Let's tone down the vitriol here just a bit. It's okay to have some heated discussion about balance (especially in this kind of thread), but I fear you guys might start crossing some lines soon. - Wax
Short and sweet: The Zerg nerf is live, drops require Lair tech as of now.
Today’s balance change is focused on reducing the early aggression of Zerg that was particularly problematic for Protoss players. For more insight on the thoughts behind these changes, browse through our last two community updates.
Zerg
The Overlord’s Mutate Ventral Sacs upgrade now requires a Lair instead of an Evolution Chamber. With this change now live, we’ll also be taking down the balance testing queue. Thanks for everyone who helped by playing and giving us feedback. We’ll see you on the ladder.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
While it's absurd in the current meta, it realistically won't be as effective in a world where Protoss isn't forced to open stargate every game, and can better afford to build stalkers early on. It could still be too good, but I don't think it makes sense to nerf nydus when dropperlords are already getting nerfed.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play.
Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate...
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play.
Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate...
The game isn't balanced around average ladder games. It's balanced around the elite level. Where currently it never loses as far as I'm concerned.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
If you don't need to open stargate + phenix + oracle every single game, at the time the nydus pops you can have already one more immortal or afford centry with halu to scout it.
And if Zerg does not go for Nydus, a single Zellot with shield battery can hold your natural, so P players can be far more greedy.
Let's wait how it plays out. Still, they should do it after Soo vs Stats.
I still think that instead of nerfing droperlords which limits Zerg options in early game a lot, they should just lower the energy cost of hallucination from Sentry. That should give Protoss more options for scouting early.
The problem with this nerf is, that Protoss still will open stargate and play extremely greedy because there is nothing what Zerg can do to punish that. There will be no threat of speedlings in his base...Bad decision Blizzard.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play.
Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate...
The game isn't balanced around average ladder games. It's balanced around the elite level. Where currently it never loses as far as I'm concerned.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play.
Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate...
The game isn't balanced around average ladder games. It's balanced around the elite level. Where currently it never loses as far as I'm concerned.
Ok, keep whining, stay bad, not my problem.
Don't mind me, just savoring the irony here.
Tbh though I wouldn't rush to nerf nydus so quickly after the dropperlord nerf.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play.
Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate...
The game isn't balanced around average ladder games. It's balanced around the elite level. Where currently it never loses as far as I'm concerned.
Ok, keep whining, stay bad, not my problem.
You have a serious attitude problem, no wonder the feedback threads always turn to shit with people like you around.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
Let's make all Zerg Units except Drones and overlords require lair tech
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
Let's make all Zerg Units except Drones and overlords require lair tech
Let's make extractors require lair tech so Zergs can't get lair tech.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
Let's make all Zerg Units except Drones and overlords require lair tech
Let's make extractors require lair tech so Zergs can't get lair tech.
You. I like you. Would you like to work for Blizzard's balance team?
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Rogue vs. Classic on Backwater at the IEM final is the quintessential example of why this is an issue. He quite literally pops the nydus at Classic's natural right beside his robo, doesn't even try to hide it. Since the nydus is guaranteed to finish, and queens are guaranteed to get out(You'll notice Rogue loaded the queens first and then transfused the nydus as Classic tried to target it down), it becomes incredibly hard to shut down. Classic wasn't even playing risky that game and even scouted a third (which was cancelled after his adept no longer had vision). The nydus hit at around 4:30, warp gate has just finished so Classic could only get one round of warp ins. It hit well before a standard timing immortal could get out. It wasn't like Classic went fast third or anything either. He was still on two bases.
It would be interesting to see how being able to go robo first would impact a strategy like this. 5+ queens, zerglings and roaches against literally any early game amount of gateway units is going to beat them, even with shield batteries like Classic had. Stargate units are useless against that many queens so that isn't an answer. I couldn't figure out a way to beat it after watching the game a couple times. With a stargate opening, you would quite literally have to know it was coming to be able to even have a chance of holding it. Classic scouted a standard looking opening and played accordingly.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
Let's make all Zerg Units except Drones and overlords require lair tech
Let's make extractors require lair tech so Zergs can't get lair tech.
On March 20 2018 11:37 mierin wrote: Lair drops is something I could get behind if any of the other races got penalties to balance it out. As of now, yuck.
Moving it to lair is intended as a Zerg nerf in ZvP. If Protoss were nerfed as well, it would be completely pointless.
On March 20 2018 11:37 mierin wrote: Lair drops is something I could get behind if any of the other races got penalties to balance it out. As of now, yuck.
It's called a nerf because it reduces Zerg power relative to the other races. If the other races were also penalized then it wouldn't be a nerf.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Rogue vs. Classic on Backwater at the IEM final is the quintessential example of why this is an issue. He quite literally pops the nydus at Classic's natural right beside his robo, doesn't even try to hide it. Since the nydus is guaranteed to finish, and queens are guaranteed to get out(You'll notice Rogue loaded the queens first and then transfused the nydus as Classic tried to target it down), it becomes incredibly hard to shut down. Classic wasn't even playing risky that game and even scouted a third (which was cancelled after his adept no longer had vision). The nydus hit at around 4:30, warp gate has just finished so Classic could only get one round of warp ins. It hit well before a standard timing immortal could get out. It wasn't like Classic went fast third or anything either. He was still on two bases.
It would be interesting to see how being able to go robo first would impact a strategy like this. 5+ queens, zerglings and roaches against literally any early game amount of gateway units is going to beat them, even with shield batteries like Classic had. Stargate units are useless against that many queens so that isn't an answer. I couldn't figure out a way to beat it after watching the game a couple times. With a stargate opening, you would quite literally have to know it was coming to be able to even have a chance of holding it. Classic scouted a standard looking opening and played accordingly.
Yeah this zerg build is super strong. Here are the two ways I think things could change due to this balance patch:
(1) Protoss does stargate opening but can immediately fly across the map and scout the zerg. In the game you linked, Classic went oracle -> phoenix and scouted around his base with the oracle. Imagine going phoenix first and flying it straight to the zerg's base to scout.
(2) Protoss can be more aggressive with the first adept. I think in order to defend the old ventral sacs timing, every adept was essential, so you saw most protoss play fairly conservatively with the first adept. Scout a little and retreat. But what if it became standard to let the first adept go on a suicide mission? I think it's very likely that Classic scouts the lair timing if he's okay with losing that adept.
Of course, better scouting matters only if a sufficient reaction is still possible. Would the phoenix scout timing be fast enough? Not sure. I'm sure we'll see it used a few more times and it'll be an interesting thing to keep an eye on.
On March 20 2018 05:54 kajtarp wrote: Few days before soO vs Stats. Great...
Thankfully, it's not a finals, so soO should have an auto-win. They could nerf every zerg unit and make it so that the screen goes black if you exceed 10apm, and soO would be fine. On the other hand, no amount of buffs would make him win the tournament. It kinda doesn't matter Blizzard does, we all know how it's gonna shake out for soO.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
ravagers at 3;00 mark is too all-inny, it's pure cancer.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
ravagers at 3;00 mark is too all-inny, it's pure cancer.
1 base Ravager all-ins are countered by making 2 Cyclones, it's called the Shitty Ravager Build for a reason. It only works if you don't scout and don't prepare for it.
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
ravagers at 3;00 mark is too all-inny, it's pure cancer.
1 base Ravager all-ins are countered by making 2 Cyclones, it's called the Shitty Ravager Build for a reason. It only works if you don't scout and don't prepare for it.
I love how the Shitty Ravager Build became a thing here on TL
On March 20 2018 10:23 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: maybe someday they will move ravagers to lair or at least evo chamber tech
Sure, let's get rid of any of Zerg's options to threaten Protoss or Terran before Lair. While we're at it, let's make Zergling Speed require Lair, just to prevent any sort of aggression before the 5 minute mark.
ravagers at 3;00 mark is too all-inny, it's pure cancer.
1 base Ravager all-ins are countered by making 2 Cyclones, it's called the Shitty Ravager Build for a reason. It only works if you don't scout and don't prepare for it.
i know. but what bothers me is that terran either prepared and winning or not prepared and losing without a chance, boring level 99.
I have a question, just wanna ask people (i am not a smart man). Economics has an impact on every moment. So, maybe it's needs to re-watch it again in a current state of balance? Increase numbers of resources, again, back to HotS. It's gives way more chances to survive.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Same with 2 rax bunker rush. It can be hard counter IF SCOUTED. And as i said- Protoss had problem with scoutning, not with defending droperlord. So lowering the energy cost of hallucination would be better solution. As Protoss could scout with sentry and go robo, twilight or whatever he wants depending on Zerg's build.
I disagree with this change. Toss is already OP in the early game vs zerg, who is now restricted to only sitting back and defending for the first few minutes.
They could have increased the cost of a dropperlord instead.
Every freaking race has something that if not SCOUTED is just an autowin vs his opponent. Raging about nydus, or shitty ravager build is just nonsense. I could rage on bunker rush, cannon rush or freaking shield battery/voidray cheese. Most of them, if scouted are totally defendable. That,'s just how Starcraft works.
With nydus, it only works if Protoss is greedy with his air units and pumping workers behind them.
The next step would be nerfing Immortals/Storm/or most probably ChronoBoost. As Immortals are countering every Zerg units besides Broodlords, Few Storms which are instant spell can extinguish unlimited supply of Zerg and ChronoBoost is the main issue in PvT, where Protoss has 2/2 before Terran is capable of 1/1- which in my ooinion is just ballshit.
To be honest i cinceraly doubt if Protoss would stop StarGate openings now when overlord drops are nerfed. They will still abuse that. The only difference is, that Zerg would not be able to punish that.
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote: [quote] since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote: [quote] since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Rogue vs. Classic on Backwater at the IEM final is the quintessential example of why this is an issue. He quite literally pops the nydus at Classic's natural right beside his robo, doesn't even try to hide it. Since the nydus is guaranteed to finish, and queens are guaranteed to get out(You'll notice Rogue loaded the queens first and then transfused the nydus as Classic tried to target it down), it becomes incredibly hard to shut down. Classic wasn't even playing risky that game and even scouted a third (which was cancelled after his adept no longer had vision). The nydus hit at around 4:30, warp gate has just finished so Classic could only get one round of warp ins. It hit well before a standard timing immortal could get out. It wasn't like Classic went fast third or anything either. He was still on two bases.
It would be interesting to see how being able to go robo first would impact a strategy like this. 5+ queens, zerglings and roaches against literally any early game amount of gateway units is going to beat them, even with shield batteries like Classic had. Stargate units are useless against that many queens so that isn't an answer. I couldn't figure out a way to beat it after watching the game a couple times. With a stargate opening, you would quite literally have to know it was coming to be able to even have a chance of holding it. Classic scouted a standard looking opening and played accordingly.
Yeah this zerg build is super strong. Here are the two ways I think things could change due to this balance patch:
(1) Protoss does stargate opening but can immediately fly across the map and scout the zerg. In the game you linked, Classic went oracle -> phoenix and scouted around his base with the oracle. Imagine going phoenix first and flying it straight to the zerg's base to scout.
(2) Protoss can be more aggressive with the first adept. I think in order to defend the old ventral sacs timing, every adept was essential, so you saw most protoss play fairly conservatively with the first adept. Scout a little and retreat. But what if it became standard to let the first adept go on a suicide mission? I think it's very likely that Classic scouts the lair timing if he's okay with losing that adept.
Of course, better scouting matters only if a sufficient reaction is still possible. Would the phoenix scout timing be fast enough? Not sure. I'm sure we'll see it used a few more times and it'll be an interesting thing to keep an eye on.
Yep, scouting is just a part of the problem. But, Nony, how on earth do we defend this at 4:30 if warpgate is just finishing? Simple math: at 4:30 you can have ~5 adepts from 2 gateways + a couple of other units from the first warp in. Presuming you went SG you also have like ... 2 VRs? So you have to fight 6 queens and ~12 roaches with ~7-8 gateways units (5 of them are adepts which are plain uselsess) and 2 VR (which are easily shot down by queens).
On March 20 2018 15:06 hiroshOne wrote: Every freaking race has something that if not SCOUTED is just an autowin vs his opponent. Raging about nydus, or shitty ravager build is just nonsense. I could rage on bunker rush, cannon rush or freaking shield battery/voidray cheese. Most of them, if scouted are totally defendable. That,'s just how Starcraft works.
With nydus, it only works if Protoss is greedy with his air units and pumping workers behind them.
Name the exact build and (or) unit comp to counter nydus (let alone scouting, lets pretend we are maphacking). Some VODs are appreciated as well. (spoiler: there are none).
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Same with 2 rax bunker rush. It can be hard counter IF SCOUTED. And as i said- Protoss had problem with scoutning, not with defending droperlord. So lowering the energy cost of hallucination would be better solution. As Protoss could scout with sentry and go robo, twilight or whatever he wants depending on Zerg's build.
Such confidence from someone who obviously has no idea about how the timings work out.
Let's assume that hallucination could be cast as soon as the sentry is built. Let's assume that Protoss goes for a normal gateway expand and follows it up with an adept and then a sentry. The sentry comes out at around 2:55 and sends a hallucination across the map.
So now, when does a Protoss normally throw down their tech? Around 2:15. Hmm... I sense a problem. Well at least our hallucinated phoenix will be able to fly in and spot the evolution chamber giving a twenty five second warning about the 16 ling drop that will kill you.
So pray tell how exactly will a hallucination buff increase the amount of options Protoss will have?
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play.
Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate...
The game isn't balanced around average ladder games. It's balanced around the elite level. Where currently it never loses as far as I'm concerned.
Ok, keep whining, stay bad, not my problem.
You have a serious attitude problem, no wonder the feedback threads always turn to shit with people like you around.
Sorry to disturb the whine train where you are only allowed to say "Zerg OP or call Zerg progamers patchzerg" while bringing no argument, and participatating on balance discussion even if you have no game knowledge.
I was just saying : ok you prefer to whine rather than trying to understand game, i'll stop discussing with you it's pointless.
I've given him all the things you can scout to defend the build, he refuses to understand and keep whining, i just recommand him to actually play the game (rather than whining about it), pick the Bo of rogue, pick zerg, try it vs Protoss, it will be the best way to find a good protoss that will show him how he defend the build.
But no "it's OP, i prefer to whine a lot so it will eventually get nerfed, rather than learning how to counter it".
And i'm the one warned for not being constructive....
It's not because you don't see a progamer on tournament defending a build it's OP, same for bunker rush... it's ridiculous to whine about it...
And also rather than starting posting on protoss/terran help me thread "how to counter this", he starts with "it's OP, nerf it" in the balance discussion...
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote: [quote] since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote: [quote] since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Same with 2 rax bunker rush. It can be hard counter IF SCOUTED. And as i said- Protoss had problem with scoutning, not with defending droperlord. So lowering the energy cost of hallucination would be better solution. As Protoss could scout with sentry and go robo, twilight or whatever he wants depending on Zerg's build.
Such confidence from someone who obviously has no idea about how the timings work out.
Let's assume that hallucination could be cast as soon as the sentry is built. Let's assume that Protoss goes for a normal gateway expand and follows it up with an adept and then a sentry. The sentry comes out at around 2:55 and sends a hallucination across the map.
So now, when does a Protoss normally throw down their tech? Around 2:15. Hmm... I sense a problem. Well at least our hallucinated phoenix will be able to fly in and spot the evolution chamber giving a twenty five second warning about the 16 ling drop that will kill you.
So pray tell how exactly will a hallucination buff increase the amount of options Protoss will have?
Speaking from experience here, hiroshOne and Tyrhanius will never listen to anything you say if the subject is Zerg nerfs. I've tried it all, and all in vain.
I will admit that the concept (better non-Stargate scouting for Protoss) is solid, though as you pointed out it won't actually help here.
Timing is very suspect why not wait for GSL S1 to end before doing this completely changes everything its not like this is a new complaint people have been complaining about this forever poor timing imo.
