It seemed to suddenly all fall into place for Effort.
Game 3: I don't know if this was mentioned in the live report thread, but just before Flash lost his first lot of marines, Effort lost about 5 lings in failed attempts to harass scvs. I'm quite sure he lost those lings deliberately. He clearly knew that he couldn't do any damage with so many marines around and flash's level of micro. He sacrificed those 5 lings to give Flash the confidence to move out without medics straight away. Flash didn't think Effort would make that many lings.
Game 4: Effort sent his first overlord straight at the center, and guess what. Furthermore Flash didn't block his ramp at all after he killed the first lot of lings, and let a ling get in and scout the starport, which sealed it.
Game 5: This was half a build order counter. 14cc (it was actually a 12cc if you watched the supplies closely, but 12cc/13cc are all called 14cc for some reason) is fine against a usual 12 hatch 11 pool 10 gas build, but Effort did a gas before pool build. This let him get lair AND ling speed as soon as the pool finished. His ling speed was so fast that it was almost done when the first lings arrived at Flash's base. Flash blocked the choke nicely, but there were actually 2 entrances, including the path around the back of the minerals. Flash didn't block it all (a second blocking depot would've helped a lot), and lost.
On May 22 2010 22:25 Wonders wrote: It seemed to suddenly all fall into place for Effort.
Game 3: I don't know if this was mentioned in the live report thread, but just before Flash lost his first lot of marines, Effort lost about 5 lings in failed attempts to harass scvs. I'm quite sure he lost those lings deliberately. He clearly knew that he couldn't do any damage with so many marines around and flash's level of micro. He sacrificed those 5 lings to give Flash the confidence to move out without medics straight away. Flash didn't think Effort would make that many lings.
Effort also hid the majority of his lings by the bridge while only showing 3 which was really sick too.
On May 22 2010 22:25 Wonders wrote: It seemed to suddenly all fall into place for Effort.
Game 4: Effort sent his first overlord straight at the center, and guess what. Furthermore Flash didn't block his ramp at all after he killed the first lot of lings, and let a ling get in and scout the starport, which sealed it.
oh did he actually scout the starport? i thought he hadn't ... also he scouted the dropships too, and had already moved his hydras back expecting it
On May 22 2010 22:25 Wonders wrote: It seemed to suddenly all fall into place for Effort.
Game 4: Effort sent his first overlord straight at the center, and guess what. Furthermore Flash didn't block his ramp at all after he killed the first lot of lings, and let a ling get in and scout the starport, which sealed it.
oh did he actually scout the starport? i thought he hadn't ... also he scouted the dropships too, and had already moved his hydras back expecting it
hihi, in the replay after the game it showed that he barely seen the starport ^^
On May 22 2010 22:25 Wonders wrote: It seemed to suddenly all fall into place for Effort.
Game 4: Effort sent his first overlord straight at the center, and guess what. Furthermore Flash didn't block his ramp at all after he killed the first lot of lings, and let a ling get in and scout the starport, which sealed it.
oh did he actually scout the starport? i thought he hadn't ... also he scouted the dropships too, and had already moved his hydras back expecting it
Yeah, in first person view after he game they showed him scouting it.
It was all planned out very well with that hatchery very close to Flash's base getting out those muta's into combat just that extra bit faster. He baited with the hatchery he won with the hatchery. ZERG STYLE BABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBEARYEAHHHHHHH
Before game 4 started they showed a recap of game 3. Once Effort had scouted the proxy rax and gotten some lings, he attacked Flash's ramp and got a drone inside Flash's Base. While the marines were dealing with the lings, Effort got a good scout on the fast factory. Later he spotted the Starport with the ling yadayadayada. Well deserved OSL title. Coming back from 0-2 vs. Flash is sick beyond words.
I thought Game 1 was the best game. Effort hit right as 1-1 finished but the idea and his quick 3 base build were neat. The queen to mass muta and such...
Games 3 4 5 were great lol. Game 3 I don't think the deliberate loss is really it; Flash had medics right behind, the 1-2 second difference in move-out wasn't decided by efforts ling loss imo. Chance? no, Effort needed those lings to buy time in case Flash did move out anyways and happened to see a bad formation and baped Flash for it. Baped. Well played. Game 4 was poorly played on Flash's half imo. His original hold with 3 marines and scvs were really sloppy leaving himself very few marines after he had lifted the rax and left himself prone. Also the ling got to see the lack of everything in Flash's base cept add-on+ a missing fact or star so I think effort pieced together the puzzle pretty quick. From there Flash had to really desperately try to hurt him and he came up with double drop. Nice starsense from Effort, I wonder if that's a common gameplan but I dunno. But yeah, double drop, too little too late. Game 5. Starcraft. Zerglings. Classic.
