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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 22 2018 01:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I honestly didn't read it all. But I can't help but feel like your argument about feminism is at best incoherent. Seems to me you're trying to jump through a bunch of mental hoops to justify having a political position of 'I don't want gender equality'.
To break it down to you, you're basically saying 'you can't have equality without going to the army. And as a korean non-pussy man, I don't want you to go to the army. So you can't have equality. ' This really isn't a good approach - it's fine if you say 'you can't have equality in area A without also having equality in area B' - but it should be self-evident that you cannot couple this statement with 'and even if you would agree to having equality in area B, then I would deny you that, meaning you would not be entitled to equality in area A'. It's a real catch 22 style argument - you want to avoid making those.
I'm not the most traveled guy in the world, but I've been to south korea twice and like 20 different countries in total. South Korea was BY FAR, no question about it whatsoever, the country with the most ass backwards gender norms. I mean I know it's not comparable to islamic theocracies or whatever, obviously, but there are elements that make every norwegian violently shake their heads in disbelief when I share stories. You seem far, far too dismissive towards korean feminists (even if i accept that a bunch of them are 'crazy') compared to how gender-segregated your society seems to be.
Hey Liquid'Drone,
Thanks for the comments.
I think you've caught on a side point, have an opinion on it, and you've responded as such because the post wasn't about I don't want gender equality or about views on feminism, rather, it was about a self-identity which is unique because it both Korean and America, and traditional Korea rather than modern Korea, but still Korean.
Now in the course of me writing about that, the easiest thing to do was to throw out a number of points that could best illustrate that identity. As such, I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm just expressing an honest viewpoint on it, if you want to classify that view point as totally misogynistic and negative because it is misogynistic, then that's your opinion, but I'm not making my points as an argument. That being said, I will clarify what I refer to as feminism in Korea and the issue of gender equality, because the context of both Norway and South Korea are polar opposites.
1. I don't have political position here, I have a cultural one. The difference being is that I am not seeking to impose my viewpoint on the society for a change or to maintain my position, rather, I am happy for people to believe and act as they would like, but in how I live my family life, how I interact at home and how I raise my own children and to those I am responsible for, it will be as an old school Korean guy. This is the culture I was raised in, and while there maybe more progressive elements of culture out there, it ain't for me.
2. For Koreans (and from other cultures with similar understandings) that view society in terms of gender roles, the focus is on what these roles are inherently responsible for, and equality is more based on the influence of power through these roles. But, definitely, because it starts as gender role based, the expression and channels of power are different and there definitely is inequality between the genders because the man has a much wider array of direct power channels than the woman. But in this type of society, because the social unit is not just the individual, but the family group, the man is taking on the responsibility to represent his family against other families.
Thus one key difference between here and Norway is the focus on the individual vs the group. And the second one, is the trade off the woman gets in the gender role system for being set into the role.
3. So comparably to my father, I'm a complete liberal feminist in his view, simply because it is not 1940. For me, the greater society can do whatever they want, and, whatever the genders roles are initially set out to be, they do not supersede that of basic common sense, when you have a social group where the optimal skills should done by the optimal people, not just based on gender roles. The exceptional engineer, regardless of gender, should be the lead, and wherever the better person is, then practically that person should take the role. Except that, the starting position is based off of gender roles, so, that does strongly limit the possibility of women, specifically, taking on the same role as a man would if she is only a little bit better, average or sub average in performance to the male. So only the exceptional ones get to make the jump, but even in Korea, when there is exceptional talent, they also usually get the authority, in that field specifically, so they can do their job. Koreans are practical that way.
Now I bring this point up, to explain in detail what is not apparent and easily dismissed from a non gender role society - whether or not you've read this far or not. But why have gender roles nowadays when not having gender roles seems like a more efficient use of people and probably optimizes society's production in gender. Why not have a choice for people to just figure things out between them and give the full option to do so? It comes down to again, individual/group and the responsibilities associated with it.
4. Inherent in the gender role setup, rather than oppression of the woman for more power, it seeks for the male to take on more responsibility for the entire group and bear the majority of the consequences. Again, this is easily abused among the less educated or the theocracy minded, but bear with me. In the case of a Korea becoming more individualistic and less group oriented, then actually, even the gender role set up, is less and less necessary, as the onus is on the individual to take care of themselves and they should be afforded all the rights, equality, to do so, or else there would be just be complete disadvantages only, as it's no longer groups vs groups led by men, but men vs men vs woman vs woman and it simply is not fair to the women to have a lack of equal power channels.
BUT,
In the case case of the gender role set-up, what is the trade-off do women get when they are in the system. Assume that like my wife, she choose to be with an old school guy like me, and then she is forced into limited power channels, but what does she gain? She gains:
-freedom from direct financial responsibility/burden to earn, there is no expectation that she must contribute x amount;
-she gains full priority in physical protection i.e. women and children first, and we go to war;
-she gains the ability set the expectations of the standard of living and for me to do my best to follow or exceed it (or else I'm failing in my role as a man and her husband);
-she gains priority in social situations in terms of not having to pay, being seated first, not having to wait.
NOW,
these are all old fashion things, but in a brutally competitive country like Korea, they are not small things. Working in Korea is so fucking tough and so fucking competitive that the pressures could crack anyone. But due to the rising costs of everything, not working and staying at home to be a full time mom is considered a luxury for women, so even if you a gender role pro woman, unless you found a guy who could meet your life style expectations from his income alone, then you're in a minority nowadays. And as such, those family that are double income, the men tend to also take more of the traditional household tasks at home.
Korea is still at war. While we don't really think so in South Korea, but we are. As such, unlike Norway which is not likely to get hit by artillery fire any time soon, we are. So all able bodied men are mandatory conscripted to go to the army. Both my sons, unless they renounce their citizenship will have to go, and my eldest in just 9 more years from now. Women are completely excepted from there and in the case there was war, all women and children would be shipped down further south as a priority and the civilian men second. But even all civilian men under 35 would need to go to their reserve post at that time (reservist training happens ever year for 6 years after discharge). But in Norway, I'm sure all the men and women would equally get evacuated right?
If I am unable to meet the financial requirements of my wife, then I must bear the social, physical and mental abuse until I am able to because I am not fulfilling the implicit agreement we made in getting married that I would provide at such and such a level. If my wife says, the kids must go to this school and we must live in this area, I can negotiate a bit, but if it is is in my means to make it happen, even if I am now exiled to additional jobs and no vacation, then it is what it is. This is not a trivial matter. Both my sons go to private school and we live in an affluent area, and at times I have not hired additional staff so I could pay for my son's tuition, and instead simply grinded out more hours at work.
Now the last point may seem like common old school chivalry, but in Korea, in any given social situation, if a girl is with a group of men and women, then she does not need to pay for any costs for food, drinks or events. Now this is changing a lot in Korea, i.e. dutch pay and separate bills. But in my generation 20 years ago, the guys took turns paying and women never paid ever, and we're not talking boyfriends here, just social friends. And this is late 90's early 2000's. My wife when she was working could save 100% of her salary because her father was still responsible for all her costs, including social and shopping, until she was married, where then those costs/responsibilities were transferred to me. But we see the most divide here in that dutch pay is becoming more prominent, but mostly because of financial reasons. In more affluent circles, the women still don't pay for anything and when it comes to dating at all social levels, unless the woman is very specific about her paying, the man pays for everything. In this case, if the woman keeps dating the man, she will eventually chip in to pay because he has displayed his willingness to pay and now she would like to ease his financial burden because they soon maybe a couple and then his financial well being is a priority for her now too.
Korea as you can see is at times materially focused and people are practical minded.
5. Now the final fucking point, goddam,
The problem with the feminist movement in Korea is that most of them want all the current gender role benefits while getting full gender equality benefits and none of the costs.
They can say how they are being mistreated and they need a man or be with a man to compete in that group setting or else they need to be exceptional to be considered while they are better than average for certain jobs.