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote: [quote] If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote:
On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote: [quote] If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Same with 2 rax bunker rush. It can be hard counter IF SCOUTED. And as i said- Protoss had problem with scoutning, not with defending droperlord. So lowering the energy cost of hallucination would be better solution. As Protoss could scout with sentry and go robo, twilight or whatever he wants depending on Zerg's build.
Such confidence from someone who obviously has no idea about how the timings work out.
Let's assume that hallucination could be cast as soon as the sentry is built. Let's assume that Protoss goes for a normal gateway expand and follows it up with an adept and then a sentry. The sentry comes out at around 2:55 and sends a hallucination across the map.
So now, when does a Protoss normally throw down their tech? Around 2:15. Hmm... I sense a problem. Well at least our hallucinated phoenix will be able to fly in and spot the evolution chamber giving a twenty five second warning about the 16 ling drop that will kill you.
So pray tell how exactly will a hallucination buff increase the amount of options Protoss will have?
Speaking from experience here, hiroshOne and Tyrhanius will never listen to anything you say if the subject is Zerg nerfs. I've tried it all, and all in vain.
I will admit that the concept (better scouting for Protoss) is solid.
You are like that.
am I yelling because classic beat Serral with mass chargelots/WP all-in? No, he should have scout.
Am I yelling because Dark lost vs bunker rush ? No he should have scout better.
So why should i accept that when Classic loses vs nyndus while he hasn't scouted, it should be nerfed.
And sorry i never said raven was imba, i've said it's fine, and games prove me i'm right.
And for overlord drop, i've said the problem is SB design, overlord wasn't a problem vs MSC, so fix SB rather than removing one of the few cool tools zerg has to be agressive, but no.
so yeah, i'm much more objective than you and not just lobbying for my race.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
Nobody plays Nydus with delayed (or no) third exactly because it's so easy to scout. Fast Lair can just be for quicker than usual overseers. Speedling still is at normal timing,
On March 20 2018 06:07 Tyrhanius wrote: [quote] No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
I haven't played toss since 2016 lol. But seriously though, you can't always guarantee scouting a nydus. And even if you do, it's impossible to hold with a stargate opening unless you know far enough ahead in advance.
And btw, I'm literally asking for someone to show me a pro game since 4.0 where a nydus cheese failed. If you think a cheese with a 100% success rate isn't unfair then I don't know what to say.
On March 20 2018 06:21 pvsnp wrote: [quote] Nydus has never lost against Protoss, or Terran as well?
Because just off the top of my head, Maru beat Serral's nydus.
I'm refering to ZvP. It's less OP against terran because they have better scouted, and simply better units available to defend. That being said I do think it's too strong. Can result in easy build order wins for zerg if unscouted.
According to this, it's almost impossible to defend 2 rax bunker rush with Hatchery first. I'ts failed argument, as something like build order loss exists in sc2
You're completely missing the point here. Firstly it is possible to hold a 2 rax going hatch first, it's just very difficult and depends on at what point it's scouted.
And secondly, my point was that nydus in ZvP is essentially an autowin. There's a difference between a build order win, and something that wins every time. Currently, with the builds that protoss has to go for to compete with zerg, nydus is an autowin. And before you try to keep arguing, why don't you just do what I've said every post on this thread and find a pro game where a protoss held a nydus cheese (since 4.0). Something with a 100% success rate is beyond "build order win".
If that's the case, why didn't we see it every game in WESG? Serral didn't do Nydus once when he beat Classic.
Firstly, that is the case. And secondly, I don't bloody know. I suppose it can be hard countered, but only if protoss knows it's going to happen. So if zergs started doing it every game it would get predictable. Otherwise against a standard opening, it's an autowin. As indicated by it's digusting success rate.
Edit: to clarify, why zergs aren't abusing it even more is beyond me. No protoss on the top level appears to be able to hold it.
Same with 2 rax bunker rush. It can be hard counter IF SCOUTED. And as i said- Protoss had problem with scoutning, not with defending droperlord. So lowering the energy cost of hallucination would be better solution. As Protoss could scout with sentry and go robo, twilight or whatever he wants depending on Zerg's build.
Such confidence from someone who obviously has no idea about how the timings work out.
Let's assume that hallucination could be cast as soon as the sentry is built. Let's assume that Protoss goes for a normal gateway expand and follows it up with an adept and then a sentry. The sentry comes out at around 2:55 and sends a hallucination across the map.
So now, when does a Protoss normally throw down their tech? Around 2:15. Hmm... I sense a problem. Well at least our hallucinated phoenix will be able to fly in and spot the evolution chamber giving a twenty five second warning about the 16 ling drop that will kill you.
So pray tell how exactly will a hallucination buff increase the amount of options Protoss will have?
Speaking from experience here, hiroshOne and Tyrhanius will never listen to anything you say if the subject is Zerg nerfs. I've tried it all, and all in vain.
I will admit that the concept (better scouting for Protoss) is solid.
You are like that.
am I yelling because classic beat Serral with mass chargelots/WP all-in? No, he should have scout.
Am I yelling because Dark lost vs bunker rush ? No he should have scout better.
So why should i accept that when Classic loses vs nyndus while he hasn't scouted, it should be nerfed.
And sorry i never said raven was imba, i've said it's fine, and games prove me i'm right.
And for overlord drop, i've said the problem is SB design, overlord wasn't a problem vs MSC, so fix SB rather than removing one of the few cool tools zerg has to be agressive, but no.
so yeah, i'm much more objective than you and not just lobbying for my race.
Haha, how did I know this post was coming. It's cool, I know where you stand already. I'd like to think we understand each other at this point.
About objectivity, and lobbying for your race..........your post history speaks for itself. As does mine, of course. I'll trust whomever that reads them to be the judge of that.
Well, time to kiss my positive zvp win rate good bye :-(
Main problem would be losing the information you gained from the drop, I don't see how I can easily fill that void. I guess I'll try an overlord speed opening, thou I doubt you can do that against how economical some protoss openings can be. Slow overlord scouting seems to be real easy to deny for protoss.
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
I was yesterday preparing to defend several drops which were not possible to happen. Ehm, I guess I'm not the only one who didn't notice it's live already
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Yeah, not sure what game he's been playing or watching. Zerg still has lots of viable aggressive options. Ling floods, bane busts, roach/ravager all ins, immensely strong nydus all-in (that people right now are dying to even if they scout it early), the 50 drone 3 base hydra all in, I've even seen 2 base lurker and 2 base SH/nydus be effective.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison.
At the very least they're always very committed and leave you very vulnerable to any standard followup attack Protoss can do (think committed archon/zealot attack).
This nerf is surely nice for ZvP, since the cheeses with oviedrops seemed needlessly oppressive (from an exterior POV only based on watching tournaments).
However, this doesn't address the core of zerg's early game issue, which is the queens safety net. Once again, Blizz goes for the band aid solution instead of quelling the root cause.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Yeah, not sure what game he's been playing or watching. Zerg still has lots of viable aggressive options. Ling floods, bane busts, roach/ravager all ins, immensely strong nydus all-in (that people right now are dying to even if they scout it early), the 50 drone 3 base hydra all in, I've even seen 2 base lurker and 2 base SH/nydus be effective.
Nydus allin is also a problem in TvZ, I've experienced nydus builds where the nydus starts in your base 45 seconds after your two first hellions reach your opponent's base. Since it's pretty much impossible to scout with an SCV (you scout 3 drones on gaz past the 100 needed for speedling, which can mean a whole lot of stuff) and since it can include a fake third base (maybe delaying the push a tiny itsy bit), you get a very short window to register the allin coming and adapting.
Typically you get hit by 4 queens 6 roaches : - if you don't react properly you only have something like 4 hellions 4 marines and a banshee or viking in construction, which doesn't go well - if you react properly you can switch your factory and your starport to get a tank and 2 liberators in construction, but you have to react absolutely instantly
Another tell is that zerg is harvesting past the 100 initial speedling gaz, as i said, but that you don't see an sped overlord flying through your base.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison.
At hatchery tech, it was never used besides all-ins in ZvP.
No, ladder experience of anyone who isn't a progamer isn't relevant.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison.
At hatchery tech, it was never used besides all-ins in ZvP.
No, ladder experience of anyone who isn't a progamer isn't relevant.
My memory says that hatchery tech overlord drops more often than not were pressure builds. Not the all-ins that you are speaking of. Did we watch different games? I primarily watch Koreans play since that fits my schedule better. I am also more familiar with the players in Korea and, if I have a choice, choose to watch them instead of the foreigners. What do you watch?
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison.
At hatchery tech, it was never used besides all-ins in ZvP.
No, ladder experience of anyone who isn't a progamer isn't relevant.
My memory says that hatchery tech overlord drops more often than not were pressure builds. Not the all-ins that you are speaking of. Did we watch different games? I primarily watch Koreans play since that fits my schedule better. I am also more familiar with the players in Korea and, if I have a choice, choose to watch them instead of the foreigners. What do you watch?
Have you watched any games over the past three months? Koreans and foreigners zergs alike have been all-inning with drops non-stop since 4.0. You rarely is ever merely see pressure. Unless your definition of 'pressure' is very very loose.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison.
At hatchery tech, it was never used besides all-ins in ZvP.
No, ladder experience of anyone who isn't a progamer isn't relevant.
My memory says that hatchery tech overlord drops more often than not were pressure builds. Not the all-ins that you are speaking of. Did we watch different games? I primarily watch Koreans play since that fits my schedule better. I am also more familiar with the players in Korea and, if I have a choice, choose to watch them instead of the foreigners. What do you watch?
I haven't watched starcraft in months and I know better than this lol
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison.
At hatchery tech, it was never used besides all-ins in ZvP.
No, ladder experience of anyone who isn't a progamer isn't relevant.
My memory says that hatchery tech overlord drops more often than not were pressure builds. Not the all-ins that you are speaking of. Did we watch different games? I primarily watch Koreans play since that fits my schedule better. I am also more familiar with the players in Korea and, if I have a choice, choose to watch them instead of the foreigners. What do you watch?
I haven't watched starcraft in months and I know better than this lol
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison.
At hatchery tech, it was never used besides all-ins in ZvP.
No, ladder experience of anyone who isn't a progamer isn't relevant.
My memory says that hatchery tech overlord drops more often than not were pressure builds. Not the all-ins that you are speaking of. Did we watch different games? I primarily watch Koreans play since that fits my schedule better. I am also more familiar with the players in Korea and, if I have a choice, choose to watch them instead of the foreigners. What do you watch?
I haven't watched starcraft in months and I know better than this lol
HerO smacked down the Nydus rush with a perfectly-timed stasis ward, which trapped the queens and a couple roaches, allowing him to crush the other half of the force, kill the nydus, and then kill the queens. The problem is going pure void-ray. Just get an oracle and drop a timely stasis ward.
On March 21 2018 02:21 ThunderJunk wrote: HerO smacked down the Nydus rush with a perfectly-timed stasis ward, which trapped the queens and a couple roaches, allowing him to crush the other half of the force, kill the nydus, and then kill the queens. The problem is going pure void-ray. Just get an oracle and drop a timely stasis ward.
Easier said than done when usually your oracle is across the map. The issues with nydus are 1) it's very hard to scout and 2) even if you do, unless you get the perfect stasis ward off, you're not killing the nydus. Even if you do, if enough roaches and queens get out you lose to the followup nydus anyway. It's a rough build vs SG openers. But hey, this patch addresses that exact thing. If nydus continues to kill people it will need a nerf.
On March 20 2018 15:06 hiroshOne wrote: Every freaking race has something that if not SCOUTED is just an autowin vs his opponent. Raging about nydus, or shitty ravager build is just nonsense. I could rage on bunker rush, cannon rush or freaking shield battery/voidray cheese. Most of them, if scouted are totally defendable. That,'s just how Starcraft works.
With nydus, it only works if Protoss is greedy with his air units and pumping workers behind them.
The next step would be nerfing Immortals/Storm/or most probably ChronoBoost. As Immortals are countering every Zerg units besides Broodlords, Few Storms which are instant spell can extinguish unlimited supply of Zerg and ChronoBoost is the main issue in PvT, where Protoss has 2/2 before Terran is capable of 1/1- which in my ooinion is just ballshit.
To be honest i cinceraly doubt if Protoss would stop StarGate openings now when overlord drops are nerfed. They will still abuse that. The only difference is, that Zerg would not be able to punish that.
How are Chrono's OP? Yeah they make our stuff pop out a lot faster, But taking away Chrono would mean that Terrans would have reactors to make two units at a time, and zerg would have injects to have a minimum six larva at every hatchery. That makes no sense. Taking away the chrono would put toss at a huge disadvantage to the other races. Can you imagine zerg making nine drones at a time, terran putting down mules and making SCVs at the same time, while Protoss can make like three or four Probes. Chrono OP? Please try again. Also if they have storm, half way decent micro can keep the Protoss from extinguishing "unlimited supply of Zerg," do you see the pros losing entire armies at a time from the storms? No, because they can micro. And finally, Immortals, they counter Hydras and Roaches,and with enough of them, Ultralisks. That's it.
On March 21 2018 03:09 Haukinger wrote: Am I the only one who remembers the times when there was a lair tech upgrade that made all overlords droppable?
Funny thing that it'd probably OP now with the core buffs zerg received.
On March 21 2018 03:09 Haukinger wrote: Am I the only one who remembers the times when there was a lair tech upgrade that made all overlords droppable?
Funny thing that it'd probably OP now with the core buffs zerg received.
Cost 100 for speed + 200/200 for dropping, so except if you're planning to drop with more than 8 overlords, it is not worth it.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Yeah, not sure what game he's been playing or watching. Zerg still has lots of viable aggressive options. Ling floods, bane busts, roach/ravager all ins, immensely strong nydus all-in (that people right now are dying to even if they scout it early), the 50 drone 3 base hydra all in, I've even seen 2 base lurker and 2 base SH/nydus be effective.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison.
At the very least they're always very committed and leave you very vulnerable to any standard followup attack Protoss can do (think committed archon/zealot attack).
Ravagerr allin doesn't work in ZvP because of Immortals or works in same circumstances as Droperlords- no scout from Protoss. "50 drones 3 base hydra allins"- And who doesn't watch this game anymore? It doesn't exixt because of splitting range and speed of hydras. I dare u to try this especially without droperlords. If u're reffering to Elazer's stylo of doing that allin, u must remember that it was almost always combined with early game droperlords.
On March 20 2018 15:06 hiroshOne wrote: Every freaking race has something that if not SCOUTED is just an autowin vs his opponent. Raging about nydus, or shitty ravager build is just nonsense. I could rage on bunker rush, cannon rush or freaking shield battery/voidray cheese. Most of them, if scouted are totally defendable. That,'s just how Starcraft works.
With nydus, it only works if Protoss is greedy with his air units and pumping workers behind them.
The next step would be nerfing Immortals/Storm/or most probably ChronoBoost. As Immortals are countering every Zerg units besides Broodlords, Few Storms which are instant spell can extinguish unlimited supply of Zerg and ChronoBoost is the main issue in PvT, where Protoss has 2/2 before Terran is capable of 1/1- which in my ooinion is just ballshit.
To be honest i cinceraly doubt if Protoss would stop StarGate openings now when overlord drops are nerfed. They will still abuse that. The only difference is, that Zerg would not be able to punish that.
How are Chrono's OP? Yeah they make our stuff pop out a lot faster, But taking away Chrono would mean that Terrans would have reactors to make two units at a time, and zerg would have injects to have a minimum six larva at every hatchery. That makes no sense. Taking away the chrono would put toss at a huge disadvantage to the other races. Can you imagine zerg making nine drones at a time, terran putting down mules and making SCVs at the same time, while Protoss can make like three or four Probes. Chrono OP? Please try again. Also if they have storm, half way decent micro can keep the Protoss from extinguishing "unlimited supply of Zerg," do you see the pros losing entire armies at a time from the storms? No, because they can micro. And finally, Immortals, they counter Hydras and Roaches,and with enough of them, Ultralisks. That's it.