On May 22 2010 23:20 SuperJongMan wrote: Games 3 4 5 were great lol. Game 3 I don't think the deliberate loss is really it; Flash had medics right behind, the 1-2 second difference in move-out wasn't decided by efforts ling loss imo. Chance? no, Effort needed those lings to buy time in case Flash did move out anyways and happened to see a bad formation and baped Flash for it. Baped. Well played.
I don't think Flash would've moved out *at all* if Effort hadn't lost those zerglings. Every good player knows that moving out, even if just to force sunkens, is how you capitalize on an opponent's mistake of losing a few lings. Maybe I remember the circumstances incorrectly, but I'll just have to wait for the vods to see.
It seemed more like FlaSh choked at the thought of that golden mouse there, and EffOrt surprisingly didn't succumb to the mental pressure that was applied by flash after manner CCing and then straight up raping him.
On May 22 2010 23:20 SuperJongMan wrote: Games 3 4 5 were great lol. Game 3 I don't think the deliberate loss is really it; Flash had medics right behind, the 1-2 second difference in move-out wasn't decided by efforts ling loss imo. Chance? no, Effort needed those lings to buy time in case Flash did move out anyways and happened to see a bad formation and baped Flash for it. Baped. Well played.
I don't think Flash would've moved out *at all* if Effort hadn't lost those zerglings. Every good player knows that moving out, even if just to force sunkens, is how you capitalize on an opponent's mistake of losing a few lings. Maybe I remember the circumstances incorrectly, but I'll just have to wait for the vods to see.
And he moved out with marines in a single line, which gave the lings a huge opportunity. Had they been at a better position it wouldve been more even trade (well not sure with going just memory), probably effort didnt have it planned to attack them right there even if he conciously lured flash to make the move.
Yea i think Effort did lose those lings in game 3 deliberately planing to punish Flash after he moves out. There is no way a player like Effort or JD to lose lings like that so carelessly,
Effort has 450 APM now so he was able to micro perfectly and win before Flash's macro kicked in for three straight games.
How does Movie ever beat him when he only has half the APM? I know that there was some sort of interview that said Movie beat Effort in practice fairly often.
On May 23 2010 01:29 KinosJourney2 wrote: Im so pissed off that Flash lost that, im a Effort hater from now on -_-
I can't really tell if this was sarcasm or not because you made CJ face, but honestly, I've never understood this kind of logic. If your favourite player loses to some other player, why you start to hate the player he just lost to?
On May 23 2010 01:27 jalstar wrote: Effort has 450 APM now so he was able to micro perfectly and win before Flash's macro kicked in for three straight games.
How does Movie ever beat him when he only has half the APM? I know that there was some sort of interview that said Movie beat Effort in practice fairly often.
Uhh..because having higher APM doesn't mean you will win. It never has and never will, it doesn't even necessarily mean you have better mechanics. (See: D+ Koreans with 400 APM)
Might as well ask how Stork and Fantasy ever beat anyone..
On May 22 2010 23:20 SuperJongMan wrote: Games 3 4 5 were great lol. Game 3 I don't think the deliberate loss is really it; Flash had medics right behind, the 1-2 second difference in move-out wasn't decided by efforts ling loss imo. Chance? no, Effort needed those lings to buy time in case Flash did move out anyways and happened to see a bad formation and baped Flash for it. Baped. Well played.
I don't think Flash would've moved out *at all* if Effort hadn't lost those zerglings. Every good player knows that moving out, even if just to force sunkens, is how you capitalize on an opponent's mistake of losing a few lings. Maybe I remember the circumstances incorrectly, but I'll just have to wait for the vods to see.
It looked like Flash threw the games 3/4, seriously... I was thinking maybe golden mouse on 3-0 is just way too easy, not exciting enough for him, lose 2 games for more pressure and more excitement ^^ Smelled like Savior was at this match for a while, seriously...
but no, really i think flash just got cocky and started slipping...lose game 3, lost his momentum. No longer undefeated, can't win golden mouse all 3-0 anymore...i think that got in his head... so game 4 he tries to cheese, effort had a super nice flank/surround move on the marines...really good scouting by effort saved himself in game 3/4.
Effort then capitalized on Flash's play style, i think, for game 5...he knows flash will revert back to his standard long game macro playstyle, after losing game 3 (seriously looked like an intentional loss, but only this game ^^) and trying cheese rush in game 4...so of course flash will go back to standard early CC long game playstyle...and the classic zergling rush was just right, especially on match point. The player on the top of that map has a slight disadvantage due to the ramp orientations on the expo, IMO, as well, and Flash lost focus, too busy looking at the hot ass BoothGirl in Effort's room or something...fast expo (12 CC is SO RISKY on match point vs zerg!!!)
