Let's tone down the vitriol here just a bit. It's okay to have some heated discussion about balance (especially in this kind of thread), but I fear you guys might start crossing some lines soon. - Wax
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play.
Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate...
The game isn't balanced around average ladder games. It's balanced around the elite level. Where currently it never loses as far as I'm concerned.
Ok, keep whining, stay bad, not my problem.
You have a serious attitude problem, no wonder the feedback threads always turn to shit with people like you around.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
Let's make all Zerg Units except Drones and overlords require lair tech
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
Let's make all Zerg Units except Drones and overlords require lair tech
Let's make extractors require lair tech so Zergs can't get lair tech.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
Let's make all Zerg Units except Drones and overlords require lair tech
Let's make extractors require lair tech so Zergs can't get lair tech.
You. I like you. Would you like to work for Blizzard's balance team?
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Rogue vs. Classic on Backwater at the IEM final is the quintessential example of why this is an issue. He quite literally pops the nydus at Classic's natural right beside his robo, doesn't even try to hide it. Since the nydus is guaranteed to finish, and queens are guaranteed to get out(You'll notice Rogue loaded the queens first and then transfused the nydus as Classic tried to target it down), it becomes incredibly hard to shut down. Classic wasn't even playing risky that game and even scouted a third (which was cancelled after his adept no longer had vision). The nydus hit at around 4:30, warp gate has just finished so Classic could only get one round of warp ins. It hit well before a standard timing immortal could get out. It wasn't like Classic went fast third or anything either. He was still on two bases.
It would be interesting to see how being able to go robo first would impact a strategy like this. 5+ queens, zerglings and roaches against literally any early game amount of gateway units is going to beat them, even with shield batteries like Classic had. Stargate units are useless against that many queens so that isn't an answer. I couldn't figure out a way to beat it after watching the game a couple times. With a stargate opening, you would quite literally have to know it was coming to be able to even have a chance of holding it. Classic scouted a standard looking opening and played accordingly.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
Let's make all Zerg Units except Drones and overlords require lair tech
Let's make extractors require lair tech so Zergs can't get lair tech.
On March 20 2018 11:37 mierin wrote: Lair drops is something I could get behind if any of the other races got penalties to balance it out. As of now, yuck.
Moving it to lair is intended as a Zerg nerf in ZvP. If Protoss were nerfed as well, it would be completely pointless.
EPT