I was talking abnout toning down chtonoboost. It's too strong. Just go ask Special or any other Terran.
On March 20 2018 17:18 IcemanAsi wrote: Well, time to kiss my positive zvp win rate good bye :-(
Main problem would be losing the information you gained from the drop, I don't see how I can easily fill that void. I guess I'll try an overlord speed opening, thou I doubt you can do that against how economical some protoss openings can be. Slow overlord scouting seems to be real easy to deny for protoss.
Yeah the information that his entire mineral line was dead lul.
Getting overlord speed is not a big deal after your first Queen (definitely lower commitment than dropping lings) and there is pretty much nothing the Protoss can do to hide buildings other than placing the outside his base
On March 20 2018 15:06 hiroshOne wrote: Every freaking race has something that if not SCOUTED is just an autowin vs his opponent. Raging about nydus, or shitty ravager build is just nonsense. I could rage on bunker rush, cannon rush or freaking shield battery/voidray cheese. Most of them, if scouted are totally defendable. That,'s just how Starcraft works.
With nydus, it only works if Protoss is greedy with his air units and pumping workers behind them.
The next step would be nerfing Immortals/Storm/or most probably ChronoBoost. As Immortals are countering every Zerg units besides Broodlords, Few Storms which are instant spell can extinguish unlimited supply of Zerg and ChronoBoost is the main issue in PvT, where Protoss has 2/2 before Terran is capable of 1/1- which in my ooinion is just ballshit.
To be honest i cinceraly doubt if Protoss would stop StarGate openings now when overlord drops are nerfed. They will still abuse that. The only difference is, that Zerg would not be able to punish that.
How are Chrono's OP? Yeah they make our stuff pop out a lot faster, But taking away Chrono would mean that Terrans would have reactors to make two units at a time, and zerg would have injects to have a minimum six larva at every hatchery. That makes no sense. Taking away the chrono would put toss at a huge disadvantage to the other races. Can you imagine zerg making nine drones at a time, terran putting down mules and making SCVs at the same time, while Protoss can make like three or four Probes. Chrono OP? Please try again. Also if they have storm, half way decent micro can keep the Protoss from extinguishing "unlimited supply of Zerg," do you see the pros losing entire armies at a time from the storms? No, because they can micro. And finally, Immortals, they counter Hydras and Roaches,and with enough of them, Ultralisks. That's it.
I was talking abnout toning down chtonoboost. It's too strong. Just go ask Special or any other Terran.
Special was saying that Protoss is way too strong even when TvP was way above 50 % and Terrans were killing Protoss players left and right. No offense, but he's just another Avilo in this regard. And from what I heard him saying, this is an offense to Avilo.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
If you're not a fan of playing defensive and reactive, Zerg is not for you. Without fundamental changes to the vs. Zerg matchups, Zerg cannot be allowed to play either defensive or aggressive and have a balanced game.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
If you're not a fan of playing defensive and reactive, Zerg is not for you. Without fundamental changes to the vs. Zerg matchups, Zerg cannot be allowed to play either defensive or aggressive and have a balanced game.
You can do literally whatever you want below GM progamer level
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
If you're not a fan of playing defensive and reactive, Zerg is not for you. Without fundamental changes to the vs. Zerg matchups, Zerg cannot be allowed to play either defensive or aggressive and have a balanced game.
You can do literally whatever you want below GM progamer level
I doubt you're going to get anywhere going for a 1-base broodlord push.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Yeah, not sure what game he's been playing or watching. Zerg still has lots of viable aggressive options. Ling floods, bane busts, roach/ravager all ins, immensely strong nydus all-in (that people right now are dying to even if they scout it early), the 50 drone 3 base hydra all in, I've even seen 2 base lurker and 2 base SH/nydus be effective.
On March 21 2018 01:09 Beelzebub1 wrote:
On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:
On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:
On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison.
At the very least they're always very committed and leave you very vulnerable to any standard followup attack Protoss can do (think committed archon/zealot attack).
Ravagerr allin doesn't work in ZvP because of Immortals or works in same circumstances as Droperlords- no scout from Protoss. "50 drones 3 base hydra allins"- And who doesn't watch this game anymore? It doesn't exixt because of splitting range and speed of hydras. I dare u to try this especially without droperlords. If u're reffering to Elazer's stylo of doing that allin, u must remember that it was almost always combined with early game droperlords.
Funny cause I see 2 or 3 base roach work against Protoss all the time, but maybe they're just bad. Right?
Same with the hydra all-in. It still exists, it's just easier to defend now instead of completely broken.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
If you're not a fan of playing defensive and reactive, Zerg is not for you. Without fundamental changes to the vs. Zerg matchups, Zerg cannot be allowed to play either defensive or aggressive and have a balanced game.
You can do literally whatever you want below GM progamer level
I think you underestimate how often diamond players cheese, you basically have to play the meta at least to some level.
On March 20 2018 15:06 hiroshOne wrote: Every freaking race has something that if not SCOUTED is just an autowin vs his opponent. Raging about nydus, or shitty ravager build is just nonsense. I could rage on bunker rush, cannon rush or freaking shield battery/voidray cheese. Most of them, if scouted are totally defendable. That,'s just how Starcraft works.
With nydus, it only works if Protoss is greedy with his air units and pumping workers behind them.
The next step would be nerfing Immortals/Storm/or most probably ChronoBoost. As Immortals are countering every Zerg units besides Broodlords, Few Storms which are instant spell can extinguish unlimited supply of Zerg and ChronoBoost is the main issue in PvT, where Protoss has 2/2 before Terran is capable of 1/1- which in my ooinion is just ballshit.
To be honest i cinceraly doubt if Protoss would stop StarGate openings now when overlord drops are nerfed. They will still abuse that. The only difference is, that Zerg would not be able to punish that.
How are Chrono's OP? Yeah they make our stuff pop out a lot faster, But taking away Chrono would mean that Terrans would have reactors to make two units at a time, and zerg would have injects to have a minimum six larva at every hatchery. That makes no sense. Taking away the chrono would put toss at a huge disadvantage to the other races. Can you imagine zerg making nine drones at a time, terran putting down mules and making SCVs at the same time, while Protoss can make like three or four Probes. Chrono OP? Please try again. Also if they have storm, half way decent micro can keep the Protoss from extinguishing "unlimited supply of Zerg," do you see the pros losing entire armies at a time from the storms? No, because they can micro. And finally, Immortals, they counter Hydras and Roaches,and with enough of them, Ultralisks. That's it.
I was talking abnout toning down chtonoboost. It's too strong. Just go ask Special or any other Terran.
Special was saying that Protoss is way too strong even when TvP was way above 50 % and Terrans were killing Protoss players left and right. No offense, but he's just another Avilo in this regard. And from what I heard him saying, this is an offense to Avilo.
Hatch tech drops was obviously designed with MSC in mind. And people react like the sky is falling with every balance change that negatively affects their playstyle, let's wait and see if this is really a big deal.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
If you're not a fan of playing defensive and reactive, Zerg is not for you. Without fundamental changes to the vs. Zerg matchups, Zerg cannot be allowed to play either defensive or aggressive and have a balanced game.
You can do literally whatever you want below GM progamer level
I think you underestimate how often diamond players cheese, you basically have to play the meta at least to some level.
You have to play the meta in Diamond league if you are at Diamond-level skill. Any progamer can do whatever the fuck they want in Diamond and still win, because they have the sheer mechanics to overpower whatever disadvantage they play at
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
If you're not a fan of playing defensive and reactive, Zerg is not for you. Without fundamental changes to the vs. Zerg matchups, Zerg cannot be allowed to play either defensive or aggressive and have a balanced game.
You can do literally whatever you want below GM progamer level
I think you underestimate how often diamond players cheese, you basically have to play the meta at least to some level.
You have to play the meta in Diamond league if you are at Diamond-level skill. Any progamer can do whatever the fuck they want in Diamond and still win, because they have the sheer mechanics to overpower whatever disadvantage they play at
I remember some GM streamer, maybe a pro, smurfing in diamond with mouse only. You're definitely right
On March 20 2018 15:06 hiroshOne wrote: Every freaking race has something that if not SCOUTED is just an autowin vs his opponent. Raging about nydus, or shitty ravager build is just nonsense. I could rage on bunker rush, cannon rush or freaking shield battery/voidray cheese. Most of them, if scouted are totally defendable. That,'s just how Starcraft works.
With nydus, it only works if Protoss is greedy with his air units and pumping workers behind them.
The next step would be nerfing Immortals/Storm/or most probably ChronoBoost. As Immortals are countering every Zerg units besides Broodlords, Few Storms which are instant spell can extinguish unlimited supply of Zerg and ChronoBoost is the main issue in PvT, where Protoss has 2/2 before Terran is capable of 1/1- which in my ooinion is just ballshit.
To be honest i cinceraly doubt if Protoss would stop StarGate openings now when overlord drops are nerfed. They will still abuse that. The only difference is, that Zerg would not be able to punish that.
How are Chrono's OP? Yeah they make our stuff pop out a lot faster, But taking away Chrono would mean that Terrans would have reactors to make two units at a time, and zerg would have injects to have a minimum six larva at every hatchery. That makes no sense. Taking away the chrono would put toss at a huge disadvantage to the other races. Can you imagine zerg making nine drones at a time, terran putting down mules and making SCVs at the same time, while Protoss can make like three or four Probes. Chrono OP? Please try again. Also if they have storm, half way decent micro can keep the Protoss from extinguishing "unlimited supply of Zerg," do you see the pros losing entire armies at a time from the storms? No, because they can micro. And finally, Immortals, they counter Hydras and Roaches,and with enough of them, Ultralisks. That's it.
I was talking abnout toning down chtonoboost. It's too strong. Just go ask Special or any other Terran.
Special was saying that Protoss is way too strong even when TvP was way above 50 % and Terrans were killing Protoss players left and right. No offense, but he's just another Avilo in this regard. And from what I heard him saying, this is an offense to Avilo.
On March 21 2018 04:56 GreatCraft wrote: Revert to pre-lair drop, give protoss warp prism access before robotics facility w/ no warp in capabiltiies. give warp in capabilities w/ robo
even more mobility options is exactly what sc2 doesn't need
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
If you're not a fan of playing defensive and reactive, Zerg is not for you. Without fundamental changes to the vs. Zerg matchups, Zerg cannot be allowed to play either defensive or aggressive and have a balanced game.
You can do literally whatever you want below GM progamer level
I think you underestimate how often diamond players cheese, you basically have to play the meta at least to some level.
You have to play the meta in Diamond league if you are at Diamond-level skill. Any progamer can do whatever the fuck they want in Diamond and still win, because they have the sheer mechanics to overpower whatever disadvantage they play at
There's no "meta" if neither you nor your opponent know how to play the game. As long as you have a sound gameplan, it doesn't really matter your BO or strategy is sub-optimal since 90% of time your experience doing it much outweighs the experience your opponent has had dealing with it. Saying that Zerg can't be played aggressively is particularly funny as half the Zergs on ladder all-in on 50 or less drones every game.
Third game soO vs Stats- Protoss everytime opens with Stargate. What a shocker. Seems to me that Droperlord nerf really opened wide scale of openings for Protoss. XDDD what a joke.
On March 21 2018 19:17 hiroshOne wrote: Third game soO vs Stats- Protoss everytime opens with Stargate. What a shocker. Seems to me that Droperlord nerf really opened wide scale of openings for Protoss. XDDD what a joke.
Considering they had 2 weeks to prepare and the patch was live 3 days before the match, it's crazy that Stats didn't wait for the last 2 days to prepare all his builds for a GSL Semifinals match against soO, i mean, WHAT A SHOCKER.
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote: Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote: Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
How much does the bracket luck affect this?
I mean - imagine the top TvZ player being on the side with a top PvT player. If such player gets good bye and then this PvT beast loses against the Zerg in the finals, can we blame balance or bracket luck?
I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced, but making accusation based on the tournament winners is not fair IMO. Player form changes, player favorite MU changes too. Look at Maru, he can beat top Zergs but in the past got ass kicked by much worse Terrans as his TvT was shitty.
On August 24 2015 22:17 summerloud wrote: pretty much everyone right now agrees that the 30dmg on impact made chargelots too strong in pretty much all situations.
however, at the same time, this upgrade really makes zealots viable in late game, and gives protoss a deadly later game harass option.
so how about separating charge/dmg on impact and movement speed?
this way, zealots could be useful without being overpowered earlier, by having the movement speed upgrade at the twilight council, making it cheaper (100/100?), and faster to research.
the charge/dmg on impact upgrade could be moved to the dark shrine, adding another purpose to this building, since dark templars got an indirect nerf with the removal of mules and the resulting abundance of scan energy for terran.
also, lore-wise this change would work very well, leaving the movement speed upgrade where it was in BW, and adding a deadly upgrade at the dark shrine that results from the input of dark templars into the khala.
so, to sum it up:
- movement speed upgrade at twilight council for 100/100, reduce research time, maybe even increase movement speed
- charge/damage on impact upgrade at dark shrine for 200/200, making it late game only
Poll: is charge too strong right now in the beta?
yes (56)
67%
no (17)
20%
maybe (10)
12%
83 total votes
Your vote: is charge too strong right now in the beta?
get rid of charge completely and replace it with a pure speed upgrade. (28)
32%
not at all, it's fine. (22)
25%
reduce but keep damage on impact. (19)
22%
this post's suggestion. (13)
15%
remove damage on impact. (5)
6%
buff or add counters to mass zealots. (1)
1%
88 total votes
Your vote: how should charge be reworked?
(Vote): not at all, it's fine. (Vote): remove damage on impact. (Vote): reduce but keep damage on impact. (Vote): get rid of charge completely and replace it with a pure speed upgrade. (Vote): buff or add counters to mass zealots. (Vote): this post's suggestion.
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote: Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
How much does the bracket luck affect this?
I mean - imagine the top TvZ player being on the side with a top PvT player. If such player gets good bye and then this PvT beast loses against the Zerg in the finals, can we blame balance or bracket luck?
I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced, but making accusation based on the tournament winners is not fair IMO. Player form changes, player favorite MU changes too. Look at Maru, he can beat top Zergs but in the past got ass kicked by much worse Terrans as his TvT was shitty.
You cannot talk about balance without talking about racial distribution. The two are tied so closely together that they are dependant on each other.
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote: Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote: Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it
Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year.
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote: Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it
Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year.
He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL.
GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize.
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote: Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it
Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year.
He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL.
GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize.
I'm not agreeing with LTCM in any way because i'm not fond of saying "X race is imba because they won X out of the last X tournaments"
but just to answer that point, how does the fact that a race didn't win a particular tournament changes the fact that zerg won 5 out of the last 6 major tournaments ? It's like saying "Yes Protoss won 19 out of the last 20 tournaments but they never won WESG so Protoss is fine" or "Only Terrans have won WESG so Terran is certainly broken".
If you're aiming to convince people of something, that's not the way to do it.
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote: Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it
Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year.
He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL.
GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize.
I'm not agreeing with LTCM in any way because i'm not fond of saying "X race is imba because they won X out of the last X tournaments"
but just to answer that point, how does the fact that a race didn't win a particular tournament changes the fact that zerg won 5 out of the last 6 major tournaments ? It's like saying "Yes Protoss won 19 out of the last 20 tournaments but they never won WESG so Protoss is fine" or "Only Terrans have won WESG so Terran is certainly broken".
If you're aiming to convince people of something, that's not the way to do it.
You can climb many moutains it is still not the same than climbing Everest
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote: Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it
Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year.
He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL.
GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize.
I'm not agreeing with LTCM in any way because i'm not fond of saying "X race is imba because they won X out of the last X tournaments"
but just to answer that point, how does the fact that a race didn't win a particular tournament changes the fact that zerg won 5 out of the last 6 major tournaments ? It's like saying "Yes Protoss won 19 out of the last 20 tournaments but they never won WESG so Protoss is fine" or "Only Terrans have won WESG so Terran is certainly broken".
If you're aiming to convince people of something, that's not the way to do it.
You can climb many moutains it is still not the same than climbing Everest
Who said GSL is the Everest of SC2 tournaments ?
GSL is supposedly harder than Blizzcon because it has only koreans. But Blizzcon is harder to win because there's only 1 per year vs. 3 GSL.
This is just your personal opinion / just fits your agenda in this case to defend your race.
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote: Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it
Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year.
He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL.
GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize.
I'm not agreeing with LTCM in any way because i'm not fond of saying "X race is imba because they won X out of the last X tournaments"
but just to answer that point, how does the fact that a race didn't win a particular tournament changes the fact that zerg won 5 out of the last 6 major tournaments ? It's like saying "Yes Protoss won 19 out of the last 20 tournaments but they never won WESG so Protoss is fine" or "Only Terrans have won WESG so Terran is certainly broken".
If you're aiming to convince people of something, that's not the way to do it.
You can climb many moutains it is still not the same than climbing Everest
Everest is the highest mountain however it is not the hardest. Some mountains are significantly more dangerous.
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote: Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it
Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year.
He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL.
GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize.
I'm not agreeing with LTCM in any way because i'm not fond of saying "X race is imba because they won X out of the last X tournaments"
but just to answer that point, how does the fact that a race didn't win a particular tournament changes the fact that zerg won 5 out of the last 6 major tournaments ? It's like saying "Yes Protoss won 19 out of the last 20 tournaments but they never won WESG so Protoss is fine" or "Only Terrans have won WESG so Terran is certainly broken".
If you're aiming to convince people of something, that's not the way to do it.
You can climb many moutains it is still not the same than climbing Everest
Everest is the highest mountain however it is not the hardest. Some mountains are significantly more dangerous.
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote: Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it
Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year.
He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL.
GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize.
I'm not agreeing with LTCM in any way because i'm not fond of saying "X race is imba because they won X out of the last X tournaments"
but just to answer that point, how does the fact that a race didn't win a particular tournament changes the fact that zerg won 5 out of the last 6 major tournaments ? It's like saying "Yes Protoss won 19 out of the last 20 tournaments but they never won WESG so Protoss is fine" or "Only Terrans have won WESG so Terran is certainly broken".
If you're aiming to convince people of something, that's not the way to do it.
You can climb many moutains it is still not the same than climbing Everest
Everest is the highest mountain however it is not the hardest. Some mountains are significantly more dangerous.
On August 24 2015 22:17 summerloud wrote: pretty much everyone right now agrees that the 30dmg on impact made chargelots too strong in pretty much all situations.
however, at the same time, this upgrade really makes zealots viable in late game, and gives protoss a deadly later game harass option.
so how about separating charge/dmg on impact and movement speed?
this way, zealots could be useful without being overpowered earlier, by having the movement speed upgrade at the twilight council, making it cheaper (100/100?), and faster to research.
the charge/dmg on impact upgrade could be moved to the dark shrine, adding another purpose to this building, since dark templars got an indirect nerf with the removal of mules and the resulting abundance of scan energy for terran.
also, lore-wise this change would work very well, leaving the movement speed upgrade where it was in BW, and adding a deadly upgrade at the dark shrine that results from the input of dark templars into the khala.
so, to sum it up:
- movement speed upgrade at twilight council for 100/100, reduce research time, maybe even increase movement speed
- charge/damage on impact upgrade at dark shrine for 200/200, making it late game only
Poll: is charge too strong right now in the beta?
yes (56)
67%
no (17)
20%
maybe (10)
12%
83 total votes
Your vote: is charge too strong right now in the beta?
get rid of charge completely and replace it with a pure speed upgrade. (28)
32%
not at all, it's fine. (22)
25%
reduce but keep damage on impact. (19)
22%
this post's suggestion. (13)
15%
remove damage on impact. (5)
6%
buff or add counters to mass zealots. (1)
1%
88 total votes
Your vote: how should charge be reworked?
(Vote): not at all, it's fine. (Vote): remove damage on impact. (Vote): reduce but keep damage on impact. (Vote): get rid of charge completely and replace it with a pure speed upgrade. (Vote): buff or add counters to mass zealots. (Vote): this post's suggestion.
On March 20 2018 11:32 brickrd wrote: im a zerg player and i don't think zerg needed evo drops. lair is fine.
Oh that's fine then, no worries. So toss gets an invincible wall with shield batteries and chroboboosted probes and mass immortal and sentries for force field. How come turtle play is being rewarded and anything that doesn't allow a player to do that freely is considered bad play?
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote: Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
How much does the bracket luck affect this?
I mean - imagine the top TvZ player being on the side with a top PvT player. If such player gets good bye and then this PvT beast loses against the Zerg in the finals, can we blame balance or bracket luck?
I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced, but making accusation based on the tournament winners is not fair IMO. Player form changes, player favorite MU changes too. Look at Maru, he can beat top Zergs but in the past got ass kicked by much worse Terrans as his TvT was shitty.
You cannot talk about balance without talking about racial distribution. The two are tied so closely together that they are dependant on each other.
Using BW as an example just because there are a lot of players playing one race doesn't mean it's the strongest.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
And therein lies why they patched it. If Protoss wasn't prepared (while at the same time not being able to scout it), it either killed them or put them at a massive disadvantage, and shutting it down reliably required going a specific tech path. If the drop failed, it might set Zerg back slightly, but usually would throw Protoss off enough and do enough damage that it would pay for itself.
Those drops were too good for the cost and risk required to do them versus the cost, risk and limitations put on the player trying hold them off. It's the same reason they've nerfed tons of other things in the past. When 1/1/1 was an issue way back when they had to nerf it (by buffing the immortal) because the build forced Protoss to prepare for it in the same way. If they did a build that countered the 1/1/1 and Terran did it, they might hold it off, but not doing a 1/1/1-countering build was game ending if Terran did 1/1/1. At the same time, if Terran didn't do 1/1/1 and Protoss prepared for it, they were now behind.
As someone said before, hatchery tech drops made sense in context to the mothership core being in the game since the mothership core could be used for scouting and to hold off the drops. Without it, hatchery tech drops were simply too good.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
So you don't want to see your low risk, high reward crap go? You sure make a compelling argument.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
And therein lies why they patched it. If Protoss wasn't prepared (while at the same time not being able to scout it), it either killed them or put them at a massive disadvantage, and shutting it down reliably required going a specific tech path. If the drop failed, it might set Zerg back slightly, but usually would throw Protoss off enough and do enough damage that it would pay for itself.
Those drops were too good for the cost and risk required to do them versus the cost, risk and limitations put on the player trying hold them off. It's the same reason they've nerfed tons of other things in the past. When 1/1/1 was an issue way back when they had to nerf it (by buffing the immortal) because the build forced Protoss to prepare for it in the same way. If they did a build that countered the 1/1/1 and Terran did it, they might hold it off, but not doing a 1/1/1-countering build was game ending if Terran did 1/1/1. At the same time, if Terran didn't do 1/1/1 and Protoss prepared for it, they were now behind.
As someone said before, hatchery tech drops made sense in context to the mothership core being in the game since the mothership core could be used for scouting and to hold off the drops. Without it, hatchery tech drops were simply too good.
Nerf chronoboost then, change something else for toss because you shouldn't be able to just get three base full sat without fear of dying. Or having no viable way to do damage to you and punish greed. How come protoss is able to deny scouting with stargate play have a incredibly strong wall with SB and incredibly flexible SG into robot play which by the way got a large buff with this patch. Now you can't be punished for skimping units in favor of greedy quick tech play. How is this conducive to balanced gameplay?
Spire play is mostly dead because toss are going to open stargate anyways its benefits were not just in scouting but for map control and presence and early air dominance until corruptors and vipers.
I hate that every patch pidgeon holes me into certain tech paths and punishes me for doing anything else. Exactly what toss were complaining about, except now toss are going to open stargate anyways get free scouting and denying mine thats just brain dead to me just do whatever you feel like and now i am unable to punish you for going quick tech which does nothing to counter the straight to skytoss cancer. Which almost always occurs if air dominance isn't contested soon enough or you damage their eco enough to delay it.
Past a certain point in ZvP you have to wait for the toss to lose his army in the middle of the map before you can even hope to break him or wait till brood Lord and late game comps. Which everyone complains about being boring to play and watch. So how come people complain about that but want even more nerfs to early and mid game?
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
So you don't want to see your low risk, high reward crap go? You sure make a compelling argument.
Oh? What exactly about the early game of toss isn't low risk high reward with your chronos and SB?
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
So you don't want to see your low risk, high reward crap go? You sure make a compelling argument.
Considering protoss is actually : no risk, garanted reward.
Oracle : no risk, if the other doesn't build spores, you kill drone, if you does you can still kill drones, even if he perfectly micro, he loses the 3 drones +75 minerals x3 for building probe and the lost mining time when you pull off workers.
And oracle can defend vs lings, throw down statis ward (defensif or as harass) or revelation to scout.
Same for phoenix : garanted dmg.
DT drop : no spores, no scout : free win, scouted : garanted dmg with harass.
Look Stats vs soO : passive zerg defending harass and all-ins, winning only lategame or on defence, while Protoss have full control of the early-midgame
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
So you don't want to see your low risk, high reward crap go? You sure make a compelling argument.
Considering protoss is actually : no risk, garanted reward.
Oracle : no risk, if the other doesn't build spores, you kill drone, if you does you can still kill drones, even if he perfectly micro, he loses the 3 drones +75 minerals x3 for building probe and the lost mining time when you pull off workers.
And oracle can defend vs lings, throw down statis ward (defensif or as harass) or revelation to scout.
Same for phoenix : garanted dmg.
DT drop : no spores, no scout : free win, scouted : garanted dmg with harass.
Look Stats vs soO : passive zerg defending harass and all-ins, winning only lategame or on defence, while Protoss have full control of the early-midgame
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
So you don't want to see your low risk, high reward crap go? You sure make a compelling argument.
Considering protoss is actually : no risk, garanted reward.
Oracle : no risk, if the other doesn't build spores, you kill drone, if you does you can still kill drones, even if he perfectly micro, he loses the 3 drones +75 minerals x3 for building probe and the lost mining time when you pull off workers.
And oracle can defend vs lings, throw down statis ward (defensif or as harass) or revelation to scout.
Same for phoenix : garanted dmg.
DT drop : no spores, no scout : free win, scouted : garanted dmg with harass.
Look Stats vs soO : passive zerg defending harass and all-ins, winning only lategame or on defence, while Protoss have full control of the early-midgame
Indeed. So many effortless shortcuts to that 43% WR...
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
So you don't want to see your low risk, high reward crap go? You sure make a compelling argument.
Considering protoss is actually : no risk, garanted reward.
Oracle : no risk, if the other doesn't build spores, you kill drone, if you does you can still kill drones, even if he perfectly micro, he loses the 3 drones +75 minerals x3 for building probe and the lost mining time when you pull off workers.
And oracle can defend vs lings, throw down statis ward (defensif or as harass) or revelation to scout.
Same for phoenix : garanted dmg.
DT drop : no spores, no scout : free win, scouted : garanted dmg with harass.
Look Stats vs soO : passive zerg defending harass and all-ins, winning only lategame or on defence, while Protoss have full control of the early-midgame
Indeed. So many effortless shortcuts to that 43% WR...
At what point do the majority of these games end? Late game or early? Because if it is later when they end then the issue wasn't the early game.
On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote: Nerf chronoboost then, change something else for toss because you shouldn't be able to just get three base full sat without fear of dying. Or having no viable way to do damage to you and punish greed. How come protoss is able to deny scouting with stargate play have a incredibly strong wall with SB and incredibly flexible SG into robot play which by the way got a large buff with this patch. Now you can't be punished for skimping units in favor of greedy quick tech play. How is this conducive to balanced gameplay?
Unless the map has a pocket 3rd, Protoss are not taking and fully saturating 3rds with zero risk while skimping on units. That's complete nonsense and hasn't been possible since the mothership core was removed.
On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote: I hate that every patch pidgeon holes me into certain tech paths and punishes me for doing anything else. Exactly what toss were complaining about, except now toss are going to open stargate anyways get free scouting and denying mine
Scouting and denying scouting isn't free if it requires investing resources you wouldn't otherwise be spending. Overlords give free scouting and queens can help deny scouting for free while oracles and phoenixes require and investment.
On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote: Past a certain point in ZvP you have to wait for the toss to lose his army in the middle of the map before you can even hope to break him or wait till brood Lord and late game comps. Which everyone complains about being boring to play and watch. So how come people complain about that but want even more nerfs to early and mid game?
Zerg was favored in PvZ in the early game, mid game, and late game. People want nerfs to early and mid game to help bring balance to the match up. People would call for late game nerfs as well, but bad players already think the golden armada is unbeatable, so people aren't going to get support for that.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
And therein lies why they patched it. If Protoss wasn't prepared (while at the same time not being able to scout it), it either killed them or put them at a massive disadvantage, and shutting it down reliably required going a specific tech path. If the drop failed, it might set Zerg back slightly, but usually would throw Protoss off enough and do enough damage that it would pay for itself.
Those drops were too good for the cost and risk required to do them versus the cost, risk and limitations put on the player trying hold them off. It's the same reason they've nerfed tons of other things in the past. When 1/1/1 was an issue way back when they had to nerf it (by buffing the immortal) because the build forced Protoss to prepare for it in the same way. If they did a build that countered the 1/1/1 and Terran did it, they might hold it off, but not doing a 1/1/1-countering build was game ending if Terran did 1/1/1. At the same time, if Terran didn't do 1/1/1 and Protoss prepared for it, they were now behind.
As someone said before, hatchery tech drops made sense in context to the mothership core being in the game since the mothership core could be used for scouting and to hold off the drops. Without it, hatchery tech drops were simply too good.
Past a certain point in ZvP you have to wait for the toss to lose his army in the middle of the map before you can even hope to break him or wait till brood Lord and late game comps. Which everyone complains about being boring to play and watch. So how come people complain about that but want even more nerfs to early and mid game?
How about the 50/66 drones hydra bane ling all-ins ? How about the roach ravager bane comp ? How about the lurker transition before the hive->spire-> bl ? How about the mass drop to the main ? Aren't all of this happen in the mid game ? Also when was the last time You saw Carriers in pro PvZ ? Did that comp actually won ? Sometimes I feel like I am watching different game...
On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote: Nerf chronoboost then, change something else for toss because you shouldn't be able to just get three base full sat without fear of dying. Or having no viable way to do damage to you and punish greed. How come protoss is able to deny scouting with stargate play have a incredibly strong wall with SB and incredibly flexible SG into robot play which by the way got a large buff with this patch. Now you can't be punished for skimping units in favor of greedy quick tech play. How is this conducive to balanced gameplay?
Unless the map has a pocket 3rd, Protoss are not taking and fully saturating 3rds with zero risk while skimping on units. That's complete nonsense and hasn't been possible since the mothership core was removed.
On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote: I hate that every patch pidgeon holes me into certain tech paths and punishes me for doing anything else. Exactly what toss were complaining about, except now toss are going to open stargate anyways get free scouting and denying mine
Scouting and denying scouting isn't free if it requires investing resources you wouldn't otherwise be spending. Overlords give free scouting and queens can help deny scouting for free while oracles and phoenixes require and investment.
On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote: Past a certain point in ZvP you have to wait for the toss to lose his army in the middle of the map before you can even hope to break him or wait till brood Lord and late game comps. Which everyone complains about being boring to play and watch. So how come people complain about that but want even more nerfs to early and mid game?
Zerg was favored in PvZ in the early game, mid game, and late game. People want nerfs to early and mid game to help bring balance to the match up. People would call for late game nerfs as well, but bad players already think the golden armada is unbeatable, so people aren't going to get support for that.
Hydras were nerfed with the upgrade being split, allowing for more flexibility or do you just discount this? Mid game was addressed and there are many timing pushes that hit before scary hydra numbers. Mid game was addressed, early game didn't need to be nerfed as it was because now you know you can't be attacked until lair or some silly roach ravaged all ins that get countered by a couple immortals gateway units and shield batteries.
