Let's tone down the vitriol here just a bit. It's okay to have some heated discussion about balance (especially in this kind of thread), but I fear you guys might start crossing some lines soon. - Wax
On March 20 2018 11:37 mierin wrote: Lair drops is something I could get behind if any of the other races got penalties to balance it out. As of now, yuck.
It's called a nerf because it reduces Zerg power relative to the other races. If the other races were also penalized then it wouldn't be a nerf.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Rogue vs. Classic on Backwater at the IEM final is the quintessential example of why this is an issue. He quite literally pops the nydus at Classic's natural right beside his robo, doesn't even try to hide it. Since the nydus is guaranteed to finish, and queens are guaranteed to get out(You'll notice Rogue loaded the queens first and then transfused the nydus as Classic tried to target it down), it becomes incredibly hard to shut down. Classic wasn't even playing risky that game and even scouted a third (which was cancelled after his adept no longer had vision). The nydus hit at around 4:30, warp gate has just finished so Classic could only get one round of warp ins. It hit well before a standard timing immortal could get out. It wasn't like Classic went fast third or anything either. He was still on two bases.
It would be interesting to see how being able to go robo first would impact a strategy like this. 5+ queens, zerglings and roaches against literally any early game amount of gateway units is going to beat them, even with shield batteries like Classic had. Stargate units are useless against that many queens so that isn't an answer. I couldn't figure out a way to beat it after watching the game a couple times. With a stargate opening, you would quite literally have to know it was coming to be able to even have a chance of holding it. Classic scouted a standard looking opening and played accordingly.
Here's the game:
Yeah this zerg build is super strong. Here are the two ways I think things could change due to this balance patch:
(1) Protoss does stargate opening but can immediately fly across the map and scout the zerg. In the game you linked, Classic went oracle -> phoenix and scouted around his base with the oracle. Imagine going phoenix first and flying it straight to the zerg's base to scout.
(2) Protoss can be more aggressive with the first adept. I think in order to defend the old ventral sacs timing, every adept was essential, so you saw most protoss play fairly conservatively with the first adept. Scout a little and retreat. But what if it became standard to let the first adept go on a suicide mission? I think it's very likely that Classic scouts the lair timing if he's okay with losing that adept.
Of course, better scouting matters only if a sufficient reaction is still possible. Would the phoenix scout timing be fast enough? Not sure. I'm sure we'll see it used a few more times and it'll be an interesting thing to keep an eye on.
On March 20 2018 05:54 kajtarp wrote: Few days before soO vs Stats. Great...
Thankfully, it's not a finals, so soO should have an auto-win. They could nerf every zerg unit and make it so that the screen goes black if you exceed 10apm, and soO would be fine. On the other hand, no amount of buffs would make him win the tournament. It kinda doesn't matter Blizzard does, we all know how it's gonna shake out for soO.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
ravagers at 3;00 mark is too all-inny, it's pure cancer.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
ravagers at 3;00 mark is too all-inny, it's pure cancer.
1 base Ravager all-ins are countered by making 2 Cyclones, it's called the Shitty Ravager Build for a reason. It only works if you don't scout and don't prepare for it.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
ravagers at 3;00 mark is too all-inny, it's pure cancer.
1 base Ravager all-ins are countered by making 2 Cyclones, it's called the Shitty Ravager Build for a reason. It only works if you don't scout and don't prepare for it.
I love how the Shitty Ravager Build became a thing here on TL
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
ravagers at 3;00 mark is too all-inny, it's pure cancer.
1 base Ravager all-ins are countered by making 2 Cyclones, it's called the Shitty Ravager Build for a reason. It only works if you don't scout and don't prepare for it.
i know. but what bothers me is that terran either prepared and winning or not prepared and losing without a chance, boring level 99.
I have a question, just wanna ask people (i am not a smart man). Economics has an impact on every moment. So, maybe it's needs to re-watch it again in a current state of balance? Increase numbers of resources, again, back to HotS. It's gives way more chances to survive.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Same with 2 rax bunker rush. It can be hard counter IF SCOUTED. And as i said- Protoss had problem with scoutning, not with defending droperlord. So lowering the energy cost of hallucination would be better solution. As Protoss could scout with sentry and go robo, twilight or whatever he wants depending on Zerg's build.
I disagree with this change. Toss is already OP in the early game vs zerg, who is now restricted to only sitting back and defending for the first few minutes.
They could have increased the cost of a dropperlord instead.
Every freaking race has something that if not SCOUTED is just an autowin vs his opponent. Raging about nydus, or shitty ravager build is just nonsense. I could rage on bunker rush, cannon rush or freaking shield battery/voidray cheese. Most of them, if scouted are totally defendable. That,'s just how Starcraft works.
With nydus, it only works if Protoss is greedy with his air units and pumping workers behind them.
The next step would be nerfing Immortals/Storm/or most probably ChronoBoost. As Immortals are countering every Zerg units besides Broodlords, Few Storms which are instant spell can extinguish unlimited supply of Zerg and ChronoBoost is the main issue in PvT, where Protoss has 2/2 before Terran is capable of 1/1- which in my ooinion is just ballshit.
To be honest i cinceraly doubt if Protoss would stop StarGate openings now when overlord drops are nerfed. They will still abuse that. The only difference is, that Zerg would not be able to punish that.
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote: [quote] since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote: [quote] since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Rogue vs. Classic on Backwater at the IEM final is the quintessential example of why this is an issue. He quite literally pops the nydus at Classic's natural right beside his robo, doesn't even try to hide it. Since the nydus is guaranteed to finish, and queens are guaranteed to get out(You'll notice Rogue loaded the queens first and then transfused the nydus as Classic tried to target it down), it becomes incredibly hard to shut down. Classic wasn't even playing risky that game and even scouted a third (which was cancelled after his adept no longer had vision). The nydus hit at around 4:30, warp gate has just finished so Classic could only get one round of warp ins. It hit well before a standard timing immortal could get out. It wasn't like Classic went fast third or anything either. He was still on two bases.
It would be interesting to see how being able to go robo first would impact a strategy like this. 5+ queens, zerglings and roaches against literally any early game amount of gateway units is going to beat them, even with shield batteries like Classic had. Stargate units are useless against that many queens so that isn't an answer. I couldn't figure out a way to beat it after watching the game a couple times. With a stargate opening, you would quite literally have to know it was coming to be able to even have a chance of holding it. Classic scouted a standard looking opening and played accordingly.
Yeah this zerg build is super strong. Here are the two ways I think things could change due to this balance patch:
(1) Protoss does stargate opening but can immediately fly across the map and scout the zerg. In the game you linked, Classic went oracle -> phoenix and scouted around his base with the oracle. Imagine going phoenix first and flying it straight to the zerg's base to scout.
(2) Protoss can be more aggressive with the first adept. I think in order to defend the old ventral sacs timing, every adept was essential, so you saw most protoss play fairly conservatively with the first adept. Scout a little and retreat. But what if it became standard to let the first adept go on a suicide mission? I think it's very likely that Classic scouts the lair timing if he's okay with losing that adept.
Of course, better scouting matters only if a sufficient reaction is still possible. Would the phoenix scout timing be fast enough? Not sure. I'm sure we'll see it used a few more times and it'll be an interesting thing to keep an eye on.
Yep, scouting is just a part of the problem. But, Nony, how on earth do we defend this at 4:30 if warpgate is just finishing? Simple math: at 4:30 you can have ~5 adepts from 2 gateways + a couple of other units from the first warp in. Presuming you went SG you also have like ... 2 VRs? So you have to fight 6 queens and ~12 roaches with ~7-8 gateways units (5 of them are adepts which are plain uselsess) and 2 VR (which are easily shot down by queens).
