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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On June 10 2010 04:25 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 22:56 Plexa wrote:On June 09 2010 21:46 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On June 09 2010 07:40 SimonB wrote:On June 09 2010 07:38 SuperArc wrote:On June 09 2010 07:34 SimonB wrote:
Personally, I would put Flash, Jaedong, AND Bisu ahead of Savior, and this isn't just because of the recent news—I've always thought Savior got too much praise for what he did. Too much praise? Crushing terrans in a time where T>>Z and the maps were even more T>Z? How can you not praise that enough? Both map and race advantage have been way overemphasized. Bisu's PvZ revolution was far more impressive IMO. That has almost always been the most unfair match up (and unfortunately has returned as such lately), and Bisu completely changed it. sAviOr's management game and 3 hatch style was way more revolutionary than Bisu's Forge FE style. I don't consider Bisu a revolutionary player. All he's done throughout his career is emulate smarter protoss players and win on the behest of his superior mechanics. The mere fact you credit Bisu with forge-fe makes me cringe. he didn't ... he understands the Bisu copied better strategies to win.. but i do disagree. Savior was deemed "unbeatable" in his time. NO protoss could TOUCH him. Terrans were the only ones who stood a chance and the cream of the crop at that time (hwasin, casy, midas) all crumbled before him.
In Savior's prime, people used to say "it is obvious to me that Savior is on a whole different level from everybody else." In fact that was a truism. There was, at least in terms of perception, a massive gap between Savior and #2 and it lasted a long time, at least until Iris took him to five games in the OSL semifinal. This was never the case for Flash and Jaedong, much less Bisu.
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Savior was never the far best zvz'er though. Not even the best.
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Hyuk is playing really well. I can definitely see him on the next PR if he keeps it up!
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On June 11 2010 01:01 StylishVODs wrote:
Savior was never the far best zvz'er though. Not even the best.
I don't agree. He initially had a ZvZ weakness which he overcame when he beat Chojja 3-1 in that MSL semifinal (and went on to beat some zerg in the finals). After that, he was the favorite against anyone in ZvZ, just as he had been for a long time in the other matchups.
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On June 11 2010 16:36 J1.au wrote:
Hyuk is playing really well. I can definitely see him on the next PR if he keeps it up!
yeah, his 7-1 prelims showing was pretty impressive and he's been doing solid in PL
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 12 2010 01:21 HnR)hT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 01:01 StylishVODs wrote:
Savior was never the far best zvz'er though. Not even the best. I don't agree. He initially had a ZvZ weakness which he overcame when he beat Chojja 3-1 in that MSL semifinal (and went on to beat some zerg in the finals). After that, he was the favorite against anyone in ZvZ, just as he had been for a long time in the other matchups.
Yup. After Chojja won his MSL he started to play worse, then Savior became the undisputed best ZvZ. Chojja was the only Zerg who came close to Savior in the first part of his reign, in the latter part no one came close to him.
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Maybe I wasn't paying too much attention to his zvz. However I always felt his ZvZ was his weakest mu.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Despite being his weakest MU, there was no Zerg which came close to him  (other than Chojja)
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Wow according to an interview with Artosis/Hwani this OSL could be the last BW OSL ever.
So meaning this is Flash's last chance to get a Golden Mouse.
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On June 08 2010 18:28 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 18:02 jalstar wrote:
Bisu, 10/01/08 to 06/07/09 - 93 wins, 30 losses, 2 titles
Flash, 10/01/09 to 06/07/10 - 103 wins, 25 losses, 2 titles, 2 silvers
Kind of a stretch to say one is bonjwa and one isn't, or even that one stretch is significantly better than the other. Yeah when you compare 8 months. But if you compare their best year ratio, flash is 80% while Bisu is 70%. There's a big difference and Bisu is fallen, flash is not. Bisu never made dual starleague final back to back in such a dominating fashion. Had bisu continued playing like he did I'm sure he'd be a serious bonjwacontender. Also it's very misleading saying 2silver+gd vs 2gold. Rather say 4 finals vs 2 finals. Pretty big difference.
This comment really made me lol.
2 Gold and 2 Silvers is more misleading than 4 finals vs 2 finals
wtf? It is the same only that 2 gold and 2 silvers is more detailed information than 4 vs 2 finals.
You still need to get to the finals in order to get a silver.... obviously..
(not that I disagree or agree with the rest of the discussion, I dont care if people call flash bonjwa or not)
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Can  great never be on another PR ever again?