Disappointing finals I think, but well played by effort in capitalizing on Flash's missteps. Congrats......
On May 23 2010 01:39 fearus wrote: Any1 felt that Effort could have won Game 2, when flash was pressuring his 3rd and he had mutas all over Flashs rax.
He panicked and decided to bring his mutas back which wasn't really needed, he could have kept his Mutas running rampant in Flash's base.
Yes, definitely was thinking that at the time!!! Totally agree, it was a panic move, but that's his own mistake that cost him game 2... I really thought he was going to basetrade, but instead flies mutas all the way back and just waste time..
by the time he got back to his 3rd, the marines were all dead from sunkens anyway. Mutas could have just sat doing nothing and effort would have been in good shape.
Every time I want a player to win, he loses. If you ever want to bet on StarCraft, and you're not a progamer, just ask me who I like and vote against that player.
The first player I started to watch was sAviOr. At the time I wasn't really sure if I liked him, but I just watched games he was involved in, because they were always epic. Finally, I'm in love with him and he goes and loses 3:0 to BiSu. Bullshit.
Next I start following Type-B, just for shits and giggles because I wrote a story about him and thought it would be funny. He wasn't winning before I wrote about him, but suddenly he starts doing kinda well and I start to think 'holy shit, this kid might go the distance.' Then he loses to Yarnc. Bullshit. Okay, Yarnc is good at zvz, so not really, but still.
Then last OSL I wasn't really in love with Flash. I like watching his games, the same way I liked watching Savior's games. I'd followed him since his debut, but this time around I really wanted Movie to fighting his way to a victory because I think he's a really creative player. Kid gets slaughtered. Bullshit.
Now Flash is winning and I'm like, okay, Legend Killer vs Ultimate Weapon. I want Legend Killer to win but... Not like this fuck. Bullshit.
Savior and Type-B get caught rigging games. Seriously? Type B? Bullshit.
Now it's these finals, and Flash is the man I'm rooting for. Freaking unstoppable tank terran with balls big enough to fill the entire aircraft hanger. I figure this is basically just like random practice matches before he takes the real fight, Jaedong. 2 games in I'm like "YES YES. God would have to really hate me to make me watch Flash lose. Bullshit bullshit bullshit. I actually liked Effort for awhile, but I stopped following him and didn't really care anymore. Now, just when I don't give a shit about Effort, he goes and pulls fighting~ zerg style like he's JulyZerg or something. Bullshit.
Now the MSL isn't going to be nearly as epic. Yesterday it was two unstoppable Tyrants who haven't lost in like a billion games, now it's a battered Flash vs a blood thirsty Jaedong. So maybe Flash will be out to take revenge on his OSL on Jaedong. So maybe he was saving his best strategies for Jaedong. It's still bullshit.
GRRRRR.
Go Jaedong. You'll probably lose to triple bunker rush now.
On May 23 2010 00:31 XiaoJoyce- wrote: 3-0 Free, 3-0 Pure, Almost 3-0 Effort. But effort reverse all-kill turning it into 2-3..
i know right...... im so depressed flash : [
yeah, i kept thinking of flash as some invincible starcraft machine i guess the expectations were too high, there was no way i thought effort would win
yeah, flash's mistakes in his losses were glaring. i guess you can call it somewhat unlucky but when he moved out with marines and medics a few steps behind, i was like .........
Yeah... Effort was in the right place at the right time a lot, but it was both of them that made those opportunities. I think going for the rush in game 4 is too obvious. That's too standard. The other two games he lost because of tactical error. I think in game 5 if he pulled some SCVs from his main in suspicion of all in lings, he might have held and been at a huge advantage.
it's actually kind of scary that a few seconds decided the result of game 3 and thus the entire finals. if flash had waited just THREE more seconds for his medics, his entire army wouldn't have been eaten by speedlings. effort's expo at nine would've been damaged, and his muta harass would have been inefficient. but this is why we all love starcraft. split-second decisions that can turn the game around - even the whole series as consequence
I thought normally Flash sends an scv just ahead of his initial army, just to give him an extra second for just this scenario. I don't follow that closely, but I'd say he forgot it this game, or was just like 'pffft, it's effort. I'd rather that scv mine minerals for the battle cruiser I'm teching to.'
On May 23 2010 00:19 deL wrote: It seemed more like FlaSh choked at the thought of that golden mouse there, and EffOrt surprisingly didn't succumb to the mental pressure that was applied by flash after manner CCing and then straight up raping him.
+1, Flash failed, Effort did nothing good in perticular (he played good of course but cmon...)