THIS IS ALL TRUE. no denying it. I'm not denying it.
Now, I like Korea as it is, it's changing because it's becoming more individualistic, so this entire 'leading the group thing' it simply isn't as necessary, and I'm sure the affluent class will continue to be exactly as is anyway, the major change is in the middle class.
But, for example: you want equal pay for an entry level marketing job between the man and woman. The woman is age 23, and the man is age 26. Why the 3 year difference? Because the man had to go to the army for 21 months (was much longer before, at my time it was 30-32 months, my uncle served 3.5 years, my father 4.5 years). Now the man will start with a slightly higher salary because the 2 years he spent in the army will reflected in the consideration, but both have the same degree, both are starting at entry level.
Now say that women get equal pay, but do not have serve at all. Men still go and serve for 21 months, but women have no disruption in their university situation, don't go to jail if they avoid jail, don't go to jail if they miss reservist training, and meanwhile in all social gathering do not pay an equal share of costs and in the case of war they still get evacuated first over other civilian males, who if they are still under 35, must go and fight. (maybe the age has lowered, not sure anymore).
What the Korea feminist movement fails to understand is that this war conscription thing is not a trivial thing that it goes hand in hand with what equality is because why the fuck would men take equality seriously if they are further getting shafted by a feminists gender role demands/expectations, then want to have gender equality in finances and work. That would make every fucking guys life even fucking harder because their costs are higher and they have lost 2 years of their life on top of it.
6. The main thing is that you think that Korean women are just like women in Norway who do things for themselves and are just oppressed people, when Korean women know how to work this system like fucking pros, and while it still isn't equality, its pretty fucking good option in a ultra competitive high pressure environment. I think most modern Korean men who are at the bottom of the corporate ladder would love to have a Norwegian wife and for them to do the equal house work and kid raising and being a latte dad and LIVE IN NORWAY than live in Korea choson hell. But it ain't Norway, its Korea.
7. Now coming to my own situation. I'm fine with gender equality. If Korea wants to have it, then go for it. But when young feminists attack me for me being me, and I tell them well you need to look at the conscription point, and they say, that it doesn't matter and it's not necessary for us (meaning we don't want to go to the army either), and what to bitch about how their daddy's didn't treat them like sons, while they are still using daddy's credit card to buy everything, or at the end of the meal after they have bitched to me they get up and have no expectations to pay, then at that point, I don't bitch at them and say, 'the fuck, I can treat you like foreigners and equal, but wtf you still want the benefits of being a Korean woman beloved and worshiped by us men", but instead, I'll let them complain, I'll pay the bill, and won't bring up the conscription thing again. Cause, I don't judge these feminists as bad, to me, they are still my responsibility on some cultural level and I do hope our society can be less abusive and more fair, I know it ain't 1940, but in the case of Korea, for me, I don't want to put them in a position where they will be physically hurt. In that respect, I put all the women lives in my life ahead of mine, including those I'm responsible for. But I guess in Norway, every life is equal too right? And that is fine for Norway, but come war time, you still going to feel that way?
8. Last point, Korea is complex, you come visit here, you see what you see, but really it is so much more complex about why things are the way they are. Overseas Koreans come here, judge judge judge, but they don't understand why the school system is set up the way it is, rout learning etc, because its so fucking competitive here and that's the only fair way to do it, by objective mind-numbing testing. Foreigners come here from populations of 6m, with lots of natural resources and stability, and make their judgement call on Korea without any understanding of the context.
In life, if you can only see what is bad about something is easy, understand why it could be good is where you get some insight into it. Also- I'm older, you probably met a lot of younger people. My generation is gonna be irrelevant in just 10 more years in Korea, if we aren't already. But, again, I wrote this, not because I'm expecting you read it all, you didn't read the whole initial post, you're probably not going to read this, but I wrote it because someone else will read this and gain something from it, rather than just a snap judgement call.
I knew I was going to get flamed for this OP, but it was worth it to me to at least write it out one last time and explain it too, just because I think it serves as a good historical account at the very least, as well as the unique perspective that goes along with it. ie. the straight white korean guy point.
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"I am what I am, both the good and bad, i don't and can't just pick and choose the good parts of the culture."
I wish more of my Korean friends were able to accept this mentality. I work in a small Korean owned business in Los Angeles. The owner is a generation 1.5 Korean man with a similar cultural mentality as you. A handful of my coworkers are FOB's who's primary language is Korean and are able to keep up with my boss during hweshik. The rest are either non-Korean Asians, half-Koreans, or generation 2/3 Koreans.
The median age is around 24, and we all get along with each other as everyone consumes the same entertainment content (American music/TV/Pop culture). But even though we almost never discuss it unless we're getting wasted, there's a kind of feeling of incompleteness amongst us in regards to being Koreans, half Koreans in a Korean business where we deal with Korean customers and non Korean customers/the public.
My boss, and maybe his immidiate subordinate are probably the most comfortable in this context. They both are fluent in English and Korean, are able to navigate both Korean culture and interacting with non-Koreans, and consume Korean and American content.
Everyone else...
The FOB coworkers, despite workable English, feel at ease most of the time at work, and comfortable talking in english with other coworkers, but uncomfortable when they have to deal with non-Korean customers. And then there's their lives outside of work, where they silo themselves into strictly Korean circles; yet at the same time they want to be able to navigate the mainstream culture, improve their English, and be able to assimilate and get ahead.
Myself, and my other Generation 2/3 (and Half) Koreans, feel unease and uncomfortable not being fluent in Korean, or being unable to be fully confident given the setting or the cultural norms that are expected. On one hand, we don't really have any mental barriers when it comes to going to post education, looking for other jobs that may not be Korean owned, advancing as we choose in society. But I sense we all have a longing to not only becoming closer to our ethnic ties, but being accepted by other Koreans as Koreans.
I found it pretty funny reading this blog, because everything read was so thought provoking. Then I got to the part about drinking and it's so fucking true: just drinking with my coworkers and getting wasted during hweshik and on our days off taught me so much; and being able to keep up with my boss and the other hardcore Koreans earned more [I don't want to use the word respect, but maybe I should?] from them towards me.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 22 2018 02:33 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +If I'm going to live somewhere, I am going to respect and interact in that culture as the mainstream culture. If I'm in the US, I'm going to interact as a straight white guy, If I'm China, I'm going to interact as a straight chinese guy, if I'm in a gay bar, I'm going to interact as a gay teddy bear. My point is, the context doesn't define you, I define me, and I do so, not from my own opinion, but from my foundation in have a clear core identity, then, whatever culture I'm part of then I embrace and respect. If I want to be a Korean in America, then I should fuck off back to Korea, asking for respect in another country while trying to make others interact with me as a Korean when the don't even know what that means, is fucking dumb. Show nested quote +I concur. The fuck I need to spend my time to fit in with others lol. I need to get me what I need to get. I don't see how that follows what you said. You are clearly not a gay teddy bear. Whether it is for manipulation in business or for friendship, whether you know you are doing it or not, whether you maintain some core aspect of yourself or not, you're being a chameleon and that is all I really said. It's all role playing. "Fitting in" is BigFan's words, not mine. I realise those are loaded words that would offend you. I don't think I inaccurately repeated what you said you do. What I'm trying to point out is that some of the things you are fervent about are based in repeating the general, commonly held beliefs of other "old school hot blooded Korean men." If you were 20 year old woman, it would be inadmissible to have these same beliefs, because you would have no friends. And in vice versa, if you held the views of a 20 year old woman as you are now, you would have none of your old school hot blooded Korean friends still talking to you. You are powerfully motivated to have these baseless ideas about men who are pussies or women who are feminazis. Powerfully motivated to think that housework is the wifey's job. Powerfully motivated to call yourself an alpha male even though you are old and fat. And all I'm really saying is what you already said yourself. Obviously you can't say you're trying to fit in because that would not be manly. But you are adapting to the group you're in and affirming its identity, which is the same thing in different words.
1. about the chameleon point, I agree with that, but it's not a matter of wanting to fit in, it's a matter of that I'm there and it's the practical thing to do, including being a happy gay teddy bear. They may know I'm not gay, but if I'm going to a gay bar, why the fuck would I go if I'm going to a happy straight uptight guy, when I'd have more fun and likely my purpose in going is to enjoy myself as happy gay teddy bear.
2. No, my wife share my same world views and she has friends. You guys always assume that Korea women are all oppressed people waiting to be rescued, some Korean women embrace the gender roles and exert a lot of power in their sphere of influence, such in the case of my wife that I'm more the puppet at times for her expectations.
3. If I had a view of a modern 20 year old Korea girl, I'd have Liquid'Drone as my new friend.
4. It isn't that my ideas are baseless, it's my viewpoint, I don't need to justify my viewpoint, nor am I looking for validation on it. If I say a man is a pussy, he is a pussy. I stand by my words. Now just cause I say he is a pussy, that doesn't mean he thinks he is a pussy or all his pussy friends beside him, but, for me, he is a pussy along with all his pussy friends. And I don't really care about these Korean feminists, but I use them to point out benefits of our gender role society that they don't seem to realize and take it for granted.
5. I'm not powerfully motivated lol, I'm just saying. Now housework in my family is done by my wife. and its done by my sons, and if they are all sick, it's done by me. Now if I was sick and dying and didn't make enough for them, well unfortunately my wife will have to work. It's not set in stone, but this way, I prefer it, because I like working and crushing people and while I love cooking, I'd rather be out there working. Now if my wife didn't like that, she didn't have to marry me, but she was for it, this ain't 1940, it wasn't an arranged marriage, lol and if other Korean women don't wanna do housework, good for them but I ain't gonna marry and support them. Now, are the guys in Korea who are for complete gender equality pussies? In Korea as a Korean. Fuck yeah. But if Korean woman complete gender equality, would I be against it, no, cause what choice would I have in the matter in 2018 anyway.
6. But to your actual point, - back to 1, I am totally a chameleon, and yes, to 'fit in' but the reason behind it is different - what I gathered from your original post is the reason to fit in was for self affirmation, but I don't need self affirmation of why I would 'fit in' rather, its because I already am very secure in who I am, I chose to adapt to the group very willingly. Its the same action but different position - one of strength vs one of insecurity or need. IF, I read your first response incorrectly, then sorry, that is what I thought you said and this is what i'm saying. And chef, when you're old and fat like me, alpha male isn't about kicking someone's ass, its all about confidence that can be backed up by character. And that's why I have no problem calling out a pussy when I see one. And just to be clear, all this pussy calling isn't directed at any particular individual, it's me being very clear in my position, yes/no, pussy/man, but if someone were to ask me if they were a pussy and they were, I'd tell them though lol.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 22 2018 04:06 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
"I am what I am, both the good and bad, i don't and can't just pick and choose the good parts of the culture."
I wish more of my Korean friends were able to accept this mentality. I work in a small Korean owned business in Los Angeles. The owner is a generation 1.5 Korean man with a similar cultural mentality as you. A handful of my coworkers are FOB's who's primary language is Korean and are able to keep up with my boss during hweshik. The rest are either non-Korean Asians, half-Koreans, or generation 2/3 Koreans.
The median age is around 24, and we all get along with each other as everyone consumes the same entertainment content (American music/TV/Pop culture). But even though we almost never discuss it unless we're getting wasted, there's a kind of feeling of incompleteness amongst us in regards to being Koreans, half Koreans in a Korean business where we deal with Korean customers and non Korean customers/the public.
My boss, and maybe his immidiate subordinate are probably the most comfortable in this context. They both are fluent in English and Korean, are able to navigate both Korean culture and interacting with non-Koreans, and consume Korean and American content.
Everyone else...
The FOB coworkers, despite workable English, feel at ease most of the time at work, and comfortable talking in english with other coworkers, but uncomfortable when they have to deal with non-Korean customers. And then there's their lives outside of work, where they silo themselves into strictly Korean circles; yet at the same time they want to be able to navigate the mainstream culture, improve their English, and be able to assimilate and get ahead.
Myself, and my other Generation 2/3 (and Half) Koreans, feel unease and uncomfortable not being fluent in Korean, or being unable to be fully confident given the setting or the cultural norms that are expected. On one hand, we don't really have any mental barriers when it comes to going to post education, looking for other jobs that may not be Korean owned, advancing as we choose in society. But I sense we all have a longing to not only becoming closer to our ethnic ties, but being accepted by other Koreans as Koreans.
I found it pretty funny reading this blog, because everything read was so thought provoking. Then I got to the part about drinking and it's so fucking true: just drinking with my coworkers and getting wasted during hweshik and on our days off taught me so much; and being able to keep up with my boss and the other hardcore Koreans earned more [I don't want to use the word respect, but maybe I should?] from them towards me.
Hey, thank you so much for sharing that, I read a few times over,
is 'Generation 2/3' a thing now? lol, I guess it must be, learnt something new - god I feel old now lol-
I'll give you my quickie take on what you wrote in terms maybe explaining their view points, but again, I think its a great post in that it really is sharing a lot, authentically.
For the FOB's they look at America and they compare it back to their lives back in Korea, same like my parents, so no matter what shitty thing happened, well fuck, at least this is over all better than 1960's Korea. So for the FOBs their ambitions and what they are looking to achieve is pretty straightforward, a life better than the life they left behind in Korea. It's funny that I had a lot of wealth visa student friends in the early 2000's and they decided to stay in America and live a simpler life and basically retire in America at age 21 rather than go back, just because the pace of life was so much better. Their parents of course freaked out, but my point is, for the FOB's they don't know what elite American culture is, the haven't been to the Hampton or live in Upper East Side Manhattan, even if the live in NYC. So for them, they don't know that part of America exists, they just want their slice of a life better than the one they left behind. Nowadays the young people in Korea say, Choson Hell, meaning the last dynasty's name, Choson, and hell meaning that even if Korea is fucking tough, at least is fun as fuck and we're all suffering together. But its not for everyone.
I think the point you touched on about yourself and the 2/3 and half Koreans is very poignant and spot on, because it was for me how I felt as well growing up. Although I spend summers in Korea growing up, there was no pop culture back then and as a kid you just interact with your cousins who basically get that you're different anyways. So when I decided to study and work in Korea, there were so many things I ended up learning, but, in learning them, it wasn't like it was something foreign I had to digest, but rather was like a tetris puzzle just coming into place, like it was just filling in the missing pieces that were waiting for those pieces.
Some points though: the most uneducated a Korean is, the more they are just plain ignorant. I have worked for the Korean gov't, I have 3 uni degrees and I've worked everywhere, and sometimes I'll get in the taxi in Seoul or go the market and I'll some guy ask me why isn't my Korean better and why didn't my parents teach me better and then proceed to talk to me like I'm a retard lol. (I almost got in a fight with a guy around my same age about this years ago in the taxi, just cause he was being a rude fuck). But this was 15-20 years ago. But I can meet a Korean uni professor or a major conglomerate head and they will sincerely complement me on my Korean as they have traveled and understand how it could be like for those Koreans like me who were raised abroad but came back to live in Korea and bring something unique back to Korea. And so I've come to realize that its more a reflect on their class and education in how they receive you, I mean, maybe a year ago I was spoken rudely too in the same way because they could hear my accent and sometime I don't use the exact right word just cause my vocabulary is limited to business and home things. And I just looked back at her and laughed and didn't think more of it, I'm in my 40's and get me in a business meeting and I'm fluent as fuck.
But I came to realization that I'll never be native South Korean and I'm good with that, that being said, having lived here for such a long time, its not a mystery to me and so I think that contributes to my confidence in that if I need to act the part or I am in that situation, I'm fully aware of it. But you can't get that understanding by staying in America, it only comes from living in Korea, unfortunately.
