EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 383
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
EvanC
Canada130 Posts
| ||
|
funnybananaman
United States830 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
I feel kinda stretched thin as terran and it's like a race against the clock in TvP. Toss is building up a gigantic force and taking expos but I also have to defend against drops and dts. Yeah my macro is my #1 problem and through practice it will get better, but can someone help me understand the matchup better by simplifying things? I think I am trying to do too much and I'm just not at that level yet. Help a noob terran out please. | ||
|
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
every modern, non-allin build is going to aim for 3base 2-1. there are three basic variants after expanding: fast port > arm > 3rd, fast arm > 3rd, or timing push (generally delayed 2fac) > arm and 3rd. all variants get arm and 3rd ASAP after their core buildings in general you shouldn't be pushing until you hit 2-1 with a good tank count. harassing with vults, dropships is good so long as you don't lose too much army (particularly tanks) doing so. timing pushes are fine but you need to deal enough damage to offset the delay to your 2-1 timing and (likely) delayed 3rd. during 2-1 timing fights siege your tanks and hit hold pos on vults/gols and focus on landing emps. target shuttles/arbs with gols. once zeals are wiped you can start mashing down mines to eat goon fire. if your vult count is cut down (will generally happen) do not advance until after you bring up reinforcements make sure you keep up in macro. expand as you push out | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
At the lower level (at least where I'm in) I consider positioning to be the most important factor in such battles. Neither me or my opponents have sufficiently good macro to be a big factor before the first big push and it's easy to get flustered when casting emp/stasis, respectively. If you win such engagements consistently, work on macro and expanding behind pushes, because it's easy to lose an attrition war vs a 5+ base protoss when you have trouble defending your 4th/5th from counters, even though your mech ball has won several engagements. That's how I lose most of my games, at least. This is the advice from a chobo - where I usually screw up. Good players might give you advice how they don't screw up. | ||
|
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
| ||
|
funnybananaman
United States830 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
Here is a more specific question about my problem and misunderstanding with TvP. Let us say that the Protoss is going 2 gate into FE. So he has many goons pushing my front. So I get 2 tanks and siege mode to secure my base. After my base is secure with siege tanks, I get an engi to ward off DTs and Shuttles. So I am safe at this point. However, I feel blind as hell and I don't know what to do other than add facs and make tanks. In PvZ, I am constantly scouting and reacting to what Z is trying to do. Looking for expos, seeing if he went muta or hydra, etc. But in TvP, once those goons are running around, I feel like I am trapped. 1. Is there something else I could be doing to be more active during this mid game period? 2. Is it normal to stop making tanks after you are safe from the first poking goons and mass vultures first? Or should I keep making tanks and slowly creep forward from my natural and towards my third? 3. With my first scouting vulture, what should I do and look for? When I can get a pack of vultures free, what should be the most important thing and how do I use them? 4. What do I do if the Protoss is not taking a third (or very slow third)? How should I react? 5. If the Protoss has taken a fast third, what makes it okay for me to attack or not to attack? What factors? 6. If the Protoss is good, it's really hard to do anything with a pack of vults. 2 goons can hold a ramp forever and they make it so that I can't get any harass with the vults. So at this point, how do I force the issue or use them in a different manner? | ||
|
shadowofcollosus
2 Posts
For example in this game he sees no spire mass hydra, so goes CC w/ siege. Seems very far behind because of the telepathed 2 port initially. + Show Spoiler + vs 2 hat muta it seems like making some marines at home for the inital 6 + scourge, then eventually ebay for turrets and slowly add up to 3 rax. The cc comes very late. Contains the z and wins with a strong drop plus all the drone damage done earlier. + Show Spoiler + This is usually how my games go getting overrun by muta, what's the critical mistake here? Not enough drone damage? That's what it seems like to me. Also he didnt make marines vs the 2h he went right for turrets. + Show Spoiler + | ||
|
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
On April 20 2018 17:34 Golgotha wrote: thank you bros, I didn't realize that the 2-1 timing is the norm where all the standard openers converge. I will keep that in mind and work towards this 2-1 timing goal. Here is a more specific question about my problem and misunderstanding with TvP. Let us say that the Protoss is going 2 gate into FE. So he has many goons pushing my front. So I get 2 tanks and siege mode to secure my base. After my base is secure with siege tanks, I get an engi to ward off DTs and Shuttles. So I am safe at this point. However, I feel blind as hell and I don't know what to do other than add facs and make tanks. In PvZ, I am constantly scouting and reacting to what Z is trying to do. Looking for expos, seeing if he went muta or hydra, etc. But in TvP, once those goons are running around, I feel like I am trapped. 1. Is there something else I could be doing to be more active during this mid game period? 2. Is it normal to stop making tanks after you are safe from the first poking goons and mass vultures first? Or should I keep making tanks and slowly creep forward from my natural and towards my third? 3. With my first scouting vulture, what should I do and look for? When I can get a pack of vultures free, what should be the most important thing and how do I use them? 4. What do I do if the Protoss is not taking a third (or very slow third)? How should I react? 