EPTMan I kinda would've died laughing if Effort said in his interview, Kwanro helped him alot ZvT
[SPOILERS] Thoughts on Flash vs Effort - Page 4
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kohkomo
Canada135 Posts
Man I kinda would've died laughing if Effort said in his interview, Kwanro helped him alot ZvT | ||
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YoonHo
Canada1043 Posts
On May 23 2010 10:50 Chef wrote: T'was a vulture, my friend. Not a legendary scan by Flash, just routine scouting that Effort should have blocked. Maybe if he blocked it Flash would have gotten suspicious and scanned, but this way he didn't even have to. Effort had an interesting build in game 3, but he won because Flash lost his marines to speedlings  That would have been huge clever build or no, and I don't think Effort really lured Flash into making that mistake... Flash saw the speedlings while defending didn't he? He just moved out anyway when he got his meds.I mean you can argue that Effort didn't intentionally lure Flash out, IMO, I think he did. Flash didn't move out just because he got his medics. He moved out because he killed a significant amount of lings (4-5, I forget) with no loss. He probably thought that Effort didn't have enough lings to defend his expo at 9 o'clock, not to mention he might have thought Effort took his nat. | ||
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Cadical
United States469 Posts
On May 23 2010 10:50 Chef wrote: T'was a vulture, my friend. Not a legendary scan by Flash, just routine scouting that Effort should have blocked. Maybe if he blocked it Flash would have gotten suspicious and scanned, but this way he didn't even have to. Effort had an interesting build in game 3, but he won because Flash lost his marines to speedlings That would have been huge clever build or no, and I don't think Effort really lured Flash into making that mistake... Flash saw the speedlings while defending didn't he? He just moved out anyway when he got his meds.There was a scan initially right before effort was about to load hydras. Then a single vulture came down to check again. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32268 Posts
On May 23 2010 10:50 Chef wrote: T'was a vulture, my friend. Not a legendary scan by Flash, just routine scouting that Effort should have blocked. Maybe if he blocked it Flash would have gotten suspicious and scanned, but this way he didn't even have to. Effort had an interesting build in game 3, but he won because Flash lost his marines to speedlings That would have been huge clever build or no, and I don't think Effort really lured Flash into making that mistake... Flash saw the speedlings while defending didn't he? He just moved out anyway when he got his meds.lol You can't be serious. That's like saying Jaedong only won vs Stork on katrina cause Stork didn't order his cannons to aim for the scourge instead of the mutas and he let his corsair get scourged. The reason why Flash moved out was because EffOrt lured him out with his hatch expo position and with the info he gave him on the previous games. On game 1: EffOrt blocked most of Flash vultures that game early on, that's the only one that escaped, but it made all the difference. edit: If you ever played ZvT, you would know that it's not easy to chase and block vultures with speed, even more if they have mines to lure you into traps. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On May 23 2010 11:59 IntoTheWow wrote: lol You can't be serious. That's like saying Jaedong only won vs Stork on katrina cause Stork didn't order his cannons to aim for the scourge instead of the mutas and he let his corsair get scourged. The reason why Flash moved out was because EffOrt lured him out with his hatch expo position and with the info he gave him on the previous games. On game 1: EffOrt blocked most of Flash vultures that game early on, that's the only one that escaped, but it made all the difference. edit: If you ever played ZvT, you would know that it's not easy to chase and block vultures with speed, even more if they have mines to lure you into traps. Uhm Flash lost because he moved out three seconds too early, without his medics. It doesn't matter if Effort lured him out, Flash would have been fine with marine/medic and would've hit nine before mutas. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32268 Posts
Your point? | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32268 Posts
He's going to make mistakes, and even more in a finals when he's got pressure on him. EffOrt made Flash made mistakes. Flash made EffOrt make mistakes, like on game 2 where EffOrt lost a bunch of scourge carelessly because he had his attention drawn by Flash by raids. He doesn't make that kind of mistakes usually, but he did then. You don't see EffOrt supports going "oh well effort made mistakes, if he just scourged that dropship and all those vessels he would have been able to hold all his expos". | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
The reason why Flash moved out was because EffOrt lured him out with his hatch expo position and with the info he gave him on the previous games. Point = this is wrong. You are saying Effort "lured" him when it was Flash just making a stupid mistake. Effort's build or strategy didn't win him the game, which is what you are saying? I am just saying that Effort didn't have some genius build that resulted in his win. Flash screwed up, for whatever reason. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32268 Posts
