|
On June 08 2010 03:52 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 03:42 tree.hugger wrote:On June 07 2010 21:36 SuperArc wrote:On June 07 2010 21:24 Fenrax wrote:On June 07 2010 21:00 SuperArc wrote:
OH MY GOD!!
Flash has lost another ace match, and again in his most dominant matchup!!!
I am really starting to think that Flash has a burnout. That's not true. He was 14CCed again and this time couldn't catch up. It gets really tough against lesser players once they start gambling with risky builds because that's the only way they can beat you. Flash played a great ace match, but it wasn't enough. That might be true, but four months ago Flash would have still crushed Ruby. Terrans like I said improved their TvT a lot, like zergs did when JD was raping everyone left and right. At first I thought you were trolling, but apparently you're ready to herald the downfall of Flash, which is just silly. This is the state of BW today, last summer and fall, Jaedong looked unstoppable, but only for a season or two. This winter and spring, it's been Flash's turn, but reasonably expecting him to continue putting up the results he put up is a little insane. This isn't Flash getting any worse, or Jaedong getting any worse, and it's not necessarily anyone else getting that much better. BW is a battle of mind games just as much as it's a battle of apm and mechanics. In BW today, eventually you're going to get figured out to a degree. *** I told the Flash-bonjwa crowd to calm down, and the same is true with the ridiculous "Flash-slumping?!?" idea that's come out recently. TL can have frightening mood-swings sometimes. How am I ready to herald the downfall of Flash by saying that terrans improved their TvTs which is true?
It's unclear that Terrans have actually improved their TvT's. They probably have improved but it's not nearly as obvious as it was with ZvZ. Terran hasn't dominated hard enough for people to be spending that much additional time on TvT in my opinion.
What Terrans have improved at is taking chances against Flash and having them pay off.
- Fantasy had a very well-designed cheese, complemented by running into Flash's proxy Barracks resulting in an autowin, nothing to say about that.
- Hiya actually had a great opening, then Flash pulled the game all the way back to where he had an advantage, then Hiya had one last-ditch attack which worked out because Flash skipped Dropships and went straight to BCs. In fairness to Hiya, Flash skipped Dropships because Hiya got such a big early lead that Flash elected to spend all his gas on units. It was a really smart move by Hiya but given that he was outplayed after getting a huge early advantage (to the point where it looked like he might be able to overrun Flash right there and then) it was a less impressive win than people are making it out to be (though the winning blow was very, very impressive, as was the handling of the Wraith transition in general). Hiya even gave one of those "ugh I might have lost this game =(" sighs that was caught on camera around the 70% mark of the game.
- Ruby went untouched 14cc against Fac CC and then Flash played fairly badly the rest of the game. He seemed to lack practice on those positions on Grand Line, as he had no plan for securing a third gas after losing out on the battle for the gas inbetween the mains. He also fought some questionable (borderline stubborn "I will win this because I'm Flash") battles when trying to secure the center, even though Ruby had a clear build order advantage and thus had a clear army advantage as well. He could have won those battles with one more lucky mine or something but I bet if it wasn't Ruby he would have conceded the line more readily and done a better job securing the bottom right main and splitting the map (he ended up not being able to take EITHER gas at the bottom right main).
Even in the last 30 days alone, Flash still went 3-1 against Ruby with all 3 wins being bonafide total victories. Watch them again - they were absolute start to finish domination. I wouldn't say Ruby got that much better at TvT (1-9 last 10 with the only win being the last one against Flash haha) but he did play one very good game.
|
Bisu, 10/01/08 to 06/07/09 - 93 wins, 30 losses, 2 titles
Flash, 10/01/09 to 06/07/10 - 103 wins, 25 losses, 2 titles, 2 silvers
Kind of a stretch to say one is bonjwa and one isn't, or even that one stretch is significantly better than the other.
|
On June 08 2010 18:02 jalstar wrote:
Bisu, 10/01/08 to 06/07/09 - 93 wins, 30 losses, 2 titles
Flash, 10/01/09 to 06/07/10 - 103 wins, 25 losses, 2 titles, 2 silvers
Kind of a stretch to say one is bonjwa and one isn't, or even that one stretch is significantly better than the other.
Yeah when you compare 8 months.
But if you compare their best year ratio, flash is 80% while Bisu is 70%. There's a big difference and Bisu is fallen, flash is not.
Bisu never made dual starleague final back to back in such a dominating fashion.
Had bisu continued playing like he did I'm sure he'd be a serious bonjwacontender.
Also it's very misleading saying 2silver+gd vs 2gold.
Rather say 4 finals vs 2 finals. Pretty big difference.
|
That's sort of my point though, Flash has to not have a Bisu-like slump to be considered for bonjwa.
All the bonjwas were dominant for at least 3 seasons, Flash/Bisu/Jaedong have been dominant for 2 at a time at most.
|
Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
But I agree, the only reason not to call Flash bonjwa is because his dominance haven't been so much over a year now..
|
On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote:
Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
Shorter? I'm comparing the exact same amount of time.
|
On June 08 2010 19:12 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote:
Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time... Shorter? I'm comparing the exact same amount of time.
Yes, you compare 8months of dominance to make it equal while one players dominance stretches over a longer period of time. Hence unfair.
It's like comparing Efforts 25-3 streak with Flash's 25-3 streak and say both dominated the same... except not so exaggerated.
|
On June 08 2010 19:58 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 19:12 jalstar wrote:On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote:
Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time... Shorter? I'm comparing the exact same amount of time. Yes, you compare 8months of dominance to make it equal while one players dominance stretches over a longer period of time. Hence unfair. It's like comparing Efforts 25-3 streak with Flash's 25-3 streak and say both dominated the same... except not so exaggerated.
Are you saying Flash's dominance was longer? If I add games before 10/1/09 his win rate goes down, not up.
|
On June 08 2010 20:00 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 19:58 StylishVODs wrote:On June 08 2010 19:12 jalstar wrote:On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote:
Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time... Shorter? I'm comparing the exact same amount of time. Yes, you compare 8months of dominance to make it equal while one players dominance stretches over a longer period of time. Hence unfair. It's like comparing Efforts 25-3 streak with Flash's 25-3 streak and say both dominated the same... except not so exaggerated. Are you saying Flash's dominance was longer? If I add games before 10/1/09 his win rate goes down, not up.
He's talking about the caliber of players Flash raped vs that of the players Effort did.
|
The ratio of games won is not a linear indicator of strength -- the ratio of losses is more accurate (taking things to their extreme, a player who wins 99% of his games is about 10x better than a player who wins 90% of his games, not 10% better). Over an extended period, there's definitely a difference between losing 1 game out of 4 and losing 1 game out of 5. Or 1 out of 6, if you make a more favorable cutoff for Flash, taking the same number of games as Bisu starting from Oct 1.
Not that Bisu's period of domination wasn't impressive. It was definitely on par with past bonjwas, and not far behind Flash.
|
On June 08 2010 20:00 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 19:58 StylishVODs wrote:On June 08 2010 19:12 jalstar wrote:On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote:
Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time... Shorter? I'm comparing the exact same amount of time. Yes, you compare 8months of dominance to make it equal while one players dominance stretches over a longer period of time. Hence unfair. It's like comparing Efforts 25-3 streak with Flash's 25-3 streak and say both dominated the same... except not so exaggerated. Are you saying Flash's dominance was longer? If I add games before 10/1/09 his win rate goes down, not up.
rewind ten months back and Flash's win rate goes from 80,5% to 74,4%
Bisu's goes from 74,8 to 65,8
Oh, you can actually rewind all the way to October '08 and see that Flash holds same win rate as Bisu held in his 8 months of dominance for a whooping year longer
|
Flash, Effort, Snow all with 2 losses already. :o
|
On June 08 2010 22:30 SuperArc wrote:
Flash, Effort, Snow all with 2 losses already. :o
that's what i was saying!
|
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On June 08 2010 22:30 SuperArc wrote:
Flash, Effort, Snow all with 2 losses already. :o
Enter:  fantasy? (A very convincing 2-0)
But actually, the month is young. No reason to go running around like a protoss with it's head cut off.
|
Snow is a little overrated in this PR, Flash and JD have shown to us that they can overcome few looses without permanent slump more than a few times, BW scene we know today is not so far away from the scene we had few years ago, just players are different from each other and it was always like that (see simple sample of Plexa is sooo good july -> effort, oov -> flash, and I think that after 10 more years of progaming only a troll will compare Flash's TERRAN like boxer, nada, oov streak to "Leader of a disrespected race, victim of an imbalanced matchup" PROTOSS Bisu's). The point is:
In Korean Progaming it is much more important what one player consists of (mental strength (in bo5 and months), mechanics, timings, aggressiveness, buildings) than what year did he play, if You use word generation it can only apply to changing game style (go MacroModeMagicarp!).
So written above being still secondary: Don't get so excited and yell that flash slumped after he lost 2 TvT's, same as JD and even more ridiculously Snow, cheers.
|
OMG, FLASH SLUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote:
Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
But I agree, the only reason not to call Flash bonjwa is because his dominance haven't been so much over a year now..
If Flash is bonjwa why is Jaedong not? 7/8 finals is an incredible feat and his accomplishments rank up there next to the great Nada. The requirements for bonjwa are so arbitrary that it seems to me different requirements are set for different programers. Bisu's revolution is probably the greatest of protoss achievements but he never gets mentioned in the similar breath of oov or savior and his accomplishments are just as illustrious as Flash's.
|
On June 09 2010 05:28 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote:
Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
But I agree, the only reason not to call Flash bonjwa is because his dominance haven't been so much over a year now.. If Flash is bonjwa why is Jaedong not? 7/8 finals is an incredible feat and his accomplishments rank up there next to the great Nada. The requirements for bonjwa are so arbitrary that it seems to me different requirements are set for different programers. Bisu's revolution is probably the greatest of protoss achievements but he never gets mentioned in the similar breath of oov or savior and his accomplishments are just as illustrious as Flash's.
Hey if I had to chose Jaedong would already have been crowned bonjwa boxer nada oov savior jaedong flash , i don't know about bisu though..
|
On June 09 2010 05:28 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 18:54 StylishVODs wrote:
Yeah well it's still misleading comparing their stats like that when Bisu's dominance was shorter and his final appearances half as many during that time...
But I agree, the only reason not to call Flash bonjwa is because his dominance haven't been so much over a year now.. If Flash is bonjwa why is Jaedong not? 7/8 finals is an incredible feat and his accomplishments rank up there next to the great Nada. The requirements for bonjwa are so arbitrary that it seems to me different requirements are set for different programers. Bisu's revolution is probably the greatest of protoss achievements but he never gets mentioned in the similar breath of oov or savior and his accomplishments are just as illustrious as Flash's.
Preface: I am not a fanboy of either player and in fact both have shattered mine and Bisu's heart on multiple occasions.
He really should be in my opinion. In 3 seasons he made 3 finals and won 3 starleagues combined with a WCG win. However, people say he isn't as dominant as Savior/Nada/Oov were so he can't be bonjwa. But he is a bonjwa of mind games and great play bo5 series, this is why if he is something like 5 for 7 in starleague finals. People on this site I believe have made up their own subjective standards of dominance and following the starleague victory pattern.
Maybe I myself am not being objective about this and he may not be a bonjwa, but he will go down as two of the best players of all time at least to me and so will Flash. It is too hard to compare eras in my opinion and although him and Flash may not dominate everyone, but they definitely dominate certain aspects of the game. I only caught the tail end of Savior's bonjwa era, but there have been many games where I would just say damn only Flash or only Jaedong just like I said only Savior when he defeated Iris on neo araknoid. This is just my two cents, but I think Flash and Jaedong are judged too harshly based on the modern standards of professional starcraft.
|
Personally, I would put Flash, Jaedong, AND Bisu ahead of Savior, and this isn't just because of the recent news—I've always thought Savior got too much praise for what he did.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