My use of hyperbole was unwarranted with regards to quick three base chrono but you and now unthreatened and are able to play more greedy with much less risk and no one has denied that. Large buffs to defensive capabilities for a race that gets strong as you turtle is not the answer. You can sit your main army in your base while doing Warp prism harass and warp ins that are low risk when you can pick units up as far away as you can. I just don't see what toss does that doesn't pay dividends while keeping them safe from being punished.
These things have been addressed to allow toss more time to react. Which is fine being able to get information is good but now you cannot get punished for greed at all before lair and your openings give you scout and econ damage potential whivh zerg simply does not have anymore.
Golden armada is beatable but you need lots of static D and This is the kind of play lots of people hate doing never claimed it was unbeatable but it definitely isn't fun to play against. Neither toss players nor zerg enjoy this kind of late game scenario. But now zerg options are ham strung your options are varied and with standard stargate openings being as flexible as they are allowing you to get both map control presence and scout denial. Yes it's an investment like you mentioned and not "free" but your pay out is almost always massive and not really able to be stopped until hive or a large investment in AA and passive defense play and that's just silly.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
And therein lies why they patched it. If Protoss wasn't prepared (while at the same time not being able to scout it), it either killed them or put them at a massive disadvantage, and shutting it down reliably required going a specific tech path. If the drop failed, it might set Zerg back slightly, but usually would throw Protoss off enough and do enough damage that it would pay for itself.
Those drops were too good for the cost and risk required to do them versus the cost, risk and limitations put on the player trying hold them off. It's the same reason they've nerfed tons of other things in the past. When 1/1/1 was an issue way back when they had to nerf it (by buffing the immortal) because the build forced Protoss to prepare for it in the same way. If they did a build that countered the 1/1/1 and Terran did it, they might hold it off, but not doing a 1/1/1-countering build was game ending if Terran did 1/1/1. At the same time, if Terran didn't do 1/1/1 and Protoss prepared for it, they were now behind.
As someone said before, hatchery tech drops made sense in context to the mothership core being in the game since the mothership core could be used for scouting and to hold off the drops. Without it, hatchery tech drops were simply too good.
Past a certain point in ZvP you have to wait for the toss to lose his army in the middle of the map before you can even hope to break him or wait till brood Lord and late game comps. Which everyone complains about being boring to play and watch. So how come people complain about that but want even more nerfs to early and mid game?
How about the 50/66 drones hydra bane ling all-ins ? How about the roach ravager bane comp ? How about the lurker transition before the hive->spire-> bl ? How about the mass drop to the main ? Aren't all of this happen in the mid game ? Also when was the last time You saw Carriers in pro PvZ ? Did that comp actually won ? Sometimes I feel like I am watching different game...
Why is the answer I get always
" but this all in you can do"
What If you aren't trying to all in though? What if you are trying to set yourself up for the late game by doing damage and playing a harassment style?
Hydra bane all ins got nerfed as well with the upgrades being split. All those play styles are viable still but those are all lair or hive but now my early game consists of fast three base turtle into tech. The mid game has effectively shrunk with greedy openings into fast tech. Even Z rush to hive.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
And therein lies why they patched it. If Protoss wasn't prepared (while at the same time not being able to scout it), it either killed them or put them at a massive disadvantage, and shutting it down reliably required going a specific tech path. If the drop failed, it might set Zerg back slightly, but usually would throw Protoss off enough and do enough damage that it would pay for itself.
Those drops were too good for the cost and risk required to do them versus the cost, risk and limitations put on the player trying hold them off. It's the same reason they've nerfed tons of other things in the past. When 1/1/1 was an issue way back when they had to nerf it (by buffing the immortal) because the build forced Protoss to prepare for it in the same way. If they did a build that countered the 1/1/1 and Terran did it, they might hold it off, but not doing a 1/1/1-countering build was game ending if Terran did 1/1/1. At the same time, if Terran didn't do 1/1/1 and Protoss prepared for it, they were now behind.
As someone said before, hatchery tech drops made sense in context to the mothership core being in the game since the mothership core could be used for scouting and to hold off the drops. Without it, hatchery tech drops were simply too good.
Past a certain point in ZvP you have to wait for the toss to lose his army in the middle of the map before you can even hope to break him or wait till brood Lord and late game comps. Which everyone complains about being boring to play and watch. So how come people complain about that but want even more nerfs to early and mid game?
How about the 50/66 drones hydra bane ling all-ins ? How about the roach ravager bane comp ? How about the lurker transition before the hive->spire-> bl ? How about the mass drop to the main ? Aren't all of this happen in the mid game ? Also when was the last time You saw Carriers in pro PvZ ? Did that comp actually won ? Sometimes I feel like I am watching different game...
I never claimed mid game compositions weren't viable or good still but attacking with them when there are oracles Phoenix for pick ups etc is kind of difficult and not always viable. Defensively yeah, still really really strong mass drops with roach hydra are more of mid late game to delay toss till your hive starts kicking in. But I am not really complaining about mid late game just early to mid. There were other changes that could be implemented instead of taking drops away to lair.
Or like I mentioned before nerf chronoboost since you now have a larger variety of openings available to you as was the main complaint. Since that's been addressed, why doesn't chrono get addressed so you don't get silly three base turtle into fast upgrades?
I think Chrono boost tone down, should be next thing adressed by Blizzard. It would balance not only PvZ but mostly TvP where fast upgrades of Protoss are making bio obsolete. Protoss players whine about ZvP winrates but are refusing to acknowledge poor winrates of Terrans vs Protoss.
God, that zerg whine is over the board. It will amuse you guys, but the fact you facerolled over Protoss since LoTV spamming hydra 24/7 doesnt mean your skill suddenly increased. Guess what, MU just was freaking imbalanced (+1 range hydras anyone?), so welcome back to earth, boys. Time to start playing the actual game. If 43% WR, Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be. Just listen to the arguments: Protoss have "super strong wall" and "sentries", are we in 2010?, ravagers anyone? "We cant drop with tier1 tech" - did you actually know the other races get access to drop at tier2? and they cant just park ovies and lings at the cliff right before evo finishes. Pathetic.
On March 22 2018 15:18 hiroshOne wrote: I think Chrono boost tone down, should be next thing adressed by Blizzard. It would balance not only PvZ but mostly TvP where fast upgrades of Protoss are making bio obsolete. Protoss players whine about ZvP winrates but are refusing to acknowledge poor winrates of Terrans vs Protoss.
The only one whining and "not acknowledging" facts here is you. PvZ is 43%, PvT is 49%. In any case, "lets nerf the protoss that is getting destroyed by zerg, because terran is having hard time vs protoss" logic is awesome.
Let's tone down the intensity here just a bit. It's okay to have some heated discussion about balance (especially in this kind of thread), but I fear you guys might start crossing some lines soon.
On March 22 2018 15:24 insitelol wrote: God, that zerg whine is over the board. It will amuse you guys, but the fact you facerolled over Protoss since LoTV spamming hydra 24/7 doesnt mean your skill suddenly increased. Guess what, MU just was freaking imbalanced (+1 range hydras anyone?), so welcome back to earth, boys. Time to start playing the actual game. If 43% WR, Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be. Just listen to the arguments: Protoss have "super strong wall" and "sentries", are we in 2010?, ravagers anyone? "We cant drop with tier1 tech" - did you actually know the other races get access to drop at tier2? and they cant just park ovies and lings at the cliff right before evo finishes. Pathetic.
On March 22 2018 15:18 hiroshOne wrote: I think Chrono boost tone down, should be next thing adressed by Blizzard. It would balance not only PvZ but mostly TvP where fast upgrades of Protoss are making bio obsolete. Protoss players whine about ZvP winrates but are refusing to acknowledge poor winrates of Terrans vs Protoss.
The only one whining and "not acknowledging" facts here is you. PvZ is 43%, PvT is 49%. In any case, "lets nerf the protoss that is getting destroyed by zerg, because terran is having hard time vs protoss" logic is awesome.
" Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be"
Hahahaha, what a failed argument. Isn't it how sOs wins most of his games? With BS allins and cheeses?
On March 22 2018 15:24 insitelol wrote: God, that zerg whine is over the board. It will amuse you guys, but the fact you facerolled over Protoss since LoTV spamming hydra 24/7 doesnt mean your skill suddenly increased. Guess what, MU just was freaking imbalanced (+1 range hydras anyone?), so welcome back to earth, boys. Time to start playing the actual game. If 43% WR, Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be. Just listen to the arguments: Protoss have "super strong wall" and "sentries", are we in 2010?, ravagers anyone? "We cant drop with tier1 tech" - did you actually know the other races get access to drop at tier2? and they cant just park ovies and lings at the cliff right before evo finishes. Pathetic.
On March 22 2018 15:18 hiroshOne wrote: I think Chrono boost tone down, should be next thing adressed by Blizzard. It would balance not only PvZ but mostly TvP where fast upgrades of Protoss are making bio obsolete. Protoss players whine about ZvP winrates but are refusing to acknowledge poor winrates of Terrans vs Protoss.
The only one whining and "not acknowledging" facts here is you. PvZ is 43%, PvT is 49%. In any case, "lets nerf the protoss that is getting destroyed by zerg, because terran is having hard time vs protoss" logic is awesome.
" Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be"
Hahahaha, what a failed argument. Isn't it how sOs wins most of his games? With BS allins and cheeses?
sOs is the embodiment of God of StarCraft on earth, while Scarlett is just an ordinary foreigner. Feel the difference?
On March 22 2018 15:24 insitelol wrote: God, that zerg whine is over the board. It will amuse you guys, but the fact you facerolled over Protoss since LoTV spamming hydra 24/7 doesnt mean your skill suddenly increased. Guess what, MU just was freaking imbalanced (+1 range hydras anyone?), so welcome back to earth, boys. Time to start playing the actual game. If 43% WR, Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be. Just listen to the arguments: Protoss have "super strong wall" and "sentries", are we in 2010?, ravagers anyone? "We cant drop with tier1 tech" - did you actually know the other races get access to drop at tier2? and they cant just park ovies and lings at the cliff right before evo finishes. Pathetic.
On March 22 2018 15:18 hiroshOne wrote: I think Chrono boost tone down, should be next thing adressed by Blizzard. It would balance not only PvZ but mostly TvP where fast upgrades of Protoss are making bio obsolete. Protoss players whine about ZvP winrates but are refusing to acknowledge poor winrates of Terrans vs Protoss.
The only one whining and "not acknowledging" facts here is you. PvZ is 43%, PvT is 49%. In any case, "lets nerf the protoss that is getting destroyed by zerg, because terran is having hard time vs protoss" logic is awesome.
" Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be"
Hahahaha, what a failed argument. Isn't it how sOs wins most of his games? With BS allins and cheeses?
sOs is the embodiment of God of StarCraft on earth, while Scarlett is just an ordinary foreigner. Feel the difference?
I mean, the simple fact that this is what we've come down to.. Comparing foreigners with koreans just because foreign zergs often steamrolls on korean protoss players and we think it's normal.. (And yes korean protoss only because the winrate of Foreign zergs vs Korean terrans or zergs must be something like 1 victory out of 10 matches)..
This, by itself, shows there's something wrong with the matchup.
I mean no disrespect to foreign zerg players, but they are still incapable of breaking korean Terrans or Zergs on a regular basis, like they are capable with the korean Protoss.
PvZ has been at a ridiculously low level (43-45% for months, and overall below 50% for at least a two-digit number of months) and yet most of the whine in this thread is coming from Zergs thinking Protoss should be nerfed..
Classic stomped Serral- the best foreign Zerg on IEM Katowice semis. Whatever u say about "foreign Zergs facerolling korean protosses on regular basis"- is just false.
On March 22 2018 15:24 insitelol wrote: God, that zerg whine is over the board. It will amuse you guys, but the fact you facerolled over Protoss since LoTV spamming hydra 24/7 doesnt mean your skill suddenly increased. Guess what, MU just was freaking imbalanced (+1 range hydras anyone?), so welcome back to earth, boys. Time to start playing the actual game. If 43% WR, Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be. Just listen to the arguments: Protoss have "super strong wall" and "sentries", are we in 2010?, ravagers anyone? "We cant drop with tier1 tech" - did you actually know the other races get access to drop at tier2? and they cant just park ovies and lings at the cliff right before evo finishes. Pathetic.
On March 22 2018 15:18 hiroshOne wrote: I think Chrono boost tone down, should be next thing adressed by Blizzard. It would balance not only PvZ but mostly TvP where fast upgrades of Protoss are making bio obsolete. Protoss players whine about ZvP winrates but are refusing to acknowledge poor winrates of Terrans vs Protoss.
The only one whining and "not acknowledging" facts here is you. PvZ is 43%, PvT is 49%. In any case, "lets nerf the protoss that is getting destroyed by zerg, because terran is having hard time vs protoss" logic is awesome.
All I tasted were toss balance whine for the last year before now. Quit acting like immortal sentrie archon doesn't smash ravagers roach styles. Toss cry so hard about their options and early game so they can play greedy. But terran fall to the way side. Zerg has to sit bsck and play defensivley anf you can do what you want.You want fast probes AND upgrades and your fucking shield batteries for your defensive capabilities. Somehow you find that balanced it's fine as long as everything gets needed around you.. Chronoboost with your multiple openings and your upgrades are redonk. No one has fucking refuted that at all with my posts. You guys just want to play greedy and cry when it doesn't happen. That's poor play.
On March 22 2018 16:09 Waxangel wrote: Let's tone down the intensity here just a bit. It's okay to have some heated discussion about balance (especially in this kind of thread), but I fear you guys might start crossing some lines soon.
Sorry my bad the language I used was kind of strong.
On March 22 2018 15:24 insitelol wrote: God, that zerg whine is over the board. It will amuse you guys, but the fact you facerolled over Protoss since LoTV spamming hydra 24/7 doesnt mean your skill suddenly increased. Guess what, MU just was freaking imbalanced (+1 range hydras anyone?), so welcome back to earth, boys. Time to start playing the actual game. If 43% WR, Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be. Just listen to the arguments: Protoss have "super strong wall" and "sentries", are we in 2010?, ravagers anyone? "We cant drop with tier1 tech" - did you actually know the other races get access to drop at tier2? and they cant just park ovies and lings at the cliff right before evo finishes. Pathetic.
On March 22 2018 15:18 hiroshOne wrote: I think Chrono boost tone down, should be next thing adressed by Blizzard. It would balance not only PvZ but mostly TvP where fast upgrades of Protoss are making bio obsolete. Protoss players whine about ZvP winrates but are refusing to acknowledge poor winrates of Terrans vs Protoss.
The only one whining and "not acknowledging" facts here is you. PvZ is 43%, PvT is 49%. In any case, "lets nerf the protoss that is getting destroyed by zerg, because terran is having hard time vs protoss" logic is awesome.
" Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be"
Hahahaha, what a failed argument. Isn't it how sOs wins most of his games? With BS allins and cheeses?
sOs is the embodiment of God of StarCraft on earth, while Scarlett is just an ordinary foreigner. Feel the difference?
I mean, the simple fact that this is what we've come down to.. Comparing foreigners with koreans just because foreign zergs often steamrolls on korean protoss players and we think it's normal.. (And yes korean protoss only because the winrate of Foreign zergs vs Korean terrans or zergs must be something like 1 victory out of 10 matches)..
This, by itself, shows there's something wrong with the matchup.
I mean no disrespect to foreign zerg players, but they are still incapable of breaking korean Terrans or Zergs on a regular basis, like they are capable with the korean Protoss.
PvZ has been at a ridiculously low level (43-45% for months, and overall below 50% for at least a two-digit number of months) and yet most of the whine in this thread is coming from Zergs thinking Protoss should be nerfed..
I'm lost beyond words at this point.
The majority of zerg whine isn't geared towards toss nerfs. Just the hamstringing of out early game. You guys want WoL turtle again?