But this longing to be accepted as Korean by other Koreans and the longing to be more Korean, all I can say is that, - and I think you'll get it - its in our blood. It calls us because our culture is so unique. The older the culture is, the more unsaid things there are about it, hidden protocols etc. In the case of Korean and Japanese culture, the things that are unsaid are far more important than the things that are said. Now for Korean and Japanese, we express it different and with different intentions, but specially for Koreans, what make us unique is that we've been this land bridge between Japan and China for at least a couple of thousands of years. And yet Korea, being stuck in the middle was there and not assimilated as Japanese, or Chinese for all this time (but of course taken over as a mogol vassel state, and tributary state to China at various times and level), but my point is for our culture to have survived and for us to have expressed ourselves, not as just a Chinese province but a unique national identity, there are certain cultural failsafes in being Korean that no matter how similar we are to Chinese and Japanese cultures, we are markedly different. And this is shown by how little we intermarry even outside of Korea and this longing you speak off. Because when Koreans are together, we have this type of mind meld thing going on, that there are like 2 things going on, the words and the content, but then we have the unsaid actions and the context, and it is the later which you can feel instinctively is going on, but since you haven't been steeped in the culture you can't articulate or participate in it. But its why hanging out with other Koreans or half Koreans seems to give you feeling of togetherness that is like this +2 upgrade aura that you don't get anywhere else or with other cultures. It's why foreigners who come to Korea can really fall in love with being with Koreans, even though we're irrational nutters, because of this closeness. But most foreigners, they don't get it, no matter how good their Korean is, - cause they were not raised to feel the non verbal cues,- and most Koreans they don't get this because the don't need to articulate it, it's just there. But for people in our case, it is this really annoying thing where, it makes us feel insecure and less Korean because we sense it but that's about it, but when we see it action, we feel it's embrace, and so we long for that, that full Korean bonding.
You know the word 'nuun chi' eye sense right? But that is actually a more conscious form of what I'm talking about, where there is a deliberate intentions that are behind the actions and we need to sort it out. But this Korean longingness that makes grown Korean men still act like children together or a kind of instant solidarity that we won't give up and lets take it to the ends of the earth, that is what you have in your blood. Korean Americans misunderstand this and will say, Koreans are like bros when we meet, and I can understand that superficial understand because they only socialize with the community in America, unlike in your case when you're working in an actual Korean company. But it goes more further than that, our Korean blood connection make us feel, in a group, able to die for one another as we feel each other. A really bad historical case example is that when South Korea sent troops to Vietnam in the 60's to help the US Vietnam war effort, we went because we wanted US dollars and the South Korean marines that went there didn't want to kill Vietnamese, they just wanted to patrol and get paid. South Korean's don't join the army or the marines to have fun, we're not that kind of war culture. But anyway, the viet cong aren't dumb and they notice when we get there and in order to dissuade South Korea in sending more troops, they ambushed a patrol, and killed a mutilated a few soldiers (so the story goes on our side), so, that patrol and other patrols similarly affected, goes to the nearest village and kills all the civilian men, burn down the village, and kill all the animals etc. They just fucking raze the place down. So the viet cong are like pissed and wtf these fucking Koreans, so, they managed to kidnap our marines and the tortured them to death in the night so the platoon could hear him scream to death in the jungle. So what do our marines do. They go and raze 2 villages and I think at this point, they basically kill everything, like everything -like so much so, that these are pretty much war crimes and to this day some circles of Vietnam want an apology for what happened during this time and from my age group, I getting this basically first hand info from my dad's generation. -So anyway after that the viet cong realize that fuck, we kill 3 of them, they go raze 3 villages, it's fucked, and so they observe and realize that if they don't kill South Koreans, they don't go and try to kill viet congs. So by middle/end of the war period, whenever the viet cog saw a South Korean badge, they didn't engage and just let us patrol.
My point isn't to educate on war crimes of South Koreans, but what we did was wrong. And in most other cultures, there would have been a dissenter to say, boys, fuck, this ain't right. But nope, it was pretty much a mind meld that everyone was like ok, well this is our response. There wasn't a verbal decision made, it was just done and everyone understood that this was going to be the response. I think you get what I'm saying. This the point where I could have a foreigner, who speaks totally fluent Korea try to look down on me because he thinks he is more korean than me, but he don't have that longing in heart and oneness in the mind, and he never will. But you do, it just a matter of one day finding the time to fill in the blanks, but the fact you have the longing means that you are Korean, and as bad as it sounds, it was there just because it was in your blood.
And last point, yes, drinking hardcore with your boss at after work drinking hweishik, yes, you got their respect, but more than that, you were being in that togetherness with them, that kind of togetherness that they know they if they needed you to work with them all-in, that they could depend on you to do that, more than just respect, its you being accepted as Korean.
As for me, - outside of business- most Koreans will be turned off by me, and won't think I'm Korean at all or not Korean enough if they meet me and like I said, I don't really like everything about South Korea modern culture, so even if I could pretend, I don't. But my close Korean friends and my in-laws tend to joke that I'm a displaced person from the chosen era, when there are those moments, like your hweishiks, when they can feel our shared blood, and it does surprise them a lot, because they would never suspect it and they can't consciously nuunch see it. Because I don't need to wear it on my sleeve and say, look at me I'm a real Korean, let me try to impress you, rather, us being Korean, it is an inescapable fate. It's in your blood don't doubt it my friend.
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Norway28521 Posts
Just to be clear, I have no problems accepting that there are cultural differences, that social developments take time, that what I might perceive as oppression due to my own cultural background is not perceived as such by people from a different cultural background. I appreciate your lengthy response. Tbh, my issue with the first post was more that I disliked your style of argument (basically creating the catch 22 type of situation that I addressed) than that I disliked your expressed point of view.
But anyway, for this post, responding in accordance with your own bullet points:
1: I don't think it's possible to have a position that is not a political position about a political subject. A position of 'it doesn't need to be changed politically' is a political position. A statement like ‘I’m not trying to impose my viewpoint on society’ is very easy to maintain in a situation where society’s currently dominant viewpoint resembles your own – but this is not an apolitical point of view, it’s a political point of view agreeing with the status quo.
2: I definitely accept that Norway (and I guess most western countries) are more individual-oriented than south korea (and I guess most asian countries). In general, I’m both positive and negative towards this – I greatly value my personal freedom to express myself as an individual rather than as a representative of 34 year old Norwegian males, but I also think the west largely operates with a perverted, consumer-driven version of individuality where people are encouraged to ‘follow this basic formula to succeed in highlighting your uniqueness’ or whatever. I’m certain that I, personally, prefer living in a more individual-oriented society, but I’m not gonna make statements about how individual-oriented societies are objectively better.
However, one of the issues in the west, and I partially get the impression that the same applies to korea, is that individuality is to a greater degree permitted to the ‘most powerful’ group of people. That is, as a white man in Norway, I don’t represent anyone but myself. Nobody in Norway judges all of Norway based on my actions. Women in Norway have achieved the same – they are judged more based on their individuality, not as representatives of women. However, muslims in Norway don’t have the same freedom to the same degree – more people judge all muslims based on actions of individual muslims. My impression from Korea and interacting with Koreans (and while I obviously agree that I am no expert on Korea through visiting for one week twice, being part of the brood war community for 20 years has given me a somewhat wider understanding, at least) is that korean men in their 20s-30s are individuals with vastly different personality traits, appearances and ways of being. My (even more shallow and flawed, as I’ve had less personal interaction) understanding of korean girls is somewhat different, where they seem to be a more heterogenous group. From my outsidery persepective, it seems like one of the things korean girls are demanding is the same freedom guys have, to be judged as individuals first and women second. Then again, you seem to define korean men who support korean women in some of these cases as ‘pussies’, so I guess in your mind, korean men aren’t really free to pursue their own individual efforts either.