On March 20 2018 15:06 hiroshOne wrote: Every freaking race has something that if not SCOUTED is just an autowin vs his opponent. Raging about nydus, or shitty ravager build is just nonsense. I could rage on bunker rush, cannon rush or freaking shield battery/voidray cheese. Most of them, if scouted are totally defendable. That,'s just how Starcraft works.
With nydus, it only works if Protoss is greedy with his air units and pumping workers behind them.
Name the exact build and (or) unit comp to counter nydus (let alone scouting, lets pretend we are maphacking). Some VODs are appreciated as well. (spoiler: there are none).
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Same with 2 rax bunker rush. It can be hard counter IF SCOUTED. And as i said- Protoss had problem with scoutning, not with defending droperlord. So lowering the energy cost of hallucination would be better solution. As Protoss could scout with sentry and go robo, twilight or whatever he wants depending on Zerg's build.
Such confidence from someone who obviously has no idea about how the timings work out.
Let's assume that hallucination could be cast as soon as the sentry is built. Let's assume that Protoss goes for a normal gateway expand and follows it up with an adept and then a sentry. The sentry comes out at around 2:55 and sends a hallucination across the map.
So now, when does a Protoss normally throw down their tech? Around 2:15. Hmm... I sense a problem. Well at least our hallucinated phoenix will be able to fly in and spot the evolution chamber giving a twenty five second warning about the 16 ling drop that will kill you.
So pray tell how exactly will a hallucination buff increase the amount of options Protoss will have?
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play.
Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate...
The game isn't balanced around average ladder games. It's balanced around the elite level. Where currently it never loses as far as I'm concerned.
Ok, keep whining, stay bad, not my problem.
You have a serious attitude problem, no wonder the feedback threads always turn to shit with people like you around.
Sorry to disturb the whine train where you are only allowed to say "Zerg OP or call Zerg progamers patchzerg" while bringing no argument, and participatating on balance discussion even if you have no game knowledge.
I was just saying : ok you prefer to whine rather than trying to understand game, i'll stop discussing with you it's pointless.
I've given him all the things you can scout to defend the build, he refuses to understand and keep whining, i just recommand him to actually play the game (rather than whining about it), pick the Bo of rogue, pick zerg, try it vs Protoss, it will be the best way to find a good protoss that will show him how he defend the build.
But no "it's OP, i prefer to whine a lot so it will eventually get nerfed, rather than learning how to counter it".
And i'm the one warned for not being constructive....
It's not because you don't see a progamer on tournament defending a build it's OP, same for bunker rush... it's ridiculous to whine about it...
And also rather than starting posting on protoss/terran help me thread "how to counter this", he starts with "it's OP, nerf it" in the balance discussion...
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote: [quote] since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote: [quote] since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Same with 2 rax bunker rush. It can be hard counter IF SCOUTED. And as i said- Protoss had problem with scoutning, not with defending droperlord. So lowering the energy cost of hallucination would be better solution. As Protoss could scout with sentry and go robo, twilight or whatever he wants depending on Zerg's build.
Such confidence from someone who obviously has no idea about how the timings work out.
Let's assume that hallucination could be cast as soon as the sentry is built. Let's assume that Protoss goes for a normal gateway expand and follows it up with an adept and then a sentry. The sentry comes out at around 2:55 and sends a hallucination across the map.
So now, when does a Protoss normally throw down their tech? Around 2:15. Hmm... I sense a problem. Well at least our hallucinated phoenix will be able to fly in and spot the evolution chamber giving a twenty five second warning about the 16 ling drop that will kill you.
So pray tell how exactly will a hallucination buff increase the amount of options Protoss will have?
Speaking from experience here, hiroshOne and Tyrhanius will never listen to anything you say if the subject is Zerg nerfs. I've tried it all, and all in vain.
I will admit that the concept (better non-Stargate scouting for Protoss) is solid, though as you pointed out it won't actually help here.
Timing is very suspect why not wait for GSL S1 to end before doing this completely changes everything its not like this is a new complaint people have been complaining about this forever poor timing imo.
