months excluding the OSL/MSL final. Jaedong 13-1, his only loss to Calm in a Bo5. Effort 6-0
After the finals we have Jaedong 13-4 and Effort 9-2, I know this doesn't just look at stats but both had crazy match list against S class players. Jaedong has been ripping assholes open for the last 2 months, while he is being overshadowed by Flash at the moment his ELO was still well over the 2300 mark, and even after the final it still was. The only way I think ANY person would take EffOrt over JD is looking at the OSL finals, in which all games pretty much sucked.
On June 01 2010 07:54 Lucid90 wrote: While Baby had a decent May I really don't think he's that great of a player, or atleast that he's good enough to beat JD in a boX. Yeah he won one time in a bo3, but he didn't beat JD on great barrier reef, the map beat JD. 4th is a tad bit too high IMO.
Uhm... Jaedong himself admitted that he'd have lost that game on Great Barrier Reef anyway? He beat JD fair and square in that series. Have you actually watched those games? I bet you haven't, and I also bet you haven't watched a single one of Baby's games in May.
Agreed, Baby's placing is totally justified. Everyone's Flash this, Jaedong that, and Effort there, but behind those four is the second best terran. Heck, I give Baby a decent chance of beating both Zergs in a bo3. bo5 is a different story.
On June 01 2010 14:36 SoManyDeadLings wrote: All I'm going to say is... Snow, YoonJoong AND Shine on the Power Rank?
Wtf, wtf, wtf!!!??
Why are you so surprised at Snow? He was definitely going to be on the Power Rank after he beat Flash, it was just a question of where. Maybe he is a bit high, but after Kal failed last night Snow was pushed up.
On June 01 2010 14:36 SoManyDeadLings wrote: All I'm going to say is... Snow, YoonJoong AND Shine on the Power Rank?
Wtf, wtf, wtf!!!??
Why are you so surprised at Snow? He was definitely going to be on the Power Rank after he beat Flash, it was just a question of where. Maybe he is a bit high, but after Kal failed last night Snow was pushed up.
Why are some people suprised at any of them? Shine just slumped after his post OSL slump where he tore everyone up undtil the semifinals where he met Movie (Argueably the best PvZ right now). People seem to forget that Shine was at 4th once and deserved it (by that time). Dont get me wrong, Iove Shine as much as I love Calm. And people suprised at Shuttle, Snow and Shine (and Stats for CBNC) have no idea whats going on in BW nowadays.
I wouldn't argue too hard against Efforts #2 this month, but I just feel that JD had more momentum post-finals. But I suppose you have to view all of JD's and Effort's games to determine who packs the most punch this month.
Anyone calling the Bonjwa debate over at this point is sorely mistaken. It is still too early to tell whether Flash will exert completely and utter dominance like Oov, Nada and Boxer did - but I will say we're getting close. This upcoming season will be the one where the debate is settled once and for all. Oh and Effort beating Flash doesn't disprove the Bonjwa theory one bit - iloveoov lost to July twice, both in the Gillette semis and the iTv Final - and he's still remembered as a bonjwa.
Yeah seriously this is getting silly. Some people are so focused on not giving him that name that any loss will do. One loss and you're out. I bet they weren't even there to witness players like savior and iloveoov but rather just heard stories about them.
Bonjwa talk being over is bullshit. He's in the middle of his time where he might be crowned right now. 4 finals in a row, 4000+ kespa, floating on 2400 ELO, defeated his greatest rival 3-0 in the finals, 70% all matchups and roughly 80% all matchups since his domination started a year ago - And now some say his bonjwa run is over? After this, seriously?
I'm not saying he is Bonjwa, I don't know how you define it anymore since he's not named. However if you're going to give one justified reason as to why he shouldn't be Bonjwa it should be that his time of domination has only been a year.
Flash at the top was expected. Effort over Jaedong I can understand, hell I kind of expected it. Snow and fantasy I think are a bit too high, but then again I can't really think of anyone that deserves to take their spots so I guess it's okay there. I feel like Midas is on his last leg here, which makes me sad because it was so nice to see an old school player faring so well. Shine at 10th is weird. I actually expected free (or even Classic), but that's my inner fanyboyism talking.
For the most part there was nothing surprising this month so...good power rank~
On May 31 2010 23:10 SubtleArt wrote: Snow is way way way way way way way way to high. Theres just something about a Protoss who can only (ONLY) PvT and nothing else that annoys me. Kinda like watching a TvZ only Terran (COUGH RUBY MASSIVE BELOW 30% TVP COUGH). If you watch Snow's games against zerg, their horrible. Look at the list of shitty zergs hes lost to. Of course its too late to determine if hes going to end up being a 1 matchup player but right now it sure as hell looks like it and until he doesn't suck massively vs zerg I don't think he deserves to be that high. Losing games to Hyuk (twice) and Roro but beating players like Really and Flash convincingly indicates a massive skill difference between PvZ and PvT
Also, I'd still put Jaedong in front of effort simply cause Jaedong has been on fire this month and Effort really hasn't beaten great people (other than flash but I refuse to count a failed BBS and a failed 14CC as wins displaying skill).
Effort went 9-2 or 81.8% in May. JD went 13-4 or 76.5% in May. Pretty close, however:
Effort came back from being down 0-2 in a bo5 to the number 1 terran in the world. Remember anyone else in recent years who did this? Oh right, Jaedong to Fantasy.
JD got crushed 3-0. It wasn't even close. And alot of people (except some flash fans) were disappointed with the finals.
Also you suggest Effort has beaten no one good? He beat Kal, fantasy, great. Go back just one more week to april and he beat: ZerO, Kwanro, Action,
On June 01 2010 05:22 raga4ka wrote: To be honest i'm disappointed with Jaedong . Flash nowadays either cheeses does some wierd mech build with ultra fast CC or 14 CC in TvZ . I think zergs should abuse either 2 hat mutas / lurkers or some pool first opening and be more aggresive . His hidra bust was a good try , but he over comited and from the looks of it either didn't practise a follow-up and just all -in or was frustrated because he was down 0 - 2 and all -ined. I don't mind him being as greedy as Flash at least 1 game .
Effort's preparation impressed me much more . He would have won the first game if they didn't replay it regardless of the valkyrie's death . Because Effort was going for a 4 hatch hidra break after he build 5 mutas and 2- 4 scourge . Flash invested alot of gas in to valkery and goliaths , and probably wouldn't have enough for tanks in time to stop the hidra bust . His greedy build to match Flash on Odd-eye was good . He took the high ground expansion at 9 o'clock first meaning that if Flash scouted his natural and saw no hatchery he could potentially not scout Effort because odd-eye is a fairly big map and 12 hat at natural is more likely and pros normally move their SCV to the next spot after scouting the nat . And he played brilliantly in his other games punishing Flash for every little mistake he made .
I'm pretty sure Jaedong had the hydra break easily, but he focused the bunker instead of the wall. He didn't have to stand in range of the bunker at all...
You are right , he should have focused the wall and he would have killed both the depots and barracks quickly while massing up a lot more hidras . Flash would have been supply blocked and probably would have lost the game . He wasted a lot of time and hidras on that bunker while Flash was repairing . Still he shouldn't have over commited especially after Flash had 3 siege tanks already placed and JD hadn't even expanded yet .
Anyone calling the Bonjwa debate over at this point is sorely mistaken. It is still too early to tell whether Flash will exert completely and utter dominance like Oov, Nada and Boxer did - but I will say we're getting close. This upcoming season will be the one where the debate is settled once and for all. Oh and Effort beating Flash doesn't disprove the Bonjwa theory one bit - iloveoov lost to July twice, both in the Gillette semis and the iTv Final - and he's still remembered as a bonjwa.
Yeah seriously this is getting silly. Some people are so focused on not giving him that name that any loss will do. One loss and you're out. I bet they weren't even there to witness players like savior and iloveoov but rather just heard stories about them.
Bonjwa talk being over is bullshit. He's in the middle of his time where he might be crowned right now. 4 finals in a row, 4000+ kespa, floating on 2400 ELO, defeated his greatest rival 3-0 in the finals, 70% all matchups and roughly 80% all matchups since his domination started a year ago - And now some say his bonjwa run is over? After this, seriously?
I'm not saying he is Bonjwa, I don't know how you define it anymore since he's not named. However if you're going to give one justified reason as to why he shouldn't be Bonjwa it should be that his time of domination has only been a year.
I think because JD didn't get the title it is now super hard to get it. Anyway it's not up to us to decide, it's the Korean fans.
Anyone calling the Bonjwa debate over at this point is sorely mistaken. It is still too early to tell whether Flash will exert completely and utter dominance like Oov, Nada and Boxer did - but I will say we're getting close. This upcoming season will be the one where the debate is settled once and for all. Oh and Effort beating Flash doesn't disprove the Bonjwa theory one bit - iloveoov lost to July twice, both in the Gillette semis and the iTv Final - and he's still remembered as a bonjwa.
Yeah seriously this is getting silly. Some people are so focused on not giving him that name that any loss will do. One loss and you're out. I bet they weren't even there to witness players like savior and iloveoov but rather just heard stories about them.
Bonjwa talk being over is bullshit. He's in the middle of his time where he might be crowned right now. 4 finals in a row, 4000+ kespa, floating on 2400 ELO, defeated his greatest rival 3-0 in the finals, 70% all matchups and roughly 80% all matchups since his domination started a year ago - And now some say his bonjwa run is over? After this, seriously?
I'm not saying he is Bonjwa, I don't know how you define it anymore since he's not named. However if you're going to give one justified reason as to why he shouldn't be Bonjwa it should be that his time of domination has only been a year.
I think because JD didn't get the title it is now super hard to get it. Anyway it's not up to us to decide, it's the Korean fans.
Yeah. The whole discussion is out of control because there are apparently no rules for the matter.
On June 01 2010 20:53 Lightningbullet wrote: Flash Just lost to HiyA. That can't be good.
It's never good to see Flash lose, but it happens.
yeah, even Flash has to show signs of burnout, I think he is going through the same way Jaedong did last summer. Jaedong looked like a zombie back then.
Dual finals back to back and carrying your team to the playoffs. Poor Flash.
On June 01 2010 20:53 Lightningbullet wrote: Flash Just lost to HiyA. That can't be good.
It's never good to see Flash lose, but it happens.
yeah, even Flash has to show signs of burnout, I think he is going through the same way Jaedong did last summer. Jaedong looked like a zombie back then.
Dual finals back to back and carrying your team to the playoffs. Poor Flash.
I doubt it.
If Flash was ever going to slump again it would've been after the OSL finals. Instead he just shrugs it off and comes back as an even stronger player.
His loss to HiYa will only result in him practising more TvT.
On June 01 2010 20:53 Lightningbullet wrote: Flash Just lost to HiyA. That can't be good.
It's never good to see Flash lose, but it happens.
yeah, even Flash has to show signs of burnout, I think he is going through the same way Jaedong did last summer. Jaedong looked like a zombie back then.
Dual finals back to back and carrying your team to the playoffs. Poor Flash.
I doubt it.
If Flash was ever going to slump again it would've been after the OSL finals. Instead he just shrugs it off and comes back as an even stronger player.
His loss to HiYa will only result in him practising more TvT.
You must be a bandwagon Flash fan since you dont remember last year. Flash doesnt have unlimited stamina. And I assure you Flash has been practicing enough TvT.
On June 01 2010 20:53 Lightningbullet wrote: Flash Just lost to HiyA. That can't be good.
It's never good to see Flash lose, but it happens.
yeah, even Flash has to show signs of burnout, I think he is going through the same way Jaedong did last summer. Jaedong looked like a zombie back then.
Dual finals back to back and carrying your team to the playoffs. Poor Flash.
I doubt it.
If Flash was ever going to slump again it would've been after the OSL finals. Instead he just shrugs it off and comes back as an even stronger player.
His loss to HiYa will only result in him practising more TvT.
You must be a bandwagon Flash fan since you dont remember last year. Flash doesnt have unlimited stamina. And I assure you Flash has been practicing enough TvT.
On June 01 2010 20:53 Lightningbullet wrote: Flash Just lost to HiyA. That can't be good.
It's never good to see Flash lose, but it happens.
yeah, even Flash has to show signs of burnout, I think he is going through the same way Jaedong did last summer. Jaedong looked like a zombie back then.
Dual finals back to back and carrying your team to the playoffs. Poor Flash.
I doubt it.
If Flash was ever going to slump again it would've been after the OSL finals. Instead he just shrugs it off and comes back as an even stronger player.
His loss to HiYa will only result in him practising more TvT.
You must be a bandwagon Flash fan since you dont remember last year. Flash doesnt have unlimited stamina. And I assure you Flash has been practicing enough TvT.
Actually I've been following Flash since 2008.
I don't think Flash "unlimited stamina". However he does have above-average stamina, and he manages his condition well. Flash wouldn't be where he is today if he couldn't.
Flash has just come out of dual finals versus Zerg players. I doubt he has been playing his usual amount of TvT practise lately.
On June 01 2010 20:53 Lightningbullet wrote: Flash Just lost to HiyA. That can't be good.
It's never good to see Flash lose, but it happens.
yeah, even Flash has to show signs of burnout, I think he is going through the same way Jaedong did last summer. Jaedong looked like a zombie back then.
Dual finals back to back and carrying your team to the playoffs. Poor Flash.
I doubt it.
If Flash was ever going to slump again it would've been after the OSL finals. Instead he just shrugs it off and comes back as an even stronger player.
His loss to HiYa will only result in him practising more TvT.
You must be a bandwagon Flash fan since you dont remember last year. Flash doesnt have unlimited stamina. And I assure you Flash has been practicing enough TvT.
You dont have to be a biased flash fan to know that each time he lost in his dominating period, he started practicing the matchup more undtil his faults were fixed. I am not doubting that he might be burned out sooner or later, it's bound to happen sometime. But last season flash only had Violet to rely on, now he can fall back on fOrGG, Violet and Stats. That is a major difference. We know you are a terrible poster. We know you can have some points. But please try to take things in perspective.
On June 01 2010 20:53 Lightningbullet wrote: Flash Just lost to HiyA. That can't be good.
It's never good to see Flash lose, but it happens.
yeah, even Flash has to show signs of burnout, I think he is going through the same way Jaedong did last summer. Jaedong looked like a zombie back then.
Dual finals back to back and carrying your team to the playoffs. Poor Flash.
I doubt it.
If Flash was ever going to slump again it would've been after the OSL finals. Instead he just shrugs it off and comes back as an even stronger player.
His loss to HiYa will only result in him practising more TvT.
You must be a bandwagon Flash fan since you dont remember last year. Flash doesnt have unlimited stamina. And I assure you Flash has been practicing enough TvT.
You dont have to be a biased flash fan to know that each time he lost in his dominating period, he started practicing the matchup more undtil his faults were fixed. I am not doubting that he might be burned out sooner or later, it's bound to happen sometime. But last season flash only had Violet to rely on, now he can fall back on fOrGG, Violet and Stats. That is a major difference. We know you are a terrible poster. We know you can have some points. But please try to take things in perspective.
actually last season Flash had no one to rely on, except Lux when he decided to not throw games, Violet only started playing well when KT was already out of top7, but otherwise you are right
Random note, I really hoped TLPD will get fixed soon. I wanna see Snow on top at PvT. =)
Over 4000 points in the Kespa rank. Wow. Flash has broken so many records since his dominance began. He needs to stop dropping games in PL though, or his crazy ELO and winrate will go down fast.
On June 01 2010 20:53 Lightningbullet wrote: Flash Just lost to HiyA. That can't be good.
It's never good to see Flash lose, but it happens.
yeah, even Flash has to show signs of burnout, I think he is going through the same way Jaedong did last summer. Jaedong looked like a zombie back then.
Dual finals back to back and carrying your team to the playoffs. Poor Flash.
I doubt it.
If Flash was ever going to slump again it would've been after the OSL finals. Instead he just shrugs it off and comes back as an even stronger player.
His loss to HiYa will only result in him practising more TvT.
You must be a bandwagon Flash fan since you dont remember last year. Flash doesnt have unlimited stamina. And I assure you Flash has been practicing enough TvT.
You dont have to be a biased flash fan to know that each time he lost in his dominating period, he started practicing the matchup more undtil his faults were fixed. I am not doubting that he might be burned out sooner or later, it's bound to happen sometime. But last season flash only had Violet to rely on, now he can fall back on fOrGG, Violet and Stats. That is a major difference. We know you are a terrible poster. We know you can have some points. But please try to take things in perspective.
actually last season Flash had no one to rely on, except Lux when he decided to not throw games, Violet only started playing well when KT was already out of top7, but otherwise you are right
Random note, I really hoped TLPD will get fixed soon. I wanna see Snow on top at PvT. =)
Lol Flash is so good, the way he turned around that game vs hiya.. seriously I was amazed. Flash turned around what seemed a hopeless situation to an advantage but Hiya found a nice opening with that drop and Flash missed on a scan, went out of position, and that can be very devestating.
Lately somehow I've come to think Flash's TvT is his weakest matchup, even thouhg he's the best TvT'er out there he more than often gets into long, drawn out and pretty equal games until he does something wierd (macro hi) and wins.
Well played by Hiya and I think if he can keep this up he'll join the ranks next month.
On June 02 2010 00:44 SuperArc wrote: TvT isn't really his "weakest" matchup, its just terrans caught up to him just like zergs did to Jaedong.
He's most likely to lose in a TvT nowadays rather than TvZ and TvP from what you can see. Even the games where he wins can sometimes look painfully equal.
It doesn't matter how you rank "weakest matchup". It's always relative. If other players are stronger than avarage and thus you lose more, it's still your weakest matchup.
His results say his TvT is equally strong as his other matchups but the games tells me another story.
TvT is the matchup I've found Flash's play to be least dominant and have been so for about 2 months now. Remember I don't just watch TLPD score, I watch the games.
On June 02 2010 00:44 SuperArc wrote: TvT isn't really his "weakest" matchup, its just terrans caught up to him just like zergs did to Jaedong.
He's most likely to lose in a TvT nowadays rather than TvZ and TvP from what you can see. Even the games where he wins can sometimes look painfully equal.
It doesn't matter how you rank "weakest matchup". It's always relative. If other players are stronger than avarage and thus you lose more, it's still your weakest matchup.
His results say his TvT is equally strong as his other matchups but the games tells me another story.
TvT is the matchup I've found Flash's play to be least dominant and have been so for about 2 months now. Remember I don't just watch TLPD score, I watch the games.
It's very rare for a single TvT to really show a dominance. Since it's a much much "slower" MU than ZvZ or even PvP, the things that win TvT don't show up as much - in most TvTs there really is a point I usually find myself going, "Wait, 6 bases to 2 how did this happen?"
Yes, the gap between Flash and everybody else has probably narrowed, between others studying Flash's play and Flash playing exclusively TvZ and TvP in the MSL and OSL since the semifinals. But Flash still looks like the dominant TvTer.
On June 02 2010 00:44 SuperArc wrote: TvT isn't really his "weakest" matchup, its just terrans caught up to him just like zergs did to Jaedong.
He's most likely to lose in a TvT nowadays rather than TvZ and TvP from what you can see. Even the games where he wins can sometimes look painfully equal.
It doesn't matter how you rank "weakest matchup". It's always relative. If other players are stronger than avarage and thus you lose more, it's still your weakest matchup.
His results say his TvT is equally strong as his other matchups but the games tells me another story.
TvT is the matchup I've found Flash's play to be least dominant and have been so for about 2 months now. Remember I don't just watch TLPD score, I watch the games.
It's very rare for a single TvT to really show a dominance. Since it's a much much "slower" MU than ZvZ or even PvP, the things that win TvT don't show up as much - in most TvTs there really is a point I usually find myself going, "Wait, 6 bases to 2 how did this happen?"
Yes, the gap between Flash and everybody else has probably narrowed, between others studying Flash's play and Flash playing exclusively TvZ and TvP in the MSL and OSL since the semifinals. But Flash still looks like the dominant TvTer.
Yes he certainly do. It's just that, as of late, this is the matchup which I'm the least confident of him winning. That doesn't say he's not still the best.
If he plays vs FBH, Leta, Sea, hiya or some other with good recent TvT showings I feel much less sure of a win than if he would face almost any zerg and protoss.
On June 02 2010 00:44 SuperArc wrote: TvT isn't really his "weakest" matchup, its just terrans caught up to him just like zergs did to Jaedong.
He's most likely to lose in a TvT nowadays rather than TvZ and TvP from what you can see. Even the games where he wins can sometimes look painfully equal.
It doesn't matter how you rank "weakest matchup". It's always relative. If other players are stronger than avarage and thus you lose more, it's still your weakest matchup.
His results say his TvT is equally strong as his other matchups but the games tells me another story.
TvT is the matchup I've found Flash's play to be least dominant and have been so for about 2 months now. Remember I don't just watch TLPD score, I watch the games.
It's very rare for a single TvT to really show a dominance. Since it's a much much "slower" MU than ZvZ or even PvP, the things that win TvT don't show up as much - in most TvTs there really is a point I usually find myself going, "Wait, 6 bases to 2 how did this happen?"
Yes, the gap between Flash and everybody else has probably narrowed, between others studying Flash's play and Flash playing exclusively TvZ and TvP in the MSL and OSL since the semifinals. But Flash still looks like the dominant TvTer.
Yes he certainly do. It's just that, as of late, this is the matchup which I'm the least confident of him winning. That doesn't say he's not still the best.
If he plays vs FBH, Leta, Sea, hiya or some other with good recent TvT showings I feel much less sure of a win than if he would face almost any zerg and protoss.
You forgot the most important, Skyhigh. And FBH always plays S-class against Flash and loses in the end haha.
On June 02 2010 00:44 SuperArc wrote: TvT isn't really his "weakest" matchup, its just terrans caught up to him just like zergs did to Jaedong.
He's most likely to lose in a TvT nowadays rather than TvZ and TvP from what you can see. Even the games where he wins can sometimes look painfully equal.
It doesn't matter how you rank "weakest matchup". It's always relative. If other players are stronger than avarage and thus you lose more, it's still your weakest matchup.
His results say his TvT is equally strong as his other matchups but the games tells me another story.
TvT is the matchup I've found Flash's play to be least dominant and have been so for about 2 months now. Remember I don't just watch TLPD score, I watch the games.
It's very rare for a single TvT to really show a dominance. Since it's a much much "slower" MU than ZvZ or even PvP, the things that win TvT don't show up as much - in most TvTs there really is a point I usually find myself going, "Wait, 6 bases to 2 how did this happen?"
Yes, the gap between Flash and everybody else has probably narrowed, between others studying Flash's play and Flash playing exclusively TvZ and TvP in the MSL and OSL since the semifinals. But Flash still looks like the dominant TvTer.
Yes he certainly do. It's just that, as of late, this is the matchup which I'm the least confident of him winning. That doesn't say he's not still the best.
If he plays vs FBH, Leta, Sea, hiya or some other with good recent TvT showings I feel much less sure of a win than if he would face almost any zerg and protoss.
You forgot the most important, Skyhigh. And FBH always plays S-class against Flash and loses in the end haha.
yeah, forgot skyhigh and baby. point is there's plenty of terrans that play dangerously good TvT right now. Whereas zerg and protoss offer no consistent threat right now. Except Jaedong...
On June 01 2010 02:19 Mykill wrote: Calm ahead of Shine imo Effort ftw
Calm had a losing record this month, with wins against great, Crazy-Hydra, Peace, and one lone win against Jaedong in a series in which he was impressive, but ultimately totally outclassed. Not PR-worthy at all.
On June 01 2010 05:26 Holgerius wrote:
On June 01 2010 05:02 ]343[ wrote: oh the other thing: why is fantasy on the rank at all? was he really that impressive?...
Glad I'm not the only one who doesn't understand this.
fantasy played an excellent game against Flash that he barely lost, then made him look stupid with good scouting, and an inventive cheese on his part. He lost to Jaedong because JD responded perfectly to a really neat build. He lost to EffOrt in another excellent and close game.
And the rest of the month he rolled. So basically, close losses, and strong performances across the board.
''The rest of the month'' doesn't include anything awesome at all. Seriously, the guy went 4-3 last month (and he's been around roughly 50% since a couple of months back) and did literally nothing impressive at all. The win vs Hiya was the only positive thing I can remember. The first game vs Flash wasn't even remotely close, Flash won that game more than 10 minutes before Fantasy gg'd. It was a rape. The second game was an extremely lucky win. The loss vs JD wasn't due to JD playing good, it was because Fantasy played like a complete fucking retard. The loss vs Effort showed that he's incapable of playing proper modern late game TvZ. The game vs Action was Fantasy winning the game with his BO (stopped the 4-pool (or was it 5-pool?) completely) and still almost died due to more retardation. His win vs Clam was a typical Fantasy vs Clam game, i.e one of them failed harder than the other.
We can't give everyone who gets lucky vs Flash a spot on the PR just because of that. There are plenty of players who had a better (or at least just as good) month as Fantasy had.
It's nice to see that you can't produce an argument that doesn't constitute an ad hominem or baseless blanket statement, Mr. Holgersson. Says more about you than Fantasy, admitedly, but I'm still going to take that as a pluss.
On June 01 2010 02:19 Mykill wrote: Calm ahead of Shine imo Effort ftw
Calm had a losing record this month, with wins against great, Crazy-Hydra, Peace, and one lone win against Jaedong in a series in which he was impressive, but ultimately totally outclassed. Not PR-worthy at all.
On June 01 2010 05:26 Holgerius wrote:
On June 01 2010 05:02 ]343[ wrote: oh the other thing: why is fantasy on the rank at all? was he really that impressive?...
Glad I'm not the only one who doesn't understand this.
fantasy played an excellent game against Flash that he barely lost, then made him look stupid with good scouting, and an inventive cheese on his part. He lost to Jaedong because JD responded perfectly to a really neat build. He lost to EffOrt in another excellent and close game.
And the rest of the month he rolled. So basically, close losses, and strong performances across the board.
''The rest of the month'' doesn't include anything awesome at all. Seriously, the guy went 4-3 last month (and he's been around roughly 50% since a couple of months back) and did literally nothing impressive at all. The win vs Hiya was the only positive thing I can remember. The first game vs Flash wasn't even remotely close, Flash won that game more than 10 minutes before Fantasy gg'd. It was a rape. The second game was an extremely lucky win. The loss vs JD wasn't due to JD playing good, it was because Fantasy played like a complete fucking retard. The loss vs Effort showed that he's incapable of playing proper modern late game TvZ. The game vs Action was Fantasy winning the game with his BO (stopped the 4-pool (or was it 5-pool?) completely) and still almost died due to more retardation. His win vs Clam was a typical Fantasy vs Clam game, i.e one of them failed harder than the other.
We can't give everyone who gets lucky vs Flash a spot on the PR just because of that. There are plenty of players who had a better (or at least just as good) month as Fantasy had.
It's nice to see that you can't produce an argument that doesn't constitute an ad hominem or baseless blanket statement, Mr. Holgersson. Says more about you than Fantasy, admitedly, but I'm still going to take that as a pluss.
yay finally some love for CJ after none of their players even got into CNBC for a while I would prolly still put JD on #2 but oh well, effort's awesome
On June 01 2010 02:19 Mykill wrote: Calm ahead of Shine imo Effort ftw
Calm had a losing record this month, with wins against great, Crazy-Hydra, Peace, and one lone win against Jaedong in a series in which he was impressive, but ultimately totally outclassed. Not PR-worthy at all.
On June 01 2010 05:26 Holgerius wrote:
On June 01 2010 05:02 ]343[ wrote: oh the other thing: why is fantasy on the rank at all? was he really that impressive?...
Glad I'm not the only one who doesn't understand this.
fantasy played an excellent game against Flash that he barely lost, then made him look stupid with good scouting, and an inventive cheese on his part. He lost to Jaedong because JD responded perfectly to a really neat build. He lost to EffOrt in another excellent and close game.
And the rest of the month he rolled. So basically, close losses, and strong performances across the board.
''The rest of the month'' doesn't include anything awesome at all. Seriously, the guy went 4-3 last month (and he's been around roughly 50% since a couple of months back) and did literally nothing impressive at all. The win vs Hiya was the only positive thing I can remember. The first game vs Flash wasn't even remotely close, Flash won that game more than 10 minutes before Fantasy gg'd. It was a rape. The second game was an extremely lucky win. The loss vs JD wasn't due to JD playing good, it was because Fantasy played like a complete fucking retard. The loss vs Effort showed that he's incapable of playing proper modern late game TvZ. The game vs Action was Fantasy winning the game with his BO (stopped the 4-pool (or was it 5-pool?) completely) and still almost died due to more retardation. His win vs Clam was a typical Fantasy vs Clam game, i.e one of them failed harder than the other.
We can't give everyone who gets lucky vs Flash a spot on the PR just because of that. There are plenty of players who had a better (or at least just as good) month as Fantasy had.
It's nice to see that you can't produce an argument that doesn't constitute an ad hominem or baseless blanket statement, Mr. Holgersson. Says more about you than Fantasy, admitedly, but I'm still going to take that as a pluss.
Do you know what "ad hominem" means?
lol this is amusing. he calls a post referencing only the progamers in question "ad hominem" @_@
On June 02 2010 13:21 SuperArc wrote: I dont know, beating Kwanro on Match Point kinda means you can PvZ or not?
It means you've mastered the long lost protoss art of building a reaver and chilling in your base while the Kwanro/Shine mode of player funnels its hydralisks at it
Seriously though, GG. Snow (or Stats) better be the neo-Bisu so this depressing protoss fail era can come to an end.
On June 02 2010 13:21 SuperArc wrote: I dont know, beating Kwanro on Match Point kinda means you can PvZ or not?
It means you've mastered the long lost protoss art of building a reaver and chilling in your base while the Kwanro/Shine mode of player funnels its hydralisks at it
Seriously though, GG. Snow (or Stats) better be the neo-Bisu so this depressing protoss fail era can come to an end.
XD Snow went 2-0 against terran/zerg in a week where every other protoss failed at winning their game.
Now if that isnt clutch, Snow is gonna make the CJ protoss line the strongest in the Pl.
This is such a biased ranking its not even funny. Jaedong winning flawlesly for whole month and overall better player in every way is worse than lucky Bo5 Effort? Did you even see the whole OSL? at the tiebreaker Effort was so bad. Seriously, it was very short-sighted evaluation.
On June 02 2010 19:45 NightOfTheDead wrote: This is such a biased ranking its not even funny. Jaedong winning flawlesly for whole month and overall better player in every way is worse than lucky Bo5 Effort? Did you even see the whole OSL? at the tiebreaker Effort was so bad. Seriously, it was very short-sighted evaluation.
I really love Jaedong and am one of his biggest fans, but JD has certainly lost momentum since the final loss. His ZvP against Stats yesterday was very shaky and his forgetting ling speed almost cost him the game and quite possibly the series.
And even in his interview JD didn't mention that he could have taken Flash in the ace match (the normal confident JD would have said that). I think the loss affected him quite a bit. :/
Effort on the other hand is looking like he's going to repeat last year's 25-3 winning record...
On June 02 2010 21:36 Mobius wrote: savior isnt bonjwa anymore? wtf..
He is, but many people want to erase him from their minds after what he did. It saddens us tremendously to know that one of the greatest gamers in history would stoop that low.
Personally? I'll always love his game play and I'll never forget it and couldn't forget it even if I wanted to, but I can't forgive what he did.
Snow this high seemed a bit iffy, but since his wins keep coming it seems that it might be the right place after all. Very glad that Baby is doing so well! Go Baby!
On June 02 2010 19:45 NightOfTheDead wrote: This is such a biased ranking its not even funny. Jaedong winning flawlesly for whole month and overall better player in every way is worse than lucky Bo5 Effort? Did you even see the whole OSL? at the tiebreaker Effort was so bad. Seriously, it was very short-sighted evaluation.
I can't believe we still see posts like this, despite that Effort had an amazing 12 straight wins, including one against Flash going into the OSL finals, and even after Effort has won 7 straight games since the finals, including 3 proleague matches against decent-to-good zergs. You might not agree that, for the past month and a half Effort has been the second best player in the world, but to call his PR placement "such a biased ranking its not even funny" smacks of the very bias and fanboyism of which you are accusing Plexa.
yeah tbh difference between #2 and #3 isn't that huge and effort was going to be one or the other. even if he screws up this isn't nearly as bad as plexa's high ranking of sea last month for instance. we'll see if e.g. snow midas and shine hold up; if they do, this will have been actually an exceptionally strong ranking in my view.
On June 01 2010 07:54 Lucid90 wrote: Baby? Snow? Midas!?! SHINE?!!?!?
While Baby had a decent May I really don't think he's that great of a player, or atleast that he's good enough to beat JD in a boX. Yeah he won one time in a bo3, but he didn't beat JD on great barrier reef, the map beat JD. 4th is a tad bit too high IMO.
So you say that the fact that he would probably lose to the first 3 doesnt warrant a spot at rank 4? Anyway, he didnt loose in may, proved that he wont gonna slump just cause he lost in the leagues (to no other than Flash btw), and other than that won all his games dominantly (Baby vs Great). Anyway i just hope we dont just get another Leta..
baby is favored against almost everybody in broodwar right now. maybe all of the top 3, maybe skyhigh, maybe a couple tosses with PvT specialties. he looked absolutely stellar in games like the ones against great, hyun, and kal.
Great power rank, very fair and I feel it gives an accurate description of where a lot of people are the moment. Really happy to see Snow and Shuttle on the list. Easily two of my favorite Protoss players to watch these days (Shuttle being the favorite, of course.) I really hope Shuttle continues to improve and does well in the upcoming OSL/MSL season. It's always so heartbreaking to watch him cry after losing, but amazing when he wins.
Midas is good Terran, but not very strong, he is just very "Terran" like many of other Terran players, they can beat anyone player in few times if they just play stablely.
He's still the firm favorite to take out anyone on this ranking and that means he's still #1 in the world.
And Jaedong is still the firm favorite to take out anyone in this ranking except for Flash so that means he's.....#3? Seriously? The inconsistencies and bias in these PRs are ridiculous.
He's still the firm favorite to take out anyone on this ranking and that means he's still #1 in the world.
And Jaedong is still the firm favorite to take out anyone in this ranking except for Flash so that means he's.....#3? Seriously? The inconsistencies and bias in these PRs are ridiculous.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"
On June 04 2010 05:19 WWJDD wrote: Well. JD let flash get ahead in the most imba econ cheese in the game. It's mostly scouting fail from JD.
This MSL final proves nothing.
Jaedong went 3 hatch before pool in 2 games last MSL finals and once this finals. When he used the 3 hatch before pool build in the last finals it was genius mind games and strategy. Results in huge games obviously mean something. Please try and be a bit more objective and logical in the future.
On June 03 2010 07:58 SuperArc wrote: Effort is on a 18-2 streak atm, can he beat Flash's 25-3?
11 win streak in ZvZ, only JD has shown such dominance before.
Calm had a 10 win ZvZ streak this year, Kwanro had a 9 win streak.
8 wins, and two of them were vs gorush, that shouldnt even count ^^
better than 3 wins in a row vs shine
haha well shine is 4/4 right now he's at least decent at zvz while gorush prolly went like 4/20 in the last games he played. It'll be pretty exciting to see if effort can break JD's record in the next zvz they play.
but hey actually if I'm not mistaken jaedongs streak was 12 wins:
On June 04 2010 05:19 WWJDD wrote: Well. JD let flash get ahead in the most imba econ cheese in the game. It's mostly scouting fail from JD.
This MSL final proves nothing.
You are just laughable. Do you really think anybody on this forum takes you the slightest bit seriously when you're throwing around JD biased bullshit with that acc name? Gtfo, idiot.
On June 03 2010 10:55 o[twist] wrote: baby is favored against almost everybody in broodwar right now. maybe all of the top 3, maybe skyhigh, maybe a couple tosses with PvT specialties. he looked absolutely stellar in games like the ones against great, hyun, and kal.
Baby's playing well, but to call him a favourite over Flash, Effort, and Jaedong is patently absurd.
On June 03 2010 10:55 o[twist] wrote: baby is favored against almost everybody in broodwar right now. maybe all of the top 3, maybe skyhigh, maybe a couple tosses with PvT specialties. he looked absolutely stellar in games like the ones against great, hyun, and kal.
Baby's playing well, but to call him a favourite over Flash, Effort, and Jaedong is patently absurd.
I think he meant, favourite against everyone EXCEPT top 3 and maybe skyhigh's tvt and the very best /sneakiest PvT'ers.. :O
On June 03 2010 10:55 o[twist] wrote: baby is favored against almost everybody in broodwar right now. maybe all of the top 3, maybe skyhigh, maybe a couple tosses with PvT specialties. he looked absolutely stellar in games like the ones against great, hyun, and kal.
Baby's playing well, but to call him a favourite over Flash, Effort, and Jaedong is patently absurd.
I think he meant, favourite against everyone EXCEPT top 3 and maybe skyhigh's tvt and the very best /sneakiest PvT'ers.. :O
Although personally I'd think he'd smash effort
I am so looking forward to CJ vs WeMade/KT again.
Baby/Flash facing one of Skyhigh/Snow/Effort makes me so exciting.
On June 03 2010 10:55 o[twist] wrote: baby is favored against almost everybody in broodwar right now. maybe all of the top 3, maybe skyhigh, maybe a couple tosses with PvT specialties. he looked absolutely stellar in games like the ones against great, hyun, and kal.
i'm sorry guys, i meant to say "exceptmaybe" etc. e.g., skyhigh, snow and stork or whoever, and maybe the PR top 3 are favored or equal against baby. personally i think baby's TvZ has been a monster recently and i don't think he'd be quite as susceptible to early ling play as flash seems to be, and also he tends more towards dropship play than valk play... so i think, at least in a standard PL match, i'd tend towards baby over effort and maybe over jaedong. but i'm a baby fanatic and always have been, so i specifically excepted this from my formula - or i meant to.
On June 03 2010 10:55 o[twist] wrote: baby is favored against almost everybody in broodwar right now. maybe all of the top 3, maybe skyhigh, maybe a couple tosses with PvT specialties. he looked absolutely stellar in games like the ones against great, hyun, and kal.
He is not favored against any of the top 3.
I think he meant "everyone but the top 3, SkyHigh or the top PvT specialists."
BTW, anyone else starting to watch out for this kid Classic? Kid wins an awful lot.
mmmmm I can't agree with Shine and Shuttle, and I don't think Snow should be so high, but then again, there are few players who have been playing well...
Is Snow the dominant Protoss right now? I think you may be looking too much into the Flash matchup. Flash's versus Protoss was perfect - he was utterly unbeatable. It's significant that Snow beat him. But Flash is only one man. Overall, Protoss are playing fine against Terran; statistically the matchup still favors Protoss. So you might place too much stock in Snow beating a Terran - even if it was Flash.
It is Zerg that are the bane of the Protoss race, as they have always been (except maybe when Bisu shocked the world). And as you said, that is Snow's worst matchup. I strongly believe that the leader of the Protoss race - whether you want to call him the King, the Dragon, or just the best Toss - has to be the best versus Zerg, Is that Snow? Is it Movie, or Kal, or Shuttle? I don't know. But if you don't think it's Snow, then maybe he should not be the highest rank.
Protoss can only prove their worth by mastering Zerg. Flash is just an unstoppable force that can occasionally be slowed down. Snow earned his spot from a high amount of wins (obviously many more than just Flash) but for future discussions I feel it has to be the master of versus Zerg.
On June 03 2010 10:55 o[twist] wrote: baby is favored against almost everybody in broodwar right now. maybe all of the top 3, maybe skyhigh, maybe a couple tosses with PvT specialties. he looked absolutely stellar in games like the ones against great, hyun, and kal.
Baby's playing well, but to call him a favourite over Flash, Effort, and Jaedong is patently absurd.
I think he meant, favourite against everyone EXCEPT top 3 and maybe skyhigh's tvt and the very best /sneakiest PvT'ers.. :O
Although personally I'd think he'd smash effort
Ah, now it makes sense. o, I absolve you of absurdity (patent-wise, at least)
On June 04 2010 13:52 BloodDrunK wrote: Question: why is Shine in the ranking when RorO isn't? he was 10-1 last month with a single loss to JangBi.he's not even on CBNC.why?
No idea, he' deserve ATLEAST CBNC with that record :o
On June 04 2010 13:52 BloodDrunK wrote: Question: why is Shine in the ranking when RorO isn't? he was 10-1 last month with a single loss to JangBi.he's not even on CBNC.why?
No idea, he' deserve ATLEAST CBNC with that record :o
sometimes plexa just completely overlooks certain players, like he did with effort and snow right up until this month and quite a few players in the past but oh well doing the PR must be hard, so many games played..
It has been said a couple of times, but there was nearly no reason EffOrt should have been on the PR, so he was not overlooked, but just playing badly.
That's not really it. Firstly, it's bad form to count offline prelim results as part of a streak since the competition tends to be notably easier than competition in standard leagues. Saying Roro went 10-1 and leaving it at that is misleading. You can't compare that 10-1 with Flash's 18-6, for instance.
The reason why Shine was considered over Roro is that Roro has a reputation as a ZvZ sniper and did nothing to disprove it. The only strong non-Zerg he beat was Puma and that was a ling all-in vs 2 port wraith, which says nothing, really.
And you can't name everyone who had good stats in a particular month on the CBNC list. That would be bad form. You have to make educated guesses about who really is stronger. If Roro does well next month, you'll surely come back bitching, but what if Roro flops? Roro still has something to prove. Next month wait and see.
And Effort and Snow weren't really missed. Up until that re-re-regame, Effort's play was absolute crap. Post re-re-regame, the only games Effort played in April were ZvZ. There wasn't enough there to actually say that Effort had returned to form.
Snow's record going into April wasn't that good and he went 3-1 that month. And yeah, he beat strong players, but: 1.) his PvZ record was crap, and 2.) there was no way of knowing whether or not his wins over Kal and Really were flukes. Snow made the ranking because in May he backed up what he had done in April as being real. And honestly? Snow's current ranking is too high. He's probably the best PvT player in the world, but he has a bit too much to prove in PvZ to be rank 5.
On June 05 2010 02:57 Mortality wrote: That's not really it. Firstly, it's bad form to count offline prelim results as part of a streak since the competition tends to be notably easier than competition in standard leagues. Saying Roro went 10-1 and leaving it at that is misleading. You can't compare that 10-1 with Flash's 18-6, for instance.
The reason why Shine was considered over Roro is that Roro has a reputation as a ZvZ sniper and did nothing to disprove it. The only strong non-Zerg he beat was Puma and that was a ling all-in vs 2 port wraith, which says nothing, really.
And you can't name everyone who had good stats in a particular month on the CBNC list. That would be bad form. You have to make educated guesses about who really is stronger. If Roro does well next month, you'll surely come back bitching, but what if Roro flops? Roro still has something to prove. Next month wait and see.
And Effort and Snow weren't really missed. Up until that re-re-regame, Effort's play was absolute crap. Post re-re-regame, the only games Effort played in April were ZvZ. There wasn't enough there to actually say that Effort had returned to form.
Snow's record going into April wasn't that good and he went 3-1 that month. And yeah, he beat strong players, but: 1.) his PvZ record was crap, and 2.) there was no way of knowing whether or not his wins over Kal and Really were flukes. Snow made the ranking because in May he backed up what he had done in April as being real. And honestly? Snow's current ranking is too high. He's probably the best PvT player in the world, but he has a bit too much to prove in PvZ to be rank 5.
Roro>Shine in ZvT Roro=Shine in ZvZ Roro<Shine in ZvP
He definitely is not just a ZvZ sniper. He's getting results, but each time I think of Roro I think of "mediocre zerg" -_-
I'm not saying they should have gotten good spots I just dont like it when you have some player who's obviously on the rise, is playing some really good games and he's just not even mentioned, not a single word about him. I really dont think it would have been a stretch to at least write something about either of these two and put them into CBNC.
But like I said, doing this isnt easy, if I did I'm sure there'd be some players that I would overlook
On June 05 2010 02:57 Mortality wrote: That's not really it. Firstly, it's bad form to count offline prelim results as part of a streak since the competition tends to be notably easier than competition in standard leagues. Saying Roro went 10-1 and leaving it at that is misleading. You can't compare that 10-1 with Flash's 18-6, for instance.
The reason why Shine was considered over Roro is that Roro has a reputation as a ZvZ sniper and did nothing to disprove it. The only strong non-Zerg he beat was Puma and that was a ling all-in vs 2 port wraith, which says nothing, really.
And you can't name everyone who had good stats in a particular month on the CBNC list. That would be bad form. You have to make educated guesses about who really is stronger. If Roro does well next month, you'll surely come back bitching, but what if Roro flops? Roro still has something to prove. Next month wait and see.
And Effort and Snow weren't really missed. Up until that re-re-regame, Effort's play was absolute crap. Post re-re-regame, the only games Effort played in April were ZvZ. There wasn't enough there to actually say that Effort had returned to form.
Snow's record going into April wasn't that good and he went 3-1 that month. And yeah, he beat strong players, but: 1.) his PvZ record was crap, and 2.) there was no way of knowing whether or not his wins over Kal and Really were flukes. Snow made the ranking because in May he backed up what he had done in April as being real. And honestly? Snow's current ranking is too high. He's probably the best PvT player in the world, but he has a bit too much to prove in PvZ to be rank 5.
Roro>Shine in ZvT Roro=Shine in ZvZ Roro<Shine in ZvP
He definitely is not just a ZvZ sniper. He's getting results, but each time I think of Roro I think of "mediocre zerg" -_-
In ZvT, both have had only mediocre results. Roro's win percentage is a bit higher, but either way it means little. We're essentially comparing someone with ELO peak 2063 vT with ELO peak 2045 vT. Neither player has done anything to show that's going to change any time soon.
Shine can snipe in two match-ups and is on the whole more proven; Roro is a ZvZ sniper (look at his 2010 results for confirmation: ZvZ is his only standout match-up) whose deepest individual league run is getting 2-0'd in the Ro36 of OSL.
On June 05 2010 04:10 Waxangel wrote: Hey guess how I know Flash Bonjwa Theory is dead.
Korean fans stopped talking about it entirely after he lost to effort.
No doubt people will try to frankenstein it back together if Flash makes dual league finals again tho
people people people. People are stupid He makes both finals again and lose one 2-3 and the talk is over.
Not that I care since there is no logic whatsoever in the discussion. It seems bonjwa is more a nostalgia for those who watched in the old days. I watched then too and there was no one more dominating than flash. They made finals consistantly but almost never dual finals and specially never dual finals in a row. Flash has been in all finals for 4 starleagues in a row now, I guess thats not enough... oh well.
If they had those standards consistantly there wouldn't be any bonjwa in the first place.
On June 05 2010 02:57 Mortality wrote: That's not really it. Firstly, it's bad form to count offline prelim results as part of a streak since the competition tends to be notably easier than competition in standard leagues. Saying Roro went 10-1 and leaving it at that is misleading. You can't compare that 10-1 with Flash's 18-6, for instance.
The reason why Shine was considered over Roro is that Roro has a reputation as a ZvZ sniper and did nothing to disprove it. The only strong non-Zerg he beat was Puma and that was a ling all-in vs 2 port wraith, which says nothing, really.
And you can't name everyone who had good stats in a particular month on the CBNC list. That would be bad form. You have to make educated guesses about who really is stronger. If Roro does well next month, you'll surely come back bitching, but what if Roro flops? Roro still has something to prove. Next month wait and see.
And Effort and Snow weren't really missed. Up until that re-re-regame, Effort's play was absolute crap. Post re-re-regame, the only games Effort played in April were ZvZ. There wasn't enough there to actually say that Effort had returned to form.
Snow's record going into April wasn't that good and he went 3-1 that month. And yeah, he beat strong players, but: 1.) his PvZ record was crap, and 2.) there was no way of knowing whether or not his wins over Kal and Really were flukes. Snow made the ranking because in May he backed up what he had done in April as being real. And honestly? Snow's current ranking is too high. He's probably the best PvT player in the world, but he has a bit too much to prove in PvZ to be rank 5.
Roro>Shine in ZvT Roro=Shine in ZvZ Roro<Shine in ZvP
He definitely is not just a ZvZ sniper. He's getting results, but each time I think of Roro I think of "mediocre zerg" -_-
In ZvT, both have had only mediocre results. Roro's win percentage is a bit higher, but either way it means little. We're essentially comparing someone with ELO peak 2063 vT with ELO peak 2045 vT. Neither player has done anything to show that's going to change any time soon.
Shine can snipe in two match-ups and is on the whole more proven; Roro is a ZvZ sniper (look at his 2010 results for confirmation: ZvZ is his only standout match-up) whose deepest individual league run is getting 2-0'd in the Ro36 of OSL.
you rate with stats, I do with performance, roro is a good ZvTer especially with zergs losing to terrans left and right hes doing decently, Shine just sucks in ZvT
On June 05 2010 02:57 Mortality wrote: That's not really it. Firstly, it's bad form to count offline prelim results as part of a streak since the competition tends to be notably easier than competition in standard leagues. Saying Roro went 10-1 and leaving it at that is misleading. You can't compare that 10-1 with Flash's 18-6, for instance.
The reason why Shine was considered over Roro is that Roro has a reputation as a ZvZ sniper and did nothing to disprove it. The only strong non-Zerg he beat was Puma and that was a ling all-in vs 2 port wraith, which says nothing, really.
And you can't name everyone who had good stats in a particular month on the CBNC list. That would be bad form. You have to make educated guesses about who really is stronger. If Roro does well next month, you'll surely come back bitching, but what if Roro flops? Roro still has something to prove. Next month wait and see.
And Effort and Snow weren't really missed. Up until that re-re-regame, Effort's play was absolute crap. Post re-re-regame, the only games Effort played in April were ZvZ. There wasn't enough there to actually say that Effort had returned to form.
Snow's record going into April wasn't that good and he went 3-1 that month. And yeah, he beat strong players, but: 1.) his PvZ record was crap, and 2.) there was no way of knowing whether or not his wins over Kal and Really were flukes. Snow made the ranking because in May he backed up what he had done in April as being real. And honestly? Snow's current ranking is too high. He's probably the best PvT player in the world, but he has a bit too much to prove in PvZ to be rank 5.
Roro>Shine in ZvT Roro=Shine in ZvZ Roro<Shine in ZvP
He definitely is not just a ZvZ sniper. He's getting results, but each time I think of Roro I think of "mediocre zerg" -_-
In ZvT, both have had only mediocre results. Roro's win percentage is a bit higher, but either way it means little. We're essentially comparing someone with ELO peak 2063 vT with ELO peak 2045 vT. Neither player has done anything to show that's going to change any time soon.
Shine can snipe in two match-ups and is on the whole more proven; Roro is a ZvZ sniper (look at his 2010 results for confirmation: ZvZ is his only standout match-up) whose deepest individual league run is getting 2-0'd in the Ro36 of OSL.
you rate with stats, I do with performance, roro is a good ZvTer especially with zergs losing to terrans left and right hes doing decently, Shine just sucks in ZvT
I haven't seen all Roro's games ZvT but I haven't really been impressed by what I have seen.
Either way, it's not very relative. Whether or not he's as good as or better than Shine, he has to prove it and the only way to do so is with results.
On June 04 2010 13:52 BloodDrunK wrote: Question: why is Shine in the ranking when RorO isn't? he was 10-1 last month with a single loss to JangBi.he's not even on CBNC.why?
No idea, he' deserve ATLEAST CBNC with that record :o
sometimes plexa just completely overlooks certain players, like he did with effort and snow right up until this month and quite a few players in the past but oh well doing the PR must be hard, so many games played..
I never overlook players. Effort didn't get PRd last month because his tie-breaker games were terrible. Snow didn't get ranked last month because he had only won like 3 games before the PR was published. Sure he looked promising but it was way to early to put him on the PR (he could have easily turned out like flying did). Roro didn't get featured this month because he's not winning against top line competitors. I mean, he's losing to jangbi and frozen which speaks some volumes about his skill.
On June 05 2010 04:10 Waxangel wrote: Hey guess how I know Flash Bonjwa Theory is dead.
Korean fans stopped talking about it entirely after he lost to effort.
No doubt people will try to frankenstein it back together if Flash makes dual league finals again tho
Man you must've had a field day when Savior lost to Chojja and Oov lost to July.
Neither were called bonjwa at that time.
You Flash fans are way too premature.
Rofl yes they were. Well oov wasn't because it was retroactive, but there wasn't a doubt with either of them, even after they lost. People around here just like to bend over and take it for nostalgia's sake.
And you know what, even if it is premature, my point stands. Oov and savior are still remembered as bonjwas despite multiple out of character losses. How is Flash's losses particularly different?
On June 05 2010 04:10 Waxangel wrote: Hey guess how I know Flash Bonjwa Theory is dead.
Korean fans stopped talking about it entirely after he lost to effort.
No doubt people will try to frankenstein it back together if Flash makes dual league finals again tho
Man you must've had a field day when Savior lost to Chojja and Oov lost to July.
Neither were called bonjwa at that time.
You Flash fans are way too premature.
Rofl yes they were. Well oov wasn't because it was retroactive, but there wasn't a doubt with either of them, even after they lost. People around here just like to bend over and take it for nostalgia's sake.
And you know what, even if it is premature, my point stands. Oov and savior are still remembered as bonjwas despite multiple out of character losses. How is Flash's losses particularly different?
Yeah, you know oov and savior won titles after their losses. Flash most likely will too, but he didnt yet because it didnt happen. So its premature.
Had oov/savior done nothing special after those losses they would have never been called bonjwa.
Ironically Savior's MSL loss season may have contributed more to his aura than any other, because people weighted a ZvZ loss less heavily (due to the "random" perception at the time) and that was the season that he 5-0'd oov.
Perhaps we'll see something similar with Flash and the OSL loss, though the shift here will not be within the same league. Now that he's 3-0'd Jaedong, it completely and permanently murdered the "Flash can't beat JD in a bo5" thoughts. The next time he goes on a mega hot streak (which will be soon as he literally starts one right after the previous one stopped and right now he's just playing PL for the next month+) there won't be the "JD bo5" retorts that have always come up while he was going 88% in PL over 8 months and making all 4 finals.
There's still the Effort loss, and admittedly a "true bonjwa" simply doesn't lose a series when up 2-0 no matter what, but I don't think anyone's thinking "man Flash isn't the favorite against Effort".
Really it has been Jaedong and Jaedong alone that's been blocking Flash from the perception of being bonjwa. Lost in the OSL aftermath was the significance of the 3-0. And it wasn't a close 3-0 either (actually it was close with each game coming down to exactly one moment that could have gone either way if Jaedong had just done one thing better, but it won't be remembered that way). I'm not saying Jaedong can't beat Flash (obviously Jaedong is and always will be capable of beating a player). But the entire dynamic of the argument has potentially changed, and it's just too early to tell.
It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks. Flash is the most dominating progamer ever during this last year.
You can easily compare resluts and find out for yourself. 2 consecutive finals both leagues. But seriously, floating above 2400 ELO for months and months is crazy.
While he's been on avarage 80% total during this year, the old bonjwas never came close except maybe oov with far less games played.
I thought that a commonly agreed criterion for being bonjwa is having 4 golds (traditionally 3 MSLs and 1 OSL, but really they are pretty interchangeable). So until Flash gets that 4th gold shouldn't that discussion be tabled anyway? If he does (likely) then this period would certainly be considered as part of his "reign" but that still wouldn't make him bonjwa right now.
Anyway, I'm hoping that KeSPA introduces some heavily protoss favoured maps soon and restores a tiny bit of balance to the game. I mean, historically terrans have won 22 golds, zerg 18, and protoss only 12. Time for a new protoss golden age already (and that coming from someone who roots for zerg players 90% of the time).
On June 05 2010 18:01 Goragoth wrote: I thought that a commonly agreed criterion for being bonjwa is having 4 golds (traditionally 3 MSLs and 1 OSL, but really they are pretty interchangeable). So until Flash gets that 4th gold shouldn't that discussion be tabled anyway? If he does (likely) then this period would certainly be considered as part of his "reign" but that still wouldn't make him bonjwa right now.
Anyway, I'm hoping that KeSPA introduces some heavily protoss favoured maps soon and restores a tiny bit of balance to the game. I mean, historically terrans have won 22 golds, zerg 18, and protoss only 12. Time for a new protoss golden age already (and that coming from someone who roots for zerg players 90% of the time).
Yeah seriously Protoss maps are needed. And from a Zerg perspective its great, I think, because terran beats zerg and protoss normally beat terran. So if protoss takes out the terrans, it would be good for the zerg players.
On June 04 2010 13:52 BloodDrunK wrote: Question: why is Shine in the ranking when RorO isn't? he was 10-1 last month with a single loss to JangBi.he's not even on CBNC.why?
No idea, he' deserve ATLEAST CBNC with that record :o
sometimes plexa just completely overlooks certain players, like he did with effort and snow right up until this month and quite a few players in the past but oh well doing the PR must be hard, so many games played..
I never overlook players. Effort didn't get PRd last month because his tie-breaker games were terrible. Snow didn't get ranked last month because he had only won like 3 games before the PR was published. Sure he looked promising but it was way to early to put him on the PR (he could have easily turned out like flying did). Roro didn't get featured this month because he's not winning against top line competitors. I mean, he's losing to jangbi and frozen which speaks some volumes about his skill.
Again, I wasn't even talking about putting them in there, but about mentioning them in cbnc. Another example woulda been where violet went something like 8-2 a few months ago and wasn't mentioned there either. (Granted he's been disappointing as of lately but back then it was still a bit disappointing to not at least see him in CBNC)
Also I dont get what you mean by losing to jangbi speaks volumes about his skill: + Show Spoiler +
Nice PR! I do support the Where's Roro? movement. He went 6-1 in PL in May, 8-3 in Round 4, and if you look at heyoka's glorious pie charts in this week's writeup, even with teammates like Baby, Midas and Shine he's produced the most wins for Wemade over the season. Overlooking him is understandable since he's basically the Zerg equivalent of Light -- Invisible Zerg -- but he should at the very least make CNBC next month if he keeps it up.
On June 03 2010 10:55 o[twist] wrote: baby is favored against almost everybody in broodwar right now. maybe all of the top 3, maybe skyhigh, maybe a couple tosses with PvT specialties. he looked absolutely stellar in games like the ones against great, hyun, and kal.
He is not favored against any of the top 3.
I think he meant "everyone but the top 3, SkyHigh or the top PvT specialists."
BTW, anyone else starting to watch out for this kid Classic? Kid wins an awful lot.
The knock on him was that he was just endlessly stomping bad or mediocre players.
On June 05 2010 17:40 StylishVODs wrote: It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks. Flash is the most dominating progamer ever during this last year.
You can easily compare resluts and find out for yourself. 2 consecutive finals both leagues. But seriously, floating above 2400 ELO for months and months is crazy.
While he's been on avarage 80% total during this year, the old bonjwas never came close except maybe oov with far less games played.
On June 03 2010 10:55 o[twist] wrote: baby is favored against almost everybody in broodwar right now. maybe all of the top 3, maybe skyhigh, maybe a couple tosses with PvT specialties. he looked absolutely stellar in games like the ones against great, hyun, and kal.
He is not favored against any of the top 3.
I think he meant "everyone but the top 3, SkyHigh or the top PvT specialists."
BTW, anyone else starting to watch out for this kid Classic? Kid wins an awful lot.
The knock on him was that he was just endlessly stomping bad or mediocre players.
You mean Classic? Yeah, but that's all he's been playing against. Still worth watching to see if he pans out.
If you go back to last month's discussions where I said what I thought the PR would be this month, I'm pretty sure I didn't mention Classic -- exactly for the reason you gave.
On June 05 2010 17:40 StylishVODs wrote: It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks. Flash is the most dominating progamer ever during this last year.
You can easily compare resluts and find out for yourself. 2 consecutive finals both leagues. But seriously, floating above 2400 ELO for months and months is crazy.
While he's been on avarage 80% total during this year, the old bonjwas never came close except maybe oov with far less games played.
Doesn't really need to be discussed..
That's a very misleading argument.
My point is, Flash's winratio + elo+ records and starleague appearances in recent times is unheard of. And now they say the bonjwa talk is over. During this period of dominance.
I don't see whats so misleading about this. Some people think bonjwas in the old days won everything. They didn't.
On June 05 2010 17:40 StylishVODs wrote: It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks. Flash is the most dominating progamer ever during this last year.
You can easily compare resluts and find out for yourself. 2 consecutive finals both leagues. But seriously, floating above 2400 ELO for months and months is crazy.
While he's been on avarage 80% total during this year, the old bonjwas never came close except maybe oov with far less games played.
Doesn't really need to be discussed..
That's a very misleading argument.
My point is, Flash's winratio + elo+ records and starleague appearances in recent times is unheard of. And now they say the bonjwa talk is over. During this period of dominance.
I don't see whats so misleading about this. Some people think bonjwas in the old days won everything. They didn't.
furthermore, most of the past bonjwas were declared so post hoc, so the fact that discussion is dying down about whether flash is bonjwa is worse than moot, it's stupid.
are you people still talking about flash/bonjwa/whatever? RORO went 6-1 in proleague last month, 4-0'd his msl prelims group, then 2-0'd his way through survivor. cant believe this guy is under scrubs like fantasy and shine
On June 05 2010 17:40 StylishVODs wrote: It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks.
I've never seen someone post this much about something he doesn't care about.
Yeah seriously this is getting silly. Some people are so focused on not giving him that name that any loss will do. One loss and you're out. I bet they weren't even there to witness players like savior and iloveoov but rather just heard stories about them.
Bonjwa talk being over is bullshit. He's in the middle of his time where he might be crowned right now. 4 finals in a row, 4000+ kespa, floating on 2400 ELO, defeated his greatest rival 3-0 in the finals, 70% all matchups and roughly 80% all matchups since his domination started a year ago - And now some say his bonjwa run is over? After this, seriously?
I'm not saying he is Bonjwa, I don't know how you define it anymore since he's not named. However if you're going to give one justified reason as to why he shouldn't be Bonjwa it should be that his time of domination has only been a year.
people people people. People are stupid He makes both finals again and lose one 2-3 and the talk is over.
Not that I care since there is no logic whatsoever in the discussion. It seems bonjwa is more a nostalgia for those who watched in the old days. I watched then too and there was no one more dominating than flash. They made finals consistantly but almost never dual finals and specially never dual finals in a row. Flash has been in all finals for 4 starleagues in a row now, I guess thats not enough... oh well.
If they had those standards consistantly there wouldn't be any bonjwa in the first place.
It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks. Flash is the most dominating progamer ever during this last year.
You can easily compare resluts and find out for yourself. 2 consecutive finals both leagues. But seriously, floating above 2400 ELO for months and months is crazy.
While he's been on avarage 80% total during this year, the old bonjwas never came close except maybe oov with far less games played.
Doesn't really need to be discussed..
My point is, Flash's winratio + elo+ records and starleague appearances in recent times is unheard of. And now they say the bonjwa talk is over. During this period of dominance.
I don't see whats so misleading about this. Some people think bonjwas in the old days won everything. They didn't.
Ofc, I could have made this list 1232353462372312 times longer... I don't think you are adressing the key points though. The only reason I can see to refuse him the title is : 1) short dominance (one year) 2) too few titles. I think Flash is bonjwa, in the original sens.. but it would only be faire to give him the title if people admitted that JD was a bonjwa too. But it is not up to us to chose anyway. And the discussion is ridicules imo.
Yeah seriously this is getting silly. Some people are so focused on not giving him that name that any loss will do. One loss and you're out. I bet they weren't even there to witness players like savior and iloveoov but rather just heard stories about them.
Bonjwa talk being over is bullshit. He's in the middle of his time where he might be crowned right now. 4 finals in a row, 4000+ kespa, floating on 2400 ELO, defeated his greatest rival 3-0 in the finals, 70% all matchups and roughly 80% all matchups since his domination started a year ago - And now some say his bonjwa run is over? After this, seriously?
I'm not saying he is Bonjwa, I don't know how you define it anymore since he's not named. However if you're going to give one justified reason as to why he shouldn't be Bonjwa it should be that his time of domination has only been a year.
people people people. People are stupid He makes both finals again and lose one 2-3 and the talk is over.
Not that I care since there is no logic whatsoever in the discussion. It seems bonjwa is more a nostalgia for those who watched in the old days. I watched then too and there was no one more dominating than flash. They made finals consistantly but almost never dual finals and specially never dual finals in a row. Flash has been in all finals for 4 starleagues in a row now, I guess thats not enough... oh well.
If they had those standards consistantly there wouldn't be any bonjwa in the first place.
It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks. Flash is the most dominating progamer ever during this last year.
You can easily compare resluts and find out for yourself. 2 consecutive finals both leagues. But seriously, floating above 2400 ELO for months and months is crazy.
While he's been on avarage 80% total during this year, the old bonjwas never came close except maybe oov with far less games played.
Doesn't really need to be discussed..
My point is, Flash's winratio + elo+ records and starleague appearances in recent times is unheard of. And now they say the bonjwa talk is over. During this period of dominance.
I don't see whats so misleading about this. Some people think bonjwas in the old days won everything. They didn't.
Ofc, I could have made this list 1232353462372312 times longer... I don't think you are adressing the key points though. The only reason I can see to refuse him the title is : 1) short dominance (one year) 2) too few titles. I think Flash is bonjwa, in the original sens.. but it would only be faire to give him the title if people admitted that JD was a bonjwa too. But it is not up to us to chose anyway. And the discussion is ridicules imo.
I find the current discussion pointless. Flash isn't a bonjwa yet, however he is extraordinarily close. This next season will answer the question once and for all. People should just wait and see what happens.
Also Jaedong was never a bonjwa, though I'm not surprised you think he was.
Flash is more dominant than any bonjwa before him and he's more successful in starleagues than BoxeR and has broken every record not related to titles pretty much
That's the only thing separating him from the other bonjwa's. Obviously the most important thing in this "bonjwa debate" is what people consider him to be. It isn't a title with objective standards that one earns, because if it was, Flash would be more qualified than any player than history in my opinion.
Fans now have much higher standards. People point at sAviOr's "dominance" as being this untouchable thing, but Flash has clearly surpassed that and some. His statistical dominance and win rate is so far above anyone elses that it isn't even arguable on a numerical level that anyone was ever more dominant than Flash is now. Has he been consistently great his whole career? Qualifying for every OSL since his debut as a progamer, winning the OSL at 15 while simultaneously revolutionizing TvP and continuing to be among the top 2 terrans since his run in 2008 is what I call pretty consistent. In fact, there is little question in my mind that Flash has been the #1 terran SINCE his OSL run in Bacchus 08, despite Fantasy's brief period of more success.
The only thing anyone has over Flash is starleague title numbers, and that's it. If you ask me, 4 medals in 2 seasons along with a record breaking and revolutionary starleague win at the age of 15 is a pretty damn impressive rep sheet.
I'm not arguing for Flash being bonjwa, that's up for the fanbase at large in Korea to decide. If he gets his golden mouse this upcoming season, you'd be absolutely delusional to think he lacks anything the other four bonjwas had. For the most part, he already has, which proves that there is no objective standard that puts one into the status of bonjwa.
On June 05 2010 17:40 StylishVODs wrote: It doesn't matter who's bonjwa or not. The term sucks. Flash is the most dominating progamer ever during this last year.
You can easily compare resluts and find out for yourself. 2 consecutive finals both leagues. But seriously, floating above 2400 ELO for months and months is crazy.
While he's been on avarage 80% total during this year, the old bonjwas never came close except maybe oov with far less games played.
Doesn't really need to be discussed..
That's a very misleading argument.
My point is, Flash's winratio + elo+ records and starleague appearances in recent times is unheard of. And now they say the bonjwa talk is over. During this period of dominance.
I don't see whats so misleading about this. Some people think bonjwas in the old days won everything. They didn't.
I don't think the bonjwa talk is over and I think that Flash's performance was very much what I would expect of a bonjwa. But this talk of Flash being most dominant ever is very, very misleading.
Flash's win ratio actually isn't unheard of. As you yourself admitted, Oov's was similar. Furthermore, Flash's win ratio is bolstered by >80% wins in proleague in the past 12 months (compared to 75-76% wins in individual league). There was a time when Savior was winning 73ish% of his individual league games and 80% of his proleague games, which isn't really outside of statistical error, and may even be compared favorably when you take into account the maps. (Yes, I know that Flash's strategy on Katrina makes up for this, but the point is that Savior was fighting that uphill battle when his win rates were at their best, while current maps have been fine for Terran.)
In other words, Flash's win ratio is comparable. Not really better or worse. It's what I'd expect from a bonjwa candidate.
For Boxer and NaDa the stats were lower, true, but they were only playing individual league games. I would also point out that at the time, their win records were unheard of. As far as I know, NaDa is actually the first player in history to achieve better than 70% win rates in all three matches at the same time over any extended length of time (read as: years).
I have two points to make about this: 1.) The deeper you get into individual leagues, the higher the chances that you will play one of your toughest opponents. This is where top players are most likely to drop games. 2.) As Starcraft becomes better and better understood, builds become more and more streamlined and it becomes easier and easier for top players to spot cheese. If you look at the very top player of each race from any given time period, their win rates have been increasing a tiny bit over time. This is because the chance that you will be hit with something you're completely unprepared to deal with has decreased. Build order losses still exist of course, but the very nature of what defines a build order loss has changed.
Now, regarding ELO, you answered that yourself: Flash plays more games. Add in the fact that ELO has inflated a little over time. Add in the fact that, unlike the past bonjwas, Flash already had a very high ELO when he entered his current dominance.
Bottom line: it takes a number of games for ELO to "converge" up (OR down, assuming a player has lost skill) to what it should be. I'm using the term converge loosely since this process is random, not deterministic, but the point remains.
Of course your original argument also mentioned that Flash's results are special because he wins so often while playing more games. But I would cite point (2) I made above combined with the fact that the opponents most capable of beating Flash (Effort, Jaedong, Leta, etc.) also have similarly busy proleague schedules to say this: since styles of game play have on the whole converged to certain "standard" styles, for the most part Flash only needs to focus on overcoming those standard styles, rather than focusing on beating each player he faces individually. Only for his chief competitors does he particularly need to focus on them as individuals.
Actually, I would use this argument to make a point in Flash's favor: I don't regard TvZ as Flash's weak point. The reason why his TvZ always seems behind his TvT and TvP is because there is less convergence in that match-up to a set standard. Zergs these days have experimented a lot with different timings and a lot of strategies that had gone obsolete (like 9 pool) are now back in the mainstream.
Back-to-back dual finals is a first I believe, yes, but it's not like the other bonjwas haven't set similar records. NaDa won 4 golds in 3 seasons, gold grand slamming with a GhemTV SL victory as well, and ultimately made 10 OSL/MSL finals appearances. Oov has a perfect undefeated record in Starleague finals. Savior appeared in 5 MSL finals in a row.
Again, I would expect a bonjwa to do something spectacular like this.
Conclusions: 1.) Flash is definitely walking the bonjwa road. The achievements next to his name are very similar to what our past bonjwas have done. 2.) He hasn't surpassed the title, as his fans like to believe. I'm tempted to say he's earned it, but as has been said repeatedly for years now: if there's any debate, then it hasn't been earned. 3.) A point I have made repeatedly: the most important criteria for judging bonjwa worthiness is performance and records against S-class opponents. This is where Flash lost momentum, but I don't think he should be discarded from the running -- that's silly.
How is Flash not doing awesomely against S-class opponents in your opinion? Since his reign as the clear #1 on the scene began in October he's 7-3 against JD (the second best player out there) and I can't think of anyone who's been Top 5 during this period who has a good record vs him.
Yeah I agree with alot of what you're saying, but arguing that it's easier to spot cheese nowadays can also lead to the conclusion that player are generally better now aswell. Comparing games like that from now and in the past is thus very hard to do.
Same as the argument for only being in induvidual leagues gives the better player (in this case the bonjwas) more time to practice for each game to play to their full potential.
between 09-05-20 and 10-05-20 Flash a had a total record of 80.6%. 129 wins - 31 losses . There has been one bonjwa close to this record, iloveoov with about 79% winratio . 72 wins - 19 losses.
And iloveoov was the most dominant of the bonjwas in terms of winratio. If you compare to Savior for example who during his most dominant year was 76.19% with 48 - 15 losses.
So if you put this together with him making dual finals twice and being the youngest player ever to achieve that and such a dominating year of starcraft, it's not hard to see why I react when people say the debate is now over.
Maybe I overreacted abit, but he only lacks in titles so far. In all other ways he has actually surpassed, although not so much over iloveoovs crazy 2003-04, other bonjwas.
Flash has made it to both finals twice in a row, carving through the top players like they were nothing. He just 3-0'd Jaedong in one of the most dominant finals I've ever seen.
Flash made a name for himself by dominating s-class players and he has come back showing that he is a good cut above the rest. Jaedong is sitting on the edge of Flash's universe.
Jaedong was as statistically dominant as the bonjwas as well, both in titles and win %. Flash has been more dominant in win %, but not in # of titles yet.
First, to those who ask how Flash is "not doing well" against S-class players, I would say that you're putting words into my mouth. He is doing well against them and I'd argue that he looks very bonjwa to me.
But the SC fanbase on the whole seems a little less convinced. His 4 losses to Effort and last season's loss to Jaedong seem to stand out against him in the eyes of many fans. By comparison, NaDa did not lose a bo5 until after he gold grand slammed, and Savior's only two bo5 losses were to Chojja, who eventually had a losing record against Savior by the time Bisu dethroned Savior.
Well, another season of Flash's current level of dominance should shut the doubters up. I think he will be crowned.
On June 06 2010 06:08 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah I agree with alot of what you're saying, but arguing that it's easier to spot cheese nowadays can also lead to the conclusion that player are generally better now aswell. Comparing games like that from now and in the past is thus very hard to do.
In absolute skill, yes, current SC players are better. But don't forget that the knowledge we have of SC today had to be figured out by someone originally. The current level of skill among progamers rests on the backs of those who came before them.
Same as the argument for only being in induvidual leagues gives the better player (in this case the bonjwas) more time to practice for each game to play to their full potential.
But this is the misconception I want to point out: When Flash faces Effort in an bo5, he's also facing someone burdened with a heavy Proleague schedule. Since the burden is similar, it should not be considered.
And yes, Flash did have a busier schedule, but that was because he was running deep into two leagues at the same time, which has been done before in the past by the bonjwas.
between 09-05-20 and 10-05-20 Flash a had a total record of 80.6%. 129 wins - 31 losses . There has been one bonjwa close to this record, iloveoov with about 79% winratio . 72 wins - 19 losses.
Statistically, this difference in win rates is not very significant. 72-19 is 79.1%, 72-18 is already 80%. At that point the win percentages are so high and the games are so few in number that 1-2 games difference can mean a lot.
And iloveoov was the most dominant of the bonjwas in terms of winratio. If you compare to Savior for example who during his most dominant year was 76.19% with 48 - 15 losses.
Yes, this is true, but again, raw win rates is not the only thing to consider in these kinds of arguments. Maps, opponents, etc., all matter a lot as well.
So if you put this together with him making dual finals twice and being the youngest player ever to achieve that and such a dominating year of starcraft, it's not hard to see why I react when people say the debate is now over.
NaDa was of similar age when he gold grand slammed. He had just turned 18 when he won both OSL and MSL in the same season. In fact, even if Flash wins both OSL and MSL next season, he will not be the youngest player to have won both leagues at the same time.
Maybe I overreacted abit, but he only lacks in titles so far. In all other ways he has actually surpassed, although not so much over iloveoovs crazy 2003-04, other bonjwas.
He hasn't really surpassed them, is my point. He's playing on par with them. He has the highest peak 1-year win percentage, sure, but not by that much, and his bo5 record is worse than any of them except for maybe Boxer.
Flash looks bonjwa like, but most dominant ever? I wouldn't go that far. Check it:
One of the things about bonjwas is that it's not really possible to call any one of them "most dominant." As I said earlier, they each have left their own stamps. Boxer is behind the others in titles and win percentages, but in the history of Starcraft nobody has had a greater impact on the game. NaDa is our only gold grand slammer, and the youngest ever winner of both leagues simultaneously, as well as the only player to have managed to rise to the top during the reigns of the other bonjwas. Oov was, until now, the player with greatest win percentage ever. And his active manipulations of the metagame brought an entirely new dynamic to Starcraft. He was completely undefeated in Starleague finals. Savior had the bo5 accomplishments and dominance over S-class players that nobody thought possible, bringing Zerg out of its dark age and ultimately overcoming some horribly imbalanced maps. Oov, NaDa, Boxer, Midas, Casy, Hwasin and Iris all fell to him in bo5's -- with the possible exception of Iris, I would rate all of those players among the top 10 all time TvZers. Nal_Ra and Reach fell as well. Chojja too. The most difficult list of opponents overcome.
So you see? It's not "wow look, highest win percentage, most dominant, debate over and done!" It's more like: pick your poison. Either way? The enemy is fucked.
Now Flash has come onto the scene, reversing the balance of TvP, standing out as the star Terran when for the first time ever Terran is not the most dominant, surpassing Oov's record win percentage. This is the road to bonjwa.
NaDa wasn't of similar age he was 3 years older which is a HUGE HUGE difference in StarCraft. People also seem to be ignoring how much easier it was to win titles back then, considering the ease of their schedules and the time they had to practice for each game. Winning two SL's months apart is a joke compared to weeks apart.
It's really shitty to hold Flash up and say "Well NaDa did this and he was bonjwa so if Flash can he isn't and never will be until he does."
We live in a very different time when it is much harder to dominate on that level. Flash has proven us wrong and dominated as hard as the bonjwas of the past during a time in which players are better, competition is fiercer, and schedules are more packed than they have ever been in BroodWar history. Then he loses one out of two finals and everyone shits on him? Unbelievable.
i did some calculations last year and the ELO points had only inflated in the system approximately 27 points per player.
If you include the points entering the system since then which is likely no more than 10... and you subtract them from Flash's ELO peak he is still BY FAR the most dominant player ever.