3: With age, I’ve become less revoluationary. Partially because I’ve come to accept that people have a hard time changing, and thus, societal progress kinda has to happen one generation at a time. So I get that you’re a liberal feminist in the view of your father (yet perhaps also a trogdolyte compared to people 20 years younger than you). But regarding the ‘best person for the job gets hired’ type of argument, that depends on equal opportunity to showcase your abilities. I find it unlikely that a gender-segregated society (or any other-segregated) can make this leap on its own, but maybe SK is almost uniqueliy meritocratic. (I can totally see how it’s more meritocratic than western countries, and how this is caused by the hyper-competitiveness that you describe (an impression I share, anyway)).
4: The primary issue with gender role setups is not necessarily that one group is oppressed and one is the oppressor. It’s that both groups are bereft of opportunities. I’m not a dad yet – but I’m delighted that when I become one, I will get to spend intimate time with my kid even during the first year so we can build a stronger relationship from the get-go. I’m really happy my male friends who make the wise choice of going into nursing (secure job prospects while doing something societally useful) can do so without being judged as 'being pussies'. To be clear, I favor an equality of opportununity-feminism (which is the case for a vast majority of actual feminists), not an equality of outcome version (although, seeing various forms of nepotism exist to various degrees, one might argue that a period of some equality of outcome is required for a future equality of opportunity to be accomplished. But this is besides the point).
I mean, Norway has had a conscription-based army for decades. But the period was shorter (1 year), people went fresh out of high school, and it was easy to dodge. Personally I went the civil service route beacuse Norway was not remotely threatened by any outside force, however we were part of some american wars of aggression that not even the tiniest iota of me could be supportive of. Other options included extending it (if you got enrolled in uni right after high school, then you’d get delayed. And then if you spent 5 years in uni, they’d just forget about you / people at that point would have apartments and real life obligations that they’d have to be compensated for if going to the army. Or if you had asthma, or peed your bed, or caught with traces of drugs, or whatever else, you wouldn’t be selected.
We’ve moved on from that now, now the army is basically just for people who want to go – and then, as long as physical requirements are met, it’s equally available to women as to men. (There are ongoing debates about whether the physical requirements should be identical for men and women – right now there is a differentiation, but fewer women are able to do the female requirements compared to how men fare on the male requirements). Either way, situations are different, and hardly comparable. But the argument that ‘you need to take part in the army to get the other benefits you crave, and you cannot take part in the army because we don’t want you to’ – that just plainly doesn’t fly with me.
I also disagree with the idea that not having to pay in social situations is really gender-preferential treatment, though. I think that’s demeaning and a consequence of women being expected to not have money on their own. I’ve read many stories of women saying that the best thing feminism brought them was the freedom from having their own money instead of ‘an allowance’. This does something to relationships, it makes them go from being transaction based (we are together because you bring A and I bring B and I want A and you want B) to being more ‘love’ (or perhaps, ‘lust’)-based. Personally, I think it’s a highly positive change.
5: I can’t speak for the feminist movement in Korea as I have not seen it. However. I have yet to see a non-feminist make even a reasonably accorate description of ‘what the feminist movement wants’, anywhere. I largely see what you do here as an extension of what I mentioned earlier – women end up being ‘representatives of women’. Is there really data saying that most self-identifying feminist women in Korea want a continuation of all chivalrious practices as well as equal pay and opportunities in the job market? Either way – I’m fine with your argument that women have to go to the army if they want equal job and pay opportunities. 21 months is significant in a hyper-competitive society, I’m sure. I’m hyper-supportive of a change in social relations meaning girls start paying for their own shit. But you can’t make the first argument followed by and guys won’t let them join the army anyway’. Puts them in an impossible situation.
6: I’m understanding of there being cultural differences, and I understand that reverting them takes time. Some you might not even want to revert. And frankly, I’m not sure I’d take the life of a korean man, from the perspective of being a norwegian man, any more than I’d take the life of a korean woman from the perspective of being a norwegian woman. I want to live a laid back and relaxing life where I’m allowed to be content with doing and having ‘enough’. I don’t want more, and I don’t want to work more than what is required to give me this.
7: I’m left with the impression that you’ve met quite some unreasonable people. I have no way of evaluating whether the ‘we want equal pay but not responsibilities’ is a position maintained by a majority of south korean feminists, but I certainly think it’s unreasonable if it is.
8: Point well made, and I agree. Socities everywhere are very complex and it’s impossible to get more than a rudimentary impression from just visiting, or even just talking. While I understand that my initial post had a judgmental element where I voice my support for the cause of korean feminists, that really wasn’t my main point. I Logic is universal, and I saw you, an intelligent man, make an illogical argument. That’s what I had a problem with. ;p
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Thank you for the lengthy and invested response!
You put into words so many little things I've observed and felt, but have been unable to describe clearly.
On an individual level, I'm a very verbal person who prefers understanding/exploring things through conversations and reading written texts. So it can be difficult sometimes when I'm with my coworkers and friends. Not that I am excluded, they're (mostly) good hearted, and more than willing to include me in 'togetherness'... But trying to explain and teach me something that is more felt than thought, expressed slyly and almost subconsciously is hard (and it ruins the mood sometimes lol).
So you can imagine how it felt reading through a quick rundown from someone older and able to empathize with both positions. And it's especially wonderful when everything's said with almost a lifetime of experience.
Thank you for your wisdom.
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3. If I had a view of a modern 20 year old Korea girl, I'd have Liquid'Drone as my new friend.
LOL
Well, thanks for your reply. This thread has been quite thought provoking. I appreciated your discussion with Liquid Drone as well.
On the ambiguity of my first post: no I was not really talking about insecurity. I was not saying I think you're insecure, nor do I think that I am insecure. I see that you are happy with who you are, and in fact I am happy with who I am. I simply say I agree with you, to reap the benefits of a group you have to harmonize with it at least a little, and if a group repulses you so much you can't harmonize with it, it's overall a disadvantage to yourself. But, I think you'll agree, if it becomes too inconvenient to believe something, you might as well "fuck off back to Korea" because you'll be happier that way, because you'll harmonize better with people there. And that point in your OP was particularly interesting, because I can easily imagine a situation you might have said something like that to some white southern gentlemen who had anti-immigration beliefs. The ploy of both agreeing with them, but saving yourself as an exception of a person who adapts to the culture you're in is hilarious, affirming their beliefs, adapting their beliefs to your identity and protecting yourself as "one of the good ones." Even though that situation may only have happened in my mind. And again to bring it back, if you didn't harmonize in Korea and you didn't harmonize in America, you would be isolated and forced to deal with people on an individual basis. Which doesn't mean not having friends, or not being liked, it just means being very bored when dealing with groups, and consequently benefits of harmony not outweighing costs to yourself. Harmony between two people always lands somewhere in between them. Harmony in a group always drifts toward the majority and that can be very inconvenient for outliers. That's all I mean by isolation. To put it another way, it is very convenient when your general feelings align well with a group, so there is no reason to fight those feelings. As you say, everyone in your family accepts the old school korean in you, so there is no tension in being who you are at least at home. I'm only contemplating what shapes people and how they think, what you've shared about how you think you've been shaped, and how that might be generalized for people of other backgrounds, and how that explains interactions between groups of people of different backgrounds. And as I understand it, that was more or less the objective of this thread, so you've done well 
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Entertaining read as always. Also respect for responding to every post in your blog. GOod luck in the hospital and get well soon!
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
Guys, I'm going into the hospital for a few days and will respond when I get out. I'm just at that age where all the bad things that were going to happen to you in your 20's because you abused your body is actually happening lol. Wish me luck ^^
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TLADT24920 Posts
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Norway28521 Posts
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 22 2018 17:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Just to be clear, I have no problems accepting that there are cultural differences, that social developments take time, that what I might perceive as oppression due to my own cultural background is not perceived as such by people from a different cultural background. I appreciate your lengthy response. Tbh, my issue with the first post was more that I disliked your style of argument (basically creating the catch 22 type of situation that I addressed) than that I disliked your expressed point of view.
