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Let's tone down the vitriol here just a bit. It's okay to have some heated discussion about balance (especially in this kind of thread), but I fear you guys might start crossing some lines soon. - Wax |
On March 21 2018 06:45 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 06:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On March 21 2018 06:30 Ej_ wrote:On March 21 2018 06:05 Boggyb wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. If you're not a fan of playing defensive and reactive, Zerg is not for you. Without fundamental changes to the vs. Zerg matchups, Zerg cannot be allowed to play either defensive or aggressive and have a balanced game. You can do literally whatever you want below GM progamer level I think you underestimate how often diamond players cheese, you basically have to play the meta at least to some level. You have to play the meta in Diamond league if you are at Diamond-level skill. Any progamer can do whatever the fuck they want in Diamond and still win, because they have the sheer mechanics to overpower whatever disadvantage they play at
There's no "meta" if neither you nor your opponent know how to play the game.
As long as you have a sound gameplan, it doesn't really matter your BO or strategy is sub-optimal since 90% of time your experience doing it much outweighs the experience your opponent has had dealing with it.
Saying that Zerg can't be played aggressively is particularly funny as half the Zergs on ladder all-in on 50 or less drones every game.
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Third game soO vs Stats- Protoss everytime opens with Stargate. What a shocker. Seems to me that Droperlord nerf really opened wide scale of openings for Protoss. XDDD what a joke.
User was warned for this post.
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On March 21 2018 19:17 hiroshOne wrote:
Third game soO vs Stats- Protoss everytime opens with Stargate. What a shocker. Seems to me that Droperlord nerf really opened wide scale of openings for Protoss. XDDD what a joke.
Considering they had 2 weeks to prepare and the patch was live 3 days before the match, it's crazy that Stats didn't wait for the last 2 days to prepare all his builds for a GSL Semifinals match against soO, i mean, WHAT A SHOCKER.
You're being ridiculous, just stop..
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What a shocker- Protoss won with ballshit builds once again.
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Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
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On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote:
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
I blame those damn Ravens.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote:
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
How much does the bracket luck affect this?
I mean - imagine the top TvZ player being on the side with a top PvT player. If such player gets good bye and then this PvT beast loses against the Zerg in the finals, can we blame balance or bracket luck?
I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced, but making accusation based on the tournament winners is not fair IMO. Player form changes, player favorite MU changes too. Look at Maru, he can beat top Zergs but in the past got ass kicked by much worse Terrans as his TvT was shitty.
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I think it's high time that Zealot charge upgrade cost returns to 200/200.
Poll: Choose which you prefer to see next patchReturn charge cost to 200/200 (2) 18% Split charge into two upgrades. (9) 82% 11 total votes Your vote: Choose which you prefer to see next patch (Vote): Return charge cost to 200/200
(Vote): Split charge into two upgrades.
+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2015 22:17 summerloud wrote:pretty much everyone right now agrees that the 30dmg on impact made chargelots too strong in pretty much all situations. however, at the same time, this upgrade really makes zealots viable in late game, and gives protoss a deadly later game harass option. so how about separating charge/dmg on impact and movement speed? this way, zealots could be useful without being overpowered earlier, by having the movement speed upgrade at the twilight council, making it cheaper (100/100?), and faster to research. the charge/dmg on impact upgrade could be moved to the dark shrine, adding another purpose to this building, since dark templars got an indirect nerf with the removal of mules and the resulting abundance of scan energy for terran. also, lore-wise this change would work very well, leaving the movement speed upgrade where it was in BW, and adding a deadly upgrade at the dark shrine that results from the input of dark templars into the khala. so, to sum it up: - movement speed upgrade at twilight council for 100/100, reduce research time, maybe even increase movement speed - charge/damage on impact upgrade at dark shrine for 200/200, making it late game only Poll: is charge too strong right now in the beta?yes (56) 67% no (17) 20% maybe (10) 12% 83 total votes Your vote: is charge too strong right now in the beta? (Vote): yes
(Vote): no
(Vote): maybe
Poll: how should charge be reworked?get rid of charge completely and replace it with a pure speed upgrade. (28) 32% not at all, it's fine. (22) 25% reduce but keep damage on impact. (19) 22% this post's suggestion. (13) 15% remove damage on impact. (5) 6% buff or add counters to mass zealots. (1) 1% 88 total votes Your vote: how should charge be reworked? (Vote): not at all, it's fine.
(Vote): remove damage on impact.
(Vote): reduce but keep damage on impact.
