Let's tone down the vitriol here just a bit. It's okay to have some heated discussion about balance (especially in this kind of thread), but I fear you guys might start crossing some lines soon. - Wax
On March 24 2018 23:35 hiroshOne wrote: "Midgame mindgames of Maru"- hahaha
U mean as he turtle up behind siegetanks and massed Ravens? Mark my words- Avilo will laugh at his stream that Maru took his builds.
Dark coukdn't do shit to ghosts because of 12+ ravens spamming AAM everywhere and on everything. That's how this unit works and in my opinion it's everything that we don't want in this game- massable unit that spams free unavoidable dmg on everything around, countering everything. Blizzard knew this is a problem, and yet, they decided not to implement this needed nerf to that unit. This is on them.
HAHAHA. Well, i didn't wait long:
Is that what u Terrans want with your lategame? :-)
On March 24 2018 23:35 hiroshOne wrote: "Midgame mindgames of Maru"- hahaha
U mean as he turtle up behind siegetanks and massed Ravens? Mark my words- Avilo will laugh at his stream that Maru took his builds.
Dark coukdn't do shit to ghosts because of 12+ ravens spamming AAM everywhere and on everything. That's how this unit works and in my opinion it's everything that we don't want in this game- massable unit that spams free unavoidable dmg on everything around, countering everything. Blizzard knew this is a problem, and yet, they decided not to implement this needed nerf to that unit. This is on them.
On March 26 2018 03:54 KR_4EVR wrote: More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
because it's a game of multitasking, not sim city manager
I don't see how being able to see more would change that. If someone wants to see more and is willing to accept the disadvantages that come from that (being precise gets harder the smaller everything is.), that should be their choice.
On March 26 2018 03:54 KR_4EVR wrote: More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
Having an option to zoom out even further while observing should be fine, but never ever touch player vision. It simply would make the game too easy (part of the pressure on players is that they don't have comfortable vision across their territory at all times), especially considering the asymmetrical race design, Zerg would just be so ridiculously overpowered...
On March 26 2018 03:54 KR_4EVR wrote: More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
because it's a game of multitasking, not sim city manager
I don't see how being able to see more would change that. If someone wants to see more and is willing to accept the disadvantages that come from that (being precise gets harder the smaller everything is.), that should be their choice.
It's an esport, so same conditions for everyone should be kinda mandatory (being able to disable skins showing on my client would go along with that). While being disadvantageous on the microing end (esp. for P and T) it would create an enormous advantage for Z players since that's just how the race is designed:
Map vision/map control via creep and Overlord placement
Building units in waves, generally favoring quantity over quality
Zerg is all about how you engage stuff, setting up flanks and position your chunks of units properly is a huge part of their playstyle, shiny micro isn't as important as for the other races
On March 24 2018 23:35 hiroshOne wrote: "Midgame mindgames of Maru"- hahaha
U mean as he turtle up behind siegetanks and massed Ravens? Mark my words- Avilo will laugh at his stream that Maru took his builds.
Dark coukdn't do shit to ghosts because of 12+ ravens spamming AAM everywhere and on everything. That's how this unit works and in my opinion it's everything that we don't want in this game- massable unit that spams free unavoidable dmg on everything around, countering everything. Blizzard knew this is a problem, and yet, they decided not to implement this needed nerf to that unit. This is on them.
Is that what u Terrans want with your lategame? :-)
Dude, stop you aren't helping yourself with that, just because Avilo claims it it doesn't matter at all, he was doing the same thing back when Gumiho won GSL, you are just throwin a tantrum at this point.
On March 23 2018 01:21 Ransomstarcraft wrote: Do you mean "most stable?"
Yeah Terran has a sort of "guaranteed" income because of mules that can lead to greater resilience, but Mules exist because SCV's are required to build all structures as well as repair. I still stand by my statement.
Terran economy grows sequentially, protoss sequentially plus chronoboost, Zerg grows exponentially. This is why there are so many ZvT Roach/Ravager timings that can just squash Terran. "You built 3 CC's and had 1 too few tanks. You're dead."
Yeah, Well play safer then most of the ravager timings are in response to greedy play. Skip a tank to go quicker bases you are asking for it.
On March 26 2018 03:54 KR_4EVR wrote: More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
Having an option to zoom out even further while observing should be fine, but never ever touch player vision. It simply would make the game too easy (part of the pressure on players is that they don't have comfortable vision across their territory at all times), especially considering the asymmetrical race design, Zerg would just be so ridiculously overpowered...
Agreed, takes half the fun of being zerg. Would lower the skill cap immensely as well. Just kill harassment style play, