EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 381
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CaffeineFree-_-
United States712 Posts
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funnybananaman
United States830 Posts
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
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Navane
Netherlands2737 Posts
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CaffeineFree-_-
United States712 Posts
On April 03 2018 15:06 Navane wrote: They have a seperate remastered balance section though; check it out: https://pinup.com/r1NYt5lsM I missed shit like this. Now i just need to find rhose old lecaf comic strips | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
Zerg and Terran seem very different. In ZvT, you have to follow a BO to quickly get the 9 mutas. And Terran is even more so, very long BOs for TvZ and TvP. With Toss I can play without a strict build order (just the opener), all I really do is keep in mind to get certain tech as the game goes on. Like +1 air, +1 weapons, speedlots, storm, observer, etc. With Toss, I don't look at my supply and think, "at X supply, I need X tech." A bit, but not so much. Is it okay for me to play T and Z like this? Without following a strict build order? For example if you could simplify the important tech you need and their general order in a TvZ, would you be fine? Or does the 5 rax +1 need a strict BO to properly learn TvZ? How about for TvP? Actually, in ZvT, I do kinda freestyle it after the mutas. My timing for hive changes depending on the game. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
of course you have react and adjust your play depending on the game, but doing so with an optimized build order variation is better than winging it. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On April 04 2018 14:36 Bakuryu wrote: it is okay for you to play this until you hit a strong enough enemy whose timings are so good, that not hitting your build order timings will put you behind and eventually lose the game. of course you have react and adjust your play depending on the game, but doing so with an optimized build order variation is better than winging it. Thanks Bakuryu. Could you shore up my gameplan in ZvP? I have not memorized a BO for ZvP, just a regular 3 hatch opener. But this what I have planned so that I have some semblance of a BO and keeps me on track: 1. Open 3 hatch and use 1st 100 gas to get lair asap. 2. Make lings according to zealot pressure, drones when safe. 3. Spire asap and get scourge. 4. get 4th and 5th hatch. 5. start sim city, upgrades, and hydralisks. 6. Survive the mass speedlot push with any means necessary. 7. Get to hive and freestyle it. I know this is really barebones and a bit messy, but this has actually helped me far more than trying to strictly follow a BO. I got this from Day9's advice from his 'Let's learn SC'. He said that instead of following a strict BO, it was better to understand how a matchup plays out and generally flows. This is also similar to the advice you gave me many years ago regarding ZvP, very helpful and I highly suggest this approach to newcomers. My PvZ has gotten much better since I am not a BO robot, and I can adjust accordingly at any time. I'd like to hear from more Zs and Ts about a guideline that helps you in your games. Not a BO, just a general structure that helps take you to the late game. For fun here is my Protoss gameplan: 1. Open FE forge or Gateway expand depending on the map. Don't die to ling run-by. 2. Get sair asap. 3. Then get legs asap with +1 air and +1 weapons. 4. Mass gates and get ready to push with +1 speedlots. 5. Get Archives after enough zealots. 6. Get robo when you see mass hydra. 7. Try to kill the Z with speedlots and storm. If not, take a third. 8. Lurkers are out, start massing goons and storm. 9. If I am lucky and make it this far, frustrate myself with shuttle-reaver. Of course there are many details that are not written down here (like when to cannon, how to wall, when to scout, when to poke with slow zealots, etc.) But those things come with playing the game and this list is simply to make sure I am on track. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
having a game plan until lategame is really good. adjusting to your enemy based on situation is really good. following build orders is really good. there always seemed to be a misconception about build orders among the newcomers and i never liked how Day9 addressed that in the vods i remember from him. following BOs is not bad. "Strictly" following a BO in a wrong situation is bad. following BOs does not mean that you dont react to your opponent. a (good) build order is a highly optimized way to play the game in certain situations. This optimization will lead to specific timings (like 10s attack timing window) which you can only hit using that build order. build orders enable you repeatability on your side, making it way easier to learn the required actions because they "always" happen at the exact same time. If the current executed build order (FFE +1 corsair +1 2 gate speedzeal) is up against something that needs adjustment (3 hatch hydra), you can play a build order variation (add cannons while still going corsair first) or you change your build order completely (responding with +1 4 gate speedzeal). out of all the races/matchups, Zerg players in ZvP are the people most lacking good build orders, or build orders at all.