Yeah he wins, and sometimes he wins twice, but equally often he loses and occasionally loses twice. Once in a while, it's reasonable to assume he'll do decently in a tournament, but he'll never reach the upper echelon. If great has a good month, can we just ignore it? We know he'll follow it up with a terrible month. great just isn't good, and he isn't bad. It's time we made peace with that.
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On June 12 2010 22:45 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 18:28 StylishVODs wrote:On June 08 2010 18:02 jalstar wrote:
Bisu, 10/01/08 to 06/07/09 - 93 wins, 30 losses, 2 titles
Flash, 10/01/09 to 06/07/10 - 103 wins, 25 losses, 2 titles, 2 silvers
Kind of a stretch to say one is bonjwa and one isn't, or even that one stretch is significantly better than the other. Yeah when you compare 8 months. But if you compare their best year ratio, flash is 80% while Bisu is 70%. There's a big difference and Bisu is fallen, flash is not. Bisu never made dual starleague final back to back in such a dominating fashion. Had bisu continued playing like he did I'm sure he'd be a serious bonjwacontender. Also it's very misleading saying 2silver+gd vs 2gold. Rather say 4 finals vs 2 finals. Pretty big difference. This comment really made me lol. 2 Gold and 2 Silvers is more misleading than 4 finals vs 2 finals wtf? It is the same only that 2 gold and 2 silvers is more detailed information than 4 vs 2 finals. You still need to get to the finals in order to get a silver.... obviously.. (not that I disagree or agree with the rest of the discussion, I dont care if people call flash bonjwa or not)
Yeah it should be obvious but the way he put it justified him saying "Kind of a stretch to say one is bonjwa and one isn't" when really it isn't because 4 finals >>> 2 finals in the same amount of time.
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On June 12 2010 18:05 SuperArc wrote:
Wow according to an interview with Artosis/Hwani this OSL could be the last BW OSL ever.
So meaning this is Flash's last chance to get a Golden Mouse.
artosis also thinks really is the second-best terran
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On June 13 2010 04:29 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 18:05 SuperArc wrote:
Wow according to an interview with Artosis/Hwani this OSL could be the last BW OSL ever.
So meaning this is Flash's last chance to get a Golden Mouse. artosis also thinks really is the second-best terran
Yep, exactly.
Artosis isn't a journalist. He goes out of his way to use superlatives and generate hype. He does some good stuff for the scene but you can always tell he's not-so-subtly pushing his own agenda at all times.
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lol Snow is a failure, just lucky.
WHOO fantasy is finally back into the PR! fantasy FIGHTING!
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On June 13 2010 04:55 TriniMasta[wD] wrote:
lol Snow is a failure, just lucky.
WHOO fantasy is finally back into the PR! fantasy FIGHTING!
I guess the way he owned Fantasy in the OSL prelims was just lucky too then.
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na snows rank is well deserved, hes been taking games off really high quality players
i feel like this month could be classic's coming out party aswell, he hasnt played vs top notch players like snow has but his style is super solid, really impressive
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Snow need to start showing he can deliver against a non-T opponent as well though. =/
I'd love to see Stats make an appearance soon. He's shown solid play in all MU's.
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On June 13 2010 06:36 Holgerius wrote:
Snow need to start showing he can deliver against a non-T opponent as well though. =/
I'd love to see Stats make an appearance soon. He's shown solid play in all MU's.
Since 2010 Snow has been solid against other races too. If you count offline games too hes just a beast, but even if not 50% PvP and 40% PvZ isnt that bad.
Its just his 84% vT win rate outshines everything.
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I wouldn't worry too much about Snow's win rate. With only 10 games played in PvZ, 40% or 60% doesn't really say a lot. As for his PvP, again there are too few games, and most of the losses are from 2009 and/or against dragons anyway. I'm sure he can show some results in both matchups over time.
(That said, even in PvZ, a 40% *sustained* win rate *is* bad. Except Snow, every top ELO protoss down to Movie has a rate of at least 50%.)
Stats is looking really good, not least the fact that he's 12-6 against zerg minus Jaedong. And not just looking at the numbers, his play in some of his games has been really impressive (he has also done terrible things in some of the games he lost... hopefully that's just lack of experience).
Speaking of the monster, it's less than one week short of a year now since Jaedong lost his last ZvP that wasn't against Stork.
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EPT