I think what happened with the quality of the games was that up to the disc, game 1 was excellent. Effort pulled a good move in getting his drone in, and Flash only lost that valk because of lag from when the game screwed up.
After that, both players wait like 40 minutes and play like shit for the whole series. Flash thinking 'omg, again' and Effort says he was negatively affected too. I don't think Flash winning set 1 and 2 really changed that too much. All the games were lackluster after that. Decided by silly things like Effort not killing a vulture when it should be intercepted, not attacking tanks with his mutas... Flash making silly mistakes already mentioned on page 2. It's just like... Another finals ruined by KeSPA. lol. I think they were both equally disadvantaged, but it made the series suck. Flash no longer God mode, and Effort just being a regular mid-a player getting good opportunities and taking them in a standard fashion.
1) Flash 14cc or FE is standard play for flash which leads to mid-late game advantage over his opponent. So why Flash didn't play standard on game 3 and 5? Should we go to that ' no one attacks for 10min period?'. Risky eco builds have their disadvantages.
2) As for game 4: Remember when Flash disqualified Effort, although he was already out, (Bachuss OSL) with that cheesy build? Pay up time Flashboys
3) "Flash was paid or set to lose". LOL. Well, why cry then about a valkyrie on 1set OR why so nervous and hustling hustling on 5set OR WHY HE WAS LOOKING LIKE 50 YEARS OLD when placed near Effort in the END? Is he really such a good actor?
Focus Flashboys, play some more sc other than fastest to get a more complete view on things.
On May 23 2010 04:13 Chef wrote: I think what happened with the quality of the games was that up to the disc, game 1 was excellent. Effort pulled a good move in getting his drone in, and Flash only lost that valk because of lag from when the game screwed up.
After that, both players wait like 40 minutes and play like shit for the whole series. Flash thinking 'omg, again' and Effort says he was negatively affected too. I don't think Flash winning set 1 and 2 really changed that too much. All the games were lackluster after that. Decided by silly things like Effort not killing a vulture when it should be intercepted, not attacking tanks with his mutas... Flash making silly mistakes already mentioned on page 2. It's just like... Another finals ruined by KeSPA. lol. I think they were both equally disadvantaged, but it made the series suck. Flash no longer God mode, and Effort just being a regular mid-a player getting good opportunities and taking them in a standard fashion.
The problem I have with that is that how does the delay affect Game 3-5, but not Game 1-2? Maybe it affected Effort, but how does a delay make Flash go from playing well, to playing in God mode, then back to being mortal?
On May 23 2010 04:13 Chef wrote: I think what happened with the quality of the games was that up to the disc, game 1 was excellent. Effort pulled a good move in getting his drone in, and Flash only lost that valk because of lag from when the game screwed up.
After that, both players wait like 40 minutes and play like shit for the whole series. Flash thinking 'omg, again' and Effort says he was negatively affected too. I don't think Flash winning set 1 and 2 really changed that too much. All the games were lackluster after that. Decided by silly things like Effort not killing a vulture when it should be intercepted, not attacking tanks with his mutas... Flash making silly mistakes already mentioned on page 2. It's just like... Another finals ruined by KeSPA. lol. I think they were both equally disadvantaged, but it made the series suck. Flash no longer God mode, and Effort just being a regular mid-a player getting good opportunities and taking them in a standard fashion.
The problem I have with that is that how does the delay affect Game 3-5, but not Game 1-2? Maybe it affected Effort, but how does a delay make Flash go from playing well, to playing in God mode, then back to being mortal?
I'm so tired of pointing out the same thing again and again.
Flash did not magically start playing terribly in the third and fourth game. He played just as well as he had in the previous games, except EffOrt played significantly more aggressively, and got a little bit of luck on his side for once. In game five, well I'll give you that Flash screwed up his execution.
But this wasn't some bizarre accident, or a cloud over the sun, or a fly in your soup. Flash lost games three and four for the same reasons that he can lose any game. He was at a disadvantage.
On May 23 2010 04:13 Chef wrote: I think what happened with the quality of the games was that up to the disc, game 1 was excellent. Effort pulled a good move in getting his drone in, and Flash only lost that valk because of lag from when the game screwed up.
After that, both players wait like 40 minutes and play like shit for the whole series. Flash thinking 'omg, again' and Effort says he was negatively affected too. I don't think Flash winning set 1 and 2 really changed that too much. All the games were lackluster after that. Decided by silly things like Effort not killing a vulture when it should be intercepted, not attacking tanks with his mutas... Flash making silly mistakes already mentioned on page 2. It's just like... Another finals ruined by KeSPA. lol. I think they were both equally disadvantaged, but it made the series suck. Flash no longer God mode, and Effort just being a regular mid-a player getting good opportunities and taking them in a standard fashion.