On game 3 EffOrt does something similar but doesn't grab the nat. Flash does not know this as his scv leaves the main and goes through effOrt's 3rd, he sees drones spawning there. As soon as the SCV is gone, EffOrt stops making drones and goes lings. So flash has info from the previous game, sees a "hidden" third and only 6 lings or so at his front, most of which die. He sees a game winning move, where EffOrt can't defend his third and his nat with sunkens at the same time and he moves out. Him moving with or without medics makes no difference as EffOrt has a bunch of lings to surround him and mutas hatching. He needed firebats to stop those lings (by that time EffOrt would have had mutas). Flash took a risk based on information, information that EffOrt gave him. How is not EffOrt's strategy what made Flash move out. I mean I bet if Flash got his mech army annihilated on game 1 when he moved out against hydras, everyone would be saying "omg Flash stop going mech" or "Flash you did a stupid mistake by moving out". But since it worked, everyone is praising him for his wonderful timming. lol. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On May 23 2010 12:37 IntoTheWow wrote: Ok, EffOrt on game 2 goes and grabs 3 bases, first taking a third and grabs a huge econ lead. On game 3 EffOrt does something similar but doesn't grab the nat. Flash does not know this as his scv leaves the main and goes through effOrt's 3rd, he sees drones spawning there. As soon as the SCV is gone, EffOrt stops making drones and goes lings. So flash has info from the previous game, sees a "hidden" third and only 6 lings or so at his front, most of which die. He sees a game winning move, where EffOrt can't defend his third and his nat with sunkens at the same time and he moves out. Him moving with or without medics makes no difference as EffOrt has a bunch of lings to surround him and mutas hatching. He needed firebats to stop those lings (by that time EffOrt would have had mutas). Flash took a risk based on information, information that EffOrt gave him. How is not EffOrt's strategy what made Flash move out. I mean I bet if Flash got his mech army annihilated on game 1 when he moved out against hydras, everyone would be saying "omg Flash stop going mech" or "Flash you did a stupid mistake by moving out". But since it worked, everyone is praising him for his wonderful timming. lol. Lol no. Flash saw that Effort didn't take his natural way past the regular timing. He knew Effort wasn't on 3 hatch, he's not retarded. All he needed to do was wait for firebats and move out (hell, if he had medics he might have come out on top. 8 marines/2 medics vs 8 lings or so) There would have been enough time to get to nine before mutas popped. Watch the VOD. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32268 Posts
Flash left EffOrt's nat earlier than the time EffOrt would have layed his 3rd hatch. Flash even leaves his SCV in the nat a second, waiting for the drone to come to expand, but he's chased off by some lings and then sees the hidding 2nd hatch. What Flash sees: 7 lings (1 of the initial 8 died killing the scv making the cc). 4 of which die. What there really is: 11 zerglings vs 8 marines. It's true that medics are in the back, but Flash thought there were 3 lings, not ELEVEN. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32268 Posts
Maybe with the medics in the group he could have lowered his loses a little, but not by much. Also it's not like Flash can move out with his first Firebats if he feels theres mass lings out, because EffOrt could just hide his lings and backstab. edit: by the time Flash has his 2 firebats and 2 more rines out, EffOrt mutas are already out. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
Hmm well it depends on if he had stim or not. If he has stim and medics are around marines, who knows what wouuld have happened. Mutas are morphing when firebats are at natural, it seems like, so it would have gotten to nine on time i think. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32268 Posts
Also EffOrt hatch would have been laid later. It would have been laid before if EffOrt went 3 hatch before lair, but not if he went hatch lair hatch. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
I thought we were talking about 3 hatch build. Hatch Lair Hatch isnt a "3 hatch build" and Flash would have known Effort was teching fast lair with small economy. | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
I'm pretty sure Flash saw enough to know that EffOrt was going for a two hatch, as opposed to a three hatch build. But with a normal two hatch, a third hatchery is thrown down while the lair is morphing (I'm correct, right, that is the timing?). Instead, obviously, EffOrt never built that third hatch and instead built more zerglings. EffOrt loses two zerglings trying to snipe an scv, and two more moments later trying to pull a standard EffOrt-trick, slipping in a zergling to scout. EffOrt then has eleven zerglings outside of Flash's base, with two making at the near hatchery. Flash only knew that EffOrt had three zerglings, and likely presumed that EffOrt had spent extra minerals on his hatchery. In that position, moving out with only marines is completely safe, any marine micro will kill off the zerglings with no losses. Fantasy does this all the time to great effect. Flash likely felt like should EffOrt have switched to building more lings after his hatch, then he would have insurance in the form of his medics. He clearly did not anticipate EffOrt having such a ling force and in such a perfect position. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
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John.Rapture
United States4 Posts
In the last game, Flash just melted in my opinion. That build seemed incredibly stupid considering the short rush distance and the fact that Effort is a zerg player. With proper micro, Effort raced around the two bases and crushed Flash's economy. Flash displayed a gaping hole in his play. I mean his game was described as "transcendental," which seems absurd and awesome at the same time. And Effort came back and won. Not only that, but he was smiling before the last game, while Flash was sweating bullets. Amazing. Simply incredible. Though the technicalities escape me, I still just want to relate how awesome that series was. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
All the game except maybe #2 were horrible. I hope JD vs Flash will be better. | ||
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