On March 22 2018 18:17 hiroshOne wrote: Classic stomped Serral- the best foreign Zerg on IEM Katowice semis. Whatever u say about "foreign Zergs facerolling korean protosses on regular basis"- is just false.
But serral got his revenge to be fair. Also he didn't cheese either that was straight macro.
As much as i'd like to blame balance on soO's loss, i think he just didn't scout well quite many times. Still i don't agree the droperlord nerf was a right call. But what is really bugging me since very very long time is revelation tbh. The effect is just simply too long. Imho revelation should only reveal and give toss vision for a limited amount of time. Am i the only one with this? In return i'd lower hallucination energy a lot.
On March 22 2018 18:44 kajtarp wrote: As much as i'd like to blame balance on soO's loss, i think he just didn't scout well quite many times. Still i don't agree the droperlord nerf was a right call. But what is really bugging me since very very long time is revelation tbh. The effect is just simply too long. Imho revelation should only reveal and give toss vision for a limited amount of time. Am i the only one with this? In return i'd lower hallucination energy a lot.
SoO didn't lose because of balance I don't think that was the topic in contention.
On March 22 2018 18:44 kajtarp wrote: As much as i'd like to blame balance on soO's loss, i think he just didn't scout well quite many times. Still i don't agree the droperlord nerf was a right call. But what is really bugging me since very very long time is revelation tbh. The effect is just simply too long. Imho revelation should only reveal and give toss vision for a limited amount of time. Am i the only one with this? In return i'd lower hallucination energy a lot.
Honestly toss having more utility out of gateway units would be good. Didn't have to take drops to lair for toss to be able to defend.
On March 22 2018 18:44 kajtarp wrote: As much as i'd like to blame balance on soO's loss, i think he just didn't scout well quite many times. Still i don't agree the droperlord nerf was a right call. But what is really bugging me since very very long time is revelation tbh. The effect is just simply too long. Imho revelation should only reveal and give toss vision for a limited amount of time. Am i the only one with this? In return i'd lower hallucination energy a lot.
I feel like Observers are too susceptible to snipe, so I'm fine with the current revelation. If I'm not mistaken, the duration was already halved.
On March 22 2018 18:44 kajtarp wrote: As much as i'd like to blame balance on soO's loss, i think he just didn't scout well quite many times. Still i don't agree the droperlord nerf was a right call. But what is really bugging me since very very long time is revelation tbh. The effect is just simply too long. Imho revelation should only reveal and give toss vision for a limited amount of time. Am i the only one with this? In return i'd lower hallucination energy a lot.
SoO didn't lose because of balance I don't think that was the topic in contention.
if you read back a few pages since yesterday i've seen quite many posts complaining that the latest balance patch had some part(or big part) in soO's loss.
On March 22 2018 15:24 insitelol wrote: God, that zerg whine is over the board. It will amuse you guys, but the fact you facerolled over Protoss since LoTV spamming hydra 24/7 doesnt mean your skill suddenly increased. Guess what, MU just was freaking imbalanced (+1 range hydras anyone?), so welcome back to earth, boys. Time to start playing the actual game. If 43% WR, Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be. Just listen to the arguments: Protoss have "super strong wall" and "sentries", are we in 2010?, ravagers anyone? "We cant drop with tier1 tech" - did you actually know the other races get access to drop at tier2? and they cant just park ovies and lings at the cliff right before evo finishes. Pathetic.
On March 22 2018 15:18 hiroshOne wrote: I think Chrono boost tone down, should be next thing adressed by Blizzard. It would balance not only PvZ but mostly TvP where fast upgrades of Protoss are making bio obsolete. Protoss players whine about ZvP winrates but are refusing to acknowledge poor winrates of Terrans vs Protoss.
The only one whining and "not acknowledging" facts here is you. PvZ is 43%, PvT is 49%. In any case, "lets nerf the protoss that is getting destroyed by zerg, because terran is having hard time vs protoss" logic is awesome.
" Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be"
Hahahaha, what a failed argument. Isn't it how sOs wins most of his games? With BS allins and cheeses?
sOs is the embodiment of God of StarCraft on earth, while Scarlett is just an ordinary foreigner. Feel the difference?
I mean, the simple fact that this is what we've come down to.. Comparing foreigners with koreans just because foreign zergs often steamrolls on korean protoss players and we think it's normal.. (And yes korean protoss only because the winrate of Foreign zergs vs Korean terrans or zergs must be something like 1 victory out of 10 matches)..
This, by itself, shows there's something wrong with the matchup.
I mean no disrespect to foreign zerg players, but they are still incapable of breaking korean Terrans or Zergs on a regular basis, like they are capable with the korean Protoss.
PvZ has been at a ridiculously low level (43-45% for months, and overall below 50% for at least a two-digit number of months) and yet most of the whine in this thread is coming from Zergs thinking Protoss should be nerfed..
I'm lost beyond words at this point.
Zergs in general have been having a rough time against terran, there are only a few zerga that cab take terran on consistently at the moment.
On March 22 2018 18:44 kajtarp wrote: As much as i'd like to blame balance on soO's loss, i think he just didn't scout well quite many times. Still i don't agree the droperlord nerf was a right call. But what is really bugging me since very very long time is revelation tbh. The effect is just simply too long. Imho revelation should only reveal and give toss vision for a limited amount of time. Am i the only one with this? In return i'd lower hallucination energy a lot.
SoO didn't lose because of balance I don't think that was the topic in contention.
if you read back a few pages since yesterday i've seen quite many posts complaining that the latest balance patch had some part(or big part) in soO's loss.
SoO isn't generally one for gimmicks, people saying he lost because of that are not well informed.
On March 22 2018 18:17 hiroshOne wrote: Classic stomped Serral- the best foreign Zerg on IEM Katowice semis. Whatever u say about "foreign Zergs facerolling korean protosses on regular basis"- is just false.
See that's the problem with you.
I say "Foreign zergs stomp korean protoss on a regular basis" and what do you answer ? It's not right because Classic beat Serral THAT ONE TIME..
Yeah sure, and you also forget to mention that in that very same tournament, Serral previously ended Zest and Trap (As well as Neeb even tho he's not korean but undoubtedly the best foreign protoss) Let's also forget that later in WESG Serral also took down Classic 3-1, but as soon as he ran into a Terran (Maru) he got stomped 3-0.
I mean come on, as good as Serral is, he takes down korean protosses way more than korean terrans or zergs. Scarlett ? Same. Elazer ? Same.
Again, no disrespect to any of them, but they'd not be as strong as they are today if not for how ridiculous the PvZ matchup is.
On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote: Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
And therein lies why they patched it. If Protoss wasn't prepared (while at the same time not being able to scout it), it either killed them or put them at a massive disadvantage, and shutting it down reliably required going a specific tech path. If the drop failed, it might set Zerg back slightly, but usually would throw Protoss off enough and do enough damage that it would pay for itself.
Those drops were too good for the cost and risk required to do them versus the cost, risk and limitations put on the player trying hold them off. It's the same reason they've nerfed tons of other things in the past. When 1/1/1 was an issue way back when they had to nerf it (by buffing the immortal) because the build forced Protoss to prepare for it in the same way. If they did a build that countered the 1/1/1 and Terran did it, they might hold it off, but not doing a 1/1/1-countering build was game ending if Terran did 1/1/1. At the same time, if Terran didn't do 1/1/1 and Protoss prepared for it, they were now behind.
As someone said before, hatchery tech drops made sense in context to the mothership core being in the game since the mothership core could be used for scouting and to hold off the drops. Without it, hatchery tech drops were simply too good.
Past a certain point in ZvP you have to wait for the toss to lose his army in the middle of the map before you can even hope to break him or wait till brood Lord and late game comps. Which everyone complains about being boring to play and watch. So how come people complain about that but want even more nerfs to early and mid game?
How about the 50/66 drones hydra bane ling all-ins ? How about the roach ravager bane comp ? How about the lurker transition before the hive->spire-> bl ? How about the mass drop to the main ? Aren't all of this happen in the mid game ? Also when was the last time You saw Carriers in pro PvZ ? Did that comp actually won ? Sometimes I feel like I am watching different game...
I never claimed mid game compositions weren't viable or good still but attacking with them when there are oracles Phoenix for pick ups etc is kind of difficult and not always viable. Defensively yeah, still really really strong mass drops with roach hydra are more of mid late game to delay toss till your hive starts kicking in. But I am not really complaining about mid late game just early to mid. There were other changes that could be implemented instead of taking drops away to lair.
To be frank I am not sure what You'd like to have in PvZ matchup anymore. You don't have to all-in - There are plenty zerg comps that work in mid game which I listed in previous post and as soon as Protoss goes for his 3rd base (and go past his imba wall) You can start to apply pressure. This is how most of Serral games looked like. He is constatly attacking from multiple angles with hydra/bane/ling comps later going into drops and lurkers which even got upgrade that prolongs their usage. You can stay on this comp for a veeeeery long time without teching to bl - you just have to apply pressure from the start and trade constantly.
Yes, it is hard to deal dmg to protoss which stays on 2base behind his wall without going all-in as zerg however as soon as he starts his 3rd there is a LOT you can do to deal dmg. If this is what You are complaining about ("deal dmg to protoss which stays on 2base") then we can start this discussion why it is designed like that.
On March 22 2018 18:17 hiroshOne wrote: Classic stomped Serral- the best foreign Zerg on IEM Katowice semis. Whatever u say about "foreign Zergs facerolling korean protosses on regular basis"- is just false.
See that's the problem with you.
I say "Foreign zergs stomp korean protoss on a regular basis" and what do you answer ? It's not right because Classic beat Serral THAT ONE TIME..
Yeah sure, and you also forget to mention that in that very same tournament, Serral previously ended Zest and Trap (As well as Neeb even tho he's not korean but undoubtedly the best foreign protoss) Let's also forget that later in WESG Serral also took down Classic 3-1, but as soon as he ran into a Terran (Maru) he got stomped 3-0.
I mean come on, as good as Serral is, he takes down korean protosses way more than korean terrans or zergs. Scarlett ? Same. Elazer ? Same.
Again, no disrespect to any of them, but they'd not be as strong as they are today if not for how ridiculous the PvZ matchup is.
I'm sorry but your example is wrong. Zest is simply far from his top form. Classic was devastated because he didn't make the finals at wesg. You could notice he was giving up mentally vs Serral and it has nothing to do with balance.
Also it's obvious that foreign Zergs are better against Toss. Foreign scene has no Terrans similar to alive,Inno,Maru,TY. The only decent T is Special, while foreign scene has much more good Protosses and Zergs.
On March 22 2018 18:17 hiroshOne wrote: Classic stomped Serral- the best foreign Zerg on IEM Katowice semis. Whatever u say about "foreign Zergs facerolling korean protosses on regular basis"- is just false.
See that's the problem with you.
I say "Foreign zergs stomp korean protoss on a regular basis" and what do you answer ? It's not right because Classic beat Serral THAT ONE TIME..
Yeah sure, and you also forget to mention that in that very same tournament, Serral previously ended Zest and Trap (As well as Neeb even tho he's not korean but undoubtedly the best foreign protoss) Let's also forget that later in WESG Serral also took down Classic 3-1, but as soon as he ran into a Terran (Maru) he got stomped 3-0.
I mean come on, as good as Serral is, he takes down korean protosses way more than korean terrans or zergs. Scarlett ? Same. Elazer ? Same.
Again, no disrespect to any of them, but they'd not be as strong as they are today if not for how ridiculous the PvZ matchup is.
I'm sorry but your example is wrong. Zest is simply far from his top form. Classic was devastated because he didn't make the finals at wesg. You could notice he was giving up mentally vs Serral and it has nothing to do with balance.
Also it's obvious that foreign Zergs are better against Toss. Foreign scene has no Terrans similar to alive,Inno,Maru,TY. The only decent T is Special, while foreign scene has much more good Protosses and Zergs.
Scarlett is training in korea since month and have access to korean ladder and players.
Showtime is the only really good Eu protoss and uthermal is not far behind in term level. In usa you have Neeb and then nothing, in terran you have Major and Kelazhur....
On March 22 2018 15:24 insitelol wrote: God, that zerg whine is over the board. It will amuse you guys, but the fact you facerolled over Protoss since LoTV spamming hydra 24/7 doesnt mean your skill suddenly increased. Guess what, MU just was freaking imbalanced (+1 range hydras anyone?), so welcome back to earth, boys. Time to start playing the actual game. If 43% WR, Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be. Just listen to the arguments: Protoss have "super strong wall" and "sentries", are we in 2010?, ravagers anyone? "We cant drop with tier1 tech" - did you actually know the other races get access to drop at tier2? and they cant just park ovies and lings at the cliff right before evo finishes. Pathetic.
On March 22 2018 15:18 hiroshOne wrote: I think Chrono boost tone down, should be next thing adressed by Blizzard. It would balance not only PvZ but mostly TvP where fast upgrades of Protoss are making bio obsolete. Protoss players whine about ZvP winrates but are refusing to acknowledge poor winrates of Terrans vs Protoss.
The only one whining and "not acknowledging" facts here is you. PvZ is 43%, PvT is 49%. In any case, "lets nerf the protoss that is getting destroyed by zerg, because terran is having hard time vs protoss" logic is awesome.
" Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be"
Hahahaha, what a failed argument. Isn't it how sOs wins most of his games? With BS allins and cheeses?
sOs is the embodiment of God of StarCraft on earth, while Scarlett is just an ordinary foreigner. Feel the difference?
I mean, the simple fact that this is what we've come down to.. Comparing foreigners with koreans just because foreign zergs often steamrolls on korean protoss players and we think it's normal.. (And yes korean protoss only because the winrate of Foreign zergs vs Korean terrans or zergs must be something like 1 victory out of 10 matches)..
This, by itself, shows there's something wrong with the matchup.
I mean no disrespect to foreign zerg players, but they are still incapable of breaking korean Terrans or Zergs on a regular basis, like they are capable with the korean Protoss.
PvZ has been at a ridiculously low level (43-45% for months, and overall below 50% for at least a two-digit number of months) and yet most of the whine in this thread is coming from Zergs thinking Protoss should be nerfed..
I'm lost beyond words at this point.
Zergs in general have been having a rough time against terran, there are only a few zerga that cab take terran on consistently at the moment.
Statistics, ladder and tournament results would disagree with you on that one.
I think the biggest change in LOTV that has affected TvZ in particular is the economy change. Terran is the stable race, not being able to build workers in bulk like the zerg or to chronoboost a certain element like the protoss. What this means is that when Terran units come out, they need to be on the offense, especially in the early game.
This means is that any Terran harass is doubly important in LOTV, meaning it must be very successful or you are behind as the Terran. This to me is the primary explanation for why TvZ has been in the state that it is in LOTV, especially for foreign Terrans who in general don't have the APM and Micro of Korean Terrans.
I think moving overlord drops to Lair is a good decision, since Zerg has more harassment/aggression options than the other two races in the early game. Maru vs. Dark at WESG was a great series, and in part I think that is attributable to Terran not being on a timer because of a reasonable late game. If the Raven is changed, some other reasonable late game option should be immediately implemented for Terran.
On March 23 2018 01:00 Ransomstarcraft wrote: I think the biggest change in LOTV that has affected TvZ in particular is the economy change. Terran is the stable race, not being able to build workers in bulk like the zerg or to chronoboost a certain element like the protoss. What this means is that when Terran units come out, they need to be on the offense, especially in the early game.
Terran is the least stable of the three races in terms of economy in my opinion, because of Mules.
If you kill a bunch of Probes, it's game over. If you kill a bunch of Drones and force action so they can't replenish them or if they don't have the larva, it's game over. But Mules provide a base income on minerals that allows Terran to comeback in so many situations that Protoss couldn't and Zerg can't.
Yeah Terran has a sort of "guaranteed" income because of mules that can lead to greater resilience, but Mules exist because SCV's are required to build all structures as well as repair. I still stand by my statement.
Terran economy grows sequentially, protoss sequentially plus chronoboost, Zerg grows exponentially. This is why there are so many ZvT Roach/Ravager timings that can just squash Terran. "You built 3 CC's and had 1 too few tanks. You're dead."