(around C/C+ level). those zergs are lacking lots of timings and are somehow producing out of 4-5 hatches, which is still enough to keep up with similar skill level protoss player, because those protoss players are also lacking macro/timings beyond the 1st attack. the key point about all of this is Timings. you can have extremly good macro and extremly good micro, but if you have no timing you will always be fighting against more units of the enemy than normal which will always give you unfavorable battles. And especially as T/P against Z, not hitting Timings is even more brutal, as Z can easily get more drones/units quickly. in PvZ if your attack is late by "only" 14 seconds, zerg (5 hatch hydra) will have 5 more larva to make units and he will have lets say 20 hydras instead of 15 hydras. the difference is so big, that zerg would not need to add 1 sunken per entrance, and instead can use this money for faster 6th hatch while easily defending your attack. (this was mostly attack Timings, but it also applies to defensive Timings, where you get the defense right when you need it and not, for example, randomly building cannons too early in fear of vulture harass) | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On April 05 2018 02:53 Bakuryu wrote: understanding how the matchup play out is really good. having a game plan until lategame is really good. adjusting to your enemy based on situation is really good. following build orders is really good. there always seemed to be a misconception about build orders among the newcomers and i never liked how Day9 addressed that in the vods i remember from him. following BOs is not bad. "Strictly" following a BO in a wrong situation is bad. following BOs does not mean that you dont react to your opponent. a (good) build order is a highly optimized way to play the game in certain situations. This optimization will lead to specific timings (like 10s attack timing window) which you can only hit using that build order. build orders enable you repeatability on your side, making it way easier to learn the required actions because they "always" happen at the exact same time. If the current executed build order (FFE +1 corsair +1 2 gate speedzeal) is up against something that needs adjustment (3 hatch hydra), you can play a build order variation (add cannons while still going corsair first) or you change your build order completely (responding with +1 4 gate speedzeal). out of all the races/matchups, Zerg players in ZvP are the people most lacking good build orders, or build orders at all.(around C/C+ level). those zergs are lacking lots of timings and are somehow producing out of 4-5 hatches, which is still enough to keep up with similar skill level protoss player, because those protoss players are also lacking macro/timings beyond the 1st attack. the key point about all of this is Timings. you can have extremly good macro and extremly good micro, but if you have no timing you will always be fighting against more units of the enemy than normal which will always give you unfavorable battles. And especially as T/P against Z, not hitting Timings is even more brutal, as Z can easily get more drones/units quickly. in PvZ if your attack is late by "only" 14 seconds, zerg (5 hatch hydra) will have 5 more larva to make units and he will have lets say 20 hydras instead of 15 hydras. the difference is so big, that zerg would not need to add 1 sunken per entrance, and instead can use this money for faster 6th hatch while easily defending your attack. (this was mostly attack Timings, but it also applies to defensive Timings, where you get the defense right when you need it and not, for example, randomly building cannons too early in fear of vulture harass) Thanks Bakuryu. 100% agree with you regarding the importance of BOs. Your opponent will constantly have an edge if your BO is sloppy and all over the place. Great example of Zerg having 5 more larva if Toss is just 15 seconds late. That larva is the difference between zealots running over a base or being stopped cold. But something that has tremendously helped me is first learning why a certain BO works and why the steps are so and so. Basically it's learning the stages of a matchup and having a general idea of what you should have during each stage of the game. Once I had a a gameplan of how Toss should react and the order in which I make units and buildings, I could then fine tuning as I had more practice games under my belt. I chose this method playing because it was a helluva lot easier than memorizing a BO and expedited my understanding of the matchup. That's why I found Day9's videos so helpful, he tells us not to worry about building the supply at 14 or 15, or having 20 marines at the 6 minute mark, instead he gives us an overall picture of where you should be at each phase of the game. I am trying to do this now with Terran and I am having trouble. Here is my TvZ +1 5 rax gameplan that sets me up for late game: 1. Open 1 Rax FE. 2. Constantly make marines out of one rax until you are safe from zergling aggression. 3. Once you are safe, get gas, then engine bay, and then aca. 4. Once aca is down, start adding rax to have a total of 5. 5. Make turrets as needed after you scan the zerg base. 6. Keep making marines and medics and try to deny the third. 7. Get factory and double starport as soon as possible. How is this for a basic game plan? I have most of the BO memorized, this is just something that further aids my memory. Can someone help me with TvP? Flash's 200/200 push build is awesome but it's quite long. Anyway you guys simplify it? I'd love to use it as a starting point. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3323 Posts
On April 06 2018 18:39 Golgotha wrote: Thanks Bakuryu. 100% agree with you regarding the importance of BOs. Your opponent will constantly have an edge if your BO is sloppy and all over the place. Great example of Zerg having 5 more larva if Toss is just 15 seconds late. That larva is the difference between zealots running over a base or being stopped cold. But something that has tremendously helped me is first learning why a certain BO works and why the steps are so and so. Basically it's learning the stages of a matchup and having a general idea of what you should have during each stage of the game. Once I had a a gameplan of how Toss should react and the order in which I make units and buildings, I could then fine tuning as I had more practice games under my belt. I chose this method playing because it was a helluva lot easier than memorizing a BO and expedited my understanding of the matchup. That's why I found Day9's videos so helpful, he tells us not to worry about building the supply at 14 or 15, or having 20 marines at the 6 minute mark, instead he gives us an overall picture of where you should be at each phase of the game. I am trying to do this now with Terran and I am having trouble. Here is my TvZ +1 5 rax gameplan that sets me up for late game: 1. Open 1 Rax FE. 2. Constantly make marines out of one rax until you are safe from zergling aggression. 3. Once you are safe, get gas, then engine bay, and then aca. 4. Once aca is down, start adding rax to have a total of 5. 