But anyway, for this post, responding in accordance with your own bullet points:
1: I don't think it's possible to have a position that is not a political position about a political subject. A position of 'it doesn't need to be changed politically' is a political position. A statement like ‘I’m not trying to impose my viewpoint on society’ is very easy to maintain in a situation where society’s currently dominant viewpoint resembles your own – but this is not an apolitical point of view, it’s a political point of view agreeing with the status quo.
Well, for modern South Korea, even I am considered very conservative, and again, for me, it's not a political issue, its a cultural one. In the same way, the US interprets a lot of things in a constitutional framework, I look at from a cultural historical one, not as a political one. No law in Korea would ever cross that line to make me change my thoughts or actions within in my family or relationships. But we can agree to disagree on this one.
2: I definitely accept that Norway (and I guess most western countries) are more individual-oriented than south korea (and I guess most asian countries). In general, I’m both positive and negative towards this – I greatly value my personal freedom to express myself as an individual rather than as a representative of 34 year old Norwegian males, but I also think the west largely operates with a perverted, consumer-driven version of individuality where people are encouraged to ‘follow this basic formula to succeed in highlighting your uniqueness’ or whatever. I’m certain that I, personally, prefer living in a more individual-oriented society, but I’m not gonna make statements about how individual-oriented societies are objectively better.
However, one of the issues in the west, and I partially get the impression that the same applies to korea, is that individuality is to a greater degree permitted to the ‘most powerful’ group of people. That is, as a white man in Norway, I don’t represent anyone but myself. Nobody in Norway judges all of Norway based on my actions. Women in Norway have achieved the same – they are judged more based on their individuality, not as representatives of women. However, muslims in Norway don’t have the same freedom to the same degree – more people judge all muslims based on actions of individual muslims. My impression from Korea and interacting with Koreans (and while I obviously agree that I am no expert on Korea through visiting for one week twice, being part of the brood war community for 20 years has given me a somewhat wider understanding, at least) is that korean men in their 20s-30s are individuals with vastly different personality traits, appearances and ways of being. My (even more shallow and flawed, as I’ve had less personal interaction) understanding of korean girls is somewhat different, where they seem to be a more heterogenous group. From my outsidery persepective, it seems like one of the things korean girls are demanding is the same freedom guys have, to be judged as individuals first and women second. Then again, you seem to define korean men who support korean women in some of these cases as ‘pussies’, so I guess in your mind, korean men aren’t really free to pursue their own individual efforts either.
On the point of wealth individuals having more freedom, I agree.
On the point of younger people- about Korea- no matter how individual they may seem, our most individualistic person in Korea will still be more then collective in thinking compared to westerns -whether they realize it on not- just because we are more collective doesn't mean we do not have vastly different personality types, but that most social interactions in groups and the group priority is over that of the individual- but since we're not in a serfdom, individuals are free to join whatever group will have them.
Korean women are demanding the same freedom as men have, but, again the whole issue has been, they want the same freedoms while keep the same benefits of the previous system and do not want to take on the responsibility that comes along with equality. This part will be totally opaque to a foreigner who is meeting Korean women who want to meet a foreigner and is just dating rather than in a family or marriage situation. You don't need to take my word for it, ask other Koreans in Korea, if Korean women want equality or they just want the extra benefits of equality while still benefiting from gender roles. If you were to go on dutch pay in Gangnam with any girl on a first date, good fucking luck getting a second date.
I absolutely do not think that men who treat women with more equality are pussies. I think men who want women to have more equality so that they can have less responsibility and burden are pussies. Regardless if woman gain more equality in Korea or not, I will still be me, and if they get all the same social benefits and they marry guys who have no problem just sharing all responsibilities 50/50, that's great and if I have to do the same in a work place I will, but if I still end up wanting to pay for the ladies, and carry the heavy things, and say that I'll stay later to finish the work so the girls can get some more sleep, then I will. And if a woman criticizes me for it, then just take it as my personality trait, but if a guy says to me, let the women pay and carry and do the same work, in Korea, then i'll consider him a pussy and to get the fuck out of my face.
If you're not Korean, I don't care how the fuck you wanna be, if you say to me, 'Mightyatom, so by Korean standards am I pussy', I'll say, 'well you're not Korean, so Korean standards do not apply to you." and if you press me and say, 'well say, I am being judged by Korean standards, and I am Korean, then am I a pussy'. Then in this case, I'll say, 'if you were Korean, yes, I'd say you're a pussy' and then if you want to then get offended, I'd say, 'go fuck yourself you dumbass, what the fuck other answer are you expecting except to get offended' -I'm not saying this to you Liquid'drone, I'm just saying if a foreigner would phase it any which way, I'm not going to back down on this. I define a Korean man that way, and if you're not that way, you're a pussy. But if you're so insecure that you need my confirmation to be a man, well fuck, you were a pussy anyway.
3: With age, I’ve become less revoluationary. Partially because I’ve come to accept that people have a hard time changing, and thus, societal progress kinda has to happen one generation at a time. So I get that you’re a liberal feminist in the view of your father (yet perhaps also a trogdolyte compared to people 20 years younger than you). But regarding the ‘best person for the job gets hired’ type of argument, that depends on equal opportunity to showcase your abilities. I find it unlikely that a gender-segregated society (or any other-segregated) can make this leap on its own, but maybe SK is almost uniqueliy meritocratic. (I can totally see how it’s more meritocratic than western countries, and how this is caused by the hyper-competitiveness that you describe (an impression I share, anyway)).
You are absolutely right, the best person is likely not get hired from the job in South Korea in our gender role society. But let me put that in context. 1. The most exceptional, regardless of gender, will be hired, but they will have a harder time (women) than men in getting their job, but being exceptional is always put as the highest criteria. 2. But in this society, if the woman is only slightly better than average, because we are group work centered, and if the job had to do with external partners, then the boy may still be better than the girl at the job because he may work better in the group or may be easier to accept with the external network. But nowdays for professional companies, women at the entry level are likely to get equal chance, but if the case of upper management, unless they are exceptional or much better than average, they won't get those positions still. And of course in the case of downsizing the man will usually keep their job over the woman because the man is usually the primary breadwinner. Now you can say its all unfair, but it is practical in our current society. But I won't deny that in this case, it is unfair and your point is right, even in taken into context.
BUT, this is exactly this issue the women want to get equality for, and no household gender roles for responsibility. So from a westen's perspective, this is good, except that if you ask a westerner what benefits to women get in Korea, they are unlikely to name one because they don't know Korean society well enough and some Korean women are so ignorant of greater society that they take their own gender role benefits for granted.
BUT 100% for sure, men, even with the greater risk of death, work, financial burden, have much greater freedom and independence. Now if you're from a lower socio-economic class, it can be absolute hell for women as men abuse their power, if you're from a mid to high socio-economic class then the burden for men is fairly severe, meaning we will live a lot less longer than our wives while we take on a financial burden that forces us to work without stop until we basically die. BUT, 100% the male benefits are still enormous for the higher socio-economic class, and I am sure that there is no feminist movement among the higher socio-economic class families.
Do I see this as repression? At my socio-economic class, it is somewhat balanced, its not equal benefits across the board, but it evens out. But for lower socio-economic class, I agree, its a fucking shit deal for women in Korea. That being said, if those women who were from classes married into a higher class, they wouldn't have the same feeling of repression. Now of course, all countries have abuse in the lower socio-economic classes, but I wont' deny that in Korea because of gender roles, it would be worse. But in my view, I also don't consider a Korean guy who doesn't work hard and hits his wife a man, they don't get to be considered to be human even.
4: The primary issue with gender role setups is not necessarily that one group is oppressed and one is the oppressor. It’s that both groups are bereft of opportunities. I’m not a dad yet – but I’m delighted that when I become one, I will get to spend intimate time with my kid even during the first year so we can build a stronger relationship from the get-go. I’m really happy my male friends who make the wise choice of going into nursing (secure job prospects while doing something societally useful) can do so without being judged as 'being pussies'. To be clear, I favor an equality of opportununity-feminism (which is the case for a vast majority of actual feminists), not an equality of outcome version (although, seeing various forms of nepotism exist to various degrees, one might argue that a period of some equality of outcome is required for a future equality of opportunity to be accomplished. But this is besides the point).