On March 23 2018 01:00 Ransomstarcraft wrote: This means is that any Terran harass is doubly important in LOTV, meaning it must be very successful or you are behind as the Terran. This to me is the primary explanation for why TvZ has been in the state that it is in LOTV, especially for foreign Terrans who in general don't have the APM and Micro of Korean Terrans.
and there is the rub.
Blizzard should balance for the top level of play. If Terrans beneath that level of play are getting defeated by others beneath their level of play that is too bad for them. Now, if no Terran alive can break the top 10.... well that is a balance problem.
I'm a higher rated Zerg player than Terran player. I don't care though. Terran is by far my favourite race to play so i play it the most.
balancing a diverse race RTS game at several different levels of play simultaneously is impossible. Any one getting into SC2 in a hard core way should know this going in... and if they don't ... they'll learn the hard way.
Try 10 Tempest slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Try 8 Carriers slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Protoss air still hard counter Terran including Ravens.
The only scenario where Ravens beats Tempest/Carriers is when you get an absurd amount of Ravens like 25+ or if the Protoss player does not spread out his army at all. That never happens in a real game though.
So basically Ravens may be OP in silver league but against a competent opponent they are not that strong and they certainly do not counter Protoss air.
On March 23 2018 03:13 MockHamill wrote: Ravens are still useless vs Protoss for gas cost.
Try 10 Tempest slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Try 8 Carriers slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Protoss air still hard counter Terran including Ravens.
The only scenario where Ravens beats Tempest/Carriers is when you get an absurd amount of Ravens like 25+ or if the Protoss player does not spread out his army at all. That never happens in a real game though.
So basically Ravens may be OP in silver league but against a competent opponent they are not that strong and they certainly do not counter Protoss air.
Units with a higher cost beat units with a lower cost in even numbers, more news at 11.
On March 23 2018 03:13 MockHamill wrote: Ravens are still useless vs Protoss for gas cost.
Try 10 Tempest slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Try 8 Carriers slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Protoss air still hard counter Terran including Ravens.
The only scenario where Ravens beats Tempest/Carriers is when you get an absurd amount of Ravens like 25+ or if the Protoss player does not spread out his army at all. That never happens in a real game though.
So basically Ravens may be OP in silver league but against a competent opponent they are not that strong and they certainly do not counter Protoss air.
Units with a higher cost beat units with a lower cost in even numbers, more news at 11.
At 11: MechHamill at 4k mmr plays higher level TvPs than Maru vs Stats
On March 23 2018 01:00 Ransomstarcraft wrote: I think the biggest change in LOTV that has affected TvZ in particular is the economy change. Terran is the stable race, not being able to build workers in bulk like the zerg or to chronoboost a certain element like the protoss. What this means is that when Terran units come out, they need to be on the offense, especially in the early game.
Actually it's the stimpack. Now it hits too late in both TvP and TvZ. Against Zerg you have at least helions, but against Protoss it's simply bad, stimpack, shield and medevacs are available too late to apply pressure. I will graciously ignore the fact that the aggressive race in that MU is Protoss nowadays.
On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote: The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic?
since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play.
Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate...
The game isn't balanced around average ladder games. It's balanced around the elite level. Where currently it never loses as far as I'm concerned.
Ok, keep whining, stay bad, not my problem.
You have a serious attitude problem, no wonder the feedback threads always turn to shit with people like you around.
Sorry to disturb the whine train where you are only allowed to say "Zerg OP or call Zerg progamers patchzerg" while bringing no argument, and participatating on balance discussion even if you have no game knowledge.
I was just saying : ok you prefer to whine rather than trying to understand game, i'll stop discussing with you it's pointless.
I've given him all the things you can scout to defend the build, he refuses to understand and keep whining, i just recommand him to actually play the game (rather than whining about it), pick the Bo of rogue, pick zerg, try it vs Protoss, it will be the best way to find a good protoss that will show him how he defend the build.
But no "it's OP, i prefer to whine a lot so it will eventually get nerfed, rather than learning how to counter it".
And i'm the one warned for not being constructive....
It's not because you don't see a progamer on tournament defending a build it's OP, same for bunker rush... it's ridiculous to whine about it...
And also rather than starting posting on protoss/terran help me thread "how to counter this", he starts with "it's OP, nerf it" in the balance discussion...
He clearly stated that it was based on pro games, not his own games as he plays Terran, rather than address this you just called him bad repeatedly, that's not constructive and it's not a good way to foster good discussions.
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote: [quote] since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play.
Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate...
The game isn't balanced around average ladder games. It's balanced around the elite level. Where currently it never loses as far as I'm concerned.
Ok, keep whining, stay bad, not my problem.
You have a serious attitude problem, no wonder the feedback threads always turn to shit with people like you around.
Sorry to disturb the whine train where you are only allowed to say "Zerg OP or call Zerg progamers patchzerg" while bringing no argument, and participatating on balance discussion even if you have no game knowledge.
I was just saying : ok you prefer to whine rather than trying to understand game, i'll stop discussing with you it's pointless.
I've given him all the things you can scout to defend the build, he refuses to understand and keep whining, i just recommand him to actually play the game (rather than whining about it), pick the Bo of rogue, pick zerg, try it vs Protoss, it will be the best way to find a good protoss that will show him how he defend the build.
But no "it's OP, i prefer to whine a lot so it will eventually get nerfed, rather than learning how to counter it".
And i'm the one warned for not being constructive....
It's not because you don't see a progamer on tournament defending a build it's OP, same for bunker rush... it's ridiculous to whine about it...
And also rather than starting posting on protoss/terran help me thread "how to counter this", he starts with "it's OP, nerf it" in the balance discussion...
He clearly stated that it was based on pro games, not his own games as he plays Terran, rather than address this you just called him bad repeatedly, that's not constructive and it's not a good way to foster good discussions.
Civility in a balance discussion is like sobriety in a bar. Asking never hurts, but be prepared for disappointment.
On March 23 2018 03:13 MockHamill wrote: Ravens are still useless vs Protoss for gas cost.
Try 10 Tempest slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Try 8 Carriers slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Protoss air still hard counter Terran including Ravens.
The only scenario where Ravens beats Tempest/Carriers is when you get an absurd amount of Ravens like 25+ or if the Protoss player does not spread out his army at all. That never happens in a real game though.
So basically Ravens may be OP in silver league but against a competent opponent they are not that strong and they certainly do not counter Protoss air.
Your point is? If marine is not a terran unit I can see the point but c'mon, when is the last time you see skytoss vs terran? Are you suggesting protoss can build pure air army to counter ravens? I got news for you, they can't.
On March 23 2018 11:35 Snakestyle1 wrote: If i was going to make a patch to improve diversity, i would:
- Nerf Hydras -Nerf mech in some way. ( ravens for sure, thors against mutas,) -Nerf immortals and warp prism.
We really need bio vs ling bane muta back.
And lets be real, PvZ in lotv always ends up in mass immortals vs some sort of hydra comp.
If Protoss is no longer forced to open Stargate every game that opens up the possibility of more Muta play so you may just get your wish, although I have a feeling Stargate openers will still be by far the most common opener.
On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote: [quote] since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play
If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate).
No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing.
Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting...
If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play.
Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate...
The game isn't balanced around average ladder games. It's balanced around the elite level. Where currently it never loses as far as I'm concerned.
Ok, keep whining, stay bad, not my problem.
You have a serious attitude problem, no wonder the feedback threads always turn to shit with people like you around.
Sorry to disturb the whine train where you are only allowed to say "Zerg OP or call Zerg progamers patchzerg" while bringing no argument, and participatating on balance discussion even if you have no game knowledge.
I was just saying : ok you prefer to whine rather than trying to understand game, i'll stop discussing with you it's pointless.
I've given him all the things you can scout to defend the build, he refuses to understand and keep whining, i just recommand him to actually play the game (rather than whining about it), pick the Bo of rogue, pick zerg, try it vs Protoss, it will be the best way to find a good protoss that will show him how he defend the build.
But no "it's OP, i prefer to whine a lot so it will eventually get nerfed, rather than learning how to counter it".
And i'm the one warned for not being constructive....
It's not because you don't see a progamer on tournament defending a build it's OP, same for bunker rush... it's ridiculous to whine about it...
And also rather than starting posting on protoss/terran help me thread "how to counter this", he starts with "it's OP, nerf it" in the balance discussion...
He clearly stated that it was based on pro games, not his own games as he plays Terran, rather than address this you just called him bad repeatedly, that's not constructive and it's not a good way to foster good discussions.
Claming something is OP and need to be nerfed to death based on a sample of 3 pro games while the problem was just the lack of scout and yeah if scouted the bo is defended by any master protoss is clearly not the good way to start discussion.
On March 23 2018 01:00 Ransomstarcraft wrote: I think the biggest change in LOTV that has affected TvZ in particular is the economy change. Terran is the stable race, not being able to build workers in bulk like the zerg or to chronoboost a certain element like the protoss. What this means is that when Terran units come out, they need to be on the offense, especially in the early game.
Actually it's the stimpack. Now it hits too late in both TvP and TvZ. Against Zerg you have at least helions, but against Protoss it's simply bad, stimpack, shield and medevacs are available too late to apply pressure. I will graciously ignore the fact that the aggressive race in that MU is Protoss nowadays.
I could agree with that. Timings changed dramatically with the LOTV economy and the 2-1-1, for instance, is nowhere near as strong as it was in HOTS. I remember the first time I did it in LOTV and there were 20 zerglings roaming the map to squash my drop and somewhere around 40 drones on 3 bases I thought "this is... different".
I think the stimpack issue didn't show itself too strongly in TvZ or TvP until the Widow Mine nerf came into effect. This is when the "Bio is ded" memes began. Yay for 2 base tank pushes in TvP.
A few controversial claims about Terran: 1. Widow mines are still pretty useless. 2. Hellions don't do their job until they have blue flame plus upgrades, which is pretty uncommon unless you're Maru. 3. Vikings have no role in TvP or TvZ at the moment. (I guess you can build 1 to clear overlords.)
I think a good change to terran is to have stimpack damage its units 5 hp less (5 instead of 10). Maybe make that change only apply once combat shields are researched. Zergling speed and adrenal glands don't damage zerglings, zealots aren't damaged by charge, and medivacs are very expensive for their limited utility, having zero pickup range and no attacks on their own. Right now, if you stim, you are vulnerable to banelings, tanks, collosi.
On March 24 2018 09:59 KR_4EVR wrote: I think a good change to terran is to have stimpack damage its units 5 hp less (5 instead of 10). Maybe make that change only apply once combat shields are researched. Zergling speed and adrenal glands don't damage zerglings, zealots aren't damaged by charge, and medivacs are very expensive for their limited utility, having zero pickup range and no attacks on their own. Right now, if you stim, you are vulnerable to banelings, tanks, collosi.
On March 24 2018 09:59 KR_4EVR wrote: I think a good change to terran is to have stimpack damage its units 5 hp less (5 instead of 10). Maybe make that change only apply once combat shields are researched. Zergling speed and adrenal glands don't damage zerglings, zealots aren't damaged by charge, and medivacs are very expensive for their limited utility, having zero pickup range and no attacks on their own. Right now, if you stim, you are vulnerable to banelings, tanks, collosi.
Siege-tanks-should-hit-air-guy is back again, telling us how the unit with the most utility in the game of sc2 has limited utility. You re also the one who said Medavacs and Vipers are same tier units, right?
On March 24 2018 18:03 hiroshOne wrote: Well thanks Blizzard. Nerfing droperlords and not nerfing Ravens. Both helped Stats and Maru to win semifinals. Two Zergs died. Are u happy now?
Yes clearly it was nothing to do with the fact that soO's scouting was terrible in half the games, or the fact that Dark and Maru are evenly matched and could have an entirely different result on a different day.
No just the nerf to one small aspect is CLEARLY to blame
But then you didn't see reason on Wednesday when you came in here and whined about it, why should I expect anything different today?
I haven't had the opportunity to watch any startcraft all week. Did you guys notice any change in the pro's build already? The ventral sack nerf was supposed to allow protoss to open with something else than stargate, is it the case or shall we wait a little longer?
On March 24 2018 18:03 hiroshOne wrote: Well thanks Blizzard. Nerfing droperlords and not nerfing Ravens. Both helped Stats and Maru to win semifinals. Two Zergs died. Are u happy now?
Yes clearly it was nothing to do with the fact that soO's scouting was terrible in half the games, or the fact that Dark and Maru are evenly matched and could have an entirely different result on a different day.
No just the nerf to one small aspect is CLEARLY to blame
But then you didn't see reason on Wednesday when you came in here and whined about it, why should I expect anything different today?
It's clear that blizzard was scaired of a ZvZ finals so they make sure drop overlord nerf was live before semifinals, and not to patch raven to let full room for maru to win.
They probably don't want both zerg to be eliminated, but at least one to be sure no ZvZ happens.
This balance team is more focus on communication and the loud cries, probably because they don't really understand their own game, they just watch tournaments, read forums, sometimes interview a few pros, but no one in balance team seem to be really playing SC2 at a decent level.
Honestly, their behavior is disgusting towards the progamers.
On March 24 2018 18:03 hiroshOne wrote: Well thanks Blizzard. Nerfing droperlords and not nerfing Ravens. Both helped Stats and Maru to win semifinals. Two Zergs died. Are u happy now?
Yes clearly it was nothing to do with the fact that soO's scouting was terrible in half the games, or the fact that Dark and Maru are evenly matched and could have an entirely different result on a different day.
No just the nerf to one small aspect is CLEARLY to blame
But then you didn't see reason on Wednesday when you came in here and whined about it, why should I expect anything different today?
It's clear that blizzard was scaired of a ZvZ finals so they make sure drop overlord nerf was live before semifinals, and not to patch raven to let full room for maru to win.
They probably don't want both zerg to be eliminated, but at least one to be sure no ZvZ happens.
This balance team is more focus on communication and the loud cries, probably because they don't really understand their own game, they just watch tournaments, read forums, sometimes interview a few pros, but no one in balance team seem to be really playing SC2 at a decent level.
Honestly, their behavior is disgusting towards the progamers.
What is clear is that you show signs of paranoia. Blizzard is just incompetent. They made the mistake of patching the game on an bad time because they are not very aware of what's going on tournament wise. They need someone to properly plan these patches but either they don't have anyone doing that or the job isn't properly executed.
Regarding the anti armor missile, again, incompetence. It obviously leads to mass caster usage late game. They even acknowledged that in the community update where they decided not to nerf it (yet). Very frustrating indeed. You'd expect (well) after for example the mass Infestor plays from the past or even the Raven itself this wouldn't happen again but alas.
On March 24 2018 18:03 hiroshOne wrote: Well thanks Blizzard. Nerfing droperlords and not nerfing Ravens. Both helped Stats and Maru to win semifinals. Two Zergs died. Are u happy now?
Yes clearly it was nothing to do with the fact that soO's scouting was terrible in half the games, or the fact that Dark and Maru are evenly matched and could have an entirely different result on a different day.
No just the nerf to one small aspect is CLEARLY to blame
But then you didn't see reason on Wednesday when you came in here and whined about it, why should I expect anything different today?
It's clear that blizzard was scaired of a ZvZ finals so they make sure drop overlord nerf was live before semifinals, and not to patch raven to let full room for maru to win.
They probably don't want both zerg to be eliminated, but at least one to be sure no ZvZ happens.
This balance team is more focus on communication and the loud cries, probably because they don't really understand their own game, they just watch tournaments, read forums, sometimes interview a few pros, but no one in balance team seem to be really playing SC2 at a decent level.
Honestly, their behavior is disgusting towards the progamers.
And there's whiner #2, right on schedule.