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote: [quote] If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote: [quote] If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Same with 2 rax bunker rush. It can be hard counter IF SCOUTED. And as i said- Protoss had problem with scoutning, not with defending droperlord. So lowering the energy cost of hallucination would be better solution. As Protoss could scout with sentry and go robo, twilight or whatever he wants depending on Zerg's build.
Such confidence from someone who obviously has no idea about how the timings work out.
Let's assume that hallucination could be cast as soon as the sentry is built. Let's assume that Protoss goes for a normal gateway expand and follows it up with an adept and then a sentry. The sentry comes out at around 2:55 and sends a hallucination across the map.
So now, when does a Protoss normally throw down their tech? Around 2:15. Hmm... I sense a problem. Well at least our hallucinated phoenix will be able to fly in and spot the evolution chamber giving a twenty five second warning about the 16 ling drop that will kill you.
So pray tell how exactly will a hallucination buff increase the amount of options Protoss will have?
Speaking from experience here, hiroshOne and Tyrhanius will never listen to anything you say if the subject is Zerg nerfs. I've tried it all, and all in vain.
I will admit that the concept (better scouting for Protoss) is solid.
You are like that.
am I yelling because classic beat Serral with mass chargelots/WP all-in? No, he should have scout.
Am I yelling because Dark lost vs bunker rush ? No he should have scout better.
So why should i accept that when Classic loses vs nyndus while he hasn't scouted, it should be nerfed.
And sorry i never said raven was imba, i've said it's fine, and games prove me i'm right.
And for overlord drop, i've said the problem is SB design, overlord wasn't a problem vs MSC, so fix SB rather than removing one of the few cool tools zerg has to be agressive, but no.
so yeah, i'm much more objective than you and not just lobbying for my race.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
Nobody plays Nydus with delayed (or no) third exactly because it's so easy to scout. Fast Lair can just be for quicker than usual overseers. Speedling still is at normal timing,
On March 20 2018 06:07 Tyrhanius wrote: [quote] No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote: [quote] Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Same with 2 rax bunker rush. It can be hard counter IF SCOUTED. And as i said- Protoss had problem with scoutning, not with defending droperlord. So lowering the energy cost of hallucination would be better solution. As Protoss could scout with sentry and go robo, twilight or whatever he wants depending on Zerg's build.
Such confidence from someone who obviously has no idea about how the timings work out.
Let's assume that hallucination could be cast as soon as the sentry is built. Let's assume that Protoss goes for a normal gateway expand and follows it up with an adept and then a sentry. The sentry comes out at around 2:55 and sends a hallucination across the map.
So now, when does a Protoss normally throw down their tech? Around 2:15. Hmm... I sense a problem. Well at least our hallucinated phoenix will be able to fly in and spot the evolution chamber giving a twenty five second warning about the 16 ling drop that will kill you.
So pray tell how exactly will a hallucination buff increase the amount of options Protoss will have?
Speaking from experience here, hiroshOne and Tyrhanius will never listen to anything you say if the subject is Zerg nerfs. I've tried it all, and all in vain.
I will admit that the concept (better scouting for Protoss) is solid.
You are like that.
am I yelling because classic beat Serral with mass chargelots/WP all-in? No, he should have scout.
Am I yelling because Dark lost vs bunker rush ? No he should have scout better.
So why should i accept that when Classic loses vs nyndus while he hasn't scouted, it should be nerfed.
And sorry i never said raven was imba, i've said it's fine, and games prove me i'm right.
And for overlord drop, i've said the problem is SB design, overlord wasn't a problem vs MSC, so fix SB rather than removing one of the few cool tools zerg has to be agressive, but no.
so yeah, i'm much more objective than you and not just lobbying for my race.
Haha, how did I know this post was coming. It's cool, I know where you stand already. I'd like to think we understand each other at this point.
About objectivity, and lobbying for your race..........your post history speaks for itself. As does mine, of course. I'll trust whomever that reads them to be the judge of that.
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