As an aside:
I think in non gender role countries, not being macho or outwardly manly is what defines a pussy. They way I am using the word pussy, it not under that definition. It is used to denote a guy who does not take the appropriate responsibility and ultimate burden for his family and friends. It has nothing to do with their job etc.
This is where so much misunderstanding happens with western countries who think they understand Korean society's gender roles as manly and womanly whereas its different responsibilities. I would never consider a man would be defined by their job as a pussy or not, a man who takes on nursing because of passion and gentle heart is in fact courageous to enter into a female dominated field and most of us in Korea would not think that man is a pussy, rather he must have some talent for it.
In the same way, a pro gamer in the west would have been considered a geek or nerd,
but in Korea we could appreciate the dedication, skill and intelligence involved and so we did not have these social stigmas like they did in the west, where all of these videos originated from! This comes down to what is manilness in Korea vs the west.
Man in Korea: take responsibility all the way for those he is responsible for and doesn't complain about it.
If you were a super cool body macho actor guy who got divorced and didn't pay child support, even if you could kick 10 guy's asses at the same time, in Korea, you'd be a pussy.
If you complained the work was too much and decided that life was unfair and because of that did not participate in the group work and just left the group, you'd be a pussy.
My idea of of why you're a pussy or not has nothing to do with acting like a real man, but being a real man through whatever responsibility you take. So when men want less responsibility in our Korean society because its too much of burden for them, they are by definition pussies. If they are best drag queen actor in Korea and work 18 hrs a day and make a success for their drag queen performance group, that man is a man, not pussy, even if he is a drag queen.
I mean, Norway has had a conscription-based army for decades. But the period was shorter (1 year), people went fresh out of high school, and it was easy to dodge. Personally I went the civil service route beacuse Norway was not remotely threatened by any outside force, however we were part of some american wars of aggression that not even the tiniest iota of me could be supportive of. Other options included extending it (if you got enrolled in uni right after high school, then you’d get delayed. And then if you spent 5 years in uni, they’d just forget about you / people at that point would have apartments and real life obligations that they’d have to be compensated for if going to the army. Or if you had asthma, or peed your bed, or caught with traces of drugs, or whatever else, you wouldn’t be selected.
We’ve moved on from that now, now the army is basically just for people who want to go – and then, as long as physical requirements are met, it’s equally available to women as to men. (There are ongoing debates about whether the physical requirements should be identical for men and women – right now there is a differentiation, but fewer women are able to do the female requirements compared to how men fare on the male requirements). Either way, situations are different, and hardly comparable. But the argument that ‘you need to take part in the army to get the other benefits you crave, and you cannot take part in the army because we don’t want you to’ – that just plainly doesn’t fly with me.
I also disagree with the idea that not having to pay in social situations is really gender-preferential treatment, though. I think that’s demeaning and a consequence of women being expected to not have money on their own. I’ve read many stories of women saying that the best thing feminism brought them was the freedom from having their own money instead of ‘an allowance’. This does something to relationships, it makes them go from being transaction based (we are together because you bring A and I bring B and I want A and you want B) to being more ‘love’ (or perhaps, ‘lust’)-based. Personally, I think it’s a highly positive change.
In this case, you're totally off in the Korean context.
you GO TO JAIL when you draft dodge in Korea
you can get EXILED in Korea if you fuck around with you citizenship to evade the draft
its at least 2 years,
So you need to fucking go, it isn't option, so take that as the basis for your criticism here, rather than the Norway context which is completely inapplicable in Korea.
So what doesn't fly with you, by taking a Norwegian context as to what happens in Korea, is absolutely wrong.
It is a major point of going to army when women want to have the same entry wage for jobs when they are 2 years younger and didn't have to go to army and complain why should the guy have his 2 years of army service count as experience. Then theses bitches can enroll in the army too, take 2 years off and get their experience and go in 2 years older than their girl pals and get the same entry wage as the guys. No one would stop them. But these bitches say, "why should they go the army, its completely irrelevant to the argument of why they should have the same wage, and plus, WE DON'T WANT TO GO, IT'S STUPID, why should we waste our time that: But its totally ok for men to? Are you fucking kidding me that some of these women are living in lala land, and in this context if you agree that this army thing isn't a significant issue, then point blank, you're a moron too and should stay in Norway. I'm not saying that as a person attack, I'm just saying how ignorant it is for you to say that by taking the Norway context and applying it in Korea and if you take the Korean context and can't see how valid the point is, then fuck, what else can I say, but that you'd be a moron (just to make my point ^^ hehe).
As for the Korean women not having to pay thing, its not that they don't have money, Korean women in corporate make a comparable amount, but they still would rather not pay. But in the case of marriage, well that is different if the man can't pay because they can't. So then its a case of double income etc, but to give you an example. When I worked in the Korean gov't, there was girl who was 2 years younger than me but made more than me and we had the same position, but because I was older, whenever we went out for coffee or drinks, I always paid out of my own salary and she never paid once. That didn't bother me, until one day, she complained she wasn't being treated as well as me and while I was working about 20%-30% more hours a week than her, and then I told her I had a lower salary than her, - I knew the salary was lower because the staff told me because they wanted to be clear that I had a lower salary and they didn't want it to be an issue in the future, and I said, and when have I ever asked you pay for anything in the 2 years we have been working together, so wtf. They don't equate that kind of shit into equality - whereas in the west, paying for girl is used to manipulate them as a burden, in Korea, its not used for that as it is a standard of our society. If a guy was to ask a girl to pay or a 'feminist' they would all complain and say shit behind his back that he is a cheap motherfucker who only cares about money. No shit.
5: I can’t speak for the feminist movement in Korea as I have not seen it. However. I have yet to see a non-feminist make even a reasonably accorate description of ‘what the feminist movement wants’, anywhere. I largely see what you do here as an extension of what I mentioned earlier – women end up being ‘representatives of women’. Is there really data saying that most self-identifying feminist women in Korea want a continuation of all chivalrious practices as well as equal pay and opportunities in the job market? Either way – I’m fine with your argument that women have to go to the army if they want equal job and pay opportunities. 21 months is significant in a hyper-competitive society, I’m sure. I’m hyper-supportive of a change in social relations meaning girls start paying for their own shit. But you can’t make the first argument followed by and guys won’t let them join the army anyway’. Puts them in an impossible situation.
LOL, ok I take back the moron bit because obviously you are not a moron, but in my defense point 4 reads that way! LOL.
But again, guys don't 'not let girls join the army' but, we don't bring it up when their equality movements fail because they obviously miss the major point of this. So, its not really our fault that these feminists are generally stupid to miss this point. And since we really accept/happy with the system, why would we go out of our way to fuck it up, on their behalf? But to be clear, if Korean women wanted to be equally conscripted we couldn't stop them. And then as far as the guys who actually want and petition the government to include women in the mandatory conscription, well, these pussies should be exiled from our country.
6: I’m understanding of there being cultural differences, and I understand that reverting them takes time. Some you might not even want to revert. And frankly, I’m not sure I’d take the life of a korean man, from the perspective of being a norwegian man, any more than I’d take the life of a korean woman from the perspective of being a norwegian woman. I want to live a laid back and relaxing life where I’m allowed to be content with doing and having ‘enough’. I don’t want more, and I don’t want to work more than what is required to give me this.
This is fair, but for all the burden, my cultural identity is my cultural identity. And again, I'm most comfortable in Swiss or Texas or with South African Afrikans which are 3 areas which may seem discriminatory, but on a cultural man side, fits with me.
But to be honest, I love Korea as is. If I could pause it at 2002 I would have. Nowadays, like I mentioned, I'm considered a dinosaur in Korea as well.