The timing could have been better, but to blame the nerf for the results is just ludicrous at best, a sad excuse to suit your agenda at worst
Yep. Zerg so so weak they won nothing since months, huhh. Such a scandal Maru can win lategame when Dark totally fails his mid-game all-in, or got hardcore BO counter to his early-game timing the last game (witch btw was stupid, Maru either 2rax or go banshee on big big maps)
Btw the raven obsession is kinda funny coz in his series vs Dark, ghosts seems way way stronger than ravens.
Still, the Neastea flavor of suiciding BL into vikings with zero anti-air support reminded me good memories =)
On March 24 2018 18:03 hiroshOne wrote: Well thanks Blizzard. Nerfing droperlords and not nerfing Ravens. Both helped Stats and Maru to win semifinals. Two Zergs died. Are u happy now?
Yes clearly it was nothing to do with the fact that soO's scouting was terrible in half the games, or the fact that Dark and Maru are evenly matched and could have an entirely different result on a different day.
No just the nerf to one small aspect is CLEARLY to blame
But then you didn't see reason on Wednesday when you came in here and whined about it, why should I expect anything different today?
It's clear that blizzard was scaired of a ZvZ finals so they make sure drop overlord nerf was live before semifinals, and not to patch raven to let full room for maru to win.
They probably don't want both zerg to be eliminated, but at least one to be sure no ZvZ happens.
This balance team is more focus on communication and the loud cries, probably because they don't really understand their own game, they just watch tournaments, read forums, sometimes interview a few pros, but no one in balance team seem to be really playing SC2 at a decent level.
Honestly, their behavior is disgusting towards the progamers.
What is clear is that you show signs of paranoia. Blizzard is just incompetent. They made the mistake of patching the game on an bad time because they are not very aware of what's going on tournament wise. They need someone to properly plan these patches but either they don't have anyone doing that or the job isn't properly executed.
Regarding the anti armor missile, again, incompetence. It obviously leads to mass caster usage late game. They even acknowledged that in the community update where they decided not to nerf it (yet). Very frustrating indeed. You'd expect (well) after for example the mass Infestor plays from the past or even the Raven itself this wouldn't happen again but alas.
Yeah maybe they're incompetent, but it seems to be a bit big that they ignore when the matches of the GSL are... If there is one tournament on SC2 you don't ignore, it's GSL.
U mean as he turtle up behind siegetanks and massed Ravens? Mark my words- Avilo will laugh at his stream that Maru took his builds.
Dark coukdn't do shit to ghosts because of 12+ ravens spamming AAM everywhere and on everything. That's how this unit works and in my opinion it's everything that we don't want in this game- massable unit that spams free unavoidable dmg on everything around, countering everything. Blizzard knew this is a problem, and yet, they decided not to implement this needed nerf to that unit. This is on them.
On March 24 2018 23:35 hiroshOne wrote: "Midgame mindgames of Maru"- hahaha
U mean as he turtle up behind siegetanks and massed Ravens? Mark my words- Avilo will laugh at his stream that Maru took his builds.
Dark coukdn't do shit to ghosts because of 12+ ravens spamming AAM everywhere and on everything. That's how this unit works and in my opinion it's everything that we don't want in this game- massable unit that spams free unavoidable dmg on everything around, countering everything. Blizzard knew this is a problem, and yet, they decided not to implement this needed nerf to that unit. This is on them.
There was one game where did this happen and in that game Dark failed his early game push. And Maru had a hidden base. All other games were not like this. Not sure what you were watching
On March 24 2018 20:27 algue wrote: I haven't had the opportunity to watch any startcraft all week. Did you guys notice any change in the pro's build already? The ventral sack nerf was supposed to allow protoss to open with something else than stargate, is it the case or shall we wait a little longer?
People are still mostly opening stargate, but I've seen a few games of twilight into dt archon drop. It's still a bit soon to say where the build orders will settle though.
More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
On March 26 2018 03:54 KR_4EVR wrote: More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
because it's a game of multitasking, not sim city manager
On March 24 2018 23:35 hiroshOne wrote: "Midgame mindgames of Maru"- hahaha
U mean as he turtle up behind siegetanks and massed Ravens? Mark my words- Avilo will laugh at his stream that Maru took his builds.
Dark coukdn't do shit to ghosts because of 12+ ravens spamming AAM everywhere and on everything. That's how this unit works and in my opinion it's everything that we don't want in this game- massable unit that spams free unavoidable dmg on everything around, countering everything. Blizzard knew this is a problem, and yet, they decided not to implement this needed nerf to that unit. This is on them.
dark's loses to raven ghost in lategame are coming from his defeat in midgame, on abyssal he beat raven ghost because he didn't fell apart in midgame like on ascension and darkness sanctuary.
On March 24 2018 23:35 hiroshOne wrote: "Midgame mindgames of Maru"- hahaha
U mean as he turtle up behind siegetanks and massed Ravens? Mark my words- Avilo will laugh at his stream that Maru took his builds.
Dark coukdn't do shit to ghosts because of 12+ ravens spamming AAM everywhere and on everything. That's how this unit works and in my opinion it's everything that we don't want in this game- massable unit that spams free unavoidable dmg on everything around, countering everything. Blizzard knew this is a problem, and yet, they decided not to implement this needed nerf to that unit. This is on them.
HAHAHA. Well, i didn't wait long:
Is that what u Terrans want with your lategame? :-)
On March 24 2018 23:35 hiroshOne wrote: "Midgame mindgames of Maru"- hahaha
U mean as he turtle up behind siegetanks and massed Ravens? Mark my words- Avilo will laugh at his stream that Maru took his builds.
Dark coukdn't do shit to ghosts because of 12+ ravens spamming AAM everywhere and on everything. That's how this unit works and in my opinion it's everything that we don't want in this game- massable unit that spams free unavoidable dmg on everything around, countering everything. Blizzard knew this is a problem, and yet, they decided not to implement this needed nerf to that unit. This is on them.
On March 26 2018 03:54 KR_4EVR wrote: More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
because it's a game of multitasking, not sim city manager
I don't see how being able to see more would change that. If someone wants to see more and is willing to accept the disadvantages that come from that (being precise gets harder the smaller everything is.), that should be their choice.
On March 26 2018 03:54 KR_4EVR wrote: More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
Having an option to zoom out even further while observing should be fine, but never ever touch player vision. It simply would make the game too easy (part of the pressure on players is that they don't have comfortable vision across their territory at all times), especially considering the asymmetrical race design, Zerg would just be so ridiculously overpowered...
On March 26 2018 03:54 KR_4EVR wrote: More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
because it's a game of multitasking, not sim city manager
I don't see how being able to see more would change that. If someone wants to see more and is willing to accept the disadvantages that come from that (being precise gets harder the smaller everything is.), that should be their choice.
It's an esport, so same conditions for everyone should be kinda mandatory (being able to disable skins showing on my client would go along with that). While being disadvantageous on the microing end (esp. for P and T) it would create an enormous advantage for Z players since that's just how the race is designed:
Map vision/map control via creep and Overlord placement
Building units in waves, generally favoring quantity over quality
Zerg is all about how you engage stuff, setting up flanks and position your chunks of units properly is a huge part of their playstyle, shiny micro isn't as important as for the other races
On March 24 2018 23:35 hiroshOne wrote: "Midgame mindgames of Maru"- hahaha
U mean as he turtle up behind siegetanks and massed Ravens? Mark my words- Avilo will laugh at his stream that Maru took his builds.
Dark coukdn't do shit to ghosts because of 12+ ravens spamming AAM everywhere and on everything. That's how this unit works and in my opinion it's everything that we don't want in this game- massable unit that spams free unavoidable dmg on everything around, countering everything. Blizzard knew this is a problem, and yet, they decided not to implement this needed nerf to that unit. This is on them.
Is that what u Terrans want with your lategame? :-)
Dude, stop you aren't helping yourself with that, just because Avilo claims it it doesn't matter at all, he was doing the same thing back when Gumiho won GSL, you are just throwin a tantrum at this point.
On March 23 2018 01:21 Ransomstarcraft wrote: Do you mean "most stable?"
Yeah Terran has a sort of "guaranteed" income because of mules that can lead to greater resilience, but Mules exist because SCV's are required to build all structures as well as repair. I still stand by my statement.
Terran economy grows sequentially, protoss sequentially plus chronoboost, Zerg grows exponentially. This is why there are so many ZvT Roach/Ravager timings that can just squash Terran. "You built 3 CC's and had 1 too few tanks. You're dead."
Yeah, Well play safer then most of the ravager timings are in response to greedy play. Skip a tank to go quicker bases you are asking for it.
On March 26 2018 03:54 KR_4EVR wrote: More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
Having an option to zoom out even further while observing should be fine, but never ever touch player vision. It simply would make the game too easy (part of the pressure on players is that they don't have comfortable vision across their territory at all times), especially considering the asymmetrical race design, Zerg would just be so ridiculously overpowered...
Agreed, takes half the fun of being zerg. Would lower the skill cap immensely as well. Just kill harassment style play, and back stabs.
On March 26 2018 03:54 KR_4EVR wrote: More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
Having an option to zoom out even further while observing should be fine, but never ever touch player vision. It simply would make the game too easy (part of the pressure on players is that they don't have comfortable vision across their territory at all times), especially considering the asymmetrical race design, Zerg would just be so ridiculously overpowered...
Agreed, takes half the fun of being zerg. Would lower the skill cap immensely as well. Just kill harassment style play, and back stabs.
Why don't we make the vision even smaller to make the game harder to play & buff harassment, backstabs because players won't be able to see what's happening?
If we had to choose between vision being 1.5x smaller or 1.5x larger i'd take the larger one any day, raising the level of play is usually a good thing IMO. It becomes an issue when too many players are too close to the skill cap of the game for it to be possible for any of them to shine but that's not currently a huge problem in SC2.
What I find really frustrating as a Zerg player, is that you have no way to deal with energy units. While terran has EMP and Protoss has feedback, Zerg has to rely on bleeding out the energy of their opponent, or zonning out these spell casters with (typically) BroodLord. I agree it would be problematic to give an anti energy spell to a Zerg unit as it would be really easy to hardcounter armies that takes the opponent a lot of time and ressources to build, it could be given to the Viper ( as a "naive" example, changing consume so it can be used against energy units instead ) as it is a late game unit which cost a lot and takes a lot of supply so difficult to mass.
On March 29 2018 19:20 Vanadiel wrote: What I find really frustrating as a Zerg player, is that you have no way to deal with energy units. While terran has EMP and Protoss has feedback, Zerg has to rely on bleeding out the energy of their opponent, or zoning out these spellcasters with (typically) BroodLord. I agree it would be problematic to give an anti-energy spell to a Zerg unit as it would be really easy to hard-counter armies that takes the opponent a lot of time and resources to build, it could be given to the Viper ( as a "naive" example, changing consume so it can be used against energy units instead ) as it is a late game unit which cost a lot and takes a lot of supply so difficult to mass.
How about styling with infestors to neural ghost/ht then emp/fb or storm the rest? Yes I know, good theory bro but virtually impossible to pull off in practice - esp. vT atm with the raven cloud overhead. It would need a complex series of army movements with a few spread corruptors w/ viper(s) to force the air back, then using some ling/bling or locust fodder to distract while the infestor(s) move in.
In general, I'm with the camp that thinks sc2 design shouldn't enable mass air vs. mass air comps to dominate, the golden armada (stop them before they get there!) being the only exception . For T I'd like to see 3-4 BCs & Ravens in the late game, and zerg being able to use 6-10 broods that can actually be supported by a ground-based army, not requiring mass corruptor.
With that in mind, I'd agree with any changes to the Raven that nudge it into being a support unit, with perhaps 3-5 being useful in your army and too many leaving you open to a techswitch or counter play. What effect would changing the AAM to have a higher single target damage with only the anti-armor effect having splash? That way, mass ravens would be good vs. a mostly T3 army but zerg could use ling/bane/hydra to overwhelm a comp that gets too many. With this though, you would need to either buff the viking vs T and P, or tone down the corruptor's tanki-nes slightly, maybe even give the Yamato slightly more splash instead. Could also simply increase the supply or tone down its speed, or acceleration an touch to give half a second more to identify and split away from the target.
As for speed-banshee's, I think we'll see zergs start using an infestor or viper together with spores + queen at vulnerable bases. A couple of fungal + PB could really make the T think twice, and as zerg how many times do you need to have a base denied before that investment is worth it? Theory-crafting out loud here but what about a queen ability that slows down single targets, maybe available at T2.5? I guess it overlaps too much with the infestor, but would mean, fast-moving banshee squadrons liable to losing at least 1-2 banshee's being caught by hydras and queens at vulnerable bases.
Ultimately, more time is probably needed. For starters, I don't think any pros are really elite yet at splitting and fanning with smaller groups of air units, nor do I think Zergs and Protoss have adjusted to the current AMM and the strat is not that old yet. We still see death-ball air clumps of all races, airtoss/corruptors/vikings and zergs flying in with all of their corruptors at once, rather than using them in split waves (think Life's pioneering of ling/bling waves vs window mines at the start of HOTS).
That said, Maru's brand of late-game TvZ does look pretty complete and very scary at the moment, we saw Dark trying a few different things in the GSL semi's but the AMM seemed just a little too good vs. everything.. How can zerg's force a lopsided comp and employ their trademark tech switches when one 'good-vs-all-comps-unit' can be massed. I know this can also be said of the carrier but its higher cost and build time definitely render them riskier to mass.
OR we could just tone down all air...
As for the zoom out.. lol. The relatively small vision size is a defining feature of high-level limited army RTS games and IMO, when it comes SC2, it is essential for ensuring the skill cap remains high because of the simplified mechanics compared with its predecessor. Forcing an opponent to look away from where they should be looking is one of the techniques that really separates the top level pro's from the rest of the pack. Maru and TY are the masters of this heavy multi-task based style, and really take it to the next level in of their some games.. Any small tempo advantage that gets them on the front foot turns quickly into an endless succession of forced responses constantly diverting the opponent's attention away from the next, sustaining their initiative until the gg is called soon after. I've often wanted a slightly bigger mini-map but that's because I don't watch it as much as I should.
Might be a fun mod for casual play but would do nothing for long term skill development.
eventually that Raven missile thing has to be nerfed or removed ... what to give Terran to compensate for this... i have no idea.
The Raven needs to be a support unit not a flying, magical, offensive spell machine.
"they say that Raven is the flock's guide... .down alienation's barren path.... the truth is ... i walk alone... quote the Raven... nevermore", Scott Levy, March 31st 1998, Monday Nitro... the day SC1 was released.
On March 26 2018 03:54 KR_4EVR wrote: More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
I would support this feature - though technically the minimap kinda does the same thing already.
If im not mistaken, i believe there use to be some hacks that let players do this.
It's difficult to play Terran now. You need exceptional control to win with Terran. Maru is the only Terran with this exceptional control now so he is the exception. Just look at Rotti's review of how Maru was down against sOs at IEM and Maru was about to lose, but Maru pulls off the perfect engagement (literally perfect in Rotti's words) to beat sOs:
No other Terran can pull off Maru's control right now. Today against Stats, Maru was instantly cloaking his Banshees the moment they were under attack, to save the Banshee. And that money EMP Maru put on Stats's 3 High Templar today in game 6. Why was Stats clumping his 3 High Templars in the first place when ghosts are on the field? Do other top Protoss players clump their High Templars when ghosts are on the field? That was just lazy and poor control by Stats.
Innovation, Byun, and Ty are still struggling right now. The other top Korean Terrans just aren't pulling rabbits out of their hats. I don't know how you control your units better than Maru, for a human being. I think Maru will eventually come back down to earth (no way he maintains this level of control in every tournament). And when Maru comes back down to earth, I think Terran will continue to struggle.
Yeah, Terran is probably the hardest race to play right now. Not everybody can micro and control their units like Maru. Not even Innovation, Byun, or Ty can replicate Maru.
Depends on leagues. Below GM all u need is good timed a-move to kill Zerg. But u loose in PvT. Zerg dies from Protoss allins too. Mass Chargelots on 2 base 8 gateways with 2 immortals- try to defend it without loosing your third :-(