5. If the Protoss has taken a fast third, what makes it okay for me to attack or not to attack? What factors? 6. If the Protoss is good, it's really hard to do anything with a pack of vults. 2 goons can hold a ramp forever and they make it so that I can't get any harass with the vults. So at this point, how do I force the issue or use them in a different manner? 1. vults/dropships. just lay mines and scout for 3rd/4th. mines are very, very annoying to deal with 2. yes, though this depends on playstyle. basically in order to get a 3rd either you need to brute force it via raw tank count or draw goons back via vults 3. mine up bases and check for 3rd/4th. poke main if you want 4. simcity everything. work toward getting a 3rd base but make sure your base is very secure 5. protoss econ. 2gate double expand leaves a timing window where you can 2~4 fac them. 1gate nex into 3gate or reaver is very hard to punish, though delayed 2fac can work. reavers in particular are very hard to punish unless the reaver dies for nothing. 6. if goons are at home they aren't at your base. just ball up to 3base 2-1 unless P is being incredibly greedy | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
WGT-Baal
France3300 Posts
On April 23 2018 19:51 Golgotha wrote: Was watching asl with an old old fan of brood war. He hasn't watched pro matches for over five years. He was surprised it was still alive. He confidently told me something he noticed. He said that the skill of players has fallen quite a bit. Is this true or is this incorrect? He doesn't mean strategy. He is saying that the micro and control is worse than back then. Is he looking through rose colored glasses or is he actually correct? I always thought skill had increased. That flash was even better now than before. Perhaps I am mistaken. It s hard to say. First the new maps are a little strange so it might look different just due to that. Rain was a bit careless losing the shuttle/reaver vs shuttle on 3worlds but it happened before. May be your friend only has selective memories of flash/jd/bisu/stork/fanta/jangbi. I remember watching "i m gonna fail spectacularly" jaehoon or "how do you even win a tvp" light before 2011 and it was the same. Dont get me started on cj.hydra Without the teamhouses, preparation is a little less widespread and it shows sometimes, but larva for instance is pretty solid and hero still makes amazing moves. Overall it s about the same, i think. Nostalgia has this effect. | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On April 23 2018 21:54 WGT-Baal wrote: It s hard to say. First the new maps are a little strange so it might look different just due to that. Rain was a bit careless losing the shuttle/reaver vs shuttle on 3worlds but it happened before. May be your friend only has selective memories of flash/jd/bisu/stork/fanta/jangbi. I remember watching "i m gonna fail spectacularly" jaehoon or "how do you even win a tvp" light before 2011 and it was the same. Dont get me started on cj.hydra Without the teamhouses, preparation is a little less widespread and it shows sometimes, but larva for instance is pretty solid and hero still makes amazing moves. Overall it s about the same, i think. Nostalgia has this effect. Yeah he is a Korean fan from the days of boxer and iloveoov. Baal, what do you think about flash? Has he gotten better or did he hit peak awhile back? Flash doesn't practice as much as he did in the team house. So didnt his skill drop? | ||
|
ajmbek
Italy459 Posts
On April 23 2018 19:51 Golgotha wrote: Was watching asl with an old old fan of brood war. He hasn't watched pro matches for over five years. He was surprised it was still alive. He confidently told me something he noticed. He said that the skill of players has fallen quite a bit. Is this true or is this incorrect? He doesn't mean strategy. He is saying that the micro and control is worse than back then. Is he looking through rose colored glasses or is he actually correct? I always thought skill had increased. That flash was even better now than before. Perhaps I am mistaken. I think he is true. SCR 2018 < SC:BW 2008-2011 | ||
|
kogeT
Poland2023 Posts
| ||
|
Qikz
United Kingdom12021 Posts
On April 25 2018 22:33 kogeT wrote: Flash said that skill of some players have significantly increased while others decreased. He himself thinks that he has improved, def not got worst. FlaSh has 100% got better. He's a complete beast now. | ||
|
kogeT
Poland2023 Posts
| ||
|
LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
| ||
|
WGT-Baal
France3300 Posts
On April 26 2018 20:36 LemOn wrote: How is BW doing in relation to SC2 in terms of popularity/player base in Korea? http://gametrics.com/rank/Rank02.aspx For some reason I cant display the whole month but for yesterday it gives: Starcraft at 2.52%, ranked 6th (PUBG 1st with nearly 40%, then LoL with a bit under 25%). SC2 is not in the top ten. Evolution of BW: http://gametrics.com/gameinfo/gameinfo01.aspx?gamename=스타크래프트 (the yellow curve is the rank, so oscillating between 6th and 7th, the blue one is the number of user (or games, not entirely sure it s in the 100k range) compare with sc2: http://gametrics.com/gameinfo/gameinfo01.aspx?gamename=스타크래프트2 rank: between 15th and 20th, user(or games, again my apologies): between 20k and 30k so 5 times less for the period of last week. Note this is only an image for a given week, and it doesnt include the respective popularity on twitch/afreeca/etc... I am giving you this data (easily available on line though) in good faith, not to be used to start any sort of flaming. | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
1. At what point in a TvP do you say, "okay I need scan. Time to add academy." Sometimes I go so long without it since I feel safe enough with turrets. But I can see how dramatically it helps my game. Knowing where the enemy army is like hacking. 2. With the first two scans, what am I looking for? What tips you off on what the toss is up to so you can react accordingly? In TvZ, you look for Muta timing or lurker bust. Then I know if I need bunker or turrets. In TvP, I see he has robo and many gates, but I feel like that doesn't really change what I am doing. I mean I already have turrets and tanks. I'd like to learn how to better use the info I get from my TvP scans. Edit: my post count is funny. | ||
| ||