The problem I have with that is that how does the delay affect Game 3-5, but not Game 1-2? Maybe it affected Effort, but how does a delay make Flash go from playing well, to playing in God mode, then back to being mortal?
I'm not saying it didn't affect game 1 and 2. It did. All 5 games were not what I'd expect from either player. All games were decided by mistakes they wouldn't normally make. I think that were there no technically difficulties, Flash wouldn't have had flaws in his game that could be so violently affected by luck. I mean, because of this, the series was capable of going either way, rather than basically just Flash going 3:1 or something ridiculous. Flash didn't really catch any breaks in this series, and Effort caught a lot of them. Flash's wins were imperfect, and his losses were nasty things he doesn't normally let happen.
Obviously Flash could have just had an off day that had nothing to do with the incident, but it remains that he wasn't playing well except for the game that got canceled.
On game 1 he did a nice block and grabbed expos fairly easy. He had overlords all over the map, forced Flash to stay on 2 base with the initial hydras and then got drop. He had a lategame plan of killing tanks with broodlings to run over flash after a nice muta switch. But Flash scanned that drop just in time and then punished EffOrt for grabbing too many bases without an army.
EffOrt's plan depended on that drop. Good play by Flash.
Game 2: EffOrt played bad here after having a huge lead. He had a nice muta defence but Flash just maphax scanned in 2 critical moments. EffOrt lost lots of scourge and as vessel numbers grew, there was nothing he could do to defend several places at once, not even with nydus.
The beauty of game 3 is not only the ling hiding, but the way EffOrt expanded. Flash thought EffOrt grabbed his natural as well (kind of a reversed Snow plan). So Flash is playing thinking EffOrt has 5 or so lings, spire going up (he saw the lair) and no sunkens. So he moves out to either kill the third, or force a ridiculous amount of sunkens (some on nat and a lot more in the third, since it has 3 entrances). EffOrt played good mind games here.
Games 4 and 5 have been commented on a lot by people and I agree with everyone's analysis on them.
Also Flash fans should stop calling it all in. Flash can only take macro risks so much before somebody punishes him for them. It happened to oov back then and it's what July used to beat some really good people.
There was only 1 way to lose to these lings - out of many, many ways to not lose - and it was to screw it without medics. Had those m&m been in proper formation - lings would have died.
Effort tricked Flash into going out ? You don`t see a freakin natural hatchery, you see lings with speed - and you go o u t screwing your formation more than terribly ? Knowing the risk of going out, like what ? Why would you at all go out at this point, not to mention screwing up so badly ? And you do that while you r Flash ? This was absolutely ridiculous imo : o
Game 4 - You do a BBS in one of the first places to be scouted by zerg ? Then you screw up to even place your scv`s in a proper line ?
Game 5 - You get BO countered ?
Eh, I don`t know but watching these finals, I just kept thinking about this match fixing crap, even though its not too propable with damn osl final :/
Still, how can you tell ? Its $$$$, e-sports is hurting very badly so finals would need to be exciting, a stright up 3-0 would screw popularity even further, after that match fixing.
I guess I`m totally, completely over-interpretating facts though, so nevermind that.
Effort didn't go into game 5 thinking he was going to ling all-in though. He built a lair and had about 600 gas at the end of the game, clearly it was going to be a 2-hatch muta build like the one ZerO, HyuN, and Jaedong beat Flash with. I think that even if Flash had played standard he would have skipped a turret or something and lost to what would have been very early mutas.
Effort tricked Flash into going out ? You don`t see a freakin natural hatchery, you see lings with speed - and you go o u t screwing your formation more than terribly ? Knowing the risk of going out ? And you do that while you r Flash ?
Flash thought Effort was doing the same early 3-base build from game 2 that he almost lost to. If he doesn't move out there's a chance he has a huge disadvantage economically.
On May 23 2010 07:08 jalstar wrote: Effort didn't go into game 5 thinking he was going to ling all-in though. He built a lair and had about 600 gas at the end of the game, clearly it was going to be a 2-hatch muta build like the one ZerO, HyuN, and Jaedong beat Flash with. I think that even if Flash had played standard he would have skipped a turret or something and lost to what would have been very early mutas.
Effort tricked Flash into going out ? You don`t see a freakin natural hatchery, you see lings with speed - and you go o u t screwing your formation more than terribly ? Knowing the risk of going out ? And you do that while you r Flash ?
Flash thought Effort was doing the same early 3-base build from game 2 that he almost lost to. If he doesn't move out there's a chance he has a huge disadvantage economically.
But he saw quick gas and speed so he knew there couldn`t be a 3rd hatchery unless it would be mb a 3 hatch ling so ....
