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Let's tone down the vitriol here just a bit. It's okay to have some heated discussion about balance (especially in this kind of thread), but I fear you guys might start crossing some lines soon. - Wax |
Well, time to kiss my positive zvp win rate good bye :-(
Main problem would be losing the information you gained from the drop, I don't see how I can easily fill that void. I guess I'll try an overlord speed opening, thou I doubt you can do that against how economical some protoss openings can be. Slow overlord scouting seems to be real easy to deny for protoss.
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Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
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Stargate might still be the best opening but at least it opens the door for new ones.
Back in the day when pheonix adept was a thing in PvT some kor pro still played robo twilight.
We'll see others PvZ openings with time.
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On March 20 2018 05:54 kajtarp wrote:
Few days before soO vs Stats. Great...
soO will be fine
He is godlike...until grand finals anyway 😄.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
I was yesterday preparing to defend several drops which were not possible to happen. Ehm, I guess I'm not the only one who didn't notice it's live already 
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On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked.
You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced.
Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
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On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that?
Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
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On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years.
Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
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On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
Yeah, not sure what game he's been playing or watching. Zerg still has lots of viable aggressive options. Ling floods, bane busts, roach/ravager all ins, immensely strong nydus all-in (that people right now are dying to even if they scout it early), the 50 drone 3 base hydra all in, I've even seen 2 base lurker and 2 base SH/nydus be effective.
On March 21 2018 01:09 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison.
At the very least they're always very committed and leave you very vulnerable to any standard followup attack Protoss can do (think committed archon/zealot attack).
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This nerf is surely nice for ZvP, since the cheeses with oviedrops seemed needlessly oppressive (from an exterior POV only based on watching tournaments).
However, this doesn't address the core of zerg's early game issue, which is the queens safety net. Once again, Blizz goes for the band aid solution instead of quelling the root cause.
On March 21 2018 01:12 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? Yeah, not sure what game he's been playing or watching. Zerg still has lots of viable aggressive options. Ling floods, bane busts, roach/ravager all ins, immensely strong nydus all-in (that people right now are dying to even if they scout it early), the 50 drone 3 base hydra all in, I've even seen 2 base lurker and 2 base SH/nydus be effective.
Nydus allin is also a problem in TvZ, I've experienced nydus builds where the nydus starts in your base 45 seconds after your two first hellions reach your opponent's base.
Since it's pretty much impossible to scout with an SCV (you scout 3 drones on gaz past the 100 needed for speedling, which can mean a whole lot of stuff) and since it can include a fake third base (maybe delaying the push a tiny itsy bit), you get a very short window to register the allin coming and adapting.
Typically you get hit by 4 queens 6 roaches :
- if you don't react properly you only have something like 4 hellions 4 marines and a banshee or viking in construction, which doesn't go well
- if you react properly you can switch your factory and your starport to get a tank and 2 liberators in construction, but you have to react absolutely instantly
Another tell is that zerg is harvesting past the 100 initial speedling gaz, as i said, but that you don't see an sped overlord flying through your base.
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On March 21 2018 01:09 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison.
At hatchery tech, it was never used besides all-ins in ZvP.
No, ladder experience of anyone who isn't a progamer isn't relevant.
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On March 21 2018 01:16 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 01:09 Beelzebub1 wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison. At hatchery tech, it was never used besides all-ins in ZvP. No, ladder experience of anyone who isn't a progamer isn't relevant.
My memory says that hatchery tech overlord drops more often than not were pressure builds. Not the all-ins that you are speaking of.
Did we watch different games? I primarily watch Koreans play since that fits my schedule better. I am also more familiar with the players in Korea and, if I have a choice, choose to watch them instead of the foreigners.
What do you watch?
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On March 21 2018 01:42 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 01:16 Ej_ wrote:On March 21 2018 01:09 Beelzebub1 wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison. At hatchery tech, it was never used besides all-ins in ZvP. No, ladder experience of anyone who isn't a progamer isn't relevant. My memory says that hatchery tech overlord drops more often than not were pressure builds. Not the all-ins that you are speaking of. Did we watch different games? I primarily watch Koreans play since that fits my schedule better. I am also more familiar with the players in Korea and, if I have a choice, choose to watch them instead of the foreigners. What do you watch?
Have you watched any games over the past three months? Koreans and foreigners zergs alike have been all-inning with drops non-stop since 4.0. You rarely is ever merely see pressure. Unless your definition of 'pressure' is very very loose.