Regarding the lower win rates of the past bonjwa's:
Yes, the older players had it easier because they had less games (no proleague or less proleague), but they also had to play harder opponents more often as they advanced further in leagues.
While you can debate the merits of this I personally have always seen these to cancel out for the most part. Yes, you're playing harder opponents but you have more practice time.
The fact that Flash can keep up 80% WHILE playing proleague and dual leaguing simultaneously should not be dismissed as he gets "easy" proleague games to pad his stats. He is that damn good.
FWIW Flash is playing at the "level" of bonjwa -- maybe even better than some of the past bonjwas. The only difference (IMO) is that he's not really the undisputed king with JD kind of hanging around still grabbing titles + the fact that JD still has more titles than him.
If Flash can win at least 1 league next season and keep JD from winning one (either by getting help from someone or by defeating him himself) then I would definitely be open to adding him to the list.
Fact is that 2 golds, and 2 silvers in 2 starleague seasons is AMAZING in itself, and his stats are already that of bonjwa level except a bit above over that period of time for MORE games than the previous bonjwas. Thus, you could make the argument now. I will choose to hold off for now on that though.
NaDa was of similar age when he gold grand slammed. He had just turned 18 when he won both OSL and MSL in the same season. In fact, even if Flash wins both OSL and MSL next season, he will not be the youngest player to have won both leagues at the same time.
Really? Nada was 18 years and about three months old when he won his OSL. Flash's birthday, when he turns 18, is next month. Are the finals in four months? I'm not sure of the exact dates but it seems like Flash'll be a little younger if he does do it.
On June 06 2010 07:37 Mortality wrote: He hasn't really surpassed them, is my point. He's playing on par with them. He has the highest peak 1-year win percentage, sure, but not by that much, and his bo5 record is worse than any of them except for maybe Boxer.
Arguably, this is because Flash is *playing* more Bo5s than any of them, and the biggest indicator of that is consecutive double finals. Remember how long it took for Savior to actually qualify for the OSL (even though he did win when he finally qualified)? You can't lose Bo5s that you aren't playing.
On June 06 2010 07:51 DoctorHelvetica wrote: NaDa wasn't of similar age he was 3 years older which is a HUGE HUGE difference in StarCraft.
NaDa had just turned 18 when he gold grand slammed. Flash is about to turn 18 on July 5th.
People also seem to be ignoring how much easier it was to win titles back then,
I'm sure the players who won Starleagues back then would be thrilled to know how "easy" it was. Is that why Boxer has more 2nd place finishes than 1st? Is that why Yellow never won a Starleague? I hope you're not trying to imply that they are crappy players who don't compare to the top players of today...?
considering the ease of their schedules and the time they had to practice for each game.
Except that your opponents also have that same luxury of taking that same amount of time to prepare. And today, top players all have busy Proleague schedules. So long as it's the same for all the top players, it doesn't really matter.
Winning two SL's months apart is a joke compared to weeks apart.
Is it? Metagame can change quickly and in today's Starcraft you are battling metagame trends more so than players as individuals. Truly, dual finals is impressive by any standards, but back-to-back championships is not a "joke" compared to ANY feat ever achieved in the history of Starcraft.
It's really shitty to hold Flash up and say "Well NaDa did this and he was bonjwa so if Flash can he isn't and never will be until he does."
Never said that. Again, don't put words into my mouth. That's the second time you've done it in as many posts.
We live in a very different time when it is much harder to dominate on that level. Flash has proven us wrong and dominated as hard as the bonjwas of the past during a time in which players are better, competition is fiercer, and schedules are more packed than they have ever been in BroodWar history. Then he loses one out of two finals and everyone shits on him? Unbelievable.
You're conveniently ignoring the fact that Broodwar metagame has also changed substantially. In comparison to today, strategies in the past were very directionless. Those strategies acquired direction through the tireless efforts of our favorite heroes, past and present.
If Starcraft is so much harder to dominate today, then why do Bisu, Jaedong and Flash account for the vast majority of titles since the fall of Savior? Toss in Stork and Jangbi and now you have a list of the vast majority of people who have made finals appearances.
You've conveniently chosen to ignore that while yes, what separates a winner from a loser has decreased, metagaming has evolved so that the better player is more likely to win than ever before in the past. This counter-balances the increased competition.
Also, how so am I shitting on him when I have repeatedly said that I think he's walking the bonjwa road and that I believe he probably deserves the title for all that he's done so far?
i did some calculations last year and the ELO points had only inflated in the system approximately 27 points per player.
Did I not say that there other reasons as well besides ELO inflation as well? Maybe something having to do with more games played? Maybe something to do with Flash already having a high ELO rating when he entered peak form? Maybe, just maybe, combining these factors has helped Flash secure such a high rating?
Truly Flash's ELO peak is spectacular, but it's not as compelling in the argument of "most dominant ever" as you want it to be.
NaDa was of similar age when he gold grand slammed. He had just turned 18 when he won both OSL and MSL in the same season. In fact, even if Flash wins both OSL and MSL next season, he will not be the youngest player to have won both leagues at the same time.
Really? Nada was 18 years and about three months old when he won his OSL. Flash's birthday, when he turns 18, is next month. Are the finals in four months? I'm not sure of the exact dates but it seems like Flash'll be a little younger if he does do it.
There's usually about a 1-2 week gap between OSL offline prelims and the actual OSL. Then OSL runs for about 3 and a half months.
It will come down to a matter of days, but I think NaDa will hold that title. We'll have to see the schedule when it comes out to be sure.
He hasn't really surpassed them, is my point. He's playing on par with them. He has the highest peak 1-year win percentage, sure, but not by that much, and his bo5 record is worse than any of them except for maybe Boxer.
Flash looks bonjwa like, but most dominant ever? I wouldn't go that far. Check it:
One of the things about bonjwas is that it's not really possible to call any one of them "most dominant." As I said earlier, they each have left their own stamps. Boxer is behind the others in titles and win percentages, but in the history of Starcraft nobody has had a greater impact on the game. NaDa is our only gold grand slammer, and the youngest ever winner of both leagues simultaneously, as well as the only player to have managed to rise to the top during the reigns of the other bonjwas. Oov was, until now, the player with greatest win percentage ever. And his active manipulations of the metagame brought an entirely new dynamic to Starcraft. He was completely undefeated in Starleague finals. Savior had the bo5 accomplishments and dominance over S-class players that nobody thought possible, bringing Zerg out of its dark age and ultimately overcoming some horribly imbalanced maps. Oov, NaDa, Boxer, Midas, Casy, Hwasin and Iris all fell to him in bo5's -- with the possible exception of Iris, I would rate all of those players among the top 10 all time TvZers. Nal_Ra and Reach fell as well. Chojja too. The most difficult list of opponents overcome.
So you see? It's not "wow look, highest win percentage, most dominant, debate over and done!" It's more like: pick your poison. Either way? The enemy is fucked.
Now Flash has come onto the scene, reversing the balance of TvP, standing out as the star Terran when for the first time ever Terran is not the most dominant, surpassing Oov's record win percentage. This is the road to bonjwa.
Youngest player to win leagues simultaneously?
Hes the ONLY player to win both leagues at the same time. That makes him the youngest, oldest, sexiest, ugliest, and most asian to win both star leagues simultaneously.
TBH I've never liked the "It's much harder to dominate now" argument, it just doesn't hold water in my eyes. Yes all the players are better and are consistent, but for their time so were players back then. It's a bit of a reach, but look at the Olympics. Every year OR and WR 's get broken and the competition gets better and better. But you still have superstar athletes who can dominate the field. The idea that the time of Bonjwa's is gone or that nobody can dominate like that is just wrong, we just haven't had one in a while.
As for Flash, 1 more title in my eyes and I'm ready to grant him the title (because as everyone knows only the opinion of a white US resident matters in such affairs). Anyone who looks down on his SL losses just isn't being reasonable. Flash has played 10 BO5's in the last 2 seasons and is 8-2. Further he's done it while dragging a middle of the road team into first place. Since the beginning of his reign he has redefined TvZ and TvP while maintaining a strong TvT. His 2 BO5 losses are very apparent because they happened in finals, but compare that to previous Bonjwa's who generally lost before the finals. As for the JD must be gone for Flash to be Bonjwa argument I think it's rubbish as well. Boxer, Nada, and Oov were all around at near the same time. Make the argument that Boxer and Nada's reigns were technically earlier all you want they all still made SL finals at the same time. The scene can tolerate multiple Bonjwa's at the same time, the fact that JD is still good therefore Flash cannot be Bonjwa has no basis.
i did some calculations last year and the ELO points had only inflated in the system approximately 27 points per player.
Did I not say that there other reasons as well besides ELO inflation as well? Maybe something having to do with more games played? Maybe something to do with Flash already having a high ELO rating when he entered peak form? Maybe, just maybe, combining these factors has helped Flash secure such a high rating?
Truly Flash's ELO peak is spectacular, but it's not as compelling in the argument of "most dominant ever" as you want it to be.
I don't buy it if that's your reasoning.
He was playing much better than the former people did before they were dominant, so how is that a mark against his high ELO rating?
It just means he was consistently good before be because insanely dominant. If anything that's a plus.
Again, more games? That means less practice time. There's always the trade off between playing more games with more preparation vs. playing less games with less preparation. While they are incomparable there are pros and cons to each -- not just pros to playing more games.
On June 06 2010 20:36 p14c wrote: He was so close to 3-0 Effort...damn! 3-0 Effort, 3-0 Jaedong that would have been quite an achievement..
That's not true.
As said both by Jaedong and Flash, the MSL finals would have been different if Flash won the OSL.
It would be true if MSL finals were before OSL finals (since a single game would've decided getting two 3-0).
It's been discussed before. Superarc tends to agree with you but it's a load of crap. Flash came close, you can't deny it.
Do you really believe that if Flash had not moved out his units in game 3 that way and sealed the game, he would have played so much worse vs jaedong? He would have used the same strategies and Jaedong would have too. The results would most likely be the same.
3-0 in one and 2-0 into loss in another is very close.
ok ok i'll wait a little while before complaining but seriously with only a few games played only jaedong, baby, and fantasy haven't lost yet, and kal in particular is 1-3
This will be his last hurrah. Before Blizzard shuts down programing forever or JD will lose 5 games in a row for the first time and then call it quits.
On June 07 2010 03:39 o[twist] wrote: ok ok i'll wait a little while before complaining but seriously with only a few games played only jaedong, baby, and fantasy haven't lost yet, and kal in particular is 1-3
kal is 3-1? and just qualified for the MSL? I'd say he's performing well.
Common, saying that Flash was close to winning 3-0 3-0 is like saying that Best was close to beating Julyzerg in that OSL finals. I mean if he would have scouted that all-in in the first game the entire series would have been different. Flash almost won both leagues which is imba gosu ofc. But saying that he almost won both league 3-0 3-0 is... childish? Even if he didn't fall into that trap in game 3, how can you be sure he would have won?
On June 07 2010 18:14 Elroi wrote: Common, saying that Flash was close to winning 3-0 3-0 is like saying that Best was close to beating Julyzerg in that OSL finals. I mean if he would have scouted that all-in in the first game the entire series would have been different. Flash almost won both leagues which is imba gosu ofc. But saying that he almost won both league 3-0 3-0 is... childish? Even if he didn't fall into that trap in game 3, how can you be sure he would have won?
I think he would, but what I think about it doesn't matter.
If you get 3-0 in one SL and 2-0 in another you're as close to 3-0 3-0 as you can get. I don't understand why people argue about this. How can you get closer?
Childish or not. Hey I wish flash would have 3-0'd both leagues, he was close of doing so. And then get a reply: No he was never close. just doesn't add up.
fact is, Flash made both finals and he was close to 3-0ing both. but he didn't.
On May 28 2010 15:44 Vegetarian Wolf wrote: Last words for the fans? -I’m sorry that I lost the OSL, and couldn’t repay the support of the fans. But nothing can stop me, I hope no one worries. Even if all other players fall down, Flash will still be standing up right here.
On June 07 2010 21:00 SuperArc wrote: OH MY GOD!! Flash has lost another ace match, and again in his most dominant matchup!!!
I am really starting to think that Flash has a burnout.
That's not true. He was 14CCed again and this time couldn't catch up. It gets really tough against lesser players once they start gambling with risky builds because that's the only way they can beat you. Flash played a great ace match, but it wasn't enough.
On June 07 2010 21:00 SuperArc wrote: OH MY GOD!! Flash has lost another ace match, and again in his most dominant matchup!!!
I am really starting to think that Flash has a burnout.
That's not true. He was 14CCed again and this time couldn't catch up. It gets really tough against lesser players once they start gambling with risky builds because that's the only way they can beat you. Flash played a great ace match, but it wasn't enough.
Assuming you're waaaaay better than your opponent, cathing up to 14cc isn't that bad.
On June 07 2010 21:00 SuperArc wrote: OH MY GOD!! Flash has lost another ace match, and again in his most dominant matchup!!!
I am really starting to think that Flash has a burnout.
That's not true. He was 14CCed again and this time couldn't catch up. It gets really tough against lesser players once they start gambling with risky builds because that's the only way they can beat you. Flash played a great ace match, but it wasn't enough.
That might be true, but four months ago Flash would have still crushed Ruby.
Terrans like I said improved their TvT a lot, like zergs did when JD was raping everyone left and right.
On June 07 2010 21 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 07 2010 21 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:24 Fenrax wrote:
On June 07 2010 21:00 SuperArc wrote: OH MY GOD!! Flash has lost another ace match, and again in his most dominant matchup!!!
I am really starting to think that Flash has a burnout.
That's not true. He was 14CCed again and this time couldn't catch up. It gets really tough against lesser players once they start gambling with risky builds because that's the only way they can beat you. Flash played a great ace match, but it wasn't enough.
Assuming you're waaaaay better than your opponent, cathing up to 14cc isn't that bad.
It is, if the opponent plays a great game (all credit to Ruby).
On June 07 2010 21 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 07 2010 21 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:24 Fenrax wrote:
On June 07 2010 21:00 SuperArc wrote: OH MY GOD!! Flash has lost another ace match, and again in his most dominant matchup!!!
I am really starting to think that Flash has a burnout.
That's not true. He was 14CCed again and this time couldn't catch up. It gets really tough against lesser players once they start gambling with risky builds because that's the only way they can beat you. Flash played a great ace match, but it wasn't enough.
Assuming you're waaaaay better than your opponent, cathing up to 14cc isn't that bad.
It is, if the opponent plays a great game (all credit to Ruby).
This. Agreed, Ruby played an incredible game. It was like as if another player was playing instead, such was the contrast between his performance in the game as compared to the previous set against FlaSh.
On June 07 2010 21:00 SuperArc wrote: OH MY GOD!! Flash has lost another ace match, and again in his most dominant matchup!!!
I am really starting to think that Flash has a burnout.
That's not true. He was 14CCed again and this time couldn't catch up. It gets really tough against lesser players once they start gambling with risky builds because that's the only way they can beat you. Flash played a great ace match, but it wasn't enough.
That might be true, but four months ago Flash would have still crushed Ruby.
Terrans like I said improved their TvT a lot, like zergs did when JD was raping everyone left and right.
At first I thought you were trolling, but apparently you're ready to herald the downfall of Flash, which is just silly.
This is the state of BW today, last summer and fall, Jaedong looked unstoppable, but only for a season or two. This winter and spring, it's been Flash's turn, but reasonably expecting him to continue putting up the results he put up is a little insane. This isn't Flash getting any worse, or Jaedong getting any worse, and it's not necessarily anyone else getting that much better.
BW is a battle of mind games just as much as it's a battle of apm and mechanics. In BW today, eventually you're going to get figured out to a degree.
***
I told the Flash-bonjwa crowd to calm down, and the same is true with the ridiculous "Flash-slumping?!?" idea that's come out recently. TL can have frightening mood-swings sometimes.
Yeah Flash has hit a rut since beating Jaedong -- reminds me of Jaedong after winning most of his titles, where he hit a mini-loss streak. I think they need to get in the right mentality after they do something that makes them too content in their abilities.
On June 07 2010 21:00 SuperArc wrote: OH MY GOD!! Flash has lost another ace match, and again in his most dominant matchup!!!
I am really starting to think that Flash has a burnout.
That's not true. He was 14CCed again and this time couldn't catch up. It gets really tough against lesser players once they start gambling with risky builds because that's the only way they can beat you. Flash played a great ace match, but it wasn't enough.
That might be true, but four months ago Flash would have still crushed Ruby.
Terrans like I said improved their TvT a lot, like zergs did when JD was raping everyone left and right.
At first I thought you were trolling, but apparently you're ready to herald the downfall of Flash, which is just silly.
This is the state of BW today, last summer and fall, Jaedong looked unstoppable, but only for a season or two. This winter and spring, it's been Flash's turn, but reasonably expecting him to continue putting up the results he put up is a little insane. This isn't Flash getting any worse, or Jaedong getting any worse, and it's not necessarily anyone else getting that much better.
BW is a battle of mind games just as much as it's a battle of apm and mechanics. In BW today, eventually you're going to get figured out to a degree.
***
I told the Flash-bonjwa crowd to calm down, and the same is true with the ridiculous "Flash-slumping?!?" idea that's come out recently. TL can have frightening mood-swings sometimes.
How am I ready to herald the downfall of Flash by saying that terrans improved their TvTs which is true?
On June 07 2010 21:00 SuperArc wrote: OH MY GOD!! Flash has lost another ace match, and again in his most dominant matchup!!!
I am really starting to think that Flash has a burnout.
That's not true. He was 14CCed again and this time couldn't catch up. It gets really tough against lesser players once they start gambling with risky builds because that's the only way they can beat you. Flash played a great ace match, but it wasn't enough.
That might be true, but four months ago Flash would have still crushed Ruby.
Terrans like I said improved their TvT a lot, like zergs did when JD was raping everyone left and right.
At first I thought you were trolling, but apparently you're ready to herald the downfall of Flash, which is just silly.
This is the state of BW today, last summer and fall, Jaedong looked unstoppable, but only for a season or two. This winter and spring, it's been Flash's turn, but reasonably expecting him to continue putting up the results he put up is a little insane. This isn't Flash getting any worse, or Jaedong getting any worse, and it's not necessarily anyone else getting that much better.
BW is a battle of mind games just as much as it's a battle of apm and mechanics. In BW today, eventually you're going to get figured out to a degree.
***
I told the Flash-bonjwa crowd to calm down, and the same is true with the ridiculous "Flash-slumping?!?" idea that's come out recently. TL can have frightening mood-swings sometimes.
It's not a frightening mood swing imo. The guy has almost won every single game he has played for months ofc people are going to go into wtf-mode when he loses repetedly in proleague. Even if it is completely natural for BW, it is huge. The coming weeks will be important: can he brake this mini-slump?
Flash is most definitely having the worst period since his era of dominance began, with all these ace losses + the loss vs Effort. But there's no need to worry yet, there's not a doubt in my mind that he's still the best player in the world. It's just a little sad that he couldn't keep up the super-mega-ultra-hyper epic domination.
On June 07 2010 21:00 SuperArc wrote: OH MY GOD!! Flash has lost another ace match, and again in his most dominant matchup!!!
I am really starting to think that Flash has a burnout.
That's not true. He was 14CCed again and this time couldn't catch up. It gets really tough against lesser players once they start gambling with risky builds because that's the only way they can beat you. Flash played a great ace match, but it wasn't enough.
That might be true, but four months ago Flash would have still crushed Ruby.
Terrans like I said improved their TvT a lot, like zergs did when JD was raping everyone left and right.
At first I thought you were trolling, but apparently you're ready to herald the downfall of Flash, which is just silly.
This is the state of BW today, last summer and fall, Jaedong looked unstoppable, but only for a season or two. This winter and spring, it's been Flash's turn, but reasonably expecting him to continue putting up the results he put up is a little insane. This isn't Flash getting any worse, or Jaedong getting any worse, and it's not necessarily anyone else getting that much better.
BW is a battle of mind games just as much as it's a battle of apm and mechanics. In BW today, eventually you're going to get figured out to a degree.
***
I told the Flash-bonjwa crowd to calm down, and the same is true with the ridiculous "Flash-slumping?!?" idea that's come out recently. TL can have frightening mood-swings sometimes.
How am I ready to herald the downfall of Flash by saying that terrans improved their TvTs which is true?
It's unclear that Terrans have actually improved their TvT's. They probably have improved but it's not nearly as obvious as it was with ZvZ. Terran hasn't dominated hard enough for people to be spending that much additional time on TvT in my opinion.
What Terrans have improved at is taking chances against Flash and having them pay off.
- Fantasy had a very well-designed cheese, complemented by running into Flash's proxy Barracks resulting in an autowin, nothing to say about that.
- Hiya actually had a great opening, then Flash pulled the game all the way back to where he had an advantage, then Hiya had one last-ditch attack which worked out because Flash skipped Dropships and went straight to BCs. In fairness to Hiya, Flash skipped Dropships because Hiya got such a big early lead that Flash elected to spend all his gas on units. It was a really smart move by Hiya but given that he was outplayed after getting a huge early advantage (to the point where it looked like he might be able to overrun Flash right there and then) it was a less impressive win than people are making it out to be (though the winning blow was very, very impressive, as was the handling of the Wraith transition in general). Hiya even gave one of those "ugh I might have lost this game =(" sighs that was caught on camera around the 70% mark of the game.
- Ruby went untouched 14cc against Fac CC and then Flash played fairly badly the rest of the game. He seemed to lack practice on those positions on Grand Line, as he had no plan for securing a third gas after losing out on the battle for the gas inbetween the mains. He also fought some questionable (borderline stubborn "I will win this because I'm Flash") battles when trying to secure the center, even though Ruby had a clear build order advantage and thus had a clear army advantage as well. He could have won those battles with one more lucky mine or something but I bet if it wasn't Ruby he would have conceded the line more readily and done a better job securing the bottom right main and splitting the map (he ended up not being able to take EITHER gas at the bottom right main).
Even in the last 30 days alone, Flash still went 3-1 against Ruby with all 3 wins being bonafide total victories. Watch them again - they were absolute start to finish domination. I wouldn't say Ruby got that much better at TvT (1-9 last 10 with the only win being the last one against Flash haha) but he did play one very good game.
On June 08 2010 18:02 jalstar wrote: Bisu, 10/01/08 to 06/07/09 - 93 wins, 30 losses, 2 titles Flash, 10/01/09 to 06/07/10 - 103 wins, 25 losses, 2 titles, 2 silvers
Kind of a stretch to say one is bonjwa and one isn't, or even that one stretch is significantly better than the other.
Yeah when you compare 8 months.
But if you compare their best year ratio, flash is 80% while Bisu is 70%. There's a big difference and Bisu is fallen, flash is not. Bisu never made dual starleague final back to back in such a dominating fashion. Had bisu continued playing like he did I'm sure he'd be a serious bonjwacontender.
Also it's very misleading saying 2silver+gd vs 2gold. Rather say 4 finals vs 2 finals. Pretty big difference.
Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
But I agree, the only reason not to call Flash bonjwa is because his dominance haven't been so much over a year now..
On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
Shorter? I'm comparing the exact same amount of time.
On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
Shorter? I'm comparing the exact same amount of time.
Yes, you compare 8months of dominance to make it equal while one players dominance stretches over a longer period of time. Hence unfair.
It's like comparing Efforts 25-3 streak with Flash's 25-3 streak and say both dominated the same... except not so exaggerated.
On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
Shorter? I'm comparing the exact same amount of time.
Yes, you compare 8months of dominance to make it equal while one players dominance stretches over a longer period of time. Hence unfair.
It's like comparing Efforts 25-3 streak with Flash's 25-3 streak and say both dominated the same... except not so exaggerated.
Are you saying Flash's dominance was longer? If I add games before 10/1/09 his win rate goes down, not up.
On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
Shorter? I'm comparing the exact same amount of time.
Yes, you compare 8months of dominance to make it equal while one players dominance stretches over a longer period of time. Hence unfair.
It's like comparing Efforts 25-3 streak with Flash's 25-3 streak and say both dominated the same... except not so exaggerated.
Are you saying Flash's dominance was longer? If I add games before 10/1/09 his win rate goes down, not up.
He's talking about the caliber of players Flash raped vs that of the players Effort did.
The ratio of games won is not a linear indicator of strength -- the ratio of losses is more accurate (taking things to their extreme, a player who wins 99% of his games is about 10x better than a player who wins 90% of his games, not 10% better). Over an extended period, there's definitely a difference between losing 1 game out of 4 and losing 1 game out of 5. Or 1 out of 6, if you make a more favorable cutoff for Flash, taking the same number of games as Bisu starting from Oct 1.
Not that Bisu's period of domination wasn't impressive. It was definitely on par with past bonjwas, and not far behind Flash.
On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
Shorter? I'm comparing the exact same amount of time.
Yes, you compare 8months of dominance to make it equal while one players dominance stretches over a longer period of time. Hence unfair.
It's like comparing Efforts 25-3 streak with Flash's 25-3 streak and say both dominated the same... except not so exaggerated.
Are you saying Flash's dominance was longer? If I add games before 10/1/09 his win rate goes down, not up.
rewind ten months back and Flash's win rate goes from 80,5% to 74,4% Bisu's goes from 74,8 to 65,8
Oh, you can actually rewind all the way to October '08 and see that Flash holds same win rate as Bisu held in his 8 months of dominance for a whooping year longer
Snow is a little overrated in this PR, Flash and JD have shown to us that they can overcome few looses without permanent slump more than a few times, BW scene we know today is not so far away from the scene we had few years ago, just players are different from each other and it was always like that (see simple sample of Plexa is sooo good july -> effort, oov -> flash, and I think that after 10 more years of progaming only a troll will compare Flash's TERRAN like boxer, nada, oov streak to "Leader of a disrespected race, victim of an imbalanced matchup" PROTOSS Bisu's). The point is:
In Korean Progaming it is much more important what one player consists of (mental strength (in bo5 and months), mechanics, timings, aggressiveness, buildings) than what year did he play, if You use word generation it can only apply to changing game style (go MacroModeMagicarp!).
So written above being still secondary: Don't get so excited and yell that flash slumped after he lost 2 TvT's, same as JD and even more ridiculously Snow, cheers.
On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
But I agree, the only reason not to call Flash bonjwa is because his dominance haven't been so much over a year now..
If Flash is bonjwa why is Jaedong not? 7/8 finals is an incredible feat and his accomplishments rank up there next to the great Nada. The requirements for bonjwa are so arbitrary that it seems to me different requirements are set for different programers. Bisu's revolution is probably the greatest of protoss achievements but he never gets mentioned in the similar breath of oov or savior and his accomplishments are just as illustrious as Flash's.
On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
But I agree, the only reason not to call Flash bonjwa is because his dominance haven't been so much over a year now..
If Flash is bonjwa why is Jaedong not? 7/8 finals is an incredible feat and his accomplishments rank up there next to the great Nada. The requirements for bonjwa are so arbitrary that it seems to me different requirements are set for different programers. Bisu's revolution is probably the greatest of protoss achievements but he never gets mentioned in the similar breath of oov or savior and his accomplishments are just as illustrious as Flash's.
Hey if I had to chose Jaedong would already have been crowned bonjwa boxer nada oov savior jaedong flash , i don't know about bisu though..
On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
But I agree, the only reason not to call Flash bonjwa is because his dominance haven't been so much over a year now..
If Flash is bonjwa why is Jaedong not? 7/8 finals is an incredible feat and his accomplishments rank up there next to the great Nada. The requirements for bonjwa are so arbitrary that it seems to me different requirements are set for different programers. Bisu's revolution is probably the greatest of protoss achievements but he never gets mentioned in the similar breath of oov or savior and his accomplishments are just as illustrious as Flash's.
Preface: I am not a fanboy of either player and in fact both have shattered mine and Bisu's heart on multiple occasions.
He really should be in my opinion. In 3 seasons he made 3 finals and won 3 starleagues combined with a WCG win. However, people say he isn't as dominant as Savior/Nada/Oov were so he can't be bonjwa. But he is a bonjwa of mind games and great play bo5 series, this is why if he is something like 5 for 7 in starleague finals. People on this site I believe have made up their own subjective standards of dominance and following the starleague victory pattern.
Maybe I myself am not being objective about this and he may not be a bonjwa, but he will go down as two of the best players of all time at least to me and so will Flash. It is too hard to compare eras in my opinion and although him and Flash may not dominate everyone, but they definitely dominate certain aspects of the game. I only caught the tail end of Savior's bonjwa era, but there have been many games where I would just say damn only Flash or only Jaedong just like I said only Savior when he defeated Iris on neo araknoid. This is just my two cents, but I think Flash and Jaedong are judged too harshly based on the modern standards of professional starcraft.
Personally, I would put Flash, Jaedong, AND Bisu ahead of Savior, and this isn't just because of the recent news—I've always thought Savior got too much praise for what he did.
On June 09 2010 07:34 SimonB wrote: Personally, I would put Flash, Jaedong, AND Bisu ahead of Savior, and this isn't just because of the recent news—I've always thought Savior got too much praise for what he did.
Too much praise? Crushing terrans in a time where T>>Z and the maps were even more T>Z?
On June 09 2010 07:34 SimonB wrote: Personally, I would put Flash, Jaedong, AND Bisu ahead of Savior, and this isn't just because of the recent news—I've always thought Savior got too much praise for what he did.
Too much praise? Crushing terrans in a time where T>>Z and the maps were even more T>Z?
How can you not praise that enough?
Both map and race advantage have been way overemphasized.
Bisu's PvZ revolution was far more impressive IMO. That has almost always been the most unfair match up (and unfortunately has returned as such lately), and Bisu completely changed it.
Well at the end of the day, when thinking back on bw years from now. People will remember boxer, nada, oov, savior, bisu, jaedong and flash as the really big names of starcraft. Some of them get "bonjwa" title because of nostalgia and some wont but it doesn't matter.
On June 09 2010 07:34 SimonB wrote: Personally, I would put Flash, Jaedong, AND Bisu ahead of Savior, and this isn't just because of the recent news—I've always thought Savior got too much praise for what he did.
Too much praise? Crushing terrans in a time where T>>Z and the maps were even more T>Z?
How can you not praise that enough?
Both map and race advantage have been way overemphasized.
Bisu's PvZ revolution was far more impressive IMO. That has almost always been the most unfair match up (and unfortunately has returned as such lately), and Bisu completely changed it.
Well look at reverse temple. Overall 62% in TvZ. He went 6-1 on it. Without those games, it was 70% TvZ. And those games were against the best TvZ players of that time (Midas, Nada, Iris, Casy...). But yes, in the case of sAviOr, statistics are not that impressive. His gameplay really was, especially in series.
On June 09 2010 07:34 SimonB wrote: Personally, I would put Flash, Jaedong, AND Bisu ahead of Savior, and this isn't just because of the recent news—I've always thought Savior got too much praise for what he did.
Too much praise? Crushing terrans in a time where T>>Z and the maps were even more T>Z?
How can you not praise that enough?
Both map and race advantage have been way overemphasized.
Bisu's PvZ revolution was far more impressive IMO. That has almost always been the most unfair match up (and unfortunately has returned as such lately), and Bisu completely changed it.
sAviOr's management game and 3 hatch style was way more revolutionary than Bisu's Forge FE style. I don't consider Bisu a revolutionary player. All he's done throughout his career is emulate smarter protoss players and win on the behest of his superior mechanics.
On June 09 2010 07:34 SimonB wrote: Personally, I would put Flash, Jaedong, AND Bisu ahead of Savior, and this isn't just because of the recent news—I've always thought Savior got too much praise for what he did.
Too much praise? Crushing terrans in a time where T>>Z and the maps were even more T>Z?
How can you not praise that enough?
Both map and race advantage have been way overemphasized.
Bisu's PvZ revolution was far more impressive IMO. That has almost always been the most unfair match up (and unfortunately has returned as such lately), and Bisu completely changed it.
sAviOr's management game and 3 hatch style was way more revolutionary than Bisu's Forge FE style. I don't consider Bisu a revolutionary player. All he's done throughout his career is emulate smarter protoss players and win on the behest of his superior mechanics.
The mere fact you credit Bisu with forge-fe makes me cringe.
On June 09 2010 07:34 SimonB wrote: Personally, I would put Flash, Jaedong, AND Bisu ahead of Savior, and this isn't just because of the recent news—I've always thought Savior got too much praise for what he did.
Too much praise? Crushing terrans in a time where T>>Z and the maps were even more T>Z?
How can you not praise that enough?
Both map and race advantage have been way overemphasized.
Bisu's PvZ revolution was far more impressive IMO. That has almost always been the most unfair match up (and unfortunately has returned as such lately), and Bisu completely changed it.
sAviOr's management game and 3 hatch style was way more revolutionary than Bisu's Forge FE style. I don't consider Bisu a revolutionary player. All he's done throughout his career is emulate smarter protoss players and win on the behest of his superior mechanics.
The mere fact you credit Bisu with forge-fe makes me cringe.
On June 09 2010 07:34 SimonB wrote: Personally, I would put Flash, Jaedong, AND Bisu ahead of Savior, and this isn't just because of the recent news—I've always thought Savior got too much praise for what he did.
Too much praise? Crushing terrans in a time where T>>Z and the maps were even more T>Z?
How can you not praise that enough?
Both map and race advantage have been way overemphasized.
Bisu's PvZ revolution was far more impressive IMO. That has almost always been the most unfair match up (and unfortunately has returned as such lately), and Bisu completely changed it.
sAviOr's management game and 3 hatch style was way more revolutionary than Bisu's Forge FE style. I don't consider Bisu a revolutionary player. All he's done throughout his career is emulate smarter protoss players and win on the behest of his superior mechanics.
The mere fact you credit Bisu with forge-fe makes me cringe.
he didn't ... he understands the Bisu copied better strategies to win..
but i do disagree. Savior was deemed "unbeatable" in his time. NO protoss could TOUCH him. Terrans were the only ones who stood a chance and the cream of the crop at that time (hwasin, casy, midas) all crumbled before him.
On June 09 2010 07:34 SimonB wrote: Personally, I would put Flash, Jaedong, AND Bisu ahead of Savior, and this isn't just because of the recent news—I've always thought Savior got too much praise for what he did.
Too much praise? Crushing terrans in a time where T>>Z and the maps were even more T>Z?
How can you not praise that enough?
Both map and race advantage have been way overemphasized.
Bisu's PvZ revolution was far more impressive IMO. That has almost always been the most unfair match up (and unfortunately has returned as such lately), and Bisu completely changed it.
sAviOr's management game and 3 hatch style was way more revolutionary than Bisu's Forge FE style. I don't consider Bisu a revolutionary player. All he's done throughout his career is emulate smarter protoss players and win on the behest of his superior mechanics.
The mere fact you credit Bisu with forge-fe makes me cringe.
he didn't ... he understands the Bisu copied better strategies to win..
but i do disagree. Savior was deemed "unbeatable" in his time. NO protoss could TOUCH him. Terrans were the only ones who stood a chance and the cream of the crop at that time (hwasin, casy, midas) all crumbled before him.
Actually he never really mastered ZvZ... His zvp was awesome, but imo he did far too many hydrabusts
So basically, in a Bo5. No protoss would win over him. Some terrans could challange him (top4 or so). Many zergs could beat him.
What would be more interesting than talking about bonjwa (which is basically a yes or no question with undefined parameters) is talking about where players stand in a hypothetical SC "hall of fame". Something like the Pyramid (from Bill Simmons' "The Book of Basketball") would be pretty entertaining to construct.
Tier 1 (the Pantheon, in other words the greatest players of all time): Boxer, Nada, Oov, Savior, Bisu, Jaedong, Flash
Tier 2 (elite players, players who were at or near the top for a long time - kind of like guys who would have made "first team NBA" many times, but in the end they simply don't make the cut for the pantheon) Examples: Garimto, Kingdom, Yellow, Reach, Nal_Ra, July, Chojja, Stork, I probably left a few guys off and I don't know that much about the early early days
Tier 3 (great players, "perennial all stars", players who might have been the best or one of the best in their race for awhile) Examples: Xellos (upper end of tier 3), Anytime, Midas? Hwasin (lower end of tier 3)? GoRush
debating whether a guy like Sea should be here would be interesting, same goes for Free (tier 5 in my opinion) Kal (belongs here in my opinion), Best (belongs here in my opinion), etc., Effort probably belongs here for his monster 2009 plus title but I'm sure some people disagree. I'd also put Fantasy and Jangbi here for back to back silvers and prolonged periods of being a top player.
Tier 4a (champions who in the end, weren't as good as players in tier 3 who might not have ever won a title) Examples: Sync, Mind, ForGG, Calm, Luxury, GGPlay (this one might be controversial), come to mind, as well as many many more ... does Casy belong here or above?
Tier 5 for players who were good for a long time, great for maybe a short time or not at all, but have some combination of short term results and long term longevity Examples: guys like Kwanro come to mind, Iris? (maybe Iris belongs in tier 3?) Yarnc, Light, Much, FBH
The beauty of this is that it's not that black and white, most players who were near the top for awhile should probably be listed somewhere but the question is where. For example, where does Leta belong?
On June 09 2010 07:34 SimonB wrote: Personally, I would put Flash, Jaedong, AND Bisu ahead of Savior, and this isn't just because of the recent news—I've always thought Savior got too much praise for what he did.
Too much praise? Crushing terrans in a time where T>>Z and the maps were even more T>Z?
How can you not praise that enough?
Both map and race advantage have been way overemphasized.
Bisu's PvZ revolution was far more impressive IMO. That has almost always been the most unfair match up (and unfortunately has returned as such lately), and Bisu completely changed it.
The PvZ Revolution is over. Black reaction has triumphed
On June 09 2010 07:34 SimonB wrote: Personally, I would put Flash, Jaedong, AND Bisu ahead of Savior, and this isn't just because of the recent news—I've always thought Savior got too much praise for what he did.
Too much praise? Crushing terrans in a time where T>>Z and the maps were even more T>Z?
How can you not praise that enough?
Both map and race advantage have been way overemphasized.
Bisu's PvZ revolution was far more impressive IMO. That has almost always been the most unfair match up (and unfortunately has returned as such lately), and Bisu completely changed it.
sAviOr's management game and 3 hatch style was way more revolutionary than Bisu's Forge FE style. I don't consider Bisu a revolutionary player. All he's done throughout his career is emulate smarter protoss players and win on the behest of his superior mechanics.
The mere fact you credit Bisu with forge-fe makes me cringe.
he didn't ... he understands the Bisu copied better strategies to win..
but i do disagree. Savior was deemed "unbeatable" in his time. NO protoss could TOUCH him. Terrans were the only ones who stood a chance and the cream of the crop at that time (hwasin, casy, midas) all crumbled before him.
In Savior's prime, people used to say "it is obvious to me that Savior is on a whole different level from everybody else." In fact that was a truism. There was, at least in terms of perception, a massive gap between Savior and #2 and it lasted a long time, at least until Iris took him to five games in the OSL semifinal. This was never the case for Flash and Jaedong, much less Bisu.
On June 11 2010 01:01 StylishVODs wrote: Savior was never the far best zvz'er though. Not even the best.
I don't agree. He initially had a ZvZ weakness which he overcame when he beat Chojja 3-1 in that MSL semifinal (and went on to beat some zerg in the finals). After that, he was the favorite against anyone in ZvZ, just as he had been for a long time in the other matchups.
On June 11 2010 01:01 StylishVODs wrote: Savior was never the far best zvz'er though. Not even the best.
I don't agree. He initially had a ZvZ weakness which he overcame when he beat Chojja 3-1 in that MSL semifinal (and went on to beat some zerg in the finals). After that, he was the favorite against anyone in ZvZ, just as he had been for a long time in the other matchups.
Yup. After Chojja won his MSL he started to play worse, then Savior became the undisputed best ZvZ. Chojja was the only Zerg who came close to Savior in the first part of his reign, in the latter part no one came close to him.
On June 08 2010 18:02 jalstar wrote: Bisu, 10/01/08 to 06/07/09 - 93 wins, 30 losses, 2 titles Flash, 10/01/09 to 06/07/10 - 103 wins, 25 losses, 2 titles, 2 silvers
Kind of a stretch to say one is bonjwa and one isn't, or even that one stretch is significantly better than the other.
Yeah when you compare 8 months.
But if you compare their best year ratio, flash is 80% while Bisu is 70%. There's a big difference and Bisu is fallen, flash is not. Bisu never made dual starleague final back to back in such a dominating fashion. Had bisu continued playing like he did I'm sure he'd be a serious bonjwacontender.
Also it's very misleading saying 2silver+gd vs 2gold. Rather say 4 finals vs 2 finals. Pretty big difference.
This comment really made me lol. 2 Gold and 2 Silvers is more misleading than 4 finals vs 2 finals wtf? It is the same only that 2 gold and 2 silvers is more detailed information than 4 vs 2 finals. You still need to get to the finals in order to get a silver.... obviously.. (not that I disagree or agree with the rest of the discussion, I dont care if people call flash bonjwa or not)
Yeah he wins, and sometimes he wins twice, but equally often he loses and occasionally loses twice. Once in a while, it's reasonable to assume he'll do decently in a tournament, but he'll never reach the upper echelon. If great has a good month, can we just ignore it? We know he'll follow it up with a terrible month. great just isn't good, and he isn't bad. It's time we made peace with that.
On June 08 2010 18:02 jalstar wrote: Bisu, 10/01/08 to 06/07/09 - 93 wins, 30 losses, 2 titles Flash, 10/01/09 to 06/07/10 - 103 wins, 25 losses, 2 titles, 2 silvers
Kind of a stretch to say one is bonjwa and one isn't, or even that one stretch is significantly better than the other.
Yeah when you compare 8 months.
But if you compare their best year ratio, flash is 80% while Bisu is 70%. There's a big difference and Bisu is fallen, flash is not. Bisu never made dual starleague final back to back in such a dominating fashion. Had bisu continued playing like he did I'm sure he'd be a serious bonjwacontender.
Also it's very misleading saying 2silver+gd vs 2gold. Rather say 4 finals vs 2 finals. Pretty big difference.
This comment really made me lol. 2 Gold and 2 Silvers is more misleading than 4 finals vs 2 finals wtf? It is the same only that 2 gold and 2 silvers is more detailed information than 4 vs 2 finals. You still need to get to the finals in order to get a silver.... obviously.. (not that I disagree or agree with the rest of the discussion, I dont care if people call flash bonjwa or not)
Yeah it should be obvious but the way he put it justified him saying "Kind of a stretch to say one is bonjwa and one isn't" when really it isn't because 4 finals >>> 2 finals in the same amount of time.
On June 12 2010 18:05 SuperArc wrote: Wow according to an interview with Artosis/Hwani this OSL could be the last BW OSL ever.
So meaning this is Flash's last chance to get a Golden Mouse.
artosis also thinks really is the second-best terran
Yep, exactly.
Artosis isn't a journalist. He goes out of his way to use superlatives and generate hype. He does some good stuff for the scene but you can always tell he's not-so-subtly pushing his own agenda at all times.
na snows rank is well deserved, hes been taking games off really high quality players
i feel like this month could be classic's coming out party aswell, he hasnt played vs top notch players like snow has but his style is super solid, really impressive
On June 13 2010 06:36 Holgerius wrote: Snow need to start showing he can deliver against a non-T opponent as well though. =/
I'd love to see Stats make an appearance soon. He's shown solid play in all MU's.
Since 2010 Snow has been solid against other races too. If you count offline games too hes just a beast, but even if not 50% PvP and 40% PvZ isnt that bad.
Its just his 84% vT win rate outshines everything.
I wouldn't worry too much about Snow's win rate. With only 10 games played in PvZ, 40% or 60% doesn't really say a lot. As for his PvP, again there are too few games, and most of the losses are from 2009 and/or against dragons anyway. I'm sure he can show some results in both matchups over time.
(That said, even in PvZ, a 40% *sustained* win rate *is* bad. Except Snow, every top ELO protoss down to Movie has a rate of at least 50%.)
Stats is looking really good, not least the fact that he's 12-6 against zerg minus Jaedong. And not just looking at the numbers, his play in some of his games has been really impressive (he has also done terrible things in some of the games he lost... hopefully that's just lack of experience).
Speaking of the monster, it's less than one week short of a year now since Jaedong lost his last ZvP that wasn't against Stork.
On June 13 2010 09:33 okum wrote: Speaking of the monster, it's less than one week short of a year now since Jaedong lost his last ZvP that wasn't against Stork.
Holy shit that's insane... Although it's funny how few Protosses JD plays compared to the other two races but.. man that's still pretty ridiculous
On June 13 2010 09:33 okum wrote: Speaking of the monster, it's less than one week short of a year now since Jaedong lost his last ZvP that wasn't against Stork.
Holy shit that's insane... Although it's funny how few Protosses JD plays compared to the other two races but.. man that's still pretty ridiculous
That's because JD always makes it far into starleagues where there are no protosses T_T
On June 13 2010 09:33 okum wrote: Speaking of the monster, it's less than one week short of a year now since Jaedong lost his last ZvP that wasn't against Stork.
Holy shit that's insane... Although it's funny how few Protosses JD plays compared to the other two races but.. man that's still pretty ridiculous
That's because JD makes starleagues where there are no protosses T_T
On June 13 2010 15:24 SuperArc wrote: Flash is 3-3 this month where all losses mattered, his wins didnt.
-If this continues- Flash might lose #1.
If this continues, he'd still get the benefit of the doubt coming off double finals IMO. Not like jaedong and effort are playing much better. Can see baby rising in the rank over effort though.
Edit: If Effort continues his current losing streak which is 2 games and counting.
On June 13 2010 15:24 SuperArc wrote: Flash is 3-3 this month where all losses mattered, his wins didnt.
-If this continues- Flash might lose #1.
If this continues, he'd still get the benefit of the doubt coming off double finals IMO. Not like jaedong and effort are playing much better. Can see baby rising in the rank over effort though.
Edit: If Effort continues his current losing streak which is 2 games and counting.
Since when was 3-3 better than 3-0? OZ is 2-1 this round and KT is 0-3, all losses a directly because of Flash.
I never said 3-3 was better than 3-0. Flash will simply stay higher on the rank because of the double finals. And again, I didn't mention JD, because personally I think he could rise to #2 based on his current performance. Has to wrest it from effort though.
On June 13 2010 15:38 POWEROUTAGE wrote: I never said 3-3 was better than 3-0. Flash will simply stay higher on the rank because of the double finals. And again, I didn't mention JD, because personally I think he could rise to #2 based on his current performance. Has to wrest it from effort though.
With a score of like 3-3 Flash would surely get the benefit of doubt from pretty much everyone.
But what if he goes 7-7 (seven losses that matter greatly)? And Jaedong something like a confident 13-2?
I would have no problems with Flash staying #1, but he has to play better than this. He has lost the last four ace match games and this could potentially allow STX to claim #1 rank in proleague. If he had the same results but won on the ace matches then I would still put him #1 on my power rank, but he is losing some very crucial games.
On June 13 2010 15:38 POWEROUTAGE wrote: I never said 3-3 was better than 3-0. Flash will simply stay higher on the rank because of the double finals. And again, I didn't mention JD, because personally I think he could rise to #2 based on his current performance. Has to wrest it from effort though.
With a score of like 3-3 Flash would surely get the benefit of doubt from pretty much everyone.
But what if he goes 7-7 (seven losses that matter greatly)? And Jaedong something like a confident 13-2?
With the conditions you stated of course his no.1 position would be in contention. But again, what are the chances of that?
On June 13 2010 15:45 setzer wrote: I would have no problems with Flash staying #1, but he has to play better than this. He has lost the last four ace match games and this could potentially allow STX to claim #1 rank in proleague. If he had the same results but won on the ace matches then I would still put him #1 on my power rank, but he is losing some very crucial games.
The thing is, Flash isn't playing badly at all even in spite of those losses. His 3 ace match losses : + Show Spoiler +
vHiya well played game in my opinion and only decided when flash's valks got sniped, he had chances to win until that point
vBaby again, amazingly high level TvT where Flash just got out multitasked
. Even in those losses, he played at a very high level and it's not as if he lost to scrubs. I'd be tempted to call this bad luck, especially in the first 2 cases. And I don't get why STX is brought into this discussion, they're doing terrible as well.
i love that live report. pages and pages of "oh god baby just getting rolled i hate watching this" "flash always one step ahead one expansion ahead" "flash just a-moving through baby, he never has enough" "flash with a huge army, baby with one round of macro to defend" into "oh my god baby is everywhere what's happening i can't even follow it"
Flash deserves a fuckton of benefit of doubt and I still think he's the best player in the world, but he really, really, really needs to stop dropping ace games like this. It's about to go beyond the point where you can just write them off easily as simply missteps. He might lose #1 this month.
On June 13 2010 15:34 setzer wrote: all losses a directly because of Flash.
How can you say this with a straight face? If it wasn't for Flash those matches wouldn't go to the Ace in the first place.
When you are unarguably the best player people have unreasonable high expectations on your performance. You may not understand this example I am going to make, but here it is: during the Superbowl Payton Manning played superbly, but his team lost and people will always remember the interception that he threw and point to that, despite the great defensive play and mediocre route Reggie Wayne ran. It comes with the position. Brett Favre will always be blamed for his loss in the previous game to the Saints because of his interception. Superstars will always be put on extremely high pedestals and with that comes some blame when things get rough.
With the ace match your team either wins or loses depending on the outcome. That is much different than just sets 1-4. His opponents played to a level people probably did not expect in those losses, but the fact is, Flash still has four ace losses in a row and he is criticized for it.
I think when using results/statistics like that, the games behind those results have to be taken into account. Flash is undeserving of this criticism in my humble opinion, simply because he played amazing in spite of those losses. The wins are to the credit of the opposition than to the fault of Flash who in fact can hardly be faulted. Especially in the power rank when the performance of a player in-game is gauged, not solely results. Whether or not is it an ace match he lost is then much more irrelevant, especially when considering in the overall scheme of things it won't be significant at all if KT ends up first at the end of the round. And that is highly probable as well.
Baby should be in the top 3 if he keeps it up, maybe even top 2 or #1 if Flash doesn't recover from his mini-slump (unlikely, though. Flash will likely recover and earn #1 easily)
Baby is gonna be first next month; He has been unbeatable as of late. Either him or Jaedong. Wether people finally realized how to snipe Flash, people need to remember how good the losing games was, he never falled apart in a game and lost while doing the stupidiest mistakes. (Some could make a statement for fifth game of the OSL, but imo Flash did well considering that it was 2 hatch speedling vs 14cc.) I am not certain what Plexa will say about it though, I mean, if we change the subject the KT¨s other leg, Stats, who only lost games to JD (where he almost came back) and Baby... And you can't fault any for losing those games, imo the Chintoss will go to the top 10. Also, KT has taken over SKT1's zergfail trend as of lately -_- Ever since Hoejja went wild in the WL, KT Zergs has been FAILING.
On June 14 2010 00:48 WWJDD wrote: Flash is looking mighty shaky lately. He hasn't mounted his trademark comebacks as inevitably as they used to happen. I call mini-slump.
I prefer the term "ace match slump" as Flash has been playing fine outside of them. Having said that, I'm confident Flash will bounce back in time for his next Starleague games.
Flash might be getting a little complacent after finally beating Jaedong. His TvT does need a little reworking (for instance, in all of his losses he either didn't get Dropships or was forced to not get them until very late ... Dropship-heavy style is what he's best at but if the maps aren't favoring that kind of play then he needs to retool his style a bit).
Personally I don't think it's a huge deal. Every player (even the Dong) has gone through these "win one lose one" stretches except Flash in the last 11 months, which is what makes it so shocking now that it's finally happened. Flash's ELO finally dropped to 2363, in other words below the second best ELO of all time (yes, Flash has been above it for like the last 7 months or so).
The thing with Flash is, even though his drive to get better is indisputable, it's also pretty clear that as a byproduct of him being so damn good at figuring out a matchup, it also takes him awhile to realize that he needs to re-figure out a matchup. His one size fits all TvP style was so invincible for so long in 2008 that it literally took him nearly a year to realize that it no longer worked. Can you blame him? He won almost all his games on Katrina and Medusa (at one point Flash was 7-0 on Medusa and all other T's were 7-34 or something absurd in TvP).
Similarly, his TvT has been so good for so long (hard to argue with 22 straight wins - the longest streak in any matchup ever as Oov's was actually 18-0 TvZ not 27-0 like is commonly believed). But a combination of opponents getting smarter and taking bigger risks (14cc or proxy, 14cc or proxy, 14cc or proxy), as well as maps where Dropship heavy play is not the optimal style (Odd Eye, Judgement Day), he has dropped some games.
You'll notice he almost never loses a TvT on a map that he's played 4 or more TvT's on (Skyhigh and Leta on Moon Glaive being the only notable exceptions - ... Fantasy's win on MP doesn't quite count because it was essentially a strict build order win combined with pure luck in encountering Flash's proxy Barracks as a byproduct of wanting to build his proxy Factory along that route).
I think Flash has simply been neglecting his TvT. OSL/MSL semi-finals were both TvP. OSL/MSL finals were both TvZ. I can only imagine the insane amount of practice he devoted to those match-ups, it's only natural that it came at the cost of his TvT falling behind.
On June 15 2010 16:59 J1.au wrote: I think Flash has simply been neglecting his TvT. OSL/MSL semi-finals were both TvP. OSL/MSL finals were both TvZ. I can only imagine the insane amount of practice he devoted to those match-ups, it's only natural that it came at the cost of his TvT falling behind.
you said the same thing two weeks ago.
How long does Flash need to get back in shape then? lol
On June 15 2010 16:59 J1.au wrote: I think Flash has simply been neglecting his TvT. OSL/MSL semi-finals were both TvP. OSL/MSL finals were both TvZ. I can only imagine the insane amount of practice he devoted to those match-ups, it's only natural that it came at the cost of his TvT falling behind.
you said the same thing two weeks ago.
How long does Flash need to get back in shape then? lol
Flash has probably been taking it easy since the MSL finals. I doubt he has been practising as hard as he usually does. However I'm sure he will be mad as hell after losing to BaBy. Mainly because BaBy is shaping up to be an amazing Terran who might even challenge Flash. I'm sure this loss will spur Flash on to practice harder and to rethink his current TvT.
It's just a shame that STX doesn't have any good Terrans.
JD is something like 13-1 this month (TLPD is not updated it seams). With his only loss coming from a random zvz (not to take anything away from Great). Hope he takes back the 1 spot next month!
#1 should have been Flash and #2 JD since 8 month now. I see no reason to keep on negating the fact that these two stand on top of the BW world only because player xyz goes 15-2 in some month. BaBy and Effort seem to be catching up, but they are still not there.
Elroi, he's 9-1 to be exact. These 5 undocumented wins are over random scrubs and Reach from offline qualifiers, so they hardly count for anything at all. Coincidently, Great was the only good player jd faced there ;P
As for Flash, I don't think he is under pressure to get back into shape or something like that. He can pretty much relax at this point and lose couple more games, cause there's no serious matches upcoming for him anytime soon (though he won't be so reckless for sure). He has worked so hard past months in both individual leagues and team league, now he can finally rest till the end of the July when second round of play-offs will begin. I don't think it would be fair to take away his #1 spot in such situation.
If Flash just keeps on delivering for the rest of the month he should remain at #1 IMO. The dual finals and 3-0 rape vs JD should still keep him there. The distance between them has been reduced a lot recently though, and I wouldn't be too upset if JD was at the top.
On June 16 2010 21:49 Elroi wrote: JD is something like 13-1 this month (TLPD is not updated it seams). With his only loss coming from a random zvz (not to take anything away from Great). Hope he takes back the 1 spot next month!
A good record isn't enough to justify Jaedong being #1. He has to prove he is stronger than Flash, something he hasn't done yet. The last time they met was at the MSL finals, where Flash won convincingly (remember them?).
It's true Flash hasn't been playing perfectly recently. However he has only shown difficulties in TvT, and there is nothing to suggest his other match-ups have weakened at all. Even these vT problems were caused more by a lack of practice than anything serious.
The only way I can see Flash losing #1 is if he starts losing hard (worse than WLWLWL), or alternatively if Jaedong wins against him.
On June 16 2010 21:49 Elroi wrote: JD is something like 13-1 this month (TLPD is not updated it seams). With his only loss coming from a random zvz (not to take anything away from Great). Hope he takes back the 1 spot next month!
A good record isn't enough to justify Jaedong being #1. He has to prove he is stronger than Flash, something he hasn't done yet. The last time they met was at the MSL finals, where Flash won convincingly (remember them?).
It's true Flash hasn't been playing perfectly recently. However he has only shown difficulties in TvT, and there is nothing to suggest his other match-ups have weakened at all. Even these vT problems were caused more by a lack of practice than anything serious.
The only way I can see Flash losing #1 is if he starts losing hard (worse than WLWLWL), or alternatively if Jaedong wins against him.
Jaedong and Flash cant meet each other, Hiya beat Flash already.
the more i think about it, the more laughable it is that effort is in front of jaedong. is jd going to have to go 10-0 in ace matches before he's not slumping?
On June 16 2010 21:49 Elroi wrote: JD is something like 13-1 this month (TLPD is not updated it seams). With his only loss coming from a random zvz (not to take anything away from Great). Hope he takes back the 1 spot next month!
A good record isn't enough to justify Jaedong being #1. He has to prove he is stronger than Flash, something he hasn't done yet. The last time they met was at the MSL finals, where Flash won convincingly (remember them?).
It's true Flash hasn't been playing perfectly recently. However he has only shown difficulties in TvT, and there is nothing to suggest his other match-ups have weakened at all. Even these vT problems were caused more by a lack of practice than anything serious.
The only way I can see Flash losing #1 is if he starts losing hard (worse than WLWLWL), or alternatively if Jaedong wins against him.
like effort proved he is stronger than jaedong? and don't even give me crap about effort beating flash. effort didn't win the osl, flash lost it. artosis was right when he said, "jaedong, jaedong, flash, should-be-flash.."
On June 17 2010 17:49 danl9rm wrote: the more i think about it, the more laughable it is that effort is in front of jaedong. is jd going to have to go 10-0 in ace matches before he's not slumping?
It's not like this rank was made right after Effort had a dominating month and then won the OSL over Flash, with JD subsequently getting murdered 3-0. Wait, what's that? It was made right after that happened? The only thing that's laughable is what you're saying.
On June 16 2010 21:49 Elroi wrote: JD is something like 13-1 this month (TLPD is not updated it seams). With his only loss coming from a random zvz (not to take anything away from Great). Hope he takes back the 1 spot next month!
A good record isn't enough to justify Jaedong being #1. He has to prove he is stronger than Flash, something he hasn't done yet. The last time they met was at the MSL finals, where Flash won convincingly (remember them?).
It's true Flash hasn't been playing perfectly recently. However he has only shown difficulties in TvT, and there is nothing to suggest his other match-ups have weakened at all. Even these vT problems were caused more by a lack of practice than anything serious.
The only way I can see Flash losing #1 is if he starts losing hard (worse than WLWLWL), or alternatively if Jaedong wins against him.
Jaedong isn't going to play Flash this month, it's just a ridicules criteria to say that he has to beat him to be #1. The best way for JD to prove that he deserves that spot this month has been to beat Baby after he dismantled Flash. About only showing difficulies in TvT: he has almost only played TvTs this month (2 vP and no vZ).
Flash is not losing hard, that's right. But I think he is losing too hard to not let a JD on fire be #1 - if Flash doesn't make a monster come back this month and JD stops owning. I don't think JD has ever lost as many ace games in a row as Flash has recently. You are right too though that Flash would remain #1 if the monthly power rank was something like a quarterly power rank, by virtue of his MSL win. But it's not as clean-cut as you make it look like, JD has more wins than Flash now over 40 games (even though this dosn't say that much due to the fact that Flash's last 40 games have generally been a bit harder)... And he clearly has shown more power thus far in the month than Flash. If we don't recongnize this there is no point imo to have a monthly power rank, we might just as well reiterate the Kespa rank every month.
On June 17 2010 17:49 danl9rm wrote: the more i think about it, the more laughable it is that effort is in front of jaedong. is jd going to have to go 10-0 in ace matches before he's not slumping?
It's not like this rank was made right after Effort had a dominating month and then won the OSL over Flash, with JD subsequently getting murdered 3-0. Wait, what's that? It was made right after that happened? The only thing that's laughable is what you're saying.
Laughable is suggesting that last month effort looked more dominant than JD. In his past games among the games that went past early-game only SPL game versus Flash and second game against Kal looked decent. In all other games he played like total shit once game went into mid stages. Effort's second place this month is a mistake
Elroi, Flash played 7 games thus far winning 4 of them he heavily practiced for. Three losses are from unpredictable ace matches where he got sniped and all three of them are in the "recommended vods" section. JD won 4 games he heavily practiced for and the only time we expected to see him in the Ace game Oz coach decided HiyA has more chances to win (and decision resulted in brilliant back and forth action with HiyA's victory in the end). I for one, fail to see how this performance is enough to close the gap between JD and Flash, let alone to put JD at the first place.
Sorry. Flash not practicing for ace match is a poor poor excuse, when he knows he's the only ace on his team. Also, JD is the only ace on his team, nobody gives those excuses for him.
On June 18 2010 02:35 WWJDD wrote: Sorry. Flash not practicing for ace match is a poor poor excuse, when he knows he's the only ace on his team. Also, JD is the only ace on his team, nobody gives those excuses for him.
Pretty sure Hiya was ace for Oz when the team was too afraid Jaedong would get bashed by Flash for the fourth time in a row. And Jaedong and Flash have more excuses made for them than anyone else so I have no idea what you are talking about.
I believe at this point in time, it should take more than one mediocre month for Flash to lose the top position. His win against JD should give him enough credit.
JD seems to be a solid #2 again, EffOrt and Baby are losing way too much right now.
edit: JDs 9:1 stats are a little bit misleading, since preliminary-games have never really counted that much for the PR.
On June 17 2010 17:49 danl9rm wrote: the more i think about it, the more laughable it is that effort is in front of jaedong. is jd going to have to go 10-0 in ace matches before he's not slumping?
It's not like this rank was made right after Effort had a dominating month and then won the OSL over Flash, with JD subsequently getting murdered 3-0. Wait, what's that? It was made right after that happened? The only thing that's laughable is what you're saying.
Laughable is suggesting that last month effort looked more dominant than JD. In his past games among the games that went past early-game only SPL game versus Flash and second game against Kal looked decent. In all other games he played like total shit once game went into mid stages. Effort's second place this month is a mistake
Elroi, Flash played 7 games thus far winning 4 of them he heavily practiced for. Three losses are from unpredictable ace matches where he got sniped and all three of them are in the "recommended vods" section. JD won 4 games he heavily practiced for and the only time we expected to see him in the Ace game Oz coach decided HiyA has more chances to win (and decision resulted in brilliant back and forth action with HiyA's victory in the end). I for one, fail to see how this performance is enough to close the gap between JD and Flash, let alone to put JD at the first place.
This doesn't make sense. It's a really bad excuse to begin with: many teams have one ace who plays almost every ace game, it's not impossible for them to win. It's not like Ruby, Baby or Hiya prepared some super anti-flash cheese either in the game, Baby even got a really bad opening. And you'd notice, if you read the interviews, that Ruby didn't prepare especially for Flash. In the Wemade game too the excuse is as bad: Flash had to expect a terran opponent from their all terran line-up. And what do you mean Jaedong and Flash "practiced heavily" for some games? No opponents are decided on beforehand in proleague after the betting scandal. They'd only be stupid to not prepare for the ace games. JD has gone 9-1 this month and his games have all been absolute domination. Flash lost to 29% TvT Ruby. Of course the month is far from over and Flash is an absolute monster, but If you don't even see how this "close[s] the gap between JD and Flash" you are delusiounal imo.
On June 17 2010 17:49 danl9rm wrote: the more i think about it, the more laughable it is that effort is in front of jaedong. is jd going to have to go 10-0 in ace matches before he's not slumping?
It's not like this rank was made right after Effort had a dominating month and then won the OSL over Flash, with JD subsequently getting murdered 3-0. Wait, what's that? It was made right after that happened? The only thing that's laughable is what you're saying.
Laughable is suggesting that last month effort looked more dominant than JD. In his past games among the games that went past early-game only SPL game versus Flash and second game against Kal looked decent. In all other games he played like total shit once game went into mid stages. Effort's second place this month is a mistake
Elroi, Flash played 7 games thus far winning 4 of them he heavily practiced for. Three losses are from unpredictable ace matches where he got sniped and all three of them are in the "recommended vods" section. JD won 4 games he heavily practiced for and the only time we expected to see him in the Ace game Oz coach decided HiyA has more chances to win (and decision resulted in brilliant back and forth action with HiyA's victory in the end). I for one, fail to see how this performance is enough to close the gap between JD and Flash, let alone to put JD at the first place.
LOL yeah I mean like who practices for ace matches you know? It's not like they win you the whole thing or anything.
On June 18 2010 04:13 Samurai- wrote: So Jaedong should be first while being defeated 3:0 like 2-3 weeks ago ? Dilusional i say, dilusional.
Delusional? Jaedong really stepped it up this month and is back to killing everyone, while Flash is dropping the ball in the most important games. He doesn't even have OSL to practice for like Jaedong does.
WWJDD, I didn't say Flash doesn't practice for ace. Obviously he does. Its different issue, or "excuse" if you wish ;P As long as Flash is the only ace for KT, he is at huge disadvantage. Knowing your opponent is a big deal and Flash opponents not only know the race they gonna face, they know who it's gonna be exactly and Flash certainly gave them more then enough info to study his habits and timings. Flash on other hand is preparing blind and sometimes doesn't even know opponents race. You can't just draw a straight line between his Ace games and JD regular ones and compare them. Ruby is exception though. Even though he's obvious ace choice, you can't prepare against him. How can you prepare TvT against him? You can't. Even if you're Flash, all you can do is practice and hope he doesn't step up his game even more and don't humiliate you with a bunch of ghosts at the end lol
Elroi, his opponents hadn't prepared super cheeses, yes. But there's dozen ways you can get advantage over your opponent if you study his habits without turning your strategy into cheese and that's the point of sniping someone. He knew wemade will send terran, but he had no luxury of knowing his opponent exactly like Baby had. And why do you insist in including JD's offline prelims games? Top3 player is expected to go undefeated there especially in quite a noname group. Those games would have any meaning only if he'd lost 'em
Imo, Ruby's TvP and TvT stats should be completely ignored. He somehow shaped into completely different player in the ACE~
On June 18 2010 06:54 De4ngus wrote: LOL yeah I mean like who practices for ace matches you know? It's not like they win you the whole thing or anything.
KT isn't ACE, you know. They are fully capable of ending series with 3-0/3-1. They don't have to rely on the ace match to get a win. Why do you people think recent lost aces are "the most important games"? Do you not know KT's position in the league at the moment? Match against STX was the most important one and Flash delivered as usual. So did rest of the team in fact, cause they really couldn't afford losing that one - it was this important. Obviously Flash will prepare much better for his next ace games after this string of loses for the sake of his dignity, so if he keeps losing them there won't be excuses. But so far it's not a big deal.
And that is JD's fault he has to practice for OSL now, not Flash's. Flash worked hard to get a tiny bit of free time he has now.
I hate to make sweeping generalizations about fanbases, but I can't possibly imagine any other fanbase of any other player (Flash, Bisu when he was good, Stork, etc.) possibly trying to argue that their favorite player should be PR #1 less than three weeks after he was crushed 3-0 in a final to a player who also happened to make the other league's final.
Imagine Jaedong makes OSL finals and loses 3-2, then crushes <Bisu or Flash>3-0 in the MSL finals. By the way, <Bisu or Flash> lost in the round of 36 of the last OSL and the Dong has been by far the best individual league player over the past 8 months. The next month, Jaedong has no qualifiers to play and loses a few proleague games (but doesn't play terribly in any of them and still wins more than he loses), while <Bisu or Flash> kick ass in proleague. Would anyone be arguing that Bisu/Flash should be #1 over the Dong? No way.
On June 18 2010 16:25 darktreb wrote: I hate to make sweeping generalizations about fanbases, but I can't possibly imagine any other fanbase of any other player (Flash, Bisu when he was good, Stork, etc.) possibly trying to argue that their favorite player should be PR #1 less than three weeks after he was crushed 3-0 in a final to a player who also happened to make the other league's final.
Imagine Jaedong makes OSL finals and loses 3-2, then crushes <Bisu or Flash>3-0 in the MSL finals. By the way, <Bisu or Flash> lost in the round of 36 of the last OSL and the Dong has been by far the best individual league player over the past 8 months. The next month, Jaedong has no qualifiers to play and loses a few proleague games (but doesn't play terribly in any of them and still wins more than he loses), while <Bisu or Flash> kick ass in proleague. Would anyone be arguing that Bisu/Flash should be #1 over the Dong? No way.
Well what then does a monthly power rank mean? It should show who played the best over the month right? I guess, if a player didn't have any games he could get the benefit of the doubt.. but it's just so missleading to say that Flash was the most powerfull player this month. Imo you can drop on the PR and still be the most dominant player, ie the player who's "era we are in". What is so cool with Flash is that he has been the most dominating player every month for atleast 7 months (last month was not that sure...), but this month he hasn't... I'm quite new to TL so maybe I'm wrong, but this seems to me to be the only logical way of making the power rank: otherwise we could just stick to the Kespa rank. Besides JD just got monthly MVP in proleague, atleast they didn't give it to Flash because he "should get it".
And also, Flash got #1 spot the same month he got thrashed by JD 3-1 in the last MSL.
Monthly rank usually weighs recent events more heavily, but takes into consideration last month's events. Winning a title last month is more relevant than a handful of PL games this month. If there were a title this month that'd obviously have precedence.
When it suits Flash, consider the last month. When it doesn't, don't.
That argument not doing it for me. But whatever, we'll see what Flash does in the upcoming starleagues where he's earned a free pass in the first few rounds.
On June 18 2010 23:23 WWJDD wrote: When it suits Flash, consider the last month. When it doesn't, don't.
That argument not doing it for me. But whatever, we'll see what Flash does in the upcoming starleagues where he's earned a free pass in the first few rounds.
When was the last time in 8 months has ignoring last month helped Flash? The kid has been rock solid since October.
Still early in the month but at the end of October I made the argument that JD should be #1 after Flash went 10-0 and JD had a shaky month as he had done enough to buy a little staying power especially during starleague prelims which he had been seeded beyond. This time I make the same argument except applied to Flash, kid's been incredible for a long stretch, he's seeded beyond the prelim matches so he doesn't have those to pad his stats, he's earned some staying power.
Myself I just think Flash is taking a little breather. In between the last starleague and this one he had like 20 days where he didn't play a single game, I think that helped him tremendously. He has no such luck this time and I think you're seeing it take a toll on him.
Has the gap between them closed a bit? Absolutely. If the ranking came out today should JD be #1? Absolutely not.
On June 18 2010 23:23 WWJDD wrote: When it suits Flash, consider the last month. When it doesn't, don't.
That argument not doing it for me. But whatever, we'll see what Flash does in the upcoming starleagues where he's earned a free pass in the first few rounds.
When was the last time in 8 months has ignoring last month helped Flash? The kid has been rock solid since October.
Still early in the month but at the end of October I made the argument that JD should be #1 after Flash went 10-0 and JD had a shaky month as he had done enough to buy a little staying power especially during starleague prelims which he had been seeded beyond. This time I make the same argument except applied to Flash, kid's been incredible for a long stretch, he's seeded beyond the prelim matches so he doesn't have those to pad his stats, he's earned some staying power.
Has the gap between them closed a bit? Absolutely. If the ranking came out today should JD be #1? Absolutely not.
Flash also got the #1 spot in October. And the comment for JD being #2 was:
For once, I predict there will be a ruckus about how high Jaedong is on the PR. The truth is, The Tyrant was clearly not at his best in October. Dropping ZvZs to Zero, Hyuk and 815, he looked pretty bad. [...] Of course, he's going to have to seriously pull his weight in November if he wants to stay in the top three for long.
Well what then does a monthly power rank mean? It should show who played the best over the month right?
Where do people even get this idea from? It's released monthly, that doesn't mean we have to ignore recent events. Such as a 3-0 finals.
And also, Flash got #1 spot the same month he got thrashed by JD 3-1 in the last MSL.
No, he lost. He didn't "get thrashed". Thrashing is what Flash did to Jaedong in the concurrent OSL's Ro8. You know, the OSL that he won.
Flash #1 is not even a close call right now. Jaedong is playing amazingly and I'm a big fan of his (<3), but if the PR is supposed to be an accurate representation of who's on top in Brood War right now, then putting Flash somewhere other than #1 is just bizarre.
FlaSh has played to good for to long to lose first no matter how much better I know Jaedong is . Honestly, for the same reason I think Snow and effort are placed far to high I think FlaSh could lose all the rest of his games this month and it shouldn't affect his rank. I
I think people are ignoring the fact that you shouldn't just consider statistics, but also level of play in a more abstract sense when figuring power ranks.
Flash can lose half his games, but if he's making his opponents play absurdly good Starcraft in order to earn those wins, then there's no reason to drop him from #1.
Of course, if he collapses and plays like utter shit, that's a different story.
But the reality is that when you're doing month-to-month rankings, you can't just look at stats alone to decide who is playing the best Starcraft. If a nobody comes out of the woodwork and runs up an awesome streak, is he suddenly the best player in the world? I don't think so.
On June 19 2010 12:15 Mortality wrote: I think people are ignoring the fact that you shouldn't just consider statistics, but also level of play in a more abstract sense when figuring power ranks.
Flash can lose half his games, but if he's making his opponents play absurdly good Starcraft in order to earn those wins, then there's no reason to drop him from #1.
Of course, if he collapses and plays like utter shit, that's a different story.
But the reality is that when you're doing month-to-month rankings, you can't just look at stats alone to decide who is playing the best Starcraft.
The same point I tried to make 3 pages ago. Completely agree. Flash is maintaining a very high level of play even in his lost games.
imo you can tell a lot more about a players skills from how he loses as opposed to how he wins. Obviously, if he doesn't lose that says a lot as well! But ultimately, losses show where players weakpoints are and understanding why the player lost that game (and if they make those mistakes in future) gives a great deal of insight into how good that player really is.
Am I missing something here? What exactly did Jaedong do this month to put him ahead of Flash?
The OSL prelims? Are you serious? You can't hold against Flash that he is so good he (unlike Jaedong) doesn't have to play them.
Performance in PL? He has the exact same amount of wins like Flash. Yeah, Flash lost many ace games, but guess what, JD even didn't get to play them. You can repeat how Oz sucks as many times as you want but it isn't going to change fact that you can't attribut JD some imaginary ace games which he didn't play, much less won. Funny thing is, the only time Oz actually managed to get the match to ace, their coach choose...Hiya (and it was apparently a good move). Maybe, just maybe if Hiya didn't have to practice his ass off for ace game(s?), he would do better in his regular games...
Even if I take only this month and nothing else into account, Jaedong isn't doing better than Flash, he is just not doing worse.
Reading some of the comments here I would get the impression that Jaedong is leading Oz to grand finals while Flash's losses cost KT playoff spot...which sorta isn't happening. The point is that Jaedong can't afford to lose a single game, because every match was important for Oz. Flash, on the other hand, has a perfect opportunity to rest a bit, given KT's position. The mere fact that Flash can lost like 4 ace games in a row and KT is still comfortably the #1 team speaks about how fucking good he is, because it was mainly him who get KT so high.
On June 18 2010 18:04 Elroi wrote: And also, Flash got #1 spot the same month he got thrashed by JD 3-1 in the last MSL.
I think that has something to do with Flash being in both finals that week, winning one of them and wasn't "trashed" in the other. I'm pretty sure Jaedong would have got the top spot had he been the one in both finals.
And for the record, if Flash had won Game 3 in a similar manner to the first two, Effort would still be getting #2 this month - he completely deserves it.
I so doubt it, a main factor of why he's number 2 is his OSL victory and a reverse all-kill on FlaSh. On the good side, at least fantasy is back into the Power rankings, baller terran ftw!
And for the record, if Flash had won Game 3 in a similar manner to the first two, Effort would still be getting #2 this month - he completely deserves it.
I so doubt it, a main factor of why he's number 2 is his OSL victory and a reverse all-kill on FlaSh. On the good side, at least fantasy is back into the Power rankings, baller terran ftw!
Yea, Effort pulled of the impossible. Who the hekk would had imagine a reverse all-kill on Flash?! Atleast I know I didn't and those who say they did, they lie! (wink wink)
On June 17 2010 17:49 danl9rm wrote: the more i think about it, the more laughable it is that effort is in front of jaedong. is jd going to have to go 10-0 in ace matches before he's not slumping?
It's not like this rank was made right after Effort had a dominating month and then won the OSL over Flash, with JD subsequently getting murdered 3-0. Wait, what's that? It was made right after that happened? The only thing that's laughable is what you're saying.
as much as people have wanted it to be true, effort has never been stronger than jaedong... ever.
flash lost the OSL yet he's ahead of effort on the PR, but jaedong is behind effort because "effort won the osl."
On June 19 2010 17:06 adelarge wrote: Am I missing something here? What exactly did Jaedong do this month to put him ahead of Flash?
The OSL prelims? Are you serious? You can't hold against Flash that he is so good he (unlike Jaedong) doesn't have to play them.
Performance in PL? He has the exact same amount of wins like Flash. Yeah, Flash lost many ace games, but guess what, JD even didn't get to play them. Even if I take only this month and nothing else into account, Jaedong isn't doing better than Flash, he is just not doing worse.
Guess what, ace games are games like any other. Flash has lost around half of his recent games; Jaedong has won them all. Hard to see how you can call that "not doing better".
On June 19 2010 17:06 adelarge wrote: Am I missing something here? What exactly did Jaedong do this month to put him ahead of Flash?
The OSL prelims? Are you serious? You can't hold against Flash that he is so good he (unlike Jaedong) doesn't have to play them.