Okay, my theory is that Flash gulped down an energy drink before the fight, but because of the hardware problems and the delay resultying from it, the energy drink didn't last long enough and theresfore he crashed in the last few games.
On May 23 2010 07:08 jalstar wrote: Effort didn't go into game 5 thinking he was going to ling all-in though. He built a lair and had about 600 gas at the end of the game, clearly it was going to be a 2-hatch muta build like the one ZerO, HyuN, and Jaedong beat Flash with. I think that even if Flash had played standard he would have skipped a turret or something and lost to what would have been very early mutas.
Effort tricked Flash into going out ? You don`t see a freakin natural hatchery, you see lings with speed - and you go o u t screwing your formation more than terribly ? Knowing the risk of going out ? And you do that while you r Flash ?
Flash thought Effort was doing the same early 3-base build from game 2 that he almost lost to. If he doesn't move out there's a chance he has a huge disadvantage economically.
But he saw quick gas and speed so he knew there couldn`t be a 3rd hatchery unless it would be mb a 3 hatch ling so ....
Mb he really choked
EffOrt could get 3 bases with a spire if Flash went passive 14cc (like he did in game 2). It was a similar setup to game 2. Just with close positions, so Flash thought he could punish EffOrt this time, EffOrt set the game up to kill Flash on the spot.
rekrul is right, effort's gameplay in the last 3 sets was top notch. he didn't take it to late game against Flash because he knows he has much less of a chance to win there... that doesn't make his play any less good, just different.
On May 23 2010 08:04 Rekrul wrote: lol @ ppl saying effort didnt have to do much
guess u guys were too stupid to see the unreal fakeout tricks he did game 3/5, thats stuff u VERY rarely see
I completely agree, shit he pulled in those games were jaw-dropping. So sad that I was only awake to see the first two games. Eventually gave in to sleeping T_T.
But Flash scanned that drop just in time and then punished EffOrt for grabbing too many bases without an army.
T'was a vulture, my friend. Not a legendary scan by Flash, just routine scouting that Effort should have blocked. Maybe if he blocked it Flash would have gotten suspicious and scanned, but this way he didn't even have to.
Effort had an interesting build in game 3, but he won because Flash lost his marines to speedlings That would have been huge clever build or no, and I don't think Effort really lured Flash into making that mistake... Flash saw the speedlings while defending didn't he? He just moved out anyway when he got his meds.
But Flash scanned that drop just in time and then punished EffOrt for grabbing too many bases without an army.
T'was a vulture, my friend. Not a legendary scan by Flash, just routine scouting that Effort should have blocked. Maybe if he blocked it Flash would have gotten suspicious and scanned, but this way he didn't even have to.
Effort had an interesting build in game 3, but he won because Flash lost his marines to speedlings That would have been huge clever build or no, and I don't think Effort really lured Flash into making that mistake... Flash saw the speedlings while defending didn't he? He just moved out anyway when he got his meds.
I mean you can argue that Effort didn't intentionally lure Flash out, IMO, I think he did. Flash didn't move out just because he got his medics. He moved out because he killed a significant amount of lings (4-5, I forget) with no loss. He probably thought that Effort didn't have enough lings to defend his expo at 9 o'clock, not to mention he might have thought Effort took his nat.
But Flash scanned that drop just in time and then punished EffOrt for grabbing too many bases without an army.
T'was a vulture, my friend. Not a legendary scan by Flash, just routine scouting that Effort should have blocked. Maybe if he blocked it Flash would have gotten suspicious and scanned, but this way he didn't even have to.
Effort had an interesting build in game 3, but he won because Flash lost his marines to speedlings That would have been huge clever build or no, and I don't think Effort really lured Flash into making that mistake... Flash saw the speedlings while defending didn't he? He just moved out anyway when he got his meds.
There was a scan initially right before effort was about to load hydras. Then a single vulture came down to check again.
But Flash scanned that drop just in time and then punished EffOrt for grabbing too many bases without an army.
T'was a vulture, my friend. Not a legendary scan by Flash, just routine scouting that Effort should have blocked. Maybe if he blocked it Flash would have gotten suspicious and scanned, but this way he didn't even have to.
Effort had an interesting build in game 3, but he won because Flash lost his marines to speedlings That would have been huge clever build or no, and I don't think Effort really lured Flash into making that mistake... Flash saw the speedlings while defending didn't he? He just moved out anyway when he got his meds.
lol You can't be serious. That's like saying Jaedong only won vs Stork on katrina cause Stork didn't order his cannons to aim for the scourge instead of the mutas and he let his corsair get scourged. The reason why Flash moved out was because EffOrt lured him out with his hatch expo position and with the info he gave him on the previous games.