(Vote): get rid of charge completely and replace it with a pure speed upgrade.
(Vote): buff or add counters to mass zealots.
(Vote): this post's suggestion.
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On March 22 2018 00:05 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote:
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba. How much does the bracket luck affect this? I mean - imagine the top TvZ player being on the side with a top PvT player. If such player gets good bye and then this PvT beast loses against the Zerg in the finals, can we blame balance or bracket luck? I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced, but making accusation based on the tournament winners is not fair IMO. Player form changes, player favorite MU changes too. Look at Maru, he can beat top Zergs but in the past got ass kicked by much worse Terrans as his TvT was shitty.
You cannot talk about balance without talking about racial distribution. The two are tied so closely together that they are dependant on each other.
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I'm laughing my a** off, seeing already people asking for zealot nerfs.
So, because soO teched directly from 3 queens and 8 zerglings to hydralisks 2x in a row without scouting the push, it should be nerfed ?
Keep going at it, that's the spirit !
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On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote:
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba.
Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it
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On March 22 2018 01:27 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote:
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba. Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it
Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year.
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On March 22 2018 01:32 LTCM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 01:27 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote:
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba. Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year.
He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL.
GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize.
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On March 22 2018 02:23 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 01:32 LTCM wrote:On March 22 2018 01:27 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote:
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba. Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year. He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL. GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize.
I'm not agreeing with LTCM in any way because i'm not fond of saying
"X race is imba because they won X out of the last X tournaments"
but just to answer that point, how does the fact that a race didn't win a particular tournament changes the fact that zerg won 5 out of the last 6 major tournaments ?
It's like saying "Yes Protoss won 19 out of the last 20 tournaments but they never won WESG so Protoss is fine" or "Only Terrans have won WESG so Terran is certainly broken".
If you're aiming to convince people of something, that's not the way to do it.
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On March 22 2018 02:46 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 02:23 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 22 2018 01:32 LTCM wrote:On March 22 2018 01:27 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote:
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba. Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year. He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL. GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize. I'm not agreeing with LTCM in any way because i'm not fond of saying "X race is imba because they won X out of the last X tournaments" but just to answer that point, how does the fact that a race didn't win a particular tournament changes the fact that zerg won 5 out of the last 6 major tournaments ? It's like saying "Yes Protoss won 19 out of the last 20 tournaments but they never won WESG so Protoss is fine" or "Only Terrans have won WESG so Terran is certainly broken". If you're aiming to convince people of something, that's not the way to do it.
You can climb many moutains it is still not the same than climbing Everest
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On March 22 2018 03:00 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 02:46 Snarosc wrote:On March 22 2018 02:23 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 22 2018 01:32 LTCM wrote:On March 22 2018 01:27 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote:
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba. Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year. He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL. GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize. I'm not agreeing with LTCM in any way because i'm not fond of saying "X race is imba because they won X out of the last X tournaments" but just to answer that point, how does the fact that a race didn't win a particular tournament changes the fact that zerg won 5 out of the last 6 major tournaments ? It's like saying "Yes Protoss won 19 out of the last 20 tournaments but they never won WESG so Protoss is fine" or "Only Terrans have won WESG so Terran is certainly broken". If you're aiming to convince people of something, that's not the way to do it. You can climb many moutains it is still not the same than climbing Everest
Who said GSL is the Everest of SC2 tournaments ?
GSL is supposedly harder than Blizzcon because it has only koreans.
But Blizzcon is harder to win because there's only 1 per year vs. 3 GSL.
This is just your personal opinion / just fits your agenda in this case to defend your race.
But Like I said before, not an argument.
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China6331 Posts
On March 22 2018 03:00 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 02:46 Snarosc wrote:On March 22 2018 02:23 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 22 2018 01:32 LTCM wrote:On March 22 2018 01:27 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote:
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba. Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year. He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL. GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize. I'm not agreeing with LTCM in any way because i'm not fond of saying "X race is imba because they won X out of the last X tournaments" but just to answer that point, how does the fact that a race didn't win a particular tournament changes the fact that zerg won 5 out of the last 6 major tournaments ? It's like saying "Yes Protoss won 19 out of the last 20 tournaments but they never won WESG so Protoss is fine" or "Only Terrans have won WESG so Terran is certainly broken". If you're aiming to convince people of something, that's not the way to do it. You can climb many moutains it is still not the same than climbing Everest
Everest is the highest mountain however it is not the hardest. Some mountains are significantly more dangerous.