Performance in PL? He has the exact same amount of wins like Flash. Yeah, Flash lost many ace games, but guess what, JD even didn't get to play them. Even if I take only this month and nothing else into account, Jaedong isn't doing better than Flash, he is just not doing worse.
Guess what, ace games are games like any other. Flash has lost around half of his recent games; Jaedong has won them all. Hard to see how you can call that "not doing better".
lol yeah scrubs in offline prelims are games just like opposing teams ACES looking to snipe in ace matches.
Anyways, Flash has had a bad month but it literally doesn't matter, his team is a lock for 1st seed in the playoffs. If these were clutch games I would call choke, but they aren't. Obviously Flash is upset, but these games are learning experiences... not crushing "omg im out of the playoffs" loses.
TL has a short memory, Flash has dominated SC since the start of the season.. one bad month doesn't dethrown you.
On June 19 2010 17:06 adelarge wrote: Am I missing something here? What exactly did Jaedong do this month to put him ahead of Flash?
The OSL prelims? Are you serious? You can't hold against Flash that he is so good he (unlike Jaedong) doesn't have to play them.
Performance in PL? He has the exact same amount of wins like Flash. Yeah, Flash lost many ace games, but guess what, JD even didn't get to play them. Even if I take only this month and nothing else into account, Jaedong isn't doing better than Flash, he is just not doing worse.
Guess what, ace games are games like any other. Flash has lost around half of his recent games; Jaedong has won them all. Hard to see how you can call that "not doing better".
Once again, ace games are not like any other. You can't draw straight line between ace games and regular+offline prelims games. KT managers just haven't wrapped their minds around the fact no matter how good the player is he can't be lone ace for his team for such a long duration. One team already proved that when they lost in WL Finals last year. Guess who were that team's lone ace who despite of being in the best shape he's ever been ended up being sniped in one of the most crucial games for his team ever.
On June 19 2010 17:06 adelarge wrote: Am I missing something here? What exactly did Jaedong do this month to put him ahead of Flash?
The OSL prelims? Are you serious? You can't hold against Flash that he is so good he (unlike Jaedong) doesn't have to play them.
Performance in PL? He has the exact same amount of wins like Flash. Yeah, Flash lost many ace games, but guess what, JD even didn't get to play them. Even if I take only this month and nothing else into account, Jaedong isn't doing better than Flash, he is just not doing worse.
Guess what, ace games are games like any other. Flash has lost around half of his recent games; Jaedong has won them all. Hard to see how you can call that "not doing better".
lol yeah scrubs in offline prelims are games just like opposing teams ACES looking to snipe in ace matches.
Anyways, Flash has had a bad month but it literally doesn't matter, his team is a lock for 1st seed in the playoffs. If these were clutch games I would call choke, but they aren't. Obviously Flash is upset, but these games are learning experiences... not crushing "omg im out of the playoffs" loses.
TL has a short memory, Flash has dominated SC since the start of the season.. one bad month doesn't dethrown you.
You know this is exactly how Jaedong lost his #1 spot on the PR right? He had just 3-0ed an OSL final but was having a shaky month, although it was hard to tell with only played 5 games played and the randomness of ZvZ, while Flash was on a 10-0 streak, having to play MST and whatnot.
Well, Flash is losing every ace match and look at Jaedong's streak now.
Edit: One more win and Jaedong sets a new winstreak record.
On June 19 2010 17:06 adelarge wrote: Am I missing something here? What exactly did Jaedong do this month to put him ahead of Flash?
The OSL prelims? Are you serious? You can't hold against Flash that he is so good he (unlike Jaedong) doesn't have to play them.
Performance in PL? He has the exact same amount of wins like Flash. Yeah, Flash lost many ace games, but guess what, JD even didn't get to play them. Even if I take only this month and nothing else into account, Jaedong isn't doing better than Flash, he is just not doing worse.
Guess what, ace games are games like any other. Flash has lost around half of his recent games; Jaedong has won them all. Hard to see how you can call that "not doing better".
It's actually pretty easy to see. At the time when I wrote that Flash won every normal match and lost ace matches. JD won every normal match and didn't play any ace match. JD had the exact same number of wins like Flash in PL. For what we know, he could've lost all the ace matches as well. And the only time JD has the chance to play in ace, he dodged direct confrontation with Flash (ok, I don't believe he actually was afraid to play Flash, but his coach certainly wasn't confident in sending him).
JD is 19-1 in his last 20 non-Flash games. One has to wonder how many more wins he would have if OZ had a consistent second player to force ace matches.
On June 19 2010 17:06 adelarge wrote: Am I missing something here? What exactly did Jaedong do this month to put him ahead of Flash?
The OSL prelims? Are you serious? You can't hold against Flash that he is so good he (unlike Jaedong) doesn't have to play them.
Performance in PL? He has the exact same amount of wins like Flash. Yeah, Flash lost many ace games, but guess what, JD even didn't get to play them. Even if I take only this month and nothing else into account, Jaedong isn't doing better than Flash, he is just not doing worse.
Guess what, ace games are games like any other. Flash has lost around half of his recent games; Jaedong has won them all. Hard to see how you can call that "not doing better".
It's actually pretty easy to see. At the time when I wrote that Flash won every normal match and lost ace matches. JD won every normal match and didn't play any ace match. JD had the exact same number of wins like Flash in PL. For what we know, he could've lost all the ace matches as well. And the only time JD has the chance to play in ace, he dodged direct confrontation with Flash (ok, I don't believe he actually was afraid to play Flash, but his coach certainly wasn't confident in sending him).
Now JD is up one game, that's true.
It's just retarded to look at number of wins and not number of losses. If Jaedong had played as many ace matches as Flash and lost them all then he would have had the same record as Flash. But there's no reason to think he would have lost them all.
For everyone saying "Flash is only winning the games that don't matter and losing the ones that do," take note: Flash hasn't lost a game that actually mattered since the MSL finals. While a lot of teams are approaching the most crucial stage of proleague, KT is not one of those teams. In fact, attending proleague matches is just a formality for Flash - KT could play like ACE for the rest of the season and still waltz into the grand finals. With that in mind, the 'oh Flash is choking when it counts so Jaedong should be above him' argument looks even sillier than if we just look at the recent MSL finals 3-0ing of the tyrant himself.
This is probably the best thing for Flash since it will keep him focused on improving significantly which is only great since they'll be seeded to Proleague finals and he won't have many games after the season ends since he's seeded far in both leagues.
Regardless he's only really losing epic games so he doesn't have that far to go to start winning a lot again.
On June 21 2010 00:01 Tianx wrote: For everyone saying "Flash is only winning the games that don't matter and losing the ones that do," take note: Flash hasn't lost a game that actually mattered since the MSL finals. While a lot of teams are approaching the most crucial stage of proleague, KT is not one of those teams. In fact, attending proleague matches is just a formality for Flash - KT could play like ACE for the rest of the season and still waltz into the grand finals. With that in mind, the 'oh Flash is choking when it counts so Jaedong should be above him' argument looks even sillier than if we just look at the recent MSL finals 3-0ing of the tyrant himself.
lol, thats becuase has hasnt actually had any games that "mattered" at all. unless you count ace matches (which lots of people do). then he lost some.
On June 21 2010 05:51 Fenrax wrote: Flash is still #1 without much doubt, but JD certainly catched up. So far I would put Flash at 1, JD at 2, Effort at 3 and Baby at 4.
I can see Jaedong getting the #1 spot if he keeps up the performance he's had so far this month.
How can you keep Effort at 3 after losing to Fantasy, Juni, Horang2, and Stats?
Stats for CBNC at this point I think. He needs to have some more impressive wins in addition to beating Effort. Losing to Roro is pretty bad too since Roro's not as good as he was last month.
Stats for CBNC at this point I think. He needs to have some more impressive wins in addition to beating Effort. Losing to Roro is pretty bad too since Roro's not as good as he was last month.
as much as i love stork i think he failed to qualify to any league + he isnt doing that hot
> Mystery terran #1 is 4-4 this month, and has lost several ace matches in a row. He is qualified into both starleagues as a seed. He's been mentioned at #1 and #2 on this page. > Mystery terran #2 is 4-3 this month, and was 0-2'd in the MST. He's been mentioned at #3 and #4 on this page. > Mystery terran #3 is 6-2 this month, qualified for the MSL, and has only lost one proleague game since May 11th, all in his weakest match-up. He's been mentioned once on this page, but only in the context of another player.
On June 22 2010 00:40 tree.hugger wrote: > Mystery terran #1 is 4-4 this month, and has lost several ace matches in a row. He's been mentioned at #1 and #2 on this page. > Mystery terran #2 is 4-3 this month, and was 0-2'd in the MST. He's been mentioned at #3 and #4 on this page. > Mystery terran #3 is 6-2 this month, qualified for the MSL, and has only lost one proleague game since May 11th, all in his weakest match-up. He's been mentioned once on this page, but only in the context of another player.
Can you identify and rank these three terrans?
You forget to mention that mystery terran #1 is already seeded into both starleagues due to reaching both finals just a month ago.
On June 22 2010 00:40 tree.hugger wrote: > Mystery terran #1 is 4-4 this month, and has lost several ace matches in a row. He is qualified into both starleagues as a seed. He's been mentioned at #1 and #2 on this page.
Could you be any more obvious?
> Mystery terran #2 is 4-3 this month, and was 0-2'd in the MST. He's been mentioned at #3 and #4 on this page.
Again...?
> Mystery terran #3 is 6-2 this month, qualified for the MSL, and has only lost one proleague game since May 11th, all in his weakest match-up. He's been mentioned once on this page, but only in the context of another player.
Fantasy
Can you identify and rank these three terrans?
The problem is that you're trying to infer too much with too little data. Flash's record for this month is pretty bad at first glance, but he's losing games against strong players who know with 90% certainty that their opponent will be Flash, while Flash himself has no such guarantee. Furthermore, Flash's momentum coming into this month is absolutely astounding and should not be forgotten.
Baby's record also looks pretty bad at first glance, but again, you're inferring too much with too little. The only loss on Baby's record that really comes as a surprise is Tyson. There's no shame in a Terran losing to Jaedong or Best. And again, like Flash, Baby has tremendous momentum. Look at the players he's taken out in the past two months, which include a 9 game win streak.
Fantasy is indeed looking solid again, but is his 6-2 really better? Let's have a look:
Flash: 4-4 so far this month, 6-4 in last 10, 22-10 last 2 months, including 2 SL finals. Many S-class opponents faced.
Baby: 4-3 so far this month, 7-3 in last 10, 10-4 last 2 months. Defeated: Flash, Stats, Kal, Great, Leta. Lost to: Best, Tyson, Jaedong, Guemchi.
Fantasy: 6-2 so far this month, 8-2 in last 10, 10-5 last 2 months. Defeated: Flash, Hiya, Effort, Action, Calm. Lost to: Soulkey, Snow, Effort, Jaedong, Flash.
Flash: 4-4 so far this month, 6-4 in last 10, 22-10 last 2 months, including 2 SL finals. Many S-class opponents faced.
Effort and Jaedong are the only ones that can be probably called S-class. And Effort's borderline. So, I don't see your side of the argument.
Also, it looks like Fantasy faced just as many S-class opponents as Flash.
But not to worry. Flash has plenty of time to get back to his ridiculous win-rate. The starleagues are a ways away and Flash only has to play one team-match in Pro-league.
Stats for CBNC at this point I think. He needs to have some more impressive wins in addition to beating Effort. Losing to Roro is pretty bad too since Roro's not as good as he was last month.
as much as i love stork i think he failed to qualify to any league + he isnt doing that hot
Stork is 5-2 this month, he's back to being Samsung's ace, and he's in the OSL. He's been playing excellent Starcraft and shouldn't be left off the PR due to being in only one of the leagues.
Also, Fantasy might have a better record than Baby but Baby's played some jaw-droppingly good games (against Flash and Stats particularly) while Fantasy has mostly just been playing ok, looking more like he's scraping out wins while Baby looks S-class on his best days and A-class on his worst.
As of today, here is how I would rank the top ten:
1) Jaedong 2) Flash 3) Fantasy 4) Baby 5) Snow 6) Great 7) Leta 8) Free 9) Stork 10) Stats
To me, the hardest places to put players in were 3-5. You can make a case for all three of them to be in the third spot, but ultimately I chose Fantasy given how he has increased his weakest matchup, TvZ. I put Baby fourth because the quality of his wins have been magnificent. His game vs. Flash was an incredible display of his multitasking ability. Even though Snow beat Fantasy, I feel he is only going on his PvT right now. Both of his other matchups are really disappointing compared to his world-class PvT, and if he gets a bad draw in the starleagues he could be on his to an early exit because of it.
Flash: 4-4 so far this month, 6-4 in last 10, 22-10 last 2 months, including 2 SL finals. Many S-class opponents faced.
Effort and Jaedong are the only ones that can be probably called S-class. And Effort's borderline. So, I don't see your side of the argument.
Also, it looks like Fantasy faced just as many S-class opponents as Flash.
But not to worry. Flash has plenty of time to get back to his ridiculous win-rate. The starleagues are a ways away and Flash only has to play one team-match in Pro-league.
3-0 against Free, who was #1 PvT ELO at the time. A total of 6 games vs Effort, 2-4. 3-0 against Jaedong. 1-1 against Fantasy. 1-0 against Kal. 1-0 against Action. 0-1 against Baby. 0-1 against SkyHigh. 0-1 against Snow.
If these aren't some of the most dangerous opponents for a Terran to face, then I don't know who is.
And while we're talking about win rates, Flash has 69% wins in the past 2 months, maintained over 32 games.
A few hiccups aren't going to make him suddenly lose his spot.
Between the Flash fans who think he's already surpassed the bonjwas in reputation and the Flash haters who want to say he's not the scariest thing since Savior, there's some serious crazy talk going on.
A few hiccups by themselves aren't going to make Flash suddenly lose his spot, but there's also the fact that Jaedong's record has been absolutely phenomenal. It wouldn't be too much of a shame for Flash to drop one position, if just temporarily.
That said, both have games left to play this month.
Flash: 4-4 so far this month, 6-4 in last 10, 22-10 last 2 months, including 2 SL finals. Many S-class opponents faced.
Effort and Jaedong are the only ones that can be probably called S-class. And Effort's borderline. So, I don't see your side of the argument.
Also, it looks like Fantasy faced just as many S-class opponents as Flash.
But not to worry. Flash has plenty of time to get back to his ridiculous win-rate. The starleagues are a ways away and Flash only has to play one team-match in Pro-league.
3-0 against Free, who was #1 PvT ELO at the time. A total of 6 games vs Effort, 2-4. 3-0 against Jaedong. 1-1 against Fantasy. 1-0 against Kal. 1-0 against Action. 0-1 against Baby. 0-1 against SkyHigh. 0-1 against Snow.
If these aren't some of the most dangerous opponents for a Terran to face, then I don't know who is.
And while we're talking about win rates, Flash has 69% wins in the past 2 months, maintained over 32 games.
A few hiccups aren't going to make him suddenly lose his spot.
Between the Flash fans who think he's already surpassed the bonjwas in reputation and the Flash haters who want to say he's not the scariest thing since Savior, there's some serious crazy talk going on.
27-9 last 2 months (75% win rate). I think FlaSh should stay number one but not because win rates say so
It doesn't matter where you put Bisu this month. We all know, he will be high in PR next month. People already started to make changes with him in FPL.
On June 22 2010 16:30 arbiter_md wrote: It doesn't matter where you put Bisu this month. We all know, he will be high in PR next month. People already started to make changes with him in FPL.
Since his break, roro is bisu's best win. I wouldn't get too hasty in predicting new successes for bisu.
Bisu has showed some promising games, but I'm still not convinced he's returned to his old form. Roro, Skyhigh and 815 are nowhere near the best progamers...
On June 22 2010 06:12 setzer wrote: As of today, here is how I would rank the top ten:
1) Jaedong 2) Flash 3) Fantasy 4) Baby 5) Snow 6) Great 7) Leta 8) Free 9) Stork 10) Stats
To me, the hardest places to put players in were 3-5. You can make a case for all three of them to be in the third spot, but ultimately I chose Fantasy given how he has increased his weakest matchup, TvZ. I put Baby fourth because the quality of his wins have been magnificent. His game vs. Flash was an incredible display of his multitasking ability. Even though Snow beat Fantasy, I feel he is only going on his PvT right now. Both of his other matchups are really disappointing compared to his world-class PvT, and if he gets a bad draw in the starleagues he could be on his to an early exit because of it.
Leta should not be there, Sea and Skyhigh are both playing much better and you left them off.
I have an explanation for Flash Ace-slump. This happened with Jaedong too.
They were both on my FPL when they started slumping. What does this mean for Flash fangirls??
For one thing, Flash cannot be on my team for the playoffs, so a recovery is very much a possibility. Also, the same phenomenon apparently does not happen to my liquibets.
Flash, Jaedong, BaBy, Fantasy, Snow, and mayyyybe EffOrt (he made MSL at least!... over some scrubs, but his 2-4 proleague record sure looks bad) should be in PR. The last few spots are harder...
I'd say great should be around #8 or 9, since he failed to make OSL ro16 T_T but has played surprisingly well otherwise.
Not sure about Stork? Playing well in proleague is good; losing to s2 in MST is not.
Hyuk is 1-3 in proleague but made both leagues (and beat Stats and the two Dream League bonjwas Snow and Neo.G_SoulKey in OSL prelims... and 2-0'd a terran to make OSL!) I really don't like him, but being in both leagues is pretty important @_@
Sea's playing pretty well. 2-2 in proleague, but no losses in OSL prelims, made OSL over great, and 2-0'd his MSL group of Stork and Flying, two not-so-bad protosses. In fact, he's 6-1 vP this month (and TvP is supposedly his worst matchup?), beating Kal, Stork, Flying, free, Pusan, and GuemChi, while losing to Flying in proleague.
sKyHigh... meh? 0-3 vs SKT protoss and no losses otherwise. Made MSL, 2-0'd KT in proleague including Flash. I think we'll have to see if he qualifies for OSL ro16 before deciding.
Stats: I love Stats. (Incidentally, TLPD has a wrong entry, having Hyuk 2-0ing Snow instead of beating Snow and Stats...) He made MSL in a pretty strong group, and has only lost to Jaedong, BaBy, and Hyuk this month (we can overlook his dropping one game in OSL prelims...) while beating Kwanro, Bisu, Lomo x3 (lolol Lomo -__-), Light, Shuttle the PvP god, and EffOrt. ... he is pretty good.
Plexa I had a dream that you went against what you told me and put Jaedong at one. Clearly I am to be prophetic, yes?
Also nice post roommate, though I'd think great would be above Stork this time around since they've both been playing well in SPL (great with the Ace advantage) with comparable amounts of not-win in individual leagues.
Hyuk should be there, after a strong R4 finish and good individual league performance this time around.
You also forgot that Sea got the wildcard for the night group!
I still don't think Stats should make it :3 But maybe that's because I like disagreeing with you.
My bias against Hyuk makes me leave him out, heh. Not sure about putting EffOrt so low, but he I felt that the 6 above him had better individual league standings and pro league performance. He can't ride his OSL victory and past SPL performance into this month's top 5, imo. Stork could easily fizzle out of the Ro36 in the MSL next month, so putting him here may be a risk. But when he won it was usually impressive to watch. Great might get the edge on Stork. Light is a pain to watch sometimes, so he might not deserve it. Stats... he's just playing with enough power to make the list - but we'll see. Skyhigh lost to Bisu - what to make of this? Time will tell on the latter's performance.
On June 22 2010 10:25 DracoVolantus wrote: short quiz:
player that can can win games only with scouting and proper macroing :>
Sounds a lot like an in-form BeSt, actually. Didn't even care what you were building, just macro. There was a LR featuring him in a PvT that basically went "Best, you can't break a tank line like that by attacking into it.. wait, apparently he can wtf?". Dude wins some games entirely by bashing his head into his opponent until he caves.
That said, Flash is really not playing well as of late.. he's losing a LOT of TvTs. While he's doing so, Jaedong is on an absolute tear in PL - unless something changes, I don't see Flash as deserving of the #1 spot in a month where he's yet to win an ace match.
One more loss for Flash and one more win for Jaedong and the #1 ELO spot will change hands. Only 6 points seperate the two now, and Flash is struggling while Jaedong is trending up.
i think the shlump became slump on his strongest match up ,,,,, there will be people that will say those are irrelevant games since kt is already 1st but this is pushing the limits
Funny thing is Flash is still above 70% in all matchups since it's only the TvT's that are troublesome right now and he had something like 73% in that matchup.
I'm pretty sure Flash would have won most opponents Jaedong faced, but that's just theorycrafting. Since I haven't been able to watch the games lately I can't really take part in the discussion though.
Jaedong is making a run for the nr1 spot for sure. But don't hate on flash too much, this is just one troublesome matchup and somehow only in the acematches, I'm sure he'll fix it soon.
Edit: Does anyone know how many wins Flash have in PL so far? Coz if it's close to 60 now maybe the record is jinxed, or maybe he's watching too much soccer haha.
On June 23 2010 18:04 StylishVODs wrote: Funny thing is Flash is still above 70% in all matchups since it's only the TvT's that are troublesome right now and he had something like 73% in that matchup.
I'm pretty sure Flash would have won most opponents Jaedong faced, but that's just theorycrafting. Since I haven't been able to watch the games lately I can't really take part in the discussion though.
Jaedong is making a run for the nr1 spot for sure. But don't hate on flash too much, this is just one troublesome matchup and somehow only in the acematches, I'm sure he'll fix it soon.
Edit: Does anyone know how many wins Flash have in PL so far? Coz if it's close to 60 now maybe the record is jinxed, or maybe he's watching too much soccer haha.
He is at 56 wins now.
Your theorycrafting can also be done the other way around: I'm pretty sure Jaedong would not have lost all those games Flash lost
The case right now would however be that Flash lost his spot more than Jaedong earned it. Besides the fact that JD is not losing (which of course is impressive in itself) he has not done anything spectacular to overtake Flash.
Regarding the games, Flash has played quite good in some of his losses. But yesterday against Really he simply played bad (although winning the first game convincingly), you could see his confidence was tackled.
When Flash first took #1 on the PR during this monster run, it was when he dominated in PL and and basically went undefeated through all the individual league groups (qualifying for OSL ro16 and MSL ro32 in the same month), while Jaedong suffered a psuedo slump in proleague despite being a reigning champ.
Short of some weird revival within the next week, I'd be disappointed if Flash took #1. You don't literally lose 6 games for your team in your "best" matchup and expect to be called #1.
On June 23 2010 22:30 TwoToneTerran wrote: When Flash first took #1 on the PR during this monster run, it was when he dominated in PL and and basically went undefeated through all the individual league groups (qualifying for OSL ro16 and MSL ro32 in the same month), while Jaedong suffered a psuedo slump in proleague despite being a reigning champ.
Short of some weird revival within the next week, I'd be disappointed if Flash took #1. You don't literally lose 6 games for your team in your "best" matchup and expect to be called #1.
On June 23 2010 18:04 StylishVODs wrote: Funny thing is Flash is still above 70% in all matchups since it's only the TvT's that are troublesome right now and he had something like 73% in that matchup.
I'm pretty sure Flash would have won most opponents Jaedong faced, but that's just theorycrafting. Since I haven't been able to watch the games lately I can't really take part in the discussion though.
Jaedong is making a run for the nr1 spot for sure. But don't hate on flash too much, this is just one troublesome matchup and somehow only in the acematches, I'm sure he'll fix it soon.
Edit: Does anyone know how many wins Flash have in PL so far? Coz if it's close to 60 now maybe the record is jinxed, or maybe he's watching too much soccer haha.
He is at 56 wins now.
59 actually. (37 + 22 from WL).
Also interesting to note, Jaedong now has a better winning percentage than Flash for PL 09-10 regular season, and both of them are actually worse than Bisu last season.
On June 23 2010 18:04 StylishVODs wrote: Funny thing is Flash is still above 70% in all matchups since it's only the TvT's that are troublesome right now and he had something like 73% in that matchup.
I'm pretty sure Flash would have won most opponents Jaedong faced, but that's just theorycrafting. Since I haven't been able to watch the games lately I can't really take part in the discussion though.
Jaedong is making a run for the nr1 spot for sure. But don't hate on flash too much, this is just one troublesome matchup and somehow only in the acematches, I'm sure he'll fix it soon.
Edit: Does anyone know how many wins Flash have in PL so far? Coz if it's close to 60 now maybe the record is jinxed, or maybe he's watching too much soccer haha.
He is at 56 wins now.
59 actually. (37 + 22 from WL).
Also interesting to note, Jaedong now has a better winning percentage than Flash for PL 09-10 regular season, and both of them are actually worse than Bisu last season.
No, it is 56. He had three wins in the Winners League Playoff Finals, but playoff games do not count towards the overall Proleague record.
Still not convinced that JD deserves #1. He is winning his regular games in PL. Flash is too. He qualified for OSL. Flash is already there as well. And...that's all. It would help if JD actually won some ace matches this month, instead of didn't play any (like the one against KT...to bad his own coach apparently wasn't confident in his ability to beat Flash).
It's also quite interesting to look at the situation immediately before the MSL finals. Flash suffered some losses in PL and lost OSL finals against Effort. On the other hand Jaedong owned in PL and crushed his opposition on his way to MSL finals. If the PR should come right before the finals, I'm sure lot of people would scream for JD nr. 1 as well. Just look at the first Flash vs Jaedong pool. And we all here remember how the finals turned out. Flash read JD like a book and completely raped him in BO5, when he is supposedly the strongest player ever.
That being said, Flash performance this month isn't quite #1 deserving too lol. But I would still put Flash at first place. More than 8 months of such brutal dominance deserve some benefits of the doubt and the MSL finals is still too fresh to ignore despite some fans trying really hard to do so.
On June 24 2010 00:01 adelarge wrote: Still not convinced that JD deserves #1. He is winning his regular games in PL. Flash is too. He qualified for OSL. Flash is already there as well. And...that's all. It would help if JD actually won some ace matches this month, instead of didn't play any (like the one against KT...to bad his own coach apparently wasn't confident in his ability to beat Flash).
Again, your argument is very tenuous, for two reasons: 1) Playing and losing is not the same as not playing. It is worse than not playing. We don't know how Jaedong would have done had he played 5 ace matches this month, true, but the worst he could have done is lose them all, which would make his record this month similar to Flash's. The best he could have done is win them all, which would make his record much much better than Flash's--and there's at least as much justification to imagine that a hypothetical ace match would have been a win as that it would have been a loss. In practice, he might have lost some games, had he played them, but I doubt that anyone (besides yourself, possibly) thinks it very likely that Jaedong would have lost all 5 ace matches had he played them.
2) The above would be true even if regular games and ace games were entirely different beasts, like shooting and skiiing in a biathlon, but of course this is not the case. They are both games of Starcraft: both involve essentially the same skill set to win. Ace matches are more pressured, but that pressure applies equally to both players in the game, and besides, Jaedong and Flash are old hands at dealing with pressure. The distinction between ace matches and regular matches that you are struggling to draw is all but arbitrary. It's scarcely better than arguing, "Flash has only lost TvTs this month--but Jaedong hasn't even played any!"
It's also quite interesting to look at the situation immediately before the MSL finals. Flash suffered some losses in PL and lost OSL finals against Effort. On the other hand Jaedong owned in PL and crushed his opposition on his way to MSL finals. If the PR should come right before the finals, I'm sure lot of people would scream for JD nr. 1 as well. Just look at the first Flash vs Jaedong pool. And we all here remember how the finals turned out. Flash read JD like a book and completely raped him in BO5, when he is supposedly the strongest player ever.
No one's arguing about last month's ranking. Flash was the definitive #1 at that time. At the same time, no one's arguing that Flash's results haven't dropped off significantly since then, whereas Jaedong has been on a tear.
That being said, Flash performance this month isn't quite #1 deserving too lol. But I would still put Flash at first place. More than 8 months of such brutal dominance deserve some benefits of the doubt and the MSL finals is still too fresh to ignore despite some fans trying really hard to do so.
You're entitled to that opinion, and in fact, I'm sure Flash will get the benefit of the doubt, by being ranked above almost every other player in the league despite his mediocre record this month. I don't think that he deserves quite that much leeway against Jaedong, though, simply because Jaedong was also dominating during those months, second only to Flash.
In other news, Jaedong's Elo in TLPD is now only 6 points away from Flash's! Remember when it was more like 150?
On June 24 2010 00:01 adelarge wrote: Still not convinced that JD deserves #1. He is winning his regular games in PL. Flash is too. He qualified for OSL. Flash is already there as well. And...that's all. It would help if JD actually won some ace matches this month, instead of didn't play any (like the one against KT...to bad his own coach apparently wasn't confident in his ability to beat Flash).
It's also quite interesting to look at the situation immediately before the MSL finals. Flash suffered some losses in PL and lost OSL finals against Effort. On the other hand Jaedong owned in PL and crushed his opposition on his way to MSL finals. If the PR should come right before the finals, I'm sure lot of people would scream for JD nr. 1 as well. Just look at the first Flash vs Jaedong pool. And we all here remember how the finals turned out. Flash read JD like a book and completely raped him in BO5, when he is supposedly the strongest player ever.
That being said, Flash performance this month isn't quite #1 deserving too lol. But I would still put Flash at first place. More than 8 months of such brutal dominance deserve some benefits of the doubt and the MSL finals is still too fresh to ignore despite some fans trying really hard to do so.
Oh my god can you fanboy anymore? Hiya was sent as a sniper because everyone knew Flash was going to be practicing for Jaedong mostly, not because "Jaedong was too scared to play Flash." I've seen people say that as a joke but seriously?
On June 24 2010 03:25 qrs wrote: In other news, Jaedong's Elo in TLPD is now only 6 points away from Flash's! Remember when it was more like 150?
If anything this saddens me because it shows that flash is clearly the best player in the world by far. It's not that JD has caught up to him, he's been hovering around the 2330 ELO mark for a while now. It's just that flash is not playing to his potential. Just to put it in perspective, JD made it to 4 finals over the course of 4 SL seasons. Flash made it to 4 finals over the course of two... That is redonkulous.
Also, watching both MSL finals, I also don't think that JD can beat flash in a standard macro game where they are roughly economically even in the beginning.
1. Jaedong (6-0) - He's rebounded beautifully from the 0-3 to Flash. Perfect play this month. 2. Flash (5-5) - Not the best record but he's playing better than anyone but JD. 3. Stork (5-2) - Didn't qualify for the MSL, but he's seeded in the OSL and I believe he's back in form. Worse stats than players below him but I'd say he's playing better. 4. Free (5-1) - More of an individual league specialist right now, but the only thing wrong with that is that he's never even reached a finals. 5. Bisu (5-1) - He's back, bitches. 6. fOrGG (4-1) - Seeded in OSL, qualified for MSL, supporting KT in PL. Might be overlooked. 7. Snow (4-2) - Maybe he'll drop if he gets a month full of Protoss and Zerg. 8. Baby (4-3) - Again, not the best record, but he's played fantastic matches specifically against Flash. 9. Fantasy (6-2) - Great record but hasn't always been pretty, and got lucky against Action a few times. 10. great (8-2) - Doesn't live up to his name but his record forces him to be on PR.
On June 24 2010 05:38 jalstar wrote: My predictions/thoughts:
1. Jaedong (6-0) - He's rebounded beautifully from the 0-3 to Flash. Perfect play this month. 2. Flash (5-5) - Not the best record but he's playing better than anyone but JD. 3. Stork (5-2) - Didn't qualify for the MSL, but he's seeded in the OSL and I believe he's back in form. Worse stats than players below him but I'd say he's playing better. 4. Free (5-1) - More of an individual league specialist right now, but the only thing wrong with that is that he's never even reached a finals. 5. Bisu (5-1) - He's back, bitches. 6. fOrGG (4-1) - Seeded in OSL, qualified for MSL, supporting KT in PL. Might be overlooked. 7. Snow (4-2) - Maybe he'll drop if he gets a month full of Protoss and Zerg. 8. Baby (4-3) - Again, not the best record, but he's played fantastic matches specifically against Flash. 9. Fantasy (6-2) - Great record but hasn't always been pretty, and got lucky against Action a few times. 10. great (8-2) - Doesn't live up to his name but his record forces him to be on PR.
CBNC: Sea, Hiya, Leta, Jangbi, Light
I think you are really underrating Fantasy's scrappy play this month. Most of his matches have been on his weakest matchup and he is still producing big wins for SKT. Compared to last round, SKT is doing much better (they look the best out of any team), and a big reason of that has to do with Fantasy's performance. He is also about to qualify for OSL (anyone who thinks Brave will win needs a reality check). Stork should not be that high since he did drop out of the MSL and Free's PL play has not exactly been inspiring. I agree with Forgg being overlooked, he is playing some surprisingly good SC right now for the first time in forever.
On June 24 2010 06:03 Mindcrime wrote: Bisu is too high.
His best win since coming back is still against roro. :/
setzer makes a good point for fantasy over Bisu (although SKT seems to be moving back towards Bisu as ace) but I can't see how any player not named Jaedong, Flash, Stork, or Free played better this month.
On June 24 2010 05:38 jalstar wrote: My predictions/thoughts:
1. Jaedong (6-0) - He's rebounded beautifully from the 0-3 to Flash. Perfect play this month. 2. Flash (5-5) - Not the best record but he's playing better than anyone but JD. 3. Stork (5-2) - Didn't qualify for the MSL, but he's seeded in the OSL and I believe he's back in form. Worse stats than players below him but I'd say he's playing better. 4. Free (5-1) - More of an individual league specialist right now, but the only thing wrong with that is that he's never even reached a finals. 5. Bisu (5-1) - He's back, bitches. 6. fOrGG (4-1) - Seeded in OSL, qualified for MSL, supporting KT in PL. Might be overlooked. 7. Snow (4-2) - Maybe he'll drop if he gets a month full of Protoss and Zerg. 8. Baby (4-3) - Again, not the best record, but he's played fantastic matches specifically against Flash. 9. Fantasy (6-2) - Great record but hasn't always been pretty, and got lucky against Action a few times. 10. great (8-2) - Doesn't live up to his name but his record forces him to be on PR.
CBNC: Sea, Hiya, Leta, Jangbi, Light
I think you are really underrating Fantasy's scrappy play this month. Most of his matches have been on his weakest matchup and he is still producing big wins for SKT. Compared to last round, SKT is doing much better (they look the best out of any team), and a big reason of that has to do with Fantasy's performance. He is also about to qualify for OSL (anyone who thinks Brave will win needs a reality check). Stork should not be that high since he did drop out of the MSL and Free's PL play has not exactly been inspiring. I agree with Forgg being overlooked, he is playing some surprisingly good SC right now for the first time in forever.
I'm assuming you'd put Fantasy above Stork, but who else? As you said, Free hasn't been there in PL, Bisu is newly back, fOrGG doesn't have enough games for top 5, Snow is still a one matchup guy, Baby is also out of the MSL, and great is out of the OSL. Effort and Kal are slumping. How do you not put Stork in the top 5?
Stork is my favourite player ever, but you cannot underestimate his MST loss as a major decrease in power (POWER rankings reflect the most dominant players at the time). Plus he has not played his Ro36 match yet, so he is in danger of becoming an SPL force only.
What do Flash, Jaedong, Effort, Kal, Free, Snow, Sea, Bisu and Fantasy all have that Stork doesn't? Both MSL and OSL. Obviously not all of those players should necessarily be above Stork, but unless you value SPL as several times the importance of OSL/MSL, Stork not quite "powerful" enough. Even great could be ranked higher as he only lost in the OSL in the Ro36, where Stork has yet to play so you can't hold that against him.
Stork even lost to Sea, so you'd really have to only care about SPL to hold Sea's 2-2 SPL record so much against him as to take him out of the top 10.
Sea is playing pretty good right now, and while his past individual leagues have been met with failure, I think this time there is some hope. All of his matchups are solid, and his games against Great showed me he is really out to prove his critics wrong. Snow is playing well enough to keep his spot. He made it out of a really tough MSL group and is a very deadly PvT player. His PvZ is better now than his past statistics might suggest. Based on that, I think 6th spot would be a reasonable place for Stork, imo.
On June 24 2010 05:38 jalstar wrote: My predictions/thoughts:
1. Jaedong (6-0) - He's rebounded beautifully from the 0-3 to Flash. Perfect play this month. 2. Flash (5-5) - Not the best record but he's playing better than anyone but JD. 3. Stork (5-2) - Didn't qualify for the MSL, but he's seeded in the OSL and I believe he's back in form. Worse stats than players below him but I'd say he's playing better. 4. Free (5-1) - More of an individual league specialist right now, but the only thing wrong with that is that he's never even reached a finals. 5. Bisu (5-1) - He's back, bitches. 6. fOrGG (4-1) - Seeded in OSL, qualified for MSL, supporting KT in PL. Might be overlooked. 7. Snow (4-2) - Maybe he'll drop if he gets a month full of Protoss and Zerg. 8. Baby (4-3) - Again, not the best record, but he's played fantastic matches specifically against Flash. 9. Fantasy (6-2) - Great record but hasn't always been pretty, and got lucky against Action a few times. 10. great (8-2) - Doesn't live up to his name but his record forces him to be on PR.
CBNC: Sea, Hiya, Leta, Jangbi, Light
I can say definitively that Plexa's putting Flash at 1 and Jaedong at 2 for the next PR. Stork, free, great, Snow, BaBy should all be there though. Sea too probably. Lol Light.
On June 24 2010 03:25 qrs wrote: In other news, Jaedong's Elo in TLPD is now only 6 points away from Flash's! Remember when it was more like 150?
Yeah what was that like, one and a half months ago
Shit goes down fast in Starcraft!
elo is just a measure of strekyness. Jaedong hasn't lost anything recently outside of being 3-0'd whereas Flash just went on a 10 game 50% streak.
52% over 21 games, but yeah. It's just as much a measure of consistency though. You don't ever need to get a long streak to get a really high ELO, you just need an extended period of consistently good results. Before April Flash got to 2430 or something along those lines without ever getting more than 7 wins in a row outside of his initial 10 game streak in October.
On June 24 2010 03:25 qrs wrote: In other news, Jaedong's Elo in TLPD is now only 6 points away from Flash's! Remember when it was more like 150?
Also, watching both MSL finals, I also don't think that JD can beat flash in a standard macro game where they are roughly economically even in the beginning.
all I can say is.. DUH?!
flash is Terran zerg is never going to win with equal economic footing :/
On June 24 2010 03:25 qrs wrote: In other news, Jaedong's Elo in TLPD is now only 6 points away from Flash's! Remember when it was more like 150?
Also, watching both MSL finals, I also don't think that JD can beat flash in a standard macro game where they are roughly economically even in the beginning.
all I can say is.. DUH?!
flash is Terran zerg is never going to win with equal economic footing :/
Hahaha, yeah. There's a reason 12 hatch is standard versus Terran.
On June 24 2010 19:02 Paddington wrote: Bisu should be on PR/CBNC if he makes it out of his OSL group IMO. Strange month, could argue that neither Dong nor Flash deserve no1.