On game 1:
EffOrt blocked most of Flash vultures that game early on, that's the only one that escaped, but it made all the difference.
edit: If you ever played ZvT, you would know that it's not easy to chase and block vultures with speed, even more if they have mines to lure you into traps.
But Flash scanned that drop just in time and then punished EffOrt for grabbing too many bases without an army.
T'was a vulture, my friend. Not a legendary scan by Flash, just routine scouting that Effort should have blocked. Maybe if he blocked it Flash would have gotten suspicious and scanned, but this way he didn't even have to.
Effort had an interesting build in game 3, but he won because Flash lost his marines to speedlings That would have been huge clever build or no, and I don't think Effort really lured Flash into making that mistake... Flash saw the speedlings while defending didn't he? He just moved out anyway when he got his meds.
lol You can't be serious. That's like saying Jaedong only won vs Stork on katrina cause Stork didn't order his cannons to aim for the scourge instead of the mutas and he let his corsair get scourged. The reason why Flash moved out was because EffOrt lured him out with his hatch expo position and with the info he gave him on the previous games.
On game 1:
EffOrt blocked most of Flash vultures that game early on, that's the only one that escaped, but it made all the difference.
edit: If you ever played ZvT, you would know that it's not easy to chase and block vultures with speed, even more if they have mines to lure you into traps.
Uhm Flash lost because he moved out three seconds too early, without his medics. It doesn't matter if Effort lured him out, Flash would have been fine with marine/medic and would've hit nine before mutas.
I mean, why is everyone pointing out Flash's mistakes as if he was some kind of robot.
He's going to make mistakes, and even more in a finals when he's got pressure on him. EffOrt made Flash made mistakes. Flash made EffOrt make mistakes, like on game 2 where EffOrt lost a bunch of scourge carelessly because he had his attention drawn by Flash by raids. He doesn't make that kind of mistakes usually, but he did then.
You don't see EffOrt supports going "oh well effort made mistakes, if he just scourged that dropship and all those vessels he would have been able to hold all his expos".
The reason why Flash moved out was because EffOrt lured him out with his hatch expo position and with the info he gave him on the previous games.
Point = this is wrong. You are saying Effort "lured" him when it was Flash just making a stupid mistake. Effort's build or strategy didn't win him the game, which is what you are saying?
I am just saying that Effort didn't have some genius build that resulted in his win. Flash screwed up, for whatever reason.
Ok, EffOrt on game 2 goes and grabs 3 bases, first taking a third and grabs a huge econ lead.
On game 3 EffOrt does something similar but doesn't grab the nat. Flash does not know this as his scv leaves the main and goes through effOrt's 3rd, he sees drones spawning there. As soon as the SCV is gone, EffOrt stops making drones and goes lings.
So flash has info from the previous game, sees a "hidden" third and only 6 lings or so at his front, most of which die. He sees a game winning move, where EffOrt can't defend his third and his nat with sunkens at the same time and he moves out. Him moving with or without medics makes no difference as EffOrt has a bunch of lings to surround him and mutas hatching. He needed firebats to stop those lings (by that time EffOrt would have had mutas).
Flash took a risk based on information, information that EffOrt gave him. How is not EffOrt's strategy what made Flash move out.
I mean I bet if Flash got his mech army annihilated on game 1 when he moved out against hydras, everyone would be saying "omg Flash stop going mech" or "Flash you did a stupid mistake by moving out". But since it worked, everyone is praising him for his wonderful timming.
On May 23 2010 12:37 IntoTheWow wrote: Ok, EffOrt on game 2 goes and grabs 3 bases, first taking a third and grabs a huge econ lead.
On game 3 EffOrt does something similar but doesn't grab the nat. Flash does not know this as his scv leaves the main and goes through effOrt's 3rd, he sees drones spawning there. As soon as the SCV is gone, EffOrt stops making drones and goes lings.
So flash has info from the previous game, sees a "hidden" third and only 6 lings or so at his front, most of which die. He sees a game winning move, where EffOrt can't defend his third and his nat with sunkens at the same time and he moves out. Him moving with or without medics makes no difference as EffOrt has a bunch of lings to surround him and mutas hatching. He needed firebats to stop those lings (by that time EffOrt would have had mutas).
Flash took a risk based on information, information that EffOrt gave him. How is not EffOrt's strategy what made Flash move out.
I mean I bet if Flash got his mech army annihilated on game 1 when he moved out against hydras, everyone would be saying "omg Flash stop going mech" or "Flash you did a stupid mistake by moving out". But since it worked, everyone is praising him for his wonderful timming.
lol.
Lol no. Flash saw that Effort didn't take his natural way past the regular timing. He knew Effort wasn't on 3 hatch, he's not retarded. All he needed to do was wait for firebats and move out (hell, if he had medics he might have come out on top. 8 marines/2 medics vs 8 lings or so) There would have been enough time to get to nine before mutas popped. Watch the VOD.