5. Make turrets as needed after you scan the zerg base. 6. Keep making marines and medics and try to deny the third. 7. Get factory and double starport as soon as possible. How is this for a basic game plan? I have most of the BO memorized, this is just something that further aids my memory. Can someone help me with TvP? Flash's 200/200 push build is awesome but it's quite long. Anyway you guys simplify it? I'd love to use it as a starting point. While this doesnt fully answer your question Light plays quite aggressively and seems to be moving out earlier than Flash. But he goes single armory to do it. Check the video day9 made of his(Light's) series vs best. Edit: fixed typos | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On April 07 2018 00:22 WGT-Baal wrote: While this doesnt fully answer your question Light plays quite aggressively and seems to be moving out earlier than Flash. But he goes single armory to do it. Check the video day9 made of his(Light's) series vs best. Edit: fixed typos Thank you! Will do. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
Is this the video u are talking about? I can't watch it until I get back home | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
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Fumapl
59 Posts
On April 07 2018 15:33 Shock710 wrote: Is larva streaming a wedding O_O wtf, he has 13k views holy shit whos wedding is this? I belive it was Ha-im's 1st birthday ceremony | ||
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Fumapl
59 Posts
What does Firebathero's new korean nickname 흑운장 mean? What's the story behind it? | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
Please teach me the art of vulture mining. | ||
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Jealous
10098 Posts
On April 12 2018 23:30 Golgotha wrote: hey I got a question about aggressive mining with vultures. let's say you have 6 vultures vs. 4 goons. How do you go about mining the goons? Do you select one vult for each goon? Or do you select as many as you can and directly place the mine near the goons? Do you set the mine right in front or behind? What's the best way? What about when you have 12 vultures vs. many goons. You have tanks coming from behind so you can dive at try to mine the goons, how do you mine properly so that the goons have trouble getting away from the mines? Please teach me the art of vulture mining. I'm no pro but I have played the various Vulture vs. Dragoon and Micro Tournament UMS a lot, and from my experience what I find to be easiest is to split your Vultures into two groups as they approach the Dragoons. One wraps around them to get behind, the others go in front. Then you magic box lay mines in front and behind the Dragoons at the same time. This is for pure Vulture vs. Dragoon. As for your Tank scenario, I have less experience here, but I think that depending on numbers it may be better to lay no mines at all? It seems like you should just attack with Tank/Vulture into pure Dragoon because all the time you spend laying mines and wrapping around the Dragoons would be time that your Vultures are not shooting their 20 damage Shield-destroying Fragmentation Grenades. If you send too many back behind the Dragoons, that will expose your Tanks and they can just move forward and snipe them. I guess if one were to do it, I think if you can do it without the Protoss knowing, it may be the best way? Think like Boxer vs. Anytime. If you have 2 Vultures that are far behind the Dragoons outside of their vision laying mines as you are pushing with Tank/Vulture, if the Dragoons are retreating then they will inevitably walk into the minefield. I think that if you try to do it mid-fight, if you send too few then the Dragoons should be able to micro it down, if you send too many they will just snipe Tanks. Perhaps a good Terran like Cryoc can weigh in? | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On April 13 2018 01:01 Jealous wrote: I'm no pro but I have played the various Vulture vs. Dragoon and Micro Tournament UMS a lot, and from my experience what I find to be easiest is to split your Vultures into two groups as they approach the Dragoons. One wraps around them to get behind, the others go in front. Then you magic box lay mines in front and behind the Dragoons at the same time. This is for pure Vulture vs. Dragoon. As for your Tank scenario, I have less experience here, but I think that depending on numbers it may be better to lay no mines at all? It seems like you should just attack with Tank/Vulture into pure Dragoon because all the time you spend laying mines and wrapping around the Dragoons would be time that your Vultures are not shooting their 20 damage Shield-destroying Fragmentation Grenades. If you send too many back behind the Dragoons, that will expose your Tanks and they can just move forward and snipe them. I guess if one were to do it, I think if you can do it without the Protoss knowing, it may be the best way? Think like Boxer vs. Anytime. If you have 2 Vultures that are far behind the Dragoons outside of their vision laying mines as you are pushing with Tank/Vulture, if the Dragoons are retreating then they will inevitably walk into the minefield. I think that if you try to do it mid-fight, if you send too few then the Dragoons should be able to micro it down, if you send too many they will just snipe Tanks. Perhaps a good Terran like Cryoc can weigh in? What's magic box? That sounds like something incredible that I don't know about. And by wrapping around you just mean manually controlling the vultures to go behind the goons right? Thanks jealous. | ||
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Jealous
10098 Posts
On April 13 2018 01:13 Golgotha wrote: What's magic box? That sounds like something incredible that I don't know about. And by wrapping around you just mean manually controlling the vultures to go behind the goons right? Thanks jealous.  Magic BoxesSuper crucial for laying mines. You ever wonder why sometimes you select a group of Vultures, tell them to lay mines, and only one does it? But then the next time you do it, all of them lay mines? The answer is Magic Boxes. By wrapping around, that is what I mean. Vultures are stupid fast. | ||
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