On June 24 2010 03:25 qrs wrote: In other news, Jaedong's Elo in TLPD is now only 6 points away from Flash's! Remember when it was more like 150?
Also, watching both MSL finals, I also don't think that JD can beat flash in a standard macro game where they are roughly economically even in the beginning.
all I can say is.. DUH?!
flash is Terran zerg is never going to win with equal economic footing :/
and again , flash overrated and JD underrated . like always and always .
jaedong is one of the scariest monster of late game in all SC history .
rewatch games like vs midas on triathlon , vs forGG on medusa or vs flash on rush hour maybe ?
dont tell me jaedong cant win flash on late macro game , that just make me want to kill you all .
and stop saying Zergs cant win terrans on big macro games . thats just craps and craps .
want zergs who crush terrans on big late games ?
gorush , savior , jaedong , great , effort and zero .
flash is NOT invincible , and he is NOT making tvz harder for Zergs , he is NOT revolutioning ANYTHING . he is just some monster skilled kid , NOTHING MORE .
terrans who are helping a lot the terran evolution this times ?
midas , nada , leta , fantasy ( boxer and oov )
DONT TALK OF FLASH AS IF HE WAS SOME GENIUS THING .
Flash IS a genius, he has best televised streaks of wins vs protoss, zergs (oov is just similiar) and terrans and it couldn't be done without word genius, and if You talk about revolutionizing You could tell the same thing about Bisu and fantasy if You trolled in Your heart really hard.. lol.
I think the thing that will keep Flash at the top in next month's power rank is the fact that KT has such a lead in PL that his choking hard this month won't hurt them.
On June 24 2010 22:28 NovaTheFeared wrote: I think the thing that will keep Flash at the top in next month's power rank is the fact that KT has such a lead in PL that his choking hard this month won't hurt them.
It's not really choking if the games don't matter. Flash isn't playing much worse than usual rather than his opponents having stepped their play way up for the ace matches, and once you toss in a bit of luck you get a bad streak. That said, he lost the one against Really after getting a big build order advantage. How often does that happened?
It's just a matter of time before Flash reinvents his TvT, though. He's gone through way tougher stretches than this and every single time in the past one of his matchups looked weak, a month or two later he was unstoppable at it.
On June 24 2010 23:36 Tianx wrote: It's not really choking if the games don't matter
Most of them did matter though. He is just lucky that STX slumped recently, otherwise they would probably be #1 by now. Not that I would necessarily say choking is the reason for his losses.
On June 24 2010 04:58 Warrior Madness wrote: Also, watching both MSL finals, I also don't think that JD can beat flash in a standard macro game where they are roughly economically even in the beginning.
14CC is far ahead economically hence the need to punish it. Only 3hatch before pool matches it in eco, which he did do one game and lost although I think that particular one could have gone either way. We saw in the previous MSL that on an even level with 3 hatch before pool he did manage to beat him.
Also about Flash losing games that don't matter, when did that ever come into it with the power rank? You can tell by the games Flash is hardly holding back because of the league situation, it's irrelevant to the individual performance.
On June 24 2010 23:36 Tianx wrote: It's not really choking if the games don't matter
Most of them did matter though. He is just lucky that STX slumped recently, otherwise they would probably be #1 by now. Not that I would necessarily say choking is the reason for his losses.
I agree, most of his losses weren't caused by choking. He was being beaten straight up in late game TvT. A predicament caused by, to his own admission, a lack of practice. As for his recent game versus Really, well that's another story...
On June 24 2010 19:02 Paddington wrote: Bisu should be on PR/CBNC if he makes it out of his OSL group IMO. Strange month, could argue that neither Dong nor Flash deserve no1.
I'm having trouble seeing from your point of view
Summing up what I've observed and what I've been reading in this topic:
1st Point of View: Flash was in 2 Finals last month, won 1, lost won. Beat Dong 3-0, but has been playing poorly this month, going ~50% and losing horribly in Ace matches. One could argue that, based on current performance, does not deserve to be #1.
2nd Point of View: Dong has been on a hotstreak in PL, and in all non-Flash related games. However, got walloped 3-0 in a SL final, and therefore loses his legitimacy to #1, due to losing a bo5 convincingly, recently (although not in the concurrent month) to his strongest rival.
Depends on the point of view for the argument presented: Do you consider outside the timeframe presented, or do you exclusively consider the shortest possible timeframe (1 month) for the current PR?
For the record, and this is complete conjecture on my part, if Dong hadn't lost 3-0, there wouldn't be a serious problem crowning him #1 for the upcoming month.
On June 24 2010 23:36 Tianx wrote: It's not really choking if the games don't matter
Most of them did matter though. He is just lucky that STX slumped recently, otherwise they would probably be #1 by now. Not that I would necessarily say choking is the reason for his losses.
I agree, most of his losses weren't caused by choking. He was being beaten straight up in late game TvT. A predicament caused by, to his own admission, a lack of practice. As for his recent game versus Really, well that's another story...
You can hardly blame the loss vs Skyhigh as a lack of practice too. Skyhigh even had to prepare for two maps in that game. Flash was able to solely concentrate on the ace match.
On June 25 2010 00:19 infinity2k9 wrote: Also about Flash losing games that don't matter, when did that ever come into it with the power rank? You can tell by the games Flash is hardly holding back because of the league situation, it's irrelevant to the individual performance.
Of course how important the games are matter. If you go 2-6 in proleague but dominate both a starleague's final and semifinal 6-0, you look waaaaaay better than someone who goes 8-0 in proleague, barely scrapes into the final, and then gets dominated in a final 3-0 even though your record is strictly 'better.' This is of course ignoring play quality in the games itself, which is by far the most important factor.
On June 24 2010 19:02 Paddington wrote: Flash... has been playing poorly this month, going ~50% and losing horribly in Ace matches. One could argue that, based on current performance, does not deserve to be #1.
Flash isn't "losing horribly." His 50% record in the last two weeks is ass, but his play is anything but. People have figured him out and he's no longer invincible, but that doesn't mean he's a worse player than he was before. It just means his play needs refreshing.
On June 25 2010 01:46 Tianx wrote: Of course how important the games are matter. If you go 2-6 in proleague but dominate both a starleague's final and semifinal 6-0, you look waaaaaay better than someone who goes 8-0 in proleague, barely scrapes into the final, and then gets dominated in a final 3-0 even though your record is strictly 'better.'
Since when was Jaedong dominating Midas and Calm him barely scraping into the final? He is also 14-0 in proleague lately, not 8-0. And I still maintain that KT's Ace matches are quite important. Maybe not from now on due to how STX are doing, but they where really close to catching up and then Flash loses 6 deciding games in a row.
On June 25 2010 01:46 Tianx wrote: His 50% record in the last two weeks is ass, but his play is anything but.
5 weeks, and his last game did not look good at all, nor did his last 3 against effort last month.
At this point I feel that in the same way Flash got #1 in January when Jaedong beat him (which he definitely deserved at that point), Jaedong should get #1 this month even though Flash beat him recently, just because Jaedong has been doing much better besides that one series (or like Calm/Jaedong after than MSL series). Of course when Flash still got #1 in January he had a lot more things going for him than Jaedong has now and so the decision this month is not as clear cut, but in the end I don't think Flash deserves to be #1 right now.
On June 25 2010 01:47 InFdude wrote: Just rename this shit to fanboy ranking. And what's with the guy who got banned for being on the wrong side of the fanboys?
Oh cmon... give the TL moderators a little credit. He was banned for excessively spacing his post - something he's been banned before for doing. None of the other Jaedong fans have been banned so dont be so presumptuous.
On June 24 2010 00:01 adelarge wrote: Still not convinced that JD deserves #1. He is winning his regular games in PL. Flash is too. He qualified for OSL. Flash is already there as well. And...that's all. It would help if JD actually won some ace matches this month, instead of didn't play any (like the one against KT...to bad his own coach apparently wasn't confident in his ability to beat Flash).
Again, your argument is very tenuous, for two reasons: 1) Playing and losing is not the same as not playing. It is worse than not playing. We don't know how Jaedong would have done had he played 5 ace matches this month, true, but the worst he could have done is lose them all, which would make his record this month similar to Flash's. The best he could have done is win them all, which would make his record much much better than Flash's--and there's at least as much justification to imagine that a hypothetical ace match would have been a win as that it would have been a loss. In practice, he might have lost some games, had he played them, but I doubt that anyone (besides yourself, possibly) thinks it very likely that Jaedong would have lost all 5 ace matches had he played them.
2) The above would be true even if regular games and ace games were entirely different beasts, like shooting and skiiing in a biathlon, but of course this is not the case. They are both games of Starcraft: both involve essentially the same skill set to win. Ace matches are more pressured, but that pressure applies equally to both players in the game, and besides, Jaedong and Flash are old hands at dealing with pressure. The distinction between ace matches and regular matches that you are struggling to draw is all but arbitrary. It's scarcely better than arguing, "Flash has only lost TvTs this month--but Jaedong hasn't even played any!"
It's also quite interesting to look at the situation immediately before the MSL finals. Flash suffered some losses in PL and lost OSL finals against Effort. On the other hand Jaedong owned in PL and crushed his opposition on his way to MSL finals. If the PR should come right before the finals, I'm sure lot of people would scream for JD nr. 1 as well. Just look at the first Flash vs Jaedong pool. And we all here remember how the finals turned out. Flash read JD like a book and completely raped him in BO5, when he is supposedly the strongest player ever.
No one's arguing about last month's ranking. Flash was the definitive #1 at that time. At the same time, no one's arguing that Flash's results haven't dropped off significantly since then, whereas Jaedong has been on a tear.
That being said, Flash performance this month isn't quite #1 deserving too lol. But I would still put Flash at first place. More than 8 months of such brutal dominance deserve some benefits of the doubt and the MSL finals is still too fresh to ignore despite some fans trying really hard to do so.
You're entitled to that opinion, and in fact, I'm sure Flash will get the benefit of the doubt, by being ranked above almost every other player in the league despite his mediocre record this month. I don't think that he deserves quite that much leeway against Jaedong, though, simply because Jaedong was also dominating during those months, second only to Flash. In other news, Jaedong's Elo in TLPD is now only 6 points away from Flash's! Remember when it was more like 150?
I agree that the argument isn't particulary strong, but you just have to take these things into account. Had KT been defeated 3:1 entire month, nobody could say a word against Flash at #1, because there wouldn't be any indication about his "ace match slump". If somebody told you Flash would've lose all the ace matches if he played them, you would think he is out of his mind.
Flash right know himself is the argument against judging ace match performance by normal matches, because he is still raping in normal games like JD.
If I put it really shortly: Yes, we know Flash is losing ace matches. No, we don't know how would Jaedong perform. It's very likely that better than Flash, but "very likely" shouldn't put player in #1 spot, especially if he was 3:0ed couple of weeks ago by the very same player he should now overtake.
I think you missunderstand me in one thing - I wasn't saying anything about last ranking. I was thinking about theoretical ranking just before MSL finals. Flash seemed very vulnerable, with two losses to CJ in PL and loss to Effort in OSL, while Jaedong was raping left and right. In fact, Jaedong is raping left and right for some time (as you said), but for change was raped by Flash.
On June 24 2010 00:01 adelarge wrote: Still not convinced that JD deserves #1. He is winning his regular games in PL. Flash is too. He qualified for OSL. Flash is already there as well. And...that's all. It would help if JD actually won some ace matches this month, instead of didn't play any (like the one against KT...to bad his own coach apparently wasn't confident in his ability to beat Flash).
It's also quite interesting to look at the situation immediately before the MSL finals. Flash suffered some losses in PL and lost OSL finals against Effort. On the other hand Jaedong owned in PL and crushed his opposition on his way to MSL finals. If the PR should come right before the finals, I'm sure lot of people would scream for JD nr. 1 as well. Just look at the first Flash vs Jaedong pool. And we all here remember how the finals turned out. Flash read JD like a book and completely raped him in BO5, when he is supposedly the strongest player ever.
That being said, Flash performance this month isn't quite #1 deserving too lol. But I would still put Flash at first place. More than 8 months of such brutal dominance deserve some benefits of the doubt and the MSL finals is still too fresh to ignore despite some fans trying really hard to do so.
Oh my god can you fanboy anymore? Hiya was sent as a sniper because everyone knew Flash was going to be practicing for Jaedong mostly, not because "Jaedong was too scared to play Flash." I've seen people say that as a joke but seriously?
Man I can fanboy you have no idea! I can even show you, if you find where I said "Jaedong was too scared to play Flash." Until then...
On June 24 2010 19:02 Paddington wrote: Flash... has been playing poorly this month, going ~50% and losing horribly in Ace matches. One could argue that, based on current performance, does not deserve to be #1.
Flash isn't "losing horribly." His 50% record in the last two weeks is ass, but his play is anything but. People have figured him out and he's no longer invincible, but that doesn't mean he's a worse player than he was before. It just means his play needs refreshing.
I don't really buy this losing with style, and high level of play argument, although I can see where that would be a problem for Flash. Don't see this as an attack on flash, moreso a confirmation of his level of play, but you never really saw his ability to grind out close wins as his strong point, at least from my perspective. I saw Flash as the quintessential feast-or-famine player in games. More often than not, he would either come unstuck to early aggression, or absolutely steamroll his opponent mid-late game due to complete mechanical superiority and sheer power of control/multitasking.
I mention this because the tendency for him to be unable to win a large proportion of close, arm-wrestle type games has come to the fore. Yes, he weathered quite a bit of aggression and came through with a superb defensive effort in the MSL finals vs Dong, but I get the feeling that, when he gets pushed by a high level of play (and, to be fair, most other players wouldn't stack up to it either), he's fallen short, and hasn't really won the arm-wrestle games.
Now, this might be splitting hairs right now, but, I would rather a guy, who is touted as THE #1 player and a potential bonjwa to win the close games, as well as dominate the one-sided games. Being able to win ugly isn't such a bad thing, but not being able to do it sure as hell is.
On June 25 2010 02:50 cokencheese wrote: People are thinking about this too much. If you were a progamer, who would you be more scared to play at the moment? Jaedong? Flash?
Yeah... not Flash.
It depends actually... and I think that's why it's so hard to say who's on top this month. In anything BUT an ace match, Flash is still VERY scary. I doubt any progamer wants to face him in a BO3 or BO5 for a starleague. Even for a regular PL match, Flash is tearing it up. However, if it's a TvT in an ace match... Flash just can't seem to hold it. I think it's a mental block, but that's just an excuse. The fact of the matter is that Flash is dropping Ace matches, but ONLY ace matches. =/ So, I think people would rather take Flash in Ace, Jaedong in anything else.
On June 25 2010 02:58 Paddington wrote: I get the feeling that, when he gets pushed by a high level of play (and, to be fair, most other players wouldn't stack up to it either), he's fallen short, and hasn't really won the arm-wrestle games.
While his games tend to be more one-sided than the other S-class players, what you said just isn't true. He's shown in the past to be very capable of wresting out games from a massive disadvantage in TvT especially (ironic as that is at the moment) with his games versus Firebathero coming to mind immediately. In more recent memory, during the starleagues all of his games against Kal and Baby were close, and he won every one. He's not as scrappy a player as Jaedong, sure, but Flash's default method of play is steamroll so less of his wins are hard-won battles of will and more are just plain domination. This might come from the territory of playing Terran rather than Zerg, where looking untouchable is more common but comebacks are rarer.
On an unrelated note, here's hoping Bisu keeps up his good play and gets up there with JD and Flash soon. Hating on Protoss just isn't fun when they're all sucking so hard.
On June 25 2010 02:50 cokencheese wrote: People are thinking about this too much. If you were a progamer, who would you be more scared to play at the moment? Jaedong? Flash?
Yeah... not Flash.
MSL group ceremony. Jaedong and Flash are seeds, Flash gets picked last. Yeah okay then.
I don't really buy this losing with style, and high level of play argument, although I can see where that would be a problem for Flash. Don't see this as an attack on flash, moreso a confirmation of his level of play, but you never really saw his ability to grind out close wins as his strong point, at least from my perspective. I saw Flash as the quintessential feast-or-famine player in games. More often than not, he would either come unstuck to early aggression, or absolutely steamroll his opponent mid-late game due to complete mechanical superiority and sheer power of control/multitasking.
I mention this because the tendency for him to be unable to win a large proportion of close, arm-wrestle type games has come to the fore. Yes, he weathered quite a bit of aggression and came through with a superb defensive effort in the MSL finals vs Dong, but I get the feeling that, when he gets pushed by a high level of play (and, to be fair, most other players wouldn't stack up to it either), he's fallen short, and hasn't really won the arm-wrestle games.
Now, this might be splitting hairs right now, but, I would rather a guy, who is touted as THE #1 player and a potential bonjwa to win the close games, as well as dominate the one-sided games. Being able to win ugly isn't such a bad thing, but not being able to do it sure as hell is.
Paddington, that's actually what Flash is known for in TvT, being able to squeeze out close games, even when starting with disadvantages. Go take a look at his TvTs versus FBH as a great example.
In addition, there are like massive threads on this very subject, about how it's easier for Flash to dominate TvT to a level not possible anymore in ZvZ, because of the nature of the matchup (lots of little skirmishes, the more skilled guy coming out on top, etc.), as well as his tenacious mentality of not giving up. Yes, we've seen him get blasted a few times on a TvZ when he 14ccs. But Flash is one of the most tenacious progamers out there, rarely ever gives up (just think about his recent proleague loss to Effort) and during his streak many of his wins were come from behind dude.
On June 25 2010 01:46 Tianx wrote: Of course how important the games are matter. If you go 2-6 in proleague but dominate both a starleague's final and semifinal 6-0, you look waaaaaay better than someone who goes 8-0 in proleague, barely scrapes into the final, and then gets dominated in a final 3-0 even though your record is strictly 'better.' This is of course ignoring play quality in the games itself, which is by far the most important factor.
Wait. Are you saying JD barely scraped into the final? Did you even watch any of his games last month? Every single one was absolute domination. Except the one game he lost to calm and the finals. Flash doesn't deserve to be No. 1 based on his slump. For a similar slump JD was promptly demoted from No. 2 of all places. No. 1 on the Power Rank should have higher standards IMHO.
Flash has certainly won matches from behind, it's silly to claim otherwise. Touting matches against FireBatHero (who is fucking bad) is not a good example of such.
Flash has certainly won matches from behind, it's silly to claim otherwise. Touting matches against FireBatHero (who is fucking bad) is not a good example of such.
Actually he was considered S-Class TvT for quite awhile. And, again, since you clearly have not seen them, they are a great example.
On June 25 2010 01:46 Tianx wrote: Of course how important the games are matter. If you go 2-6 in proleague but dominate both a starleague's final and semifinal 6-0, you look waaaaaay better than someone who goes 8-0 in proleague, barely scrapes into the final, and then gets dominated in a final 3-0 even though your record is strictly 'better.' This is of course ignoring play quality in the games itself, which is by far the most important factor.
Wait. Are you saying JD barely scraped into the final? Did you even watch any of his games last month? Every single one was absolute domination. Except the one game he lost to calm and the finals. Flash doesn't deserve to be No. 1 based on his slump. For a similar slump JD was promptly demoted from No. 2 of all places. No. 1 on the Power Rank should have higher standards IMHO.
This was actually a hypothetical, unlike the fake ones on the last page. I wasn't saying Jaedong wasn't dominant, just that winning the important games counts for a lot more than winning the unimportant ones (which really should be obvious).
On June 25 2010 01:47 InFdude wrote: Just rename this shit to fanboy ranking. And what's with the guy who got banned for being on the wrong side of the fanboys?
Oh cmon... give the TL moderators a little credit. He was banned for excessively spacing his post - something he's been banned before for doing. None of the other Jaedong fans have been banned so dont be so presumptuous.
I have a lot of faith in you TL guys. This is the only forum I visit, for anything, period. But I'll lose a lot of it if Flash is still #1 next month (assuming nothing changes in the next 5 days).
Not because of reasons I made myself, but because I read all the power rankings, and by you guys' own 'said/unsaid' rules, he shouldn't be #1 for July.
edit: Do I think what I said should be so clear as to be easily chosen? Well, not really. But I do think the line is far enough to one side this month that people will have to shake their heads at any other decision. It'd be unjust.
edit2: After more thinking, I guess I could be wrong, but the argument put forth better be dang convincing!
On June 25 2010 00:19 infinity2k9 wrote: Also about Flash losing games that don't matter, when did that ever come into it with the power rank? You can tell by the games Flash is hardly holding back because of the league situation, it's irrelevant to the individual performance.
Of course how important the games are matter. If you go 2-6 in proleague but dominate both a starleague's final and semifinal 6-0, you look waaaaaay better than someone who goes 8-0 in proleague, barely scrapes into the final, and then gets dominated in a final 3-0 even though your record is strictly 'better.' This is of course ignoring play quality in the games itself, which is by far the most important factor.
The ranking is for this month though, and if KT thought the matches were unimportant they would not be sending out Flash every time.
Oh man, back to the "only this month counts!" argument. Why is KT sending him? I don't know, because he has nothing better to do, and they probably keep him in form and let him have a shot at his 60-win goal.
If power ranking was about who had the best month, they would award it for that month at the end, not post a new one in the following. It's a ranking released monthly, and a little bad streak for Flash in the lull between starleagues and meaningful proleague games isn't enough for Jaedong to overcome probably the best 6 months anybody has ever had (with the possible exception of Nada).
On June 25 2010 17:35 SimonB wrote: Oh man, back to the "only this month counts!" argument. Why is KT sending him? I don't know, because he has nothing better to do, and they probably keep him in form and let him have a shot at his 60-win goal.
If power ranking was about who had the best month, they would award it for that month at the end, not post a new one in the following. It's a ranking released monthly, and a little bad streak for Flash in the lull between starleagues and meaningful proleague games isn't enough for Jaedong to overcome probably the best 6 months anybody has ever had (with the possible exception of Nada).
not "only this month counts!" but, the current month has always, in the past, counted the most. why this is changing nowadays is beyond me.
and anyway, i'm not so sure it is. i want to see july's power rank before i say anything much.
Funny, Jaedong was dropped after his OSL win against Fantasy for having a subpar month. Flash should not be the exception to a rule "just because he's Flash."
On June 25 2010 17:35 SimonB wrote: Oh man, back to the "only this month counts!" argument. Why is KT sending him? I don't know, because he has nothing better to do, and they probably keep him in form and let him have a shot at his 60-win goal.
If power ranking was about who had the best month, they would award it for that month at the end, not post a new one in the following. It's a ranking released monthly, and a little bad streak for Flash in the lull between starleagues and meaningful proleague games isn't enough for Jaedong to overcome probably the best 6 months anybody has ever had (with the possible exception of Nada).
not "only this month counts!" but, the current month has always, in the past, counted the most. why this is changing nowadays is beyond me.
and anyway, i'm not so sure it is. i want to see july's power rank before i say anything much.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. When deciding on where players go I always consider the current month and value those results the most. When I'm stuck with a tough decision between two players I look at what they did the previous month as well.
Bisu is back bitches!!!! The revolutionist will win dual finals this time.
Oh wait, I am supposed to hate Bisu.
I'm glad he's back. He better be on the Powerrank this month. Or Plexa will drown in fanboy tears. And I must say drowning in tears is not very pleasant.
On June 25 2010 17:35 SimonB wrote: Oh man, back to the "only this month counts!" argument. Why is KT sending him? I don't know, because he has nothing better to do, and they probably keep him in form and let him have a shot at his 60-win goal.
If power ranking was about who had the best month, they would award it for that month at the end, not post a new one in the following. It's a ranking released monthly, and a little bad streak for Flash in the lull between starleagues and meaningful proleague games isn't enough for Jaedong to overcome probably the best 6 months anybody has ever had (with the possible exception of Nada).
not "only this month counts!" but, the current month has always, in the past, counted the most. why this is changing nowadays is beyond me.
and anyway, i'm not so sure it is. i want to see july's power rank before i say anything much.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. When deciding on where players go I always consider the current month and value those results the most. When I'm stuck with a tough decision between two players I look at what they did the previous month as well.
Sorry Plexa, if there was a beta to play you probably wouldn't be receiving so much harassment!
Naturally, all other things being the same, the most recent results should weigh the most.
I just don't think the difference between a 11-1 month (half of which were against prelim scrubs) versus a 5-5 month is enough to offset the crazy ridiculous amazing results Flash has had just prior to June including another double finals and a thorough 3-0 asskicking he gave JD less than one month ago. (Just reminding everybody, that match was on May 29th. We're less than four weeks past it.)
On June 26 2010 06:43 SuperArc wrote: Last two months:
Flash: 23-11 JD: 24-5
Flash already had his benefit of doubt. JD has been playing monstrous lately.
Where has he had the benefit of the doubt. Just last month, he was considered the undisputed, unequaled greatest player on earth without even a close rival.
This month, he goes on a minor bad streak in meaningless games (Oh NO! .500 winning percentage), and you want to kick him off.
On June 26 2010 06:43 SuperArc wrote: Last two months:
Flash: 23-11 JD: 24-5
Flash already had his benefit of doubt. JD has been playing monstrous lately.
Where has he had the benefit of the doubt. Just last month, he was considered the undisputed, unequaled greatest player on earth without even a close rival.
This month, he goes on a minor bad streak in meaningless games (Oh NO! .500 winning percentage), and you want to kick him off.
On June 26 2010 06:43 SuperArc wrote: Last two months:
Flash: 23-11 JD: 24-5
Flash already had his benefit of doubt. JD has been playing monstrous lately.
Where has he had the benefit of the doubt. Just last month, he was considered the undisputed, unequaled greatest player on earth without even a close rival.
This month, he goes on a minor bad streak in meaningless games (Oh NO! .500 winning percentage), and you want to kick him off.
note: rolster icon.
Meaningless games? If losing 7 proleague ace matches in a row is meaningless I'm Mickey Mouse, that's about as meaningful as it gets.
Jaedong was dropped to #3 after going 13-4.
You've got to be kidding me if you're saying that's your objective analysis.
On June 26 2010 06:43 SuperArc wrote: Last two months:
Flash: 23-11 JD: 24-5
Flash already had his benefit of doubt. JD has been playing monstrous lately.
Where has he had the benefit of the doubt. Just last month, he was considered the undisputed, unequaled greatest player on earth without even a close rival.
This month, he goes on a minor bad streak in meaningless games (Oh NO! .500 winning percentage), and you want to kick him off.
Flash was not even considered the favorite to win the MSL; Jaedong was. And Flash lost to effort a week before that. For people so "undisputed, unequaled" he sure has looked incredibly mediocre lately going 5-5 in his last 10 games and losing the last 6 ace matches in a row. If STX did not pick this time to do horrible in PL, KT would no longer even be the #1 seed, which is pretty meaningful. You just do not drop that many games because of bad luck.
Just for a change a pace, how far do you think Effort should drop? Personally, I'd like to see him cnbc'd. No doubt he's good but he's been too streaky for too long to get any benefit of the doubt and his only decent win is against kwanro
On June 26 2010 06:43 SuperArc wrote: Last two months:
Flash: 23-11 JD: 24-5
Flash already had his benefit of doubt. JD has been playing monstrous lately.
Where has he had the benefit of the doubt. Just last month, he was considered the undisputed, unequaled greatest player on earth without even a close rival.
This month, he goes on a minor bad streak in meaningless games (Oh NO! .500 winning percentage), and you want to kick him off.
Flash was not even considered the favorite to win the MSL; Jaedong was.
Really? Because I could have sworn there was a lot of talk from the Korean community that for the first time Flash was entering a bo5 against Jaedong not as the underdog.
On June 26 2010 09:02 n.DieJokes wrote: Just for a change a pace, how far do you think Effort should drop? Personally, I'd like to see him cnbc'd. No doubt he's good but he's been too streaky for too long to get any benefit of the doubt and his only decent win is against kwanro
He shouldn't even be CBNC. Terrible play this month, shouldn't even matter that he was the (fluky) OSL winner.
Flash clearly has a problem, but I'm confident he'll manage it. I think the main problem is his TvT, a bit like when Jaedong started to have problem with his ZvZ, everyone catching up with him. Look where we are today... He'll just have to rework it, I guess he was overconfident for too long. As for the ranking, I guess Jaedong should be number one... But I'm positive Flash is the favorite against anyone in a BO5. Those are two different things KT fans :p
On June 26 2010 06:43 SuperArc wrote: Last two months:
Flash: 23-11 JD: 24-5
Flash already had his benefit of doubt. JD has been playing monstrous lately.
Let's go even another month back. Flash: 39-14 JD: 33-10
Jaedong fully deserves #1 this month for his performance of the last THREE months.
Terrible comparison because if you look at just the previous month Flash: 16-3 JD: 9-5 (Using your own numbers)
Which means that even WITH the great record Flash had in April, Jaedong still has a greater win percentage because of his RECENT performance. You need to take it back to March to give Flash the higher win percentage again.
On June 26 2010 06:43 SuperArc wrote: Last two months:
Flash: 23-11 JD: 24-5
Flash already had his benefit of doubt. JD has been playing monstrous lately.
Where has he had the benefit of the doubt. Just last month, he was considered the undisputed, unequaled greatest player on earth without even a close rival.
This month, he goes on a minor bad streak in meaningless games (Oh NO! .500 winning percentage), and you want to kick him off.
Flash was not even considered the favorite to win the MSL; Jaedong was.
Really? Because I could have sworn there was a lot of talk from the Korean community that for the first time Flash was entering a bo5 against Jaedong not as the underdog.
Everyone thought Flash would win Nate MSL, it was completely different for last season.
I personally wish Flash would stop sucking. I want him to play perfectly and own all the noobs in PL so when Jaedong beats him in the OSL it'll mean something >
On June 26 2010 18:53 danl9rm wrote: I personally wish Flash would stop sucking. I want him to play perfectly and own all the noobs in PL so when Jaedong beats him in the OSL it'll mean something >
Flash is only sucking at TvT. Jaedong will have to swap races to beat him!
On June 26 2010 18:53 danl9rm wrote: I personally wish Flash would stop sucking. I want him to play perfectly and own all the noobs in PL so when Jaedong beats him in the OSL it'll mean something >
Flash is only sucking at TvT. Jaedong will have to swap races to beat him!
On June 26 2010 18:53 danl9rm wrote: I personally wish Flash would stop sucking. I want him to play perfectly and own all the noobs in PL so when Jaedong beats him in the OSL it'll mean something >
The only one that can stop Jaedong is Flash! There is no other Protoss, Terran or Zerg that can do that in a BO5 matchup.
After total domination, Flash has begun having problem with his TvT. Thats all. Is it enough to drop him? Let's wait and see, the PR isn't going out today.
On June 27 2010 01:45 StylishVODs wrote: After total domination, Flash has begun having problem with his TvT. Thats all. Is it enough to drop him? Let's wait and see, the PR isn't going out today.
We only have one more day with Flash/JD playing. That's Monday. So we can practically already talk/decide about #1 and #2.
On June 27 2010 01:45 StylishVODs wrote: After total domination, Flash has begun having problem with his TvT. Thats all. Is it enough to drop him? Let's wait and see, the PR isn't going out today.
We only have one more day with Flash/JD playing. That's Monday. So we can practically already talk/decide about #1 and #2.
On June 27 2010 01:45 StylishVODs wrote: After total domination, Flash has begun having problem with his TvT. Thats all. Is it enough to drop him? Let's wait and see, the PR isn't going out today.
We only have one more day with Flash/JD playing. That's Monday. So we can practically already talk/decide about #1 and #2.
A lot can happen in a day. If one player goes 2-0 and the other 0-2 in proleague, for example, that would make a big difference.
On June 27 2010 01:45 StylishVODs wrote: After total domination, Flash has begun having problem with his TvT. Thats all. Is it enough to drop him? Let's wait and see, the PR isn't going out today.
We only have one more day with Flash/JD playing. That's Monday. So we can practically already talk/decide about #1 and #2.
A lot can happen in a day. If one player goes 2-0 and the other 0-2 in proleague, for example, that would make a big difference.
The thing is, Jaedong can't go 0-2 because if he loses the first game, the team loses =P
Edit: should reword that. The team is never getting to an ace match without Jaedong winning. And yes, even against ACE, lol.
On June 27 2010 01:45 StylishVODs wrote: After total domination, Flash has begun having problem with his TvT. Thats all. Is it enough to drop him? Let's wait and see, the PR isn't going out today.
We only have one more day with Flash/JD playing. That's Monday. So we can practically already talk/decide about #1 and #2.
A lot can happen in a day. If one player goes 2-0 and the other 0-2 in proleague, for example, that would make a big difference.
The thing is, Jaedong can't go 0-2 because if he loses the first game, the team loses =P
Edit: should reword that. The team is never getting to an ace match without Jaedong winning. And yes, even against ACE, lol.
Sure they can! All they need is for two of Lomo, Perfectman, and Killer to win... oh wait...
JD should be first, flash second. Losing all your PL Ace matches isn't really that easy to look past, especially when Jaedong has been playing pretty much better than ever.
Oh yeah, and I hope we'll see s2 in the PR. He should have been there even last month, but after continuing to do so well this month as well, it would be awesome.
FLASH STOP THIS NOW, YOU DO NOT YET BELONG BELOW FIRST PLACE!
Seriously though... Yeah, he's been playing quite off. Sad to say that JD deserves first place more than him. My only hope is that Flash doesn't go below 2nd as well... But I'm not losing faith! Flash will return stronger than ever! AGAIN!
Right now Bisu has been on a 7-game win-streak starting with his game against 815 in the Survivor Tourney. But games alone aren't everything. He has secured himself a spot in the OSL ro16, something he hasn't done for a few OSLs now, and hes qualified for the MSL. Quality-wise for the games, Most of them (especially the OSL ones) have shown Bisu outplaying his opponents, and showing great micromanagement as well as strong macro.
Of course, despite this 7 game win-streak there are a few things to note. Every single game that Bisu played was against some player who isn't notably good atm, so you can say that Bisu's opponents have been "easy." Also, his entire streak consists of PvT and PvZ matches, which means we have yet to see if Bisu has fixed up his PvP (but from his OSL prelims and loss to Much, I'd say he still needs to work on it).
So I'd Say Bisu is a candidate for the power rank, but my guess is that hes probly not gonna get ranked higher than 7th, if he is put on.
Right now Bisu has been on a 7-game win-streak starting with his game against 815 in the Survivor Tourney. But games alone aren't everything. He has secured himself a spot in the OSL ro16, something he hasn't done for a few OSLs now, and hes qualified for the MSL. Quality-wise for the games, Most of them (especially the OSL ones) have shown Bisu outplaying his opponents, and showing great micromanagement as well as strong macro.
Of course, despite this 7 game win-streak there are a few things to note. Every single game that Bisu played was against some player who isn't notably good atm, so you can say that Bisu's opponents have been "easy." Also, his entire streak consists of PvT and PvZ matches, which means we have yet to see if Bisu has fixed up his PvP (but from his OSL prelims and loss to Much, I'd say he still needs to work on it).
So I'd Say Bisu is a candidate for the power rank, but my guess is that hes probly not gonna get ranked higher than 7th, if he is put on.
i agree the matches were pretty one sided and very inovative but still we're talking about roro mind and hyvaa ,,,, when he'll beat someone in the pr or top 10 elo than we should talk about it we know he has the potential since we know his past deeds but still since his comeback he has yet deserved a power rank maybe remark in the cnbc (might i remind u he hasnt played too many games on proleague cause he practiced for the starleague)
For #3 probably Fantasy. At this point he's 9-2 for the month, looking strong.
After that it gets harder. I think the following names deserve PR spots for sure: Great, Sea, Baby, SkyHigh, Snow, Bisu, Free
...And maybe: Hiya, Leta (busy month against a pretty hard roster), s2, ForGG, or Stats, or even Roro (probably 1,2 or 3 of these guys should be on PR, the rest CBNC)
Effort should probably be on CBNC. He's looking shaky all of a sudden, but I have trouble seeing PR without his name on the momentum he's riding.
In retrospect: -Roro maybe was a better candidate for #10 than Shine. I had concerns that Roro is unproven, but even though he didn't have a great month, I feel like he's playing slightly more solid SC and is developing a more dangerous reputation. -s2 is doing better than Hyuk. There wasn't enough data last month to see this yet, but right now I believe it. -Snow really was too high. #1 PvT in the world, yeah, but his PvZ and PvP have some kinks. -Stats should have been where Shuttle is on the PR. Shuttle should have been on the CBNC. Stats is better. -If Light had beaten Brave, I would say at least CBNC worthy. He's probably the #2 TvZ in the world. But his TvP is terribad 90% of the time. The shame is that he actually can TvP sometimes. In comparison, ForGG worries me a bit too since like Light he is eating Zergs left and right, but his TvT and TvP are a bit unstable right now. However, they are more stable, so I think ForGG is at least CBNC worthy. I'd hesitate to rank him though.
OFF PR (including CBNC): Kal, Shuttle, Midas, Shine, Calm, Hyuk
On June 26 2010 06:43 SuperArc wrote: Last two months:
Flash: 23-11 JD: 24-5
Flash already had his benefit of doubt. JD has been playing monstrous lately.
Where has he had the benefit of the doubt. Just last month, he was considered the undisputed, unequaled greatest player on earth without even a close rival.
This month, he goes on a minor bad streak in meaningless games (Oh NO! .500 winning percentage), and you want to kick him off.
Flash was not even considered the favorite to win the MSL; Jaedong was.
Really? Because I could have sworn there was a lot of talk from the Korean community that for the first time Flash was entering a bo5 against Jaedong not as the underdog.
for the first time? The MSL finals before everyone was saying Flash was going to beat Jaedong. But Jaedong won (not going into anything about the power outage so please dont' say it, Jaedong won its over).
I also think it was pretty even in terms of who people thought would win it seemed about 50/50 for flash or jaedong on the previous finals.
Plexa's still putting Flash at 1 ;_; Also Jaedong 2 for sure.
Umm, in no special order: Bisu, Snow, great, EffOrt (maybe?), Leta (maybe?), s2 (doing well), Hyuk (hyuk hyuk? ...Hyuk hyuk hyuk! Hyuk hyuk hyuk hyuk...), BeSt (maybe), fantasy (maybe).
On June 28 2010 14:33 flamewheel wrote: Plexa's still putting Flash at 1 ;_; Also Jaedong 2 for sure.
Umm, in no special order: Bisu, Snow, great, EffOrt (maybe?), Leta (maybe?), s2 (doing well), Hyuk (hyuk hyuk? ...Hyuk hyuk hyuk! Hyuk hyuk hyuk hyuk...), BeSt (maybe), fantasy (maybe).
Poor Plexa, he's going to get fanboy disagreement (possibly hate?) either way he chooses.
Nobody in the history of PR got double finals two seasons in a row, while simultaneously carrying his team to the #1 seed in proleague.
Blah blah blah, that's the past. It's what happens now that matters.
Except none of the games this month were consequential in anything. Flash taking it easy before his OSL/MSL matches. Jaedong's difference in wins this month is made from preseason wins over the vaunted players Rush, Juni, Reach (no offense, my friend), and fOru, less than one month after a certain MSL finals.