7: I’m left with the impression that you’ve met quite some unreasonable people. I have no way of evaluating whether the ‘we want equal pay but not responsibilities’ is a position maintained by a majority of south korean feminists, but I certainly think it’s unreasonable if it is.
Well it is and Koreans, we're all fucking irrational people. Our national character is irrational. LOL. We are extreme in our emotions and interactions.
8: Point well made, and I agree. Socities everywhere are very complex and it’s impossible to get more than a rudimentary impression from just visiting, or even just talking. While I understand that my initial post had a judgmental element where I voice my support for the cause of korean feminists, that really wasn’t my main point. I Logic is universal, and I saw you, an intelligent man, make an illogical argument. That’s what I had a problem with. ;p
No worries, hehe, and in terms of the illogical, I think you did jump the gun a bit there, but lets be honest, a guy like me with my world view is gonna look like an irrational 1940's guy in any context when it comes to gender/male identity, so how am I not going to get a bit flamed here even if I have some logic behind it. But thanks for the write up, appreciated it.
I always feel grounded when I spend time to reply/write on TL. It's kind of my therapy from life.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 23 2018 01:46 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
Thank you for the lengthy and invested response!
You put into words so many little things I've observed and felt, but have been unable to describe clearly.
On an individual level, I'm a very verbal person who prefers understanding/exploring things through conversations and reading written texts. So it can be difficult sometimes when I'm with my coworkers and friends. Not that I am excluded, they're (mostly) good hearted, and more than willing to include me in 'togetherness'... But trying to explain and teach me something that is more felt than thought, expressed slyly and almost subconsciously is hard (and it ruins the mood sometimes lol).
So you can imagine how it felt reading through a quick rundown from someone older and able to empathize with both positions. And it's especially wonderful when everything's said with almost a lifetime of experience.
Thank you for your wisdom.
^^, there is this cartoon on Korean character, drawn by a very famous Korean cartoonist, translated to english, published about 15 years ago, don't know exactly when and I can't find it right now, but if you can find it, then buy it, it will help you so much, but again, it's all there, just bit of explanation and I think you should be able to take it the rest of the way. ^^
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 23 2018 02:04 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +3. If I had a view of a modern 20 year old Korea girl, I'd have Liquid'Drone as my new friend. LOL Well, thanks for your reply. This thread has been quite thought provoking. I appreciated your discussion with Liquid Drone as well. On the ambiguity of my first post: no I was not really talking about insecurity. I was not saying I think you're insecure, nor do I think that I am insecure. I see that you are happy with who you are, and in fact I am happy with who I am. I simply say I agree with you, to reap the benefits of a group you have to harmonize with it at least a little, and if a group repulses you so much you can't harmonize with it, it's overall a disadvantage to yourself. But, I think you'll agree, if it becomes too inconvenient to believe something, you might as well "fuck off back to Korea" because you'll be happier that way, because you'll harmonize better with people there. And that point in your OP was particularly interesting, because I can easily imagine a situation you might have said something like that to some white southern gentlemen who had anti-immigration beliefs. The ploy of both agreeing with them, but saving yourself as an exception of a person who adapts to the culture you're in is hilarious, affirming their beliefs, adapting their beliefs to your identity and protecting yourself as "one of the good ones." Even though that situation may only have happened in my mind. And again to bring it back, if you didn't harmonize in Korea and you didn't harmonize in America, you would be isolated and forced to deal with people on an individual basis. Which doesn't mean not having friends, or not being liked, it just means being very bored when dealing with groups, and consequently benefits of harmony not outweighing costs to yourself. Harmony between two people always lands somewhere in between them. Harmony in a group always drifts toward the majority and that can be very inconvenient for outliers. That's all I mean by isolation. To put it another way, it is very convenient when your general feelings align well with a group, so there is no reason to fight those feelings. As you say, everyone in your family accepts the old school korean in you, so there is no tension in being who you are at least at home. I'm only contemplating what shapes people and how they think, what you've shared about how you think you've been shaped, and how that might be generalized for people of other backgrounds, and how that explains interactions between groups of people of different backgrounds. And as I understand it, that was more or less the objective of this thread, so you've done well
great reply and really well articulated, and i agree and yes, that thing with the a southern gent has happens more times that I can count, guilty as charged lol, but again, you need to be authentic or else this is just being a fake unbearable situation, and I really appreciate your rely as well because its been a long time since I've gone hardcore on TL and it really does keep me a sharp. But I fully get what your position and the encouragement, ^^
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 23 2018 03:24 RvB wrote:
Entertaining read as always. Also respect for responding to every post in your blog. GOod luck in the hospital and get well soon!
Thanks, and the hospital visit was both good and bad, but i'll make a post on it. ^^ Getting well soon has become my number 1 priority as of the last 48 hrs.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
Guys,
about my hospital visit.
Good news, no major stomach issues and only one polyp in the intestine at 4mm,
it was removed.
Bad news, I got some type of liver disease and they are doing the assessment and treatment plan now.
My liver is huge, I'm like a goose now, and my spleen is enlarged (which is always serious) and my gallbladder inflamed, and I have gallstones.
In 5 days I get my treatment plan and exact outline of how bad or not bad it is.
But its definitely in the disease stage, early stage of it, I am hoping, but anyway in the last 48 hrs, I've actually made the real mental commitment to:
-stop drinking completely
-stop sweet drinks
-decrease rice by 90%
-drink more water
-exercise for 20 mins every day.
And get my weight down from my current 132kg to 98kg as a goal.
But I can't really eat much anyways because my gallbladder hurts like a fucker and I get pin pain in my stomach after I eat, but to actually have the abuse really affect my organs, I'm kinda in shock that I thought I'd still come out with clean bill of health, but its a good wake up call,
I really feel the kiss of death on this, and it was anything sweet.
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On July 22 2018 17:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
but maybe SK is almost uniqueliy meritocratic. (I can totally see how it’s more meritocratic than western countries, and how this is caused by the hyper-competitiveness that you describe (an impression I share, anyway)).
Is this true though? SK is highly hierarchical and I doubt that would lend it self to a good meritocratie, for example I knew a PhD that still was only allowed to do stuff that his non academic, non expert manager told him. Although that is just an anecdote.
I wish you all the best MA, get better soon!
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putting women under 25 into the front lines of a war makes zero sense.
if 80% of all the men die in a war and 0% of the women die ... your society can easily move forward after the war is over. you can easily repopulate the country. on the other, hand if 80% of the women die then your society will have a lower population for a long long time.
men are more replacable than women.
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On July 25 2018 20:04 MightyAtom wrote:
Guys,
about my hospital visit.
Good news, no major stomach issues and only one polyp in the intestine at 4mm,
it was removed.
Bad news, I got some type of liver disease and they are doing the assessment and treatment plan now.
My liver is huge, I'm like a goose now, and my spleen is enlarged (which is always serious) and my gallbladder inflamed, and I have gallstones.
In 5 days I get my treatment plan and exact outline of how bad or not bad it is.
But its definitely in the disease stage, early stage of it, I am hoping, but anyway in the last 48 hrs, I've actually made the real mental commitment to:
-stop drinking completely
-stop sweet drinks
-decrease rice by 90%
-drink more water
-exercise for 20 mins every day.
And get my weight down from my current 132kg to 98kg as a goal.
But I can't really eat much anyways because my gallbladder hurts like a fucker and I get pin pain in my stomach after I eat, but to actually have the abuse really affect my organs, I'm kinda in shock that I thought I'd still come out with clean bill of health, but its a good wake up call,
I really feel the kiss of death on this, and it was anything sweet.
I remember reading a blog post of your about how you tried judo again as an old man and the master said you clearly 'lost it'.
From this description it looks like your health issues should be a real big kick in the ass.
If you're as old school as you say you are then you'll pull it off. My grandparents all quit smoking and drinking basically immediately after their doctors told them they had health issues. Something in the older generation made tougher people.
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EPT