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On March 22 2018 04:01 digmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 03:00 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 22 2018 02:46 Snarosc wrote:On March 22 2018 02:23 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 22 2018 01:32 LTCM wrote:On March 22 2018 01:27 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote:
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba. Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year. He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL. GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize. I'm not agreeing with LTCM in any way because i'm not fond of saying "X race is imba because they won X out of the last X tournaments" but just to answer that point, how does the fact that a race didn't win a particular tournament changes the fact that zerg won 5 out of the last 6 major tournaments ? It's like saying "Yes Protoss won 19 out of the last 20 tournaments but they never won WESG so Protoss is fine" or "Only Terrans have won WESG so Terran is certainly broken". If you're aiming to convince people of something, that's not the way to do it. You can climb many moutains it is still not the same than climbing Everest Everest is the highest mountain however it is not the hardest. Some mountains are significantly more dangerous.
which one ?
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On March 22 2018 04:06 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 04:01 digmouse wrote:On March 22 2018 03:00 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 22 2018 02:46 Snarosc wrote:On March 22 2018 02:23 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 22 2018 01:32 LTCM wrote:On March 22 2018 01:27 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote:
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba. Yeah but zerg hasn't won GSL since 2015, when life won it Man I'm getting old. I must have dreamed of rouge's gsl st win last year. He won the supertournament which isn't the real GSL. GSL lasts 5 months, has around 150k casprize, while the supertournament is just a small event that last 4 days and has a 25k cashprize. I'm not agreeing with LTCM in any way because i'm not fond of saying "X race is imba because they won X out of the last X tournaments" but just to answer that point, how does the fact that a race didn't win a particular tournament changes the fact that zerg won 5 out of the last 6 major tournaments ? It's like saying "Yes Protoss won 19 out of the last 20 tournaments but they never won WESG so Protoss is fine" or "Only Terrans have won WESG so Terran is certainly broken". If you're aiming to convince people of something, that's not the way to do it. You can climb many moutains it is still not the same than climbing Everest Everest is the highest mountain however it is not the hardest. Some mountains are significantly more dangerous. which one ?
K2, also in the Himalayas
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On March 22 2018 00:09 KR_4EVR wrote:I think it's high time that Zealot charge upgrade cost returns to 200/200. Poll: Choose which you prefer to see next patchReturn charge cost to 200/200 (2) 18% Split charge into two upgrades. (9) 82% 11 total votes Your vote: Choose which you prefer to see next patch (Vote): Return charge cost to 200/200
(Vote): Split charge into two upgrades.
+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2015 22:17 summerloud wrote:pretty much everyone right now agrees that the 30dmg on impact made chargelots too strong in pretty much all situations. however, at the same time, this upgrade really makes zealots viable in late game, and gives protoss a deadly later game harass option. so how about separating charge/dmg on impact and movement speed? this way, zealots could be useful without being overpowered earlier, by having the movement speed upgrade at the twilight council, making it cheaper (100/100?), and faster to research. the charge/dmg on impact upgrade could be moved to the dark shrine, adding another purpose to this building, since dark templars got an indirect nerf with the removal of mules and the resulting abundance of scan energy for terran. also, lore-wise this change would work very well, leaving the movement speed upgrade where it was in BW, and adding a deadly upgrade at the dark shrine that results from the input of dark templars into the khala. so, to sum it up: - movement speed upgrade at twilight council for 100/100, reduce research time, maybe even increase movement speed - charge/damage on impact upgrade at dark shrine for 200/200, making it late game only Poll: is charge too strong right now in the beta?yes (56) 67% no (17) 20% maybe (10) 12% 83 total votes Your vote: is charge too strong right now in the beta? (Vote): yes
(Vote): no
(Vote): maybe
Poll: how should charge be reworked?get rid of charge completely and replace it with a pure speed upgrade. (28) 32% not at all, it's fine. (22) 25% reduce but keep damage on impact. (19) 22% this post's suggestion. (13) 15% remove damage on impact. (5) 6% buff or add counters to mass zealots. (1) 1% 88 total votes Your vote: how should charge be reworked? (Vote): not at all, it's fine.
(Vote): remove damage on impact.
(Vote): reduce but keep damage on impact.
(Vote): get rid of charge completely and replace it with a pure speed upgrade.
(Vote): buff or add counters to mass zealots.
(Vote): this post's suggestion.
That's some unbiased poll.
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EPT