Flash left EffOrt's nat earlier than the time EffOrt would have layed his 3rd hatch. Flash even leaves his SCV in the nat a second, waiting for the drone to come to expand, but he's chased off by some lings and then sees the hidding 2nd hatch.
What Flash sees:
7 lings (1 of the initial 8 died killing the scv making the cc). 4 of which die.
What there really is:
11 zerglings vs 8 marines. It's true that medics are in the back, but Flash thought there were 3 lings, not ELEVEN.
Do you think it would have made a difference with the medics in the group? Flash is only caught a little out of position and some marines retreat behind the medics and they still get killed fairly easy.
Maybe with the medics in the group he could have lowered his loses a little, but not by much.
Also it's not like Flash can move out with his first Firebats if he feels theres mass lings out, because EffOrt could just hide his lings and backstab.
edit: by the time Flash has his 2 firebats and 2 more rines out, EffOrt mutas are already out.
From the VOD, it looks likeFlash's SCV scouts Effort's natural way past when the hatchery should be morphing.
Hmm well it depends on if he had stim or not. If he has stim and medics are around marines, who knows what wouuld have happened. Mutas are morphing when firebats are at natural, it seems like, so it would have gotten to nine on time i think.
We can assume things on and on. Would Effort really throw away his second base/gas to backstab? If stim was done, those firebats aren't even essential anymore.
I thought we were talking about 3 hatch build. Hatch Lair Hatch isnt a "3 hatch build" and Flash would have known Effort was teching fast lair with small economy.
I'm pretty sure Flash saw enough to know that EffOrt was going for a two hatch, as opposed to a three hatch build. But with a normal two hatch, a third hatchery is thrown down while the lair is morphing (I'm correct, right, that is the timing?). Instead, obviously, EffOrt never built that third hatch and instead built more zerglings. EffOrt loses two zerglings trying to snipe an scv, and two more moments later trying to pull a standard EffOrt-trick, slipping in a zergling to scout. EffOrt then has eleven zerglings outside of Flash's base, with two making at the near hatchery. Flash only knew that EffOrt had three zerglings, and likely presumed that EffOrt had spent extra minerals on his hatchery.
In that position, moving out with only marines is completely safe, any marine micro will kill off the zerglings with no losses. Fantasy does this all the time to great effect. Flash likely felt like should EffOrt have switched to building more lings after his hatch, then he would have insurance in the form of his medics. He clearly did not anticipate EffOrt having such a ling force and in such a perfect position.
I am by no means a competant BW player, but that series between Flash and Effort was amazing. The way it was set up--Flash some invincible player vs a guy down on his luck--the comeback play took me by complete surprise.
In the last game, Flash just melted in my opinion. That build seemed incredibly stupid considering the short rush distance and the fact that Effort is a zerg player. With proper micro, Effort raced around the two bases and crushed Flash's economy. Flash displayed a gaping hole in his play.
I mean his game was described as "transcendental," which seems absurd and awesome at the same time. And Effort came back and won. Not only that, but he was smiling before the last game, while Flash was sweating bullets. Amazing. Simply incredible.
Though the technicalities escape me, I still just want to relate how awesome that series was.
On May 22 2010 22:25 Wonders wrote: It seemed to suddenly all fall into place for Effort.
Game 4: Effort sent his first overlord straight at the center, and guess what. Furthermore Flash didn't block his ramp at all after he killed the first lot of lings, and let a ling get in and scout the starport, which sealed it.
oh did he actually scout the starport? i thought he hadn't ... also he scouted the dropships too, and had already moved his hydras back expecting it
On May 22 2010 22:25 Wonders wrote: It seemed to suddenly all fall into place for Effort.
Game 4: Effort sent his first overlord straight at the center, and guess what. Furthermore Flash didn't block his ramp at all after he killed the first lot of lings, and let a ling get in and scout the starport, which sealed it.
oh did he actually scout the starport? i thought he hadn't ... also he scouted the dropships too, and had already moved his hydras back expecting it
His build wasn't a ling all-in build. The 12hatch 11gas 10pool build is specifically tailored to strike fast with speedlings to lower marine count in order to allow the initial mutalisks to deliver more damage. If Effort didn't sneak his lings into Flash's main, then he probably wouldn't have decided to rally both hatcheries and pump lings. The first time I can remember the 12hatch 11gas 10pool being used was back in Blue Storm by the Zerg Twins (Yarnc and Luxury), when one of them said that the build was very strong on the map. I'm not sure if it's them that devised it, but it wouldn't be too unlikely.
EPT