On June 28 2010 20:39 SimonB wrote: Nobody in the history of PR got double finals two seasons in a row, while simultaneously carrying his team to the #1 seed in proleague.
Blah blah blah, that's the past. It's what happens now that matters.
Except none of the games this month were consequential in anything. Flash taking it easy before his OSL/MSL matches. Jaedong's difference in wins this month is made from preseason wins over the vaunted players Rush, Juni, Reach (no offense, my friend), and fOru, less than one month after a certain MSL finals.
..... at least he isn't losing half his games -_-
Really, this is EXACTLY how Jaedong lost his #1 right after getting the golden mouse.
On June 28 2010 20:39 SimonB wrote: Nobody in the history of PR got double finals two seasons in a row, while simultaneously carrying his team to the #1 seed in proleague.
Blah blah blah, that's the past. It's what happens now that matters.
Except none of the games this month were consequential in anything. Flash taking it easy before his OSL/MSL matches. Jaedong's difference in wins this month is made from preseason wins over the vaunted players Rush, Juni, Reach (no offense, my friend), and fOru, less than one month after a certain MSL finals.
I dont think players should be allowed to retain their #1 PR spot on the basis that they have been "taking it easy so it doesnt count".
On June 28 2010 20:02 SuperArc wrote: So Flash went 5-6 this month (45% win rate).
That's a negative win rate and I dont think no one in the history of the PR got #1 with a negative record...
Now we will see how much Plexa doesn't like Jaedong...
Flash is holding his #1 spot in PR for a half a year now. Just in last month the guy set a new record by getting gold+silver two seasons sequentially (meanwhile beating the closest contender for the best player in an utterly one sided fashion, leaving him without a gold whatsoever). He also broke 4000 points mark of Kespa rankings, which is absolutely ridiculous. And this month, despite having negative win rate, he set new record of number of wins in one proleague season (though he wasn't able to reach his own goal of 60 wins, but that's a different story). He deserves benefit of the doubt, no?
Hwaseung OZ hopes for a playoff went down the drain. This is what people should consider when they talk about most important games, not some random ace TvT loses. You see, that's the crucial difference between Flash's and JD's situation. Flash worked so hard before that his loses now are only a personal matter. Now this month JD had to show same exceptional performance as Flash showed before for his team to have any hopes for a playoff spot and in the end he failed. That's the difference between best and second best player.
Hwaseung OZ hopes for a playoff went down the drain. This is what people should consider when they talk about most important games, not some random ace TvT loses. You see, that's the crucial difference between Flash's and JD's situation. Flash worked so hard before that his loses now are only a personal matter. Now this month JD had to show same exceptional performance as Flash showed before for his team to have any hopes for a playoff spot and in the end he failed. That's the difference between best and second best player.
You are a bit ill informed when you attribute OZ not making the playoffs to Jaedongs failure. If you exlucde winners league, JDs and Flashs performances throughout the season is nearly exactly the same. KT is simply the so much better team. Of course Flashs season has been better because of Winnersleague, but that is not the difference between #1 and #8. If JD had actually played some ace matches in R1 instead of Killer, things would look different now. Jaedong is basically in a position where he has to win the last 20 games of the season for his team to have a shot at the playoffs, and today he failed after 14 wins.
I believe both Flash and Jaedong could be first this month, it's a matter of opinion right now. I personally feel that someone with a negative record during the last month should not be #1 at a ranking which reflects power in the first place, no matter how dominant he has been before. On the other hand, Jadeong could have made a strong case for himself if he had gone 2-0 against ACE today, but he couldn't connect.
So sadly I won't be able to hate on Plexa next month, both choices would be justified.
On June 28 2010 20:02 SuperArc wrote: So Flash went 5-6 this month (45% win rate).
That's a negative win rate and I dont think no one in the history of the PR got #1 with a negative record...
Now we will see how much Plexa doesn't like Jaedong...
Flash is holding his #1 spot in PR for a half a year now. Just in last month the guy set a new record by getting gold+silver two seasons sequentially (meanwhile beating the closest contender for the best player in an utterly one sided fashion, leaving him without a gold whatsoever). He also broke 4000 points mark of Kespa rankings, which is absolutely ridiculous. And this month, despite having negative win rate, he set new record of number of wins in one proleague season (though he wasn't able to reach his own goal of 60 wins, but that's a different story). He deserves benefit of the doubt, no?
Hwaseung OZ hopes for a playoff went down the drain. This is what people should consider when they talk about most important games, not some random ace TvT loses. You see, that's the crucial difference between Flash's and JD's situation. Flash worked so hard before that his loses now are only a personal matter. Now this month JD had to show same exceptional performance as Flash showed before for his team to have any hopes for a playoff spot and in the end he failed. That's the difference between best and second best player.
A 45% winrate for the month is sooooooooooooooo deserving of the #1 spot. These are the new rules people.
On June 28 2010 20:39 SimonB wrote: Nobody in the history of PR got double finals two seasons in a row, while simultaneously carrying his team to the #1 seed in proleague.
Blah blah blah, that's the past. It's what happens now that matters.
Except none of the games this month were consequential in anything. Flash taking it easy before his OSL/MSL matches. Jaedong's difference in wins this month is made from preseason wins over the vaunted players Rush, Juni, Reach (no offense, my friend), and fOru, less than one month after a certain MSL finals.
Since when was the importance of the proleague games taken into account for the power rank? Flash is clearly not holding back for the games so its irrelevant. He's playing to the best of his ability and he's losing.
On June 28 2010 14:33 flamewheel wrote: Plexa's still putting Flash at 1 ;_; Also Jaedong 2 for sure.
Umm, in no special order: Bisu, Snow, great, EffOrt (maybe?), Leta (maybe?), s2 (doing well), Hyuk (hyuk hyuk? ...Hyuk hyuk hyuk! Hyuk hyuk hyuk hyuk...), BeSt (maybe), fantasy (maybe).
Poor Plexa, he's going to get fanboy disagreement (possibly hate?) either way he chooses.
JD and Flash, both are fine at #1, so he cant do anything wrong. Fanboys will always flame.
On June 28 2010 20:39 SimonB wrote: Nobody in the history of PR got double finals two seasons in a row, while simultaneously carrying his team to the #1 seed in proleague.
Blah blah blah, that's the past. It's what happens now that matters.
Except none of the games this month were consequential in anything. Flash taking it easy before his OSL/MSL matches. Jaedong's difference in wins this month is made from preseason wins over the vaunted players Rush, Juni, Reach (no offense, my friend), and fOru, less than one month after a certain MSL finals.
..... at least he isn't losing half his games -_-
Really, this is EXACTLY how Jaedong lost his #1 right after getting the golden mouse.
Well, the circumstances are similar, but not exactly the same. Flash back then had perfect record, JD now hasn't. It seems pretty unfair to say that, but today lost to Yellow was more damaging than all Flash's losses this month...
And more importantly, JD didn't rape Flash just thirty days ago when he lost his spot. Really, if JD insted of Effort won the OSL against Flash, I would have nothing against him being #1. Or if he at least kept some dignity in the MSL games. Or if Effort has this month Jaedong's results, again, clear #1.
It's hard. I hoped Flash would've stepped his game and leave no doubts, but he hasn't. I can see both of them at first place pretty easily. But the fanboy inside me want Flash, because he would set new record for consecutive #1 PR appearance, lol (currently Flash and Bisu both has 8 month streak).
Hey but you know what? Flash losses this month were purely on purpose! KT is bound to be #1 in PL, but that itself isn't enough to actually win the grand finals. And current KT "strategy" was Flash win one game, somebody else the second, then Flash deliver in ace. It obviously won't work in finals, which are BO7. So Flash started to losing in ace matches, so his teammates have to step up. And see, it's working! Today is the first time in ages KT won without Flash.
On June 28 2010 20:02 SuperArc wrote: So Flash went 5-6 this month (45% win rate).
That's a negative win rate and I dont think no one in the history of the PR got #1 with a negative record...
Now we will see how much Plexa doesn't like Jaedong...
Flash is holding his #1 spot in PR for a half a year now. Just in last month the guy set a new record by getting gold+silver two seasons sequentially (meanwhile beating the closest contender for the best player in an utterly one sided fashion, leaving him without a gold whatsoever). He also broke 4000 points mark of Kespa rankings, which is absolutely ridiculous. And this month, despite having negative win rate, he set new record of number of wins in one proleague season (though he wasn't able to reach his own goal of 60 wins, but that's a different story). He deserves benefit of the doubt, no?
Hwaseung OZ hopes for a playoff went down the drain. This is what people should consider when they talk about most important games, not some random ace TvT loses. You see, that's the crucial difference between Flash's and JD's situation. Flash worked so hard before that his loses now are only a personal matter. Now this month JD had to show same exceptional performance as Flash showed before for his team to have any hopes for a playoff spot and in the end he failed. That's the difference between best and second best player.
A 45% winrate for the month is sooooooooooooooo deserving of the #1 spot. These are the new rules people.
You wanna winrates? ;P
Out of 9 players JD had won over this month only 3 (stats, BaBy, Modesty) have 50%+ winrate vs Zerg. All Flash opponents except Ruby were Terran snipers If JD went 45% against his opponents he wouldn't deserve to be at PR at all, that's how bad they were. And you're telling that wins over them gonna overshadow his utter defeat in the most recent finals?
On June 28 2010 20:39 SimonB wrote: Nobody in the history of PR got double finals two seasons in a row, while simultaneously carrying his team to the #1 seed in proleague.
Blah blah blah, that's the past. It's what happens now that matters.
Except none of the games this month were consequential in anything. Flash taking it easy before his OSL/MSL matches. Jaedong's difference in wins this month is made from preseason wins over the vaunted players Rush, Juni, Reach (no offense, my friend), and fOru, less than one month after a certain MSL finals.
..... at least he isn't losing half his games -_-
Really, this is EXACTLY how Jaedong lost his #1 right after getting the golden mouse.
Well, the circumstances are similar, but not exactly the same. Flash back then had perfect record, JD now hasn't. It seems pretty unfair to say that, but today lost to Yellow was more damaging than all Flash's losses this month...
And more importantly, JD didn't rape Flash just thirty days ago when he lost his spot. Really, if JD insted of Effort won the OSL against Flash, I would have nothing against him being #1. Or if he at least kept some dignity in the MSL games. Or if Effort has this month Jaedong's results, again, clear #1.
Absolutely agree with both paragraphs =)
Besides, back then Flash weren't titleless like JD now. He won GOM S3 in the same week as JD got his golden mouse and he had went to the finals without dropping a single game
I wouldn't mind Jaedong being #1 if not for a certain roflstomp that occured 30 days ago sure, Jaedong is winning more games this month, but he didn't really accomplish anything spectacular enough to overthrow Flash from his throne. To be honest he didn't really have an opportunity to do so, but that's how it is when you're being compared to back to back dual finalist with fresh gold under his belt
> This is a terrible debate. Flash has a losing record this month. End of story. This isn't about how Flash stacks up against Player X, this is about the fact that if you have a losing record, you can't remain as #1 on the PR. I don't care if last month you recently jumped in front of a speeding metro train to save an infant. If you sucked this month, you're moving down.
> Jaedong has had a great month, far better than EffOrt's (who has had a slightly better month than Flash, due in part to the early rounds of the MSL) therefore he should be #1. End of story.
> EffOrt should fall and deserves to, but I'm always hesitant to drop someone from the PR after getting such a high spot the previous month unless they've really sucked terribly, and EffOrt hasn't. Back end of the PR.
> Fantasy has had the best month of anyone, if you count difficulty of matches with results. He's #3 this month, with a possible try at #2 if he can win convincingly again. He's been the best terran this month, and is the main reason for SKT1's revival. Bisu is riding his coattails right now.
> Speaking of which, Bisu's had a great month, going 7-1 against some strong opponents; (RorO, sKyHigh, Mind, hyvaa). We shouldn't get too caught up in the Bisu's comeback hype quite yet, he's been slumping for so long that he doesn't really have much PR caché left over. Teams have also likely been preparing for fantasy, Hyuk and BeSt more than Bisu, so it's possible that he's sneaking up on people. Back end of the PR.
> BaBy's had a winning month (barely) and two of this three losses have come against top flight opponents in BeSt and Jaedong. But BaBy's at the point where we expect him to win games against this opposition, and I can't see him doing any better than keeping his current spot, or possibly dropping down a few.
> Poor Kal's had a bad month, a losing month. He dropped last month after a so-so time of it. Surely he'll fall off the rank and into the CNBC this time. He's really got to pick it up, and help out the rest of his teammates. He's the best player on STX, and they're not going anywhere if he can't lift them up.
> Snow's gone 5-3 this month, with only two of his wins against terran. He beat a good PvP'er in Violet, and lost in a shootout to the PvP master Shuttle. He beat Kwanro in PvZ and lost narrowly to Hyuk in a fun macro-fest on Judgment Day. Yes his PvT is sublime, but credit where credit is due, Snow's other match-ups aren't as shaky as they're made out to be.
> Sea makes his triumphant return to the PR after playing some great games and helping revive MBC's fortunes somewhat. In the same vein, Leta has been playing well (last night's performance nonwithstanding) and remains a bright spot in the sorry mess that is Hite Sparkyz. PR for both.
Oh and also....
> great sucks, has sucks, and will continue to suck. It's a pity he's gone 9-2 against quality opposition this month, because we know he's on a losing team and that we'll have a hard time erasing his suckyness from the PR if he's not playing.
On June 29 2010 01:46 tree.hugger wrote: > Speaking of which, Bisu's had a great month, going 7-1 against some strong opponents; (RorO, sKyHigh, Mind, hyvaa).
How are those strong opponents at all?
I mean, skyhigh tvp? Hyvaa zvp? Also, Mind's tvp hasn't exactly been relevant in ages. All that's missing is like Casy tvp and modesty zvp and he may very well have the most lol month ever as a Protoss. These are people who probably go 50/50 with the Protoss AI in practice games. (Also Yarnc if he wasn't banned from pro-gaming.)
On June 28 2010 20:39 SimonB wrote: Nobody in the history of PR got double finals two seasons in a row, while simultaneously carrying his team to the #1 seed in proleague.
Blah blah blah, that's the past. It's what happens now that matters.
Except none of the games this month were consequential in anything. Flash taking it easy before his OSL/MSL matches. Jaedong's difference in wins this month is made from preseason wins over the vaunted players Rush, Juni, Reach (no offense, my friend), and fOru, less than one month after a certain MSL finals.
..... at least he isn't losing half his games -_-
Really, this is EXACTLY how Jaedong lost his #1 right after getting the golden mouse.
Let's clear up this misconception, shall we? Firstly, I was not the author of that ranking (although I had a part to play in it). In the month after jaedong won the osl, he retained his #1 rank (this is september 09) and in the month after that (i.e. golden mouse was 2 months ago now...) he went 3-3 with wins over kal, yellow and zero and losses to zero, fail-hyuk and 815. 2/3rds of his losses were to scrubs and one of his wins was over yellow who stilled sucked back then (not any more, i dare say!). In that same month, Flash went 10-0 sweeping his MST group and OSL group and looking damn good doing it. Further, let me quote riptide:
For once, I predict there will be a ruckus about how high Jaedong is on the PR. The truth is, The Tyrant was clearly not at his best in October. Dropping ZvZs to Zero, Hyuk and 815, he looked pretty bad. Having said that, no one except Flash looked really good this month either, and while going 2 - 3 will drop him down one slot to make way for the marauding KT Terran, it's not going to make him drop to Calm. Of course, he's going to have to seriously pull his weight in November if he wants to stay in the top three for long.
Now compare that to this month; all of Flashs losses coming to people with absurdly good PvT, and not looking bad in any (except the game against really on MP) and he went 1-1 with a number of those players as well. Further, Jaedong went 6-1 this month (I wouldn't count him winning his osl prelims group, there was no one worthy of competition in that group. Indeed, if he hadn't have advanced with a perfect record i would have been surprised). You can bring up Jaedong's 14-0 PL streak but then you should consider that Jaedong got 0-3'd by Flash in the same period of time. Further, Flash's MSL win is still very much relevant, it's been ~30days since that roflstomp, whereas (as mentioned) when Jaedong got dropped his OSL win was around 2 months old by then. Lastly, another question that should be considered when a decision is this fine is who is the more scary opponent for a player at the moment? Think about that for a bit...
With those misconceptions cleared up, let's continue the discussion.
On June 29 2010 01:46 tree.hugger wrote: > Speaking of which, Bisu's had a great month, going 7-1 against some strong opponents; (RorO, sKyHigh, Mind, hyvaa).
How are those strong opponents at all?
I mean, skyhigh tvp? Hyvaa zvp? Also, Mind's tvp hasn't exactly been relevant in ages. All that's missing is like Casy tvp and modesty zvp and he may very well have the most lol month ever as a Protoss. These are people who probably go 50/50 with the Protoss AI in practice games. (Also Yarnc if he wasn't banned from pro-gaming.)
They're still A team and bisu absolutely destroyed them. I'm not a bisu fan, but I was in awe of that performance.
> great sucks, has sucks, and will continue to suck. It's a pity he's gone 9-2 against quality opposition this month, because we know he's on a losing team and that we'll have a hard time erasing his suckyness from the PR if he's not playing.
The fuck how does he suck if he goes 9-2 against ''quality opposition''???
And wtf is up with ''losing team''???
Khan is actually on a roll atm and its not inconciveable that they grab the 6th spot from CJ with a bit of luck.
> great sucks, has sucks, and will continue to suck. It's a pity he's gone 9-2 against quality opposition this month, because we know he's on a losing team and that we'll have a hard time erasing his suckyness from the PR if he's not playing.
The fuck how does he suck if he goes 9-2 against ''quality opposition''???
And wtf is up with ''losing team''???
Khan is actually on a roll atm and its not inconciveable that they grab the 6th spot from CJ with a bit of luck.
> great sucks, has sucks, and will continue to suck. It's a pity he's gone 9-2 against quality opposition this month, because we know he's on a losing team and that we'll have a hard time erasing his suckyness from the PR if he's not playing.
The fuck how does he suck if he goes 9-2 against ''quality opposition''???
Behind every good player theres always some people on forums who think they somehow understand pro starcraft more and are qualified to say how that player sucks and is overrated. I usually try to ignore them, i advise you to do the same ; ).
I dont know about who should get #1 though, im a huge Flash fan but i like JD a lot too and im really doubting Flash at the moment because his losses are just stacking up, its not like its 2 or 3 of them. I didnt watch todays games yet tho.
seriously. Most players in the current power rank played quite mediocre this month anyways, especially effort. I mean who cares if #10 is shuttle or s2. ACE man! reach, yellow, gorush, anytime.. ACE gets owned all the time, but not this round. I think they deserve a spot.
On June 29 2010 02:10 Plexa wrote: Lastly, another question that should be considered when a decision is this fine is who is the more scary opponent for a player at the moment? Think about that for a bit...
Jaedong clearly is. Flash is looking more unsettled every match, and his losses have now extended beyond ace games alone. And "playing well" in those games only goes so far if he still loses in the end, especially against players like Ruby or Hiya, who are not top TvTers. Jaedong is also "playing well," even in his one lost game, one of the greatest ZvZs of all time.
And if we're bringing up matchup specialists, Jaedong disposed of ZvZ specialist Modesty with ease.
On June 29 2010 02:10 Plexa wrote: Lastly, another question that should be considered when a decision is this fine is who is the more scary opponent for a player at the moment? Think about that for a bit...
Jaedong clearly is. Flash is looking more unsettled every match, and his losses have now extended beyond ace games alone. And "playing well" in those games only goes so far if he still loses in the end, especially against players like Ruby or Hiya, who are not top TvTers. Jaedong is also "playing well," even in his one lost game, one of the greatest ZvZs of all time.
Yeah, I doubt many terrans are scared of Flash's TvT nowadays, especially in ace matches. They know he is far from invicible. They even say so in interviews. And all zergs still fear Jaedong.
Hopefully the MSL games on July 1st will be factored into the upcoming Power Rank. It's been done before, and I think it would be very helpful in this case.
Plexa, I will stop bothering you for a long time if you answer what you think of he Stats, if not now, or the next PR (which I think he deserves, especially considering what you wrote to him in CBNC). He lost to roro in the MSL, only to advance later (in what was kinda poor game against Kwanro) Then he lost to Baby, but everyone (except the DONG) loses to him nowadays). Then Stats lost to Flying (thats 1 loss in pvt and pvp and 2 pvz, mind you). Then looking at the wins he had against Shuttle (mr 80% pvp rate..!) against Zero and Effort. Though they both might've not lived to to their full potential they still are some of the best zvp out there. Make up some love for the chin, Kim Dae Yeob.
Also make a case for Roro, this guy has been on a tear lately.
On June 29 2010 05:53 SuperArc wrote: Stats fully deserves to be on the PR. He's one of the top tosses.
Also the only KT player I like (excluding Flash) cuz he's clutch. ^_^
cmon, seriously, you cant dislike Kang Min, I mean, cmon.
Actual players...
No one can hate Reach, Nal_Ra, yellow (even though they are all bought )
Who said I didnt mean Hoejja? (even though he plays terribad atm he is such a likeable person) (; It's not like the others is an active part of KT right now. Even though Reach / Yellow is probally gonna come back to KT afterwards. But ofc you cant hate either one of them... Unless you are Djetterstyle who hates rA with a passion... Anyways he isnt acctive so that doesnt matter :p
On June 29 2010 01:46 tree.hugger wrote: > Speaking of which, Bisu's had a great month, going 7-1 against some strong opponents; (RorO, sKyHigh, Mind, hyvaa).
How are those strong opponents at all?
I mean, skyhigh tvp? Hyvaa zvp? Also, Mind's tvp hasn't exactly been relevant in ages. All that's missing is like Casy tvp and modesty zvp and he may very well have the most lol month ever as a Protoss. These are people who probably go 50/50 with the Protoss AI in practice games. (Also Yarnc if he wasn't banned from pro-gaming.)
All veteran A-team players. All shown the ability to win games at a high level. All four have appeared on the PR at various times. They deserve the label 'strong'. And so might Bisu.
On June 29 2010 02:10 Plexa wrote: Now compare that to this month; all of Flash's losses coming to people with absurdly good PvT, and not looking bad in any (except the game against really on MP) and he went 1-1 with a number of those players as well. Further, Jaedong went 6-1 this month (I wouldn't count him winning his osl prelims group, there was no one worthy of competition in that group. Indeed, if he hadn't have advanced with a perfect record i would have been surprised). You can bring up Jaedong's 14-0 PL streak but then you should consider that Jaedong got 0-3'd by Flash in the same period of time. Further, Flash's MSL win is still very much relevant, it's been ~30days since that roflstomp, whereas (as mentioned) when Jaedong got dropped his OSL win was around 2 months old by then. Lastly, another question that should be considered when a decision is this fine is who is the more scary opponent for a player at the moment? Think about that for a bit...
It shouldn't matter if Flash is losing his games to Stork or NonY. If you're #1, you need to win to keep that spot. When you're the best, everyone is trying to snipe you, or cheese you, or slip sedatives in your pocari sweat. Tough.
What makes runs like Jaedong's last fall and Flash's this winter/spring so impressive is that they beat back all challenges for a really long time. That's what made them #1, and separated them from the second tier; EffOrt, fantasy, Stork. But if you can no longer muster a winning record against the best, you no longer deserve to be called the best of the best. The discussion about Flash being #1 should begin and end with his monthly record: 5-6 with no shady offside calls or disallowed goals. It would be unprecedented for Flash to hang on to #2 with that record, and it's a testament to his domination that we even consider him for that.
You ask for the scariest player at the moment if there's a clear answer. There isn't. Jaedong and fantasy are both playing better than Flash right now.
> great sucks, has sucks, and will continue to suck. It's a pity he's gone 9-2 against quality opposition this month, because we know he's on a losing team and that we'll have a hard time erasing his suckyness from the PR if he's not playing.
The fuck how does he suck if he goes 9-2 against ''quality opposition''???
And wtf is up with ''losing team''???
Khan is actually on a roll atm and its not inconciveable that they grab the 6th spot from CJ with a bit of luck.
I do say that he'll be on the PR this month and deservedly so. But I can't stand great. He plays like Luxury, except without the title or the match-fixing. More like RorO, actually. He goes on tears every other month or so, after which he goes on terrible terrible losing streaks, and couldn't buy a win from a lemonade stand. So yes I'm being unfair, but I dunno, great sucks.
This month's PR will be somewhat hard, I think. Some players have played few matches and dropped a number of them, others have returned to form or exhibited high level form and potential PR worthiness for the first time.
I'm listing here the raw facts for all players who I believe warrant consideration in the PR. There's no cherry-picking in the stats I chose. No looking for win streaks in one particular league or anything like that, no talk of whether ace games are the same or different. I believe such things do warrant consideration, but only after looking at the bear essentials.
Note: records only count standard league games. Past 2 months means all games played on or after May 1, 2010.
For those who read my last post, some of this is a bit redundant.
Terrans (listed in order of ELO appearance): Flash (5-6 this month, 23-12 past 2 months, OSL #2, MSL #1 seeded) Fantasy (9-2 this month, 13-5 past 2 months, alive in OSL and MSL) Sea (6-3 this month, 7-5 past 2, alive in OSL and MSL, winner of OSL offline prelim direct seed?) Baby (4-3 this month, 10-4 past 2, alive in OSL, fell out of MSL) Leta (8-5 this month, 12-7 past 2, alive in only OSL) ForGG (5-1 this month, 9-3 past 2, alive in OSL(?) and MSL) Midas (2-2 this month, 4-5 past 2, fell from both leagues) Hiya (5-3 this month, 8-10 past 2, alive in OSL and MSL) SkyHigh (5-3 this month, 8-5 past 2, alive in OSL and MSL)
Zergs: Jaedong (6-1 this month, 19-5 past 2, alive in OSL, MSL #2 seeded) Effort (5-5 this month, 15-7 past 2, OSL #1 seeded, alive in MSL) Roro (3-2 this month, 9-3 past 2, alive in only MSL) Great (9-2 this month, 12-11 past 2, fell from OSL, alive in MSL, ironically, runner-up in OSL offline prelim direct seed tournament to Sea -- yet lost to Sea in actual OSL Ro36... wtf? Tournament bracket fail) Hyuk (5-4 this month, 10-5 past 2, alive in OSL and MSL) Shine (1-3 this month, 6-4 past 2, alive in OSL only) s2 (5-2 this month, 9-2 past 2, alive in MSL only)
Protoss: Free (6-1 this month, 11-8 past 2, alive in OSL and MSL) Bisu (7-1 this month, 7-4 past 2, alive in OSL and MSL) Stats (6-4 this month, 10-5 past 2, alive in OSL and MSL) Kal (4-5 this month, 11-12 past 2, alive in OSL and MSL) Shuttle (3-4 this month, 7-6 past 2, alive in OSL and MSL) Snow (5-3 this month, 10-4 past 2, alive in OSL and MSL)
I included every player on the last PR just for the sake of discussion. I don't think anyone will argue that Flash and Jaedong deserve 1 and 2, though the order seems to be under much dispute. The raw number of games they've been playing is proof of skill. Their records confirm great strength.
In my opinion, these players are all PR worthy: Fantasy, Sea, Baby, ForGG, Great, Free, Bisu, Snow. That leaves 1 spot left, and a number of good contenders.
At least CBNC worthy: Leta, SkyHigh, Effort, s2, Stats.
I can definitely see 1 or 2 players I listed as PR worthy dropping for a player I listed as CBNC worthy.
In my opinion, these players should be removed from PR and should not be mentioned in CBNC either: Midas, Shine, Kal, Shuttle.
Regarding these players, I'm a little uncertain: -Hiya (record not so great, but pulled some notable wins, 2 month record includes falling to Free and a mini-slump right after. Hiya is a good player, but he always teeters around being barely worth mentioning on PR, never making a case for a high rank, but almost always making a case for CBNC) -Roro (last month I argued why I liked the choice of Shine over Roro. But Shine isn't delivering. Roro didn't have a great month either, but I'd not be adverse to a CBNC mention. He's developing a good reputation as a potential ace match player, rounding out the Terran-driven line-up WeMade has) -Hyuk (possibly worth mentioning, last month noted on CBNC for lifting the SKT-1 Zerg line-up. This month he looks short of s2)
Thoughts on the whole: -Great month for Terran. Bad month for Zerg. Question mark for Protoss (no stable S-class Protoss, but several rising up and comers). Is this a sign that Flash is finally being successful at rallying Terran back to the throne? -PL R5 results have been somewhat unusual this month and should probably influence ranking even though I haven't really taken them into account. I did take into account the strength of the opponents in deciding whether a player was PR worthy, CBNC worthy, or so on. -Hard to make good decisions with OSL and MSL both still in such early stages. Most top players are alive in both leagues. -Some big names I skipped over for the obvious: because I don't feel they are worth mentioning given recent results. I think I listed everybody that anyone is serious about considering for PR.
On June 29 2010 06:47 tree.hugger wrote: I do say that he'll be on the PR this month and deservedly so. But I can't stand great. He plays like Luxury, except without the title or the match-fixing. More like RorO, actually. He goes on tears every other month or so, after which he goes on terrible terrible losing streaks, and couldn't buy a win from a lemonade stand. So yes I'm being unfair, but I dunno, great sucks.
I would really like to see the power rank to come out after Flash and Jaedong play their MSL groups (July 1st) to settle who belongs #1 and #2. Since Flash is seeded in the leagues, it is difficult to determine if his proleague slump will impact how he prepares for his individual league matches. With proleague playoffs coming up we could see a very different Flash in the individual leagues. Flash was never one to shy away from difficult groups (from what I remember), but I got the impression he was not as confident as he would have been 3 months ago with his ability to get past Bisu/Sea/Skyhigh.
On June 29 2010 10:54 jalstar wrote: Mortality, you forgot to mention Stork. (5-2 this month, 7-6 last 2 months, alive in OSL only)
To be honest, I didn't forget him. I didn't think Stork had a PR worthy month -- I can name maybe 15 players or so who I feel with confidence performed better.
5-2, as you say, was his record this month, but what of it? His two losses were in his two most important games (MST), and his wins were over players who are "meh" at best right now.
Can you honestly say that Stork deserves a PR spot over the other gamers I mentioned?
TBH, it's hard to really make a case for anything other than a Jaedong/Flash/Effort top 3. Jaedong has kept his play up, while the other two have been very much hit and miss. It's a good policy not to drop past starleague winners just based on proleague results. Wait and see what happens to them in the MSL/OSL first.
Jaedong, while not having won a starleague this season, is still playing like he should have and probably deserves #1. I wouldn't be surprised if Plexa tries to make a statement toward the Flash anti-fans and makes Flash #1 though. The standards we hold progamers to are ridiculous sometimes, and people need to really calm down with this 'slump' talk.
Fantasy should move up a couple slots to 4 or 5, and I'm guessing he'll move up again next month before his usual crash and burn.
There's no excuse not to have free in there somewhere. Just because Woongjin sometimes forgets they have such a great player, it doesn't mean we should. =P
Kal should definitely drop due to results, though his overall play is still good enough for the top 10.
Sea should definitely be top 10, as he's looked really good and we can't just assume he's going to drop out of both leagues this next month, can we? Okay maybe, but he's still looking good.
Snow should probably stay (albeit below free), as he hasn't faded much as of right now.
Bisu's a touchy subject. Personally I'd give him CBNC right now, but I know all the Bisu fans are going to argue since he actually remembered how to play again the last few weeks.
On June 29 2010 10:54 jalstar wrote: Mortality, you forgot to mention Stork. (5-2 this month, 7-6 last 2 months, alive in OSL only)
To be honest, I didn't forget him. I didn't think Stork had a PR worthy month -- I can name maybe 15 players or so who I feel with confidence performed better.
5-2, as you say, was his record this month, but what of it? His two losses were in his two most important games (MST), and his wins were over players who are "meh" at best right now.
Can you honestly say that Stork deserves a PR spot over the other gamers I mentioned?
Absolutely. If you watch his games he's been playing fucking beastly.
For me it is also clear that JD and Flash should still be #1 and #2. There is no doubt that these two are on top of the SC: BW world. #1 is pretty close, JD had the better month and Flash is Flash. He didn't play really bad, just lost close games against prepared opponents.
I would give Bisu a high rank in this PR, too. His performance in all games was great. But putting Bisu out of nowhere over Flash would be over the edge.
On the PR immediately after fOrGG beat Jaedong 3-0 on imba maps, fOrGG was ranked above Jaedong. However, fOrGG slumped after that, and on the next PR Jaedong was first and fOrGG was 6th.
Now, fOrGG then was nowhere near as good as Flash is now, and Flash should definitely not be sixth. However, Flash shouldn't get a free ride simply for being Flash. Flash needs to play like 2010 Flash to be #1, and this month he's played like 2009 Flash, a good player who's inconsistent and can't manage to pull through and just win games when he needs to.
Jaedong has been playing incredibly in proleague, going 14-1 in his last 15 games with the one loss being an incredible hard-fought game to Yellow. He got to the MSL finals despite imba maps, and 3-0ed TvZ specialist Midas. It might feel wrong to put Flash at 2, but Jaedong has been playing like the top player in the world. Flash, simply, has not.
The rest of the ranking should be something like:
3-6: fantasy, Snow, Baby, and Effort in whatever order. fantasy played very well this month, Snow and Baby played decently but not badly enough to drop too far, Effort should drop out of the top 3 for his mini-slump but he's still the OSL champion.
7-10: 4 out of Bisu, Free, fOrGG, Stork, great, and Sea, with the other two getting CBNC. Bisu, Free, fOrGG, and Sea seem more likely since they're still in both leagues. Stork has been playing well but didn't make the MSL, and great has a good record with decent play but didn't make the OSL Ro16.
1) Jaedong On fire in PL and had no problems qualifying to RO 36 in OSL 2) Flash : Slumping badly in PL. Drops to #2 3) EffOrt : See Flash. 50% win rate not good enough 4) Fantasy : Improving against Zergs lately. Hopefully Starleague success 5) great : Best PL player right now! Needs to prove it over long haul 6) BeSt : Bisu slump? No problem! Best sneaks in, even though he's not in either Starleague 7) BaBy Just awesome 8) Stork Back in the top 10! 9) sKyHigh Playing well lately 10) s2 or Action Either can fit here.
Flash making consecutive double finals is taken too easily by some. Jaedong went 6-1 this month, it's not really anything special to take the place of Flash who just recently 3-0'ed him.
If jaedong played his acematches and went something like 10-0 this month and Flash slumping in something other than TvT then I'd agree with Jaedong taking his place but now it seems abit meh...
I'm 100% certain the PR will come out after Flash and Jaedong have played their MSL games on the 1st. So we will get a little bit of additional data to consider.
There is quite a few possible scenarios, no point in listing them all. Well, at least if Flash goes 2-0 I would feel much better about him being first. With a negative record it just feels wrong, and the he still plays well argument is pretty much pointless when you have lost 6 games. You just don't lose 6 games if your name is Flash and you are playing up to your potential.
In my opinion Baby should slide quite a few spots to 7 or 8. With all the talk about Flash Jaedong and Bisu I think he is being overlooked. He's gone 4 and 4 with decent wins over Flash, Stats, and S2, but thats about it. He blew it hardcore in the MSL group which were his most important games of the months besides maybe the ace match against KT. He is at best the fourth best terran right now (I dont think its even arguable that Flash, Fantasy, and Sea should be ranked higher) with Leta and Forgg closing in on him.
I think Free should be given a low (7-10) spot for making into both leagues (seed in MSL) and the quality victory over Flash in proleague combined with a 5-1 record this month despite not playing many games.
On June 30 2010 06:37 StylishVODs wrote: I don't know about this.
Flash making consecutive double finals is taken too easily by some. Jaedong went 6-1 this month, it's not really anything special to take the place of Flash who just recently 3-0'ed him.
If jaedong played his acematches and went something like 10-0 this month and Flash slumping in something other than TvT then I'd agree with Jaedong taking his place but now it seems abit meh...
if roles were reversed you'd never allow jaedong to be #1 with a negative win record
You guys are delusional if you think that Bisu deserves to be in the power rank by beating second grade opponents in which his only "impressive" win is against Roro who has decent ZvP . He got by far the weakest groups in both MSL and OSL and anything else , but advansing would have been a total disgrace .
In anyway there are players more deserving then him and i'll just name a few here : Leta , Sea , Stats , great , Free . There are probably others , but you can make a case for them .
Flash has lost a few games mainly TvT , but that doesn't mean he should be lowered or in the worst case at # 2 , but thats arguable even though Jaedong did well this month .
Well since its a monthly ranking and not seasonal the healthy choise is to put JD #1 and Flash #2. If Flash does really good next month he returns to #1. It's as simple as that.
To put it differently, if this ranking has a stable evaluation method then for the same reason Effort (not in the PR of the previous month going #2 playing good for 1 month only) threw Jaedong to #3 (without JD failing so hard as Flash this month), the same should happen between JD and Flash.
Read the last paragraph of Plexa's description for Effort and change the names.
Snow drops out of the OSL in the Ro36. BaBy didn't even make it into the MSL. We all know they're talented players, but they obviously still have a lot of work to do.
Snow drops out of the OSL in the Ro36. BaBy didn't even make it into the MSL. We all know they're talented players, but they obviously still have a lot of work to do.
On June 30 2010 03:18 jalstar wrote: On the PR immediately after fOrGG beat Jaedong 3-0 on imba maps, fOrGG was ranked above Jaedong. However, fOrGG slumped after that, and on the next PR Jaedong was first and fOrGG was 6th.
Now, fOrGG then was nowhere near as good as Flash is now, and Flash should definitely not be sixth. However, Flash shouldn't get a free ride simply for being Flash. Flash needs to play like 2010 Flash to be #1, and this month he's played like 2009 Flash, a good player who's inconsistent and can't manage to pull through and just win games when he needs to.
Jaedong has been playing incredibly in proleague, going 14-1 in his last 15 games with the one loss being an incredible hard-fought game to Yellow. He got to the MSL finals despite imba maps, and 3-0ed TvZ specialist Midas. It might feel wrong to put Flash at 2, but Jaedong has been playing like the top player in the world. Flash, simply, has not.
The rest of the ranking should be something like:
3-6: fantasy, Snow, Baby, and Effort in whatever order. fantasy played very well this month, Snow and Baby played decently but not badly enough to drop too far, Effort should drop out of the top 3 for his mini-slump but he's still the OSL champion.
7-10: 4 out of Bisu, Free, fOrGG, Stork, great, and Sea, with the other two getting CBNC. Bisu, Free, fOrGG, and Sea seem more likely since they're still in both leagues. Stork has been playing well but didn't make the MSL, and great has a good record with decent play but didn't make the OSL Ro16.
The Forgg arguement doesnt hold up, since he owned Jaedong, imba maps or not, noone couldve proved that JD wouldve won regardless. Remember that before that Forgg had just 3-0'ed flash as well. To put it short; fOrGG 6-0'ed the 2 best (when not looking at other T's than forgg) players of their respective races.
Snow drops out of the OSL in the Ro36. BaBy didn't even make it into the MSL. We all know they're talented players, but they obviously still have a lot of work to do.
Snow lost to a cheese, won with awesome play on dreamliner, then dropped 1 sick game. Really should be credited not Snow critisized.
Yeah, Really played that series very well, props to him. Anyway, seeing Snow getting his ass kicked in PvT was extremely satisfying. Man, how I detest PvT specialist.
edit: Crisium - I though general agreement is that you don't have to spoiler anything in PR...
On June 30 2010 07:59 Malinor wrote: I'm 100% certain the PR will come out after Flash and Jaedong have played their MSL games on the 1st. So we will get a little bit of additional data to consider. .
On June 30 2010 05:53 catabowl wrote: My Predicted (my ranking) July top 10
1) Jaedong On fire in PL and had no problems qualifying to RO 36 in OSL 2) Flash : Slumping badly in PL. Drops to #2 3) EffOrt : See Flash. 50% win rate not good enough 4) Fantasy : Improving against Zergs lately. Hopefully Starleague success 5) great : Best PL player right now! Needs to prove it over long haul 6) BeSt : Bisu slump? No problem! Best sneaks in, even though he's not in either Starleague 7) BaBy Just awesome 8) Stork Back in the top 10! 9) sKyHigh Playing well lately 10) s2 or Action Either can fit here.
Bisu slump lol? he is 12-3 this month. You have no clue
On June 30 2010 06:37 StylishVODs wrote: I don't know about this.
Flash making consecutive double finals is taken too easily by some. Jaedong went 6-1 this month, it's not really anything special to take the place of Flash who just recently 3-0'ed him.
If jaedong played his acematches and went something like 10-0 this month and Flash slumping in something other than TvT then I'd agree with Jaedong taking his place but now it seems abit meh...
if roles were reversed you'd never allow jaedong to be #1 with a negative win record
Wierd statement, and false. Ofcourse I would... I think Flash deserves the benefit of a doubt after his domination. This is the month where he needs it. Never before has he needed it and never has he gotten it. He lost a few TvT games and he's suddenly not the best player.. :/
On June 30 2010 06:37 StylishVODs wrote: I don't know about this.
Flash making consecutive double finals is taken too easily by some. Jaedong went 6-1 this month, it's not really anything special to take the place of Flash who just recently 3-0'ed him.
If jaedong played his acematches and went something like 10-0 this month and Flash slumping in something other than TvT then I'd agree with Jaedong taking his place but now it seems abit meh...
if roles were reversed you'd never allow jaedong to be #1 with a negative win record
Wierd statement, and false. Ofcourse I would... I think Flash deserves the benefit of a doubt after his domination. This is the month where he needs it. Never before has he needed it and never has he gotten it. He lost a few TvT games and he's suddenly not the best player.. :/
Yeah he lost a few TvT's but if you watch it from the beginning, his play has just gotten worse. Losing to Ruby was sort of a fluke, but then he got thoroughly out multi-tasked by Baby and lost in the late-late game (where Flash is said to be almost unbeatable) to Skyhigh, to having a build order advantage and getting completely outplayed by Really. Out of all the TvT's he has lost this month, Skyhigh is the only player who actually has a solid TvT record. You could see in his expressions that he has lost something.
Giving flash the benefit of the doubt is putting him at number #2 (pending today's results, of course). As of this month I think a case can be made that Flash is not even the best terran, as Fantasy has certainly shown he has gotten back to form, beating some very good players and qualifying for both starleagues.
setzer, you probably confuse word "solid" with something else, cause all Flash's opponent this month except Ruby had "solid" vT record (unlike JD opponents). And Skyhigh's TvT record isn't solid. It's outstanding and only slightly behind Flash's.
On June 30 2010 06:37 StylishVODs wrote: I don't know about this.
Flash making consecutive double finals is taken too easily by some. Jaedong went 6-1 this month, it's not really anything special to take the place of Flash who just recently 3-0'ed him.
If jaedong played his acematches and went something like 10-0 this month and Flash slumping in something other than TvT then I'd agree with Jaedong taking his place but now it seems abit meh...
if roles were reversed you'd never allow jaedong to be #1 with a negative win record
Wierd statement, and false. Ofcourse I would... I think Flash deserves the benefit of a doubt after his domination. This is the month where he needs it. Never before has he needed it and never has he gotten it. He lost a few TvT games and he's suddenly not the best player.. :/
Yeah he lost a few TvT's but if you watch it from the beginning, his play has just gotten worse. Losing to Ruby was sort of a fluke, but then he got thoroughly out multi-tasked by Baby and lost in the late-late game (where Flash is said to be almost unbeatable) to Skyhigh, to having a build order advantage and getting completely outplayed by Really. Out of all the TvT's he has lost this month, Skyhigh is the only player who actually has a solid TvT record. You could see in his expressions that he has lost something.
Giving flash the benefit of the doubt is putting him at number #2 (pending today's results, of course). As of this month I think a case can be made that Flash is not even the best terran, as Fantasy has certainly shown he has gotten back to form, beating some very good players and qualifying for both starleagues.
You had me up until here: "as of this month I think a case can be made that Flash is not even the best terran". This is just plain wrong. It's incorrect. Proleague has never determined who is the best player of any race. That is always left to the individual leagues, and Flash will remain firm in his place until another Terran can challenge him there. Unfortunately for Flash, he is so good that he is seeded into both Leagues. Thus he missed out on the opportunity to bash some newbies in the qualifiers, early rounds.
On July 01 2010 02:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Rofl, I'm okay with Flash at number 2 but you're a complete doofus if you think Fantasy is even close to Flash's level.
Well, if you take current results into consideration, Fantasy won more than Flash this month. Nethertheless, I think we should give Flash some credit before we put him lower on PR. This could be just a mini-slump, not a true slump. #2 for Flash is good IMO.
Yeah, putting Fantasy over Flash next month would be like putting Effort over Jaedong OH WAIT. Two wrongs don't make a right though, so Flash should obviously be over Fantasy anyway, and he will.
On July 01 2010 02:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Rofl, I'm okay with Flash at number 2 but you're a complete doofus if you think Fantasy is even close to Flash's level.
Yeah we'll see. I am not convinced Flash will magically return to his early 2010 form like some KT fans are expecting. His confidence is definitely shaken after many ace losses and he could have kept his group with Bisu, Skyhigh and Sea but wanted an easier one. I do not remember Flash being one who brings the weakest players into his group.
setzer, you probably confuse word "solid" with something else, cause all Flash's opponent this month except Ruby had "solid" vT record (unlike JD opponents). And Skyhigh's TvT record isn't solid. It's outstanding and only slightly behind Flash's.
You are right with Skyhigh, but I do not consider ~50% "solid," that is more like inconsistent and mediocre.
You had me up until here: "as of this month I think a case can be made that Flash is not even the best terran". This is just plain wrong. It's incorrect. Proleague has never determined who is the best player of any race. That is always left to the individual leagues, and Flash will remain firm in his place until another Terran can challenge him there. Unfortunately for Flash, he is so good that he is seeded into both Leagues. Thus he missed out on the opportunity to bash some newbies in the qualifiers, early rounds.
I did say "as of this month," and you cannot argue with the performance Fantasy has shown recently. His games against all three races have been very strong with good late game management to displaying some creative cheeses. His TvZ has clearly improved and his TvT is the best it has ever been. Putting Flash over Fantasy on the power rank is giving him the benefit of the doubt, but statistic wise, Fantasy has had a much stronger month.
On July 01 2010 03:13 setzer wrote: You are right with Skyhigh, but I do not consider ~50% "solid," that is more like inconsistent and mediocre.
Midas in most recent results beat Flash in Hana (that's one of 2 flash's loses there) and then beat MVP in SPL while MVP was on fire. Baby is 12-7 (63%) in 2010 with 4 loses coming from Flash and Skyhigh. Hiya is 14-7 Overall all terrans flash faced this month are in top 15 by TvT ELO (2080+ points). Judging current performance using all time win-rate isn't a good idea.
I wish I could make a poll that said "Who's the better Terran: Flash or Fantasy?" and somehow disbar KT fans from voting in it just to show you how lopsided the view is. Flash is better. Period. I don't care if Fantasy did alright in PL and 2-0'd, what, Brave and Grape? Hell Flash, despite his minislump, still has better gameplay than Fantasy.
No one in the world wants a hard starleague group. Hard groups are the easiest way to get out of a tournament because 1v1s are subject to big upsets. Also he brought Effort into his group, same way Jaedong did to Baby.
On July 01 2010 03:13 setzer wrote: You are right with Skyhigh, but I do not consider ~50% "solid," that is more like inconsistent and mediocre.
Overall all terrans flash faced this month are in top 15 by TvT ELO (2080+ points). Judging current performance using all time win-rate isn't a good idea.
On July 01 2010 03:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: I wish I could make a poll that said "Who's the better Terran: Flash or Fantasy?" and somehow disbar KT fans from voting in it just to show you how lopsided the view is. Flash is better.
On July 01 2010 03:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: I wish I could make a poll that said "Who's the better Terran: Flash or Fantasy?" and somehow disbar KT fans from voting in it just to show you how lopsided the view is. Flash is better. Period. I don't care if Fantasy did alright in PL and 2-0'd, what, Brave and Grape? Hell Flash, despite his minislump, still has better gameplay than Fantasy.
No one in the world wants a hard starleague group. Hard groups are the easiest way to get out of a tournament because 1v1s are subject to big upsets. Also he brought Effort into his group, same way Jaedong did to Baby.
Hey, remember when JWD put Zero higher than JD right after his OSL victory over Fantasy? Whether his logic was right or not (it was not, in my opinion), the same case can be made for Fantasy being put over Flash. Barring an upset I would still put Flash at #2 but the way Fantasy is playing, he is closer to Flash's level now then you give him credit for. Not exactly unexpected though since Fantasy has always been one of the most underrated players ...
On July 01 2010 03:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: I wish I could make a poll that said "Who's the better Terran: Flash or Fantasy?" and somehow disbar KT fans from voting in it just to show you how lopsided the view is. Flash is better. Period. I don't care if Fantasy did alright in PL and 2-0'd, what, Brave and Grape? Hell Flash, despite his minislump, still has better gameplay than Fantasy.
No one in the world wants a hard starleague group. Hard groups are the easiest way to get out of a tournament because 1v1s are subject to big upsets. Also he brought Effort into his group, same way Jaedong did to Baby.
Hey, remember when JWD put Zero higher than JD right after his OSL victory over Fantasy? Whether his logic was right or not (it was not, in my opinion), the same case can be made for Fantasy being put over Flash. Barring an upset I would still put Flash at #2 but the way Fantasy is playing, he is closer to Flash's level now then you give him credit for. Not exactly unexpected though since Fantasy has always been one of the most underrated players ...
Fantasy is not underrated. He is frequently called the #2 terran. He is overshadowed, and it's not without reason. I could go into a long diatribe about how Fantasy has shaky mechanics, as well as nerves compared to all of Flash's great attributes, but I'm sure you'd turn it into another strawman.
Don't get me started on JWD's ranks. An era best left forgotten.
I don't think Flash should/will lose #1 in July. If he continues underachieving, go ahead and drop him a few spots, but he deserves one month of benefit of the doubt.
On July 01 2010 03:13 setzer wrote: You are right with Skyhigh, but I do not consider ~50% "solid," that is more like inconsistent and mediocre.
Overall all terrans flash faced this month are in top 15 by TvT ELO (2080+ points). Judging current performance using all time win-rate isn't a good idea.
Ruby's 29% TvT is in top 15 now?
I've got lazy on this part. It gets tiring repeating "except Ruby" every time, you know ;P
I love Fantasy, but what's this shit I'm seeing? Flash just made both SL finals at the same time and Fantasy is being proclaimed better just for producing better results in the past 10 games?
TLnet is ridiculously fickle. One month ago Flash was being called God, placed above the bonjwas (lol?) and now he's not even the top Terran?
On June 30 2010 06:37 StylishVODs wrote: I don't know about this.
Flash making consecutive double finals is taken too easily by some. Jaedong went 6-1 this month, it's not really anything special to take the place of Flash who just recently 3-0'ed him.
If jaedong played his acematches and went something like 10-0 this month and Flash slumping in something other than TvT then I'd agree with Jaedong taking his place but now it seems abit meh...
if roles were reversed you'd never allow jaedong to be #1 with a negative win record
On July 01 2010 06:53 Mortality wrote: TLnet is ridiculously fickle. One month ago Flash was being called God, placed above the bonjwas (lol?) and now he's not even the top Terran?
Even as a bonjwa (hypothetical), losing 5 ZvZ is perfectly acceptable if you take in account the nature of the matchup. Losing 5 TvT is not.
I love Fantasy, but what's this shit I'm seeing? Flash just made both SL finals at the same time and Fantasy is being proclaimed better just for producing better results in the past 10 games?
TLnet is ridiculously fickle. One month ago Flash was being called God, placed above the bonjwas (lol?) and now he's not even the top Terran?
People say Jaedong should by higher based on his last 10 or 20 games...
I love Fantasy, but what's this shit I'm seeing? Flash just made both SL finals at the same time and Fantasy is being proclaimed better just for producing better results in the past 10 games?
TLnet is ridiculously fickle. One month ago Flash was being called God, placed above the bonjwas (lol?) and now he's not even the top Terran?
Above the bonjwas uhhh what? Which crazy Flash fanboy said that one?
And no one is arguing that he isn't the top terran at the moment. People are just pointing out his negative record for the month.
Also, he keeps making weird "wtf" faces when he loses, lol.
On July 01 2010 06:53 Mortality wrote: TLnet is ridiculously fickle. One month ago Flash was being called God, placed above the bonjwas (lol?) and now he's not even the top Terran?
Even as a bonjwa (hypothetical), losing 5 ZvZ is perfectly acceptable if you take in account the nature of the matchup. Losing 5 TvT is not.
You act like he lost 5 in a row vs scrubs. As it stands, he's 2-3 in his last 5, 5-5 in his last 10. His opponents weren't all TvT giants, but they weren't scrubs either. The weakest was Ruby, who's not a bad player.
Now, Math time.
Flash's TvT win percentage is 72% lifetime. Let's imagine for a second that this means Flash is slated to win 72% against any arbitrary opponent he faces. Assuming that winning/losing is an iid random variable defined in this manner, then there's an 11% chance that Flash will go 2-3 in a 5 game stretch, and an 8% chance of going 5-5 in a 10 game stretch.
In other words, statistically speaking, it's not unlikely.
Furthermore, let's do a quick comparison against a bonefied bonjwa. At the time NaDa gold grand slammed, he had a 74.5% win record against fellow Terrans, better than either Boxer or Oov could boast. NaDa's worst TvT loss streak at that time? 6 games. That's not 6 games out of 12, that's 6 in a row.
You're holding standards that are much too high. A few hiccups are okay even for a bonjwa.
I love Fantasy, but what's this shit I'm seeing? Flash just made both SL finals at the same time and Fantasy is being proclaimed better just for producing better results in the past 10 games?
TLnet is ridiculously fickle. One month ago Flash was being called God, placed above the bonjwas (lol?) and now he's not even the top Terran?
People say Jaedong should by higher based on his last 10 or 20 games...
When did I mention Jaedong? Let me reiterate verbatim what I said: "...and now he's not even the top Terran?"
So if I am understanding you correctly, you mean to tell me that Jaedong has switched races and is now a Terran player? I think a lot of Zerg fans will be disappointed to have lost their star.
I love Fantasy, but what's this shit I'm seeing? Flash just made both SL finals at the same time and Fantasy is being proclaimed better just for producing better results in the past 10 games?
TLnet is ridiculously fickle. One month ago Flash was being called God, placed above the bonjwas (lol?) and now he's not even the top Terran?
Above the bonjwas uhhh what? Which crazy Flash fanboy said that one?
And no one is arguing that he isn't the top terran at the moment. People are just pointing out his negative record for the month.
Also, he keeps making weird "wtf" faces when he loses, lol.
For posts regarding Flash being greatest of all time, see the comments in this thread made at the beginning of the month. First 10 pages or so.
For comments that Flash isn't the top Terran right now, you need only go back 2 pages, where TLnetter setzer said: "As of this month I think a case can be made that Flash is not even the best terran, as Fantasy has certainly shown he has gotten back to form, beating some very good players and qualifying for both starleagues."
On July 01 2010 06:53 Mortality wrote: TLnet is ridiculously fickle. One month ago Flash was being called God, placed above the bonjwas (lol?) and now he's not even the top Terran?
Even as a bonjwa (hypothetical), losing 5 ZvZ is perfectly acceptable if you take in account the nature of the matchup. Losing 5 TvT is not.
You act like he lost 5 in a row vs scrubs. As it stands, he's 2-3 in his last 5, 5-5 in his last 10. His opponents weren't all TvT giants, but they weren't scrubs either. The weakest was Ruby, who's not a bad player.
Now, Math time.
Flash's TvT win percentage is 72% lifetime. Let's imagine for a second that this means Flash is slated to win 72% against any arbitrary opponent he faces. Assuming that winning/losing is an iid random variable defined in this manner, then there's an 11% chance that Flash will go 2-3 in a 5 game stretch, and an 8% chance of going 5-5 in a 10 game stretch.
In other words, statistically speaking, it's not unlikely.
Furthermore, let's do a quick comparison against a bonefied bonjwa. At the time NaDa gold grand slammed, he had a 74.5% win record against fellow Terrans, better than either Boxer or Oov could boast. NaDa's worst TvT loss streak at that time? 6 games. That's not 6 games out of 12, that's 6 in a row.
You're holding standards that are much too high. A few hiccups are okay even for a bonjwa.
I love Fantasy, but what's this shit I'm seeing? Flash just made both SL finals at the same time and Fantasy is being proclaimed better just for producing better results in the past 10 games?
TLnet is ridiculously fickle. One month ago Flash was being called God, placed above the bonjwas (lol?) and now he's not even the top Terran?
People say Jaedong should by higher based on his last 10 or 20 games...
When did I mention Jaedong? Let me reiterate verbatim what I said: "...and now he's not even the top Terran?"
So if I am understanding you correctly, you mean to tell me that Jaedong has switched races and is now a Terran player? I think a lot of Zerg fans will be disappointed to have lost their star.
I love Fantasy, but what's this shit I'm seeing? Flash just made both SL finals at the same time and Fantasy is being proclaimed better just for producing better results in the past 10 games?
TLnet is ridiculously fickle. One month ago Flash was being called God, placed above the bonjwas (lol?) and now he's not even the top Terran?
Above the bonjwas uhhh what? Which crazy Flash fanboy said that one?
And no one is arguing that he isn't the top terran at the moment. People are just pointing out his negative record for the month.
Also, he keeps making weird "wtf" faces when he loses, lol.
For posts regarding Flash being greatest of all time, see the comments in this thread made at the beginning of the month. First 10 pages or so.
For comments that Flash isn't the top Terran right now, you need only go back 2 pages, where TLnetter setzer said: "As of this month I think a case can be made that Flash is not even the best terran, as Fantasy has certainly shown he has gotten back to form, beating some very good players and qualifying for both starleagues."
Perhaps the wording was a bit awkward, I was merely saying, judging the records and performances of Flash and Fantasy, an argument can be made that Fantasy should be placed higher than Flash on this month's power rank. That has nothing to do with who is actually the best terran, or who I think is the best terran, it is just a reflection on the performance for this month. For any other progamer going 5-6 and losing five ace matches in the course of one month would likely take them off the list or, at worse, drop them to the very bottom. Some people are even removing Effort entirely from next month's power rank because he, like Flash, is not playing up to his level. That is clearly a testament to how good Flash has been over the last 6 months. But alas, if the power rank was about the top 10 progamers, and not the top 10 performers, Flash and Jaedong would never leave #1 and #2. That is why I do not think Flash is anywhere near as deserving of #1 as some people want to say he is.
Mortality, you claim that it is ridiculous to put fantasy above flash simply based on his last ten games. However, Fantasy has had the best month of anyone bar Jaedong. People are saying that based on June's results Jaedong should rank higher because of his great month and Flash's mediocre month.
So why can't on the basis of the last 10 games (this months results) Fantasy be put higher, I mean Flash can't even win half of his games and has gone 0-5 in ace games. Jaedong can be put higher but Fantasy can't? Jaedong went 6-1 this month Fantasy went 10-2. I'm not even saying I agree with this viewpoint, but both Fantasy and Jaedong played really well and Flash did so mediocre that I wouldn't object to both being put higher than Flash because of the lack of starleague results so far.
On July 01 2010 06:21 Ideas wrote: I think my PR would probably look like this:
jaedong flash fantasy sea free bisu leta great stats forgg
wow bisu too high . winning an ace and going 4-0 against scrubs is NOT that high eh.. fantasy might be too high imo.. 3rd seems.. extreme
i dunno if forgg should be there O___O
7-2 on TV and qualified for his OSL group undefeated. that plus 6 of his games were in leagues and he went 2-0 and 4-0 in those, something a lot of players have problems doing.
fantasy too high? maybe, but who else played better this month?
Sub 50% for the month should not give you #1 on the PR period. When people slump, they slump hard. Flash is showing signs of slumping hard. Sometimes even being outplayed at his strongest matchup in-spite of having a very light schedule and no pressure. A sub 50% under these conditions does not deserve a #1 power rank.
On July 01 2010 10:16 Nick_54 wrote: Mortality, you claim that it is ridiculous to put fantasy above flash simply based on his last ten games. However, Fantasy has had the best month of anyone bar Jaedong. People are saying that based on June's results Jaedong should rank higher because of his great month and Flash's mediocre month.
So why can't on the basis of the last 10 games (this months results) Fantasy be put higher, I mean Flash can't even win half of his games and has gone 0-5 in ace games. Jaedong can be put higher but Fantasy can't? Jaedong went 6-1 this month Fantasy went 10-2. I'm not even saying I agree with this viewpoint, but both Fantasy and Jaedong played really well and Flash did so mediocre that I wouldn't object to both being put higher than Flash because of the lack of starleague results so far.
the problem is, fantasy's opponents haven't been all that strong.
W effort: yay! (good at ZvT) W action light: ok good (action is good at ZvT; light is not so good at TvT though...) W roro yellow: ok W grape x2, brave x2, puma: lol?
L snow: acceptable (he is really really good at PvT) L soulkey: kind of acceptable (up-and-coming)
I agree flash's record isn't so pretty, and maybe he should be #2 (L hiya, baby, skyhigh, really are probably 4 of the top 8 TvT along with flash himself, fantasy, leta, and sea. L free - free is pretty good at PvT. L ruby is x.x, though ruby sometimes pulls great games.) W backho (ha), midas (pretty good TvT, right below that top tier), kal, really.
having a losing record isn't so great, but he's played much better opponents overall than fantasy has. and dual finals last TWO seasons? the only person who flash should ever be placed under, unless this slump continues at least a whole starleague season or two, is jaedong.
On July 01 2010 10:16 Nick_54 wrote: Mortality, you claim that it is ridiculous to put fantasy above flash simply based on his last ten games. However, Fantasy has had the best month of anyone bar Jaedong. People are saying that based on June's results Jaedong should rank higher because of his great month and Flash's mediocre month.
Because Power Rank IS NOT about who had the best score in their last 10 games or any such shit. Power Rank isn't just a monthly ranking; it's about who is the strongest right now. It prioritizes recent results because it tries to be up to the minute, whereas KeSPA and ELO rankings rely heavily on past data, hence why the current month counts most.
If you just want who produced the best results this month, go open up TLPD and after 20 minutes of digging you'll have a pretty good idea.
Power Rank is another ranking of "who is strongest." But it serves a different purpose than KeSPA ranking or ELO ranking. KeSPA ranking essentially tells you who has produced the best tournament record in recent history. ELO ranking tells you who's had the hottest streak in recent memory. Power Rank factors in subjective criteria.
Consider the following 4 players: Light, Shine, Horang2, and Movie in a tournament situation, single elimination, bo5's.
If Light plays Shine and Horang2 plays Movie, then the expected result would be Light > Shine, Horang2 > Movie. Then you have Light vs Horang2 in the "finals." But what if it was Light vs Movie, Shine vs Horang2? Now we would expect Movie > Light and Shine > Horang2, for a Movie vs Shine finals.
So just because a player gets better results doesn't mean that he's better.
SC metagame changes constantly. Even with things having stabilized so heavily over the past few years (compared to the relatively chaotic "metagame" of even just 4 or 5 years ago), a player can one day be stomping on opponents left and right and the very next day get crushed by a no name. Power Rank deals with this; KeSPA and ELO rankings don't.
For example, you'll notice that Kwanro is very highly ranked both in ELO and by KeSPA right now, but nobody's talking about putting him on the PR. Same with Calm and same with Zero.
So why can't on the basis of the last 10 games (this months results) Fantasy be put higher, I mean Flash can't even win half of his games and has gone 0-5 in ace games. Jaedong can be put higher but Fantasy can't? Jaedong went 6-1 this month Fantasy went 10-2. I'm not even saying I agree with this viewpoint, but both Fantasy and Jaedong played really well and Flash did so mediocre that I wouldn't object to both being put higher than Flash because of the lack of starleague results so far.
It's true that this month has been eye-opening: Flash's TvT isn't the unstoppable force that it once was. But if he played a bo5 against anyone, would you expect him to lose? Maybe against SkyHigh. What about TvZ or TvP? Do you think that Fantasy is as strong as Flash in any match-up?
So why can Jaedong be put higher? If your life was literally on the line and you had to pick a progamer to play a bo5 for you and whether he wins or loses determines whether you live or die, who would you trust most to do it? Last month Flash seemed to be the biggest bully on the block, but whereas Flash has had shaky TvT results recently, Jaedong has been destroying everyone who isn't Flash.
On July 01 2010 15:17 Nick_54 wrote: Just out of curiosity I want to know who everyone thinks is playing better this month Jaedong or Fantasy and by what margin.
jaedong by a margin the size of reach's erect shlong
and baby needs to be on, not sure why cats are forgetting him
On July 01 2010 16:23 InFdude wrote: Ok Morality you go on and put your life on the line in a Bo5 say Flash vs SkyHigh .So if SkyHigh wins he is number 1 ? Ofc no . I don't see how any protoss can take more that 1 game off Jaedong in a Bo5 and he has been doing great in ZvZ . His ZvT isn't all that great but there are just a few terrans that can be a problem .Flash on the other hand has some serious problem with TvT and I can name 2-3 tosses who may beat him in a Bo5 ATM.
Flash has won his last FOUR (Free, Pure, Movie, Best) BO5's against Protoss. In those FOUR, he dropped ONE game.
So please name these 2-3 tosses who can beat Flash in a BO5.
well, Flash continues to loose, this time with mechanical monster Effort, so no shame. Whatever, new PR is going to be the most controvertial for ages.
Yeah I do not envy Plexa here. Flash isn't looking quite #1, but I would understand him there, Jaedong has been playing really well but just lost to Yellow and his team isn't getting into PL, and Effort has been playing bad with the exception of a few games (like one he just played against Flash..)
Flash looks human right now. The most human he's been since October 2009. Plexa has to decide how much that should weigh against him. I don't mind JD getting the #1 spot. Not sure about the other contenders being ranked above Flash though.
On July 01 2010 20:24 okum wrote: Well, JD just steamrolled his MSL group while Flash looked flaky in all three games. It's hard to deny that the dong is far more dangerous right now.
The case can even be made for Effort > Flash, although that's more far-fetched.
It is far-fetched since Effort has been just as inconsistent as Flash over this month. Speaking of Flash he looked very vulnerable. Hard to imagine him getting #1 with that performance. JvP and JvZ looking as unstoppable as ever.
Jaedong dished out the rape today. Flash.... not so much, although he made it out of his group. Effort still owned him.
Can't really see Flash at #1 still when Jaedong is looking so much more dominant. His only loss was Yellow getting 9 pool speed vs 12 hatch, which he even survived to take it into late game epic hive tech ZvZ.
On July 01 2010 19:54 Elroi wrote: The way Flash played today he should lose his #2 spot to Fanta imo. Well, we'll see how JD fares.
Fantasy's results in last 2 month:
Wins over Puma, Brave (x2), Grape (x2), Effort, Calm, Hiya Loses to SoulKey, Snow, Effort, Jaedong, Flash
Other 6 wins over Light, Roro, Yellow, Action (x2), Flash worth special mention as their average duration is 8:20 with Yellow game being the longest - a whooping 12 minutes.
In last OSL he's been kicked out by Pure 0:2 and In Hana MSL he's lost to Calm 1:2 with only win being 12 minutes wraith shenanigans.
Such an exceptional performance! Clearly the best Terran out there~
1st: Jaedong because he deserves it this month 2nd: No one because everyone else fails 3rd: Flash because its Flash (for the last time) 4th: Fantasy or Effort(with today's results) ...
Wins over Puma, Brave (x2), Grape (x2), Effort, Calm, Hiya Loses to SoulKey, Snow, Effort, Jaedong, Flash
Other 6 wins over Light, Roro, Yellow, Action (x2), Flash worth special mention as their average duration is 8:20 with Yellow game being the longest - a whooping 12 minutes.
Still, he lost less games in the last 2 months than Flash THIS SINGLE month.
On July 01 2010 20:54 InRaged wrote:
In last OSL he's been kicked out by Pure 0:2 and In Hana MSL he's lost to Calm 1:2 with only win being 12 minutes wraith shenanigans.
Such an exceptional performance! Clearly the best Terran out there
First- not 0:2 against Pure, but 1:2, he defeated him in stage group, but lost in tie breaker. Second, it doesnt change the fact that lately he wins a lot and Flash loses a lot. Anyway I think Flash still should stay at #2 . One more month with such an average performance, and he's getting down, no excuses.
Yellow had a BO advantage and a lead from start. He brought the game where he could only could win. A game with no micro or macro (considering the 2 bases most of the game). Just mass a huge army and flip a coin at the end deciding who wins. With the same BO advantage JD beat Roro today so easily.
hitthat, what's this? I talk about games' and opponents' quality, you bring loss ratio. You just can't fathom, that it doesn't matter how much losses one has when vast majority of wins come from either random scrubs or cheeses, don't you. And good thing you brought up that win against Pure in group stage. It reminds that this has been his only win at group stages. And that doesn't even matter since Flash 3:0 Pure later on anyway.
On July 01 2010 22:14 InRaged wrote: hitthat, what's this? I talk about games' and opponents' quality, you bring loss ratio. You just can't fathom, that it doesn't matter how much losses one has when vast majority of wins come from either random scrubs or cheeses, don't you.
Yeah, with todays results there should be no doubt that JD is #1. Flash is 7-7 since the JD match and that doesnt cut it anymore. JD is 8-1 since then and his play was as great and stable as before the Flash match.
I can only repeat that Flash definitely deserves one month to proof himself after all he has achieved over the last few months. Furthermore he didn't play badly at all. None of his losses in June were terrible or thrown away games etc. One indicator for that fact is that all his losses were recommended games in the live report threads, and I doubt that's because he has so many anti-fans that like to see him lose.
All of Flash's losses in June were basically still excellent games so give him the benefit of the doubt here instead of crying "slump!". If he keeps underachieving he will drop a few spots in the PR inevitably, I don't know why people are so keen on dethroning him as quick as possible. I remember quite a few occasions of players keeping their #1 spot although others had performed better in proleague that month.
On July 01 2010 19:33 Holgerius wrote: I understand both sides and wouldn't be upset no matter what Plexa does.
I disagree. One side will be upset no matter which way it ends up D:
Let's just say, maybe it'd be the time to decide a close situation in Jaedong's favor, something the past ehh... 3 PR-ers never have done.
Yeah, and honestly, after watching the MSL games in addition to every game they've played in June, it's really not that hard a decision to make, though I can see the dilemma.
On July 01 2010 22:57 Mooncat wrote: I can only repeat that Flash definitely deserves one month to proof himself after all he has achieved over the last few months. Furthermore he didn't play badly at all. None of his losses in June were terrible or thrown away games etc. One indicator for that fact is that all his losses were recommended games in the live report threads, and I doubt that's because he has so many anti-fans that like to see him lose.
All of Flash's losses in June were basically still excellent games so give him the benefit of the doubt here instead of crying "slump!". If he keeps underachieving he will drop a few spots in the PR inevitably, I don't know why people are so keen on dethroning him as quick as possible. I remember quite a few occasions of players keeping their #1 spot although others had performed better in proleague that month.
Because of all the times when JD was dropped because he "only" went like 9-5 for a month and was put below Zero?
On July 01 2010 22:57 Mooncat wrote: I can only repeat that Flash definitely deserves one month to proof himself after all he has achieved over the last few months. Furthermore he didn't play badly at all. None of his losses in June were terrible or thrown away games etc. One indicator for that fact is that all his losses were recommended games in the live report threads, and I doubt that's because he has so many anti-fans that like to see him lose.
All of Flash's losses in June were basically still excellent games so give him the benefit of the doubt here instead of crying "slump!". If he keeps underachieving he will drop a few spots in the PR inevitably, I don't know why people are so keen on dethroning him as quick as possible. I remember quite a few occasions of players keeping their #1 spot although others had performed better in proleague that month.
Wrong. The one against Really, he got so badly dominated, he had no chance. And he played pretty poorly too. The one against Free wasn't that good either. He got dominated there too.
On July 01 2010 23:12 J1.au wrote: It's almost like Jaedong fanboys have deliberately forgotten the MSL finals. Which coincidentally was the last BoX Flash has played.
And if his current performance keeps up, will be the last BoX he'd have won in a while.
On July 01 2010 23:12 J1.au wrote: It's almost like Jaedong fanboys have deliberately forgotten the MSL finals. Which coincidentally was the last BoX Flash has played.
Maps used (4): Fighting Spirit, Match Point, Odd-Eye 2, Triathlon
is one reason, the other is... dunno, looking at the recent games.
J1.au, it's actually funny if you think about it - if finals happened just some 3 days later no sane JD fan could say that JD deserves to be higher in June ;P
Oh one more thing. Even if Jaedong was beating Flash all the time and Flash was beating everyone else, but Jaedong kept getting owned by Fantasy for example, I dont think you could say JD was the best o_O
On July 01 2010 23:29 InRaged wrote: J1.au, it's actually funny if you think about it - if finals happened just some 3 days later no sane JD fan could say that JD deserves to be higher in June ;P
wwjdd, he wasn't dominated by Free wtf
Nah. not really. His play just gets worse and worse as the month goes on. If he barely has 50% for the month, he doesn't deserve #1 PR. JD got demoted for less after winning a star league.
On July 01 2010 22:57 Mooncat wrote: I can only repeat that Flash definitely deserves one month to proof himself after all he has achieved over the last few months. Furthermore he didn't play badly at all. None of his losses in June were terrible or thrown away games etc. One indicator for that fact is that all his losses were recommended games in the live report threads, and I doubt that's because he has so many anti-fans that like to see him lose.
All of Flash's losses in June were basically still excellent games so give him the benefit of the doubt here instead of crying "slump!". If he keeps underachieving he will drop a few spots in the PR inevitably, I don't know why people are so keen on dethroning him as quick as possible. I remember quite a few occasions of players keeping their #1 spot although others had performed better in proleague that month.
Because of all the times when JD was dropped because he "only" went like 9-5 for a month and was put below Zero?
Different PR writers have different opinions... I completely disagreed with that months ranking - for the record
On July 01 2010 22:57 Mooncat wrote: All of Flash's losses in June were basically still excellent games so give him the benefit of the doubt here instead of crying "slump!".
Flash's benefit of the doubt is that he's #2, above players who technically have better records than him this month (e.g., Fantasy), because we believe (okay, we know) he's a stronger player.
And at this point most of the people using the word "slump" are Flash fans complaining about the few people that have used the term to describe his month.
On July 01 2010 23:40 Plexa wrote: Different PR writers have different opinions... I completely disagreed with that months ranking - for the record
I thought you(Plexa) decided all the PR's. Whos involved in the decision making?
One writer is involved in the decision making afaik. There was different writers in the past though. The ones where JD was dropping from #1 after shaky months were written by JWD~
On July 01 2010 16:23 InFdude wrote: Ok Morality you go on and put your life on the line in a Bo5 say Flash vs SkyHigh .So if SkyHigh wins he is number 1 ? Ofc no . I don't see how any protoss can take more that 1 game off Jaedong in a Bo5 and he has been doing great in ZvZ . His ZvT isn't all that great but there are just a few terrans that can be a problem .Flash on the other hand has some serious problem with TvT and I can name 2-3 tosses who may beat him in a Bo5 ATM.
How many ways can you say "completely missed the point"?
SkyHigh is a TvT monster. Right now, he's probably better than anyone in that match-up. But is SkyHigh stronger overall than Flash? I highly doubt that. So obviously if you're playing an opponent of unknown race with your life on the line you'd rather send Flash than SkyHigh. Because it just so happens that Flash is one of the strongest players across the board right now.
And yet again someone brings Jaedong into this when I have nothing bad to say against Jaedong. Indeed, Jaedong is probably my #1 pick for this month, all said and done. So why do people keep acting like I'm hating on him?
Okay, so assuming Jaedong is #1, who should be #2? The problem with giving #2 to anyone who isn't Flash is that all the top contenders for that position have either had a shaky month OR they aren't well proven. Is Fantasy playing like a finalist or is he just looking strong because most of his opponents are easy? Can we put Effort above Flash when his current form is equally erratic? Is Sea playing like he's finally going to win a Starleague, or is he going to crap out on us yet again, always good, never quite good enough? Is Bisu back to top form, or is he just winning because his opponents have been easy? And what about Great, who might have made a deep run into OSL if not for bracket fail (as you may recall, because of the cheating scandal, a spot or two opened up in the OSL, Sea won the direct seed tournament and Great was the runner-up... and then they were forced to play each other in the Round of 36 days later even though Great had just gotten through defeating Jaedong and Jangbi!)?
Power Rank attempts to answer all these questions to say "who is the strongest overall." No matter what player you pick, right now there's nobody who you can confidently say would win over literally anyone (hence why we've stopped talking about a bonjwa, although I still think Flash is walking the bonjwa road if he gets his act together again), and even if there were, there's nobody who loses only to the #1 guy and there's nobody who loses only to the #1 and #2 guys, etc.
What Power Rank does is subjectively analyze these criteria that raw statistics do not and cannot take into account and then it recombines that subjective analysis with the recent results to try to better grasp the bigger picture.
And that's what people have lost sight of. Every single month these days you have people coming out of the woodwork to promote Player Y who just had a X game winstreak and maybe Player Y looked good in it, but that alone is not enough.
Plexa hasn't written all the Power Rankings. There have been different writers since it's existence. The person who writes the power ranking obviously decides where and how to rank the players.
On June 30 2010 06:37 StylishVODs wrote: I don't know about this.
Flash making consecutive double finals is taken too easily by some. Jaedong went 6-1 this month, it's not really anything special to take the place of Flash who just recently 3-0'ed him.
If jaedong played his acematches and went something like 10-0 this month and Flash slumping in something other than TvT then I'd agree with Jaedong taking his place but now it seems abit meh...
if roles were reversed you'd never allow jaedong to be #1 with a negative win record
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i44.tinypic.com/3012e60.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TlsTd.gif)