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Cricketer12
United States14003 Posts
On March 21 2018 01:42 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 01:16 Ej_ wrote:On March 21 2018 01:09 Beelzebub1 wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison. At hatchery tech, it was never used besides all-ins in ZvP. No, ladder experience of anyone who isn't a progamer isn't relevant. My memory says that hatchery tech overlord drops more often than not were pressure builds. Not the all-ins that you are speaking of. Did we watch different games? I primarily watch Koreans play since that fits my schedule better. I am also more familiar with the players in Korea and, if I have a choice, choose to watch them instead of the foreigners. What do you watch?
I haven't watched starcraft in months and I know better than this lol
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On March 21 2018 02:01 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 01:42 Drfilip wrote:On March 21 2018 01:16 Ej_ wrote:On March 21 2018 01:09 Beelzebub1 wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison. At hatchery tech, it was never used besides all-ins in ZvP. No, ladder experience of anyone who isn't a progamer isn't relevant. My memory says that hatchery tech overlord drops more often than not were pressure builds. Not the all-ins that you are speaking of. Did we watch different games? I primarily watch Koreans play since that fits my schedule better. I am also more familiar with the players in Korea and, if I have a choice, choose to watch them instead of the foreigners. What do you watch? I haven't watched starcraft in months and I know better than this lol
Where is you passion ?
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Cricketer12
United States14003 Posts
On March 21 2018 02:08 Mun_Su wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 02:01 Cricketer12 wrote:On March 21 2018 01:42 Drfilip wrote:On March 21 2018 01:16 Ej_ wrote:On March 21 2018 01:09 Beelzebub1 wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? Except doing Overlord drops wasn't an all in, it was a way to see what the Protoss was doing while applying pressure at the same time, horrible comparison. At hatchery tech, it was never used besides all-ins in ZvP. No, ladder experience of anyone who isn't a progamer isn't relevant. My memory says that hatchery tech overlord drops more often than not were pressure builds. Not the all-ins that you are speaking of. Did we watch different games? I primarily watch Koreans play since that fits my schedule better. I am also more familiar with the players in Korea and, if I have a choice, choose to watch them instead of the foreigners. What do you watch? I haven't watched starcraft in months and I know better than this lol Where is you passion ?
Lol passion. In this day and age...
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HerO smacked down the Nydus rush with a perfectly-timed stasis ward, which trapped the queens and a couple roaches, allowing him to crush the other half of the force, kill the nydus, and then kill the queens. The problem is going pure void-ray. Just get an oracle and drop a timely stasis ward.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On March 21 2018 02:21 ThunderJunk wrote:
HerO smacked down the Nydus rush with a perfectly-timed stasis ward, which trapped the queens and a couple roaches, allowing him to crush the other half of the force, kill the nydus, and then kill the queens. The problem is going pure void-ray. Just get an oracle and drop a timely stasis ward.
Easier said than done when usually your oracle is across the map. The issues with nydus are 1) it's very hard to scout and 2) even if you do, unless you get the perfect stasis ward off, you're not killing the nydus. Even if you do, if enough roaches and queens get out you lose to the followup nydus anyway. It's a rough build vs SG openers. But hey, this patch addresses that exact thing. If nydus continues to kill people it will need a nerf.
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On March 20 2018 15:06 hiroshOne wrote:
Every freaking race has something that if not SCOUTED is just an autowin vs his opponent. Raging about nydus, or shitty ravager build is just nonsense. I could rage on bunker rush, cannon rush or freaking shield battery/voidray cheese. Most of them, if scouted are totally defendable. That,'s just how Starcraft works.
With nydus, it only works if Protoss is greedy with his air units and pumping workers behind them.
The next step would be nerfing Immortals/Storm/or most probably ChronoBoost. As Immortals are countering every Zerg units besides Broodlords, Few Storms which are instant spell can extinguish unlimited supply of Zerg and ChronoBoost is the main issue in PvT, where Protoss has 2/2 before Terran is capable of 1/1- which in my ooinion is just ballshit.
To be honest i cinceraly doubt if Protoss would stop StarGate openings now when overlord drops are nerfed. They will still abuse that. The only difference is, that Zerg would not be able to punish that.
How are Chrono's OP? Yeah they make our stuff pop out a lot faster, But taking away Chrono would mean that Terrans would have reactors to make two units at a time, and zerg would have injects to have a minimum six larva at every hatchery. That makes no sense. Taking away the chrono would put toss at a huge disadvantage to the other races. Can you imagine zerg making nine drones at a time, terran putting down mules and making SCVs at the same time, while Protoss can make like three or four Probes. Chrono OP? Please try again. Also if they have storm, half way decent micro can keep the Protoss from extinguishing "unlimited supply of Zerg," do you see the pros losing entire armies at a time from the storms? No, because they can micro. And finally, Immortals, they counter Hydras and Roaches,and with enough of them, Ultralisks. That's it.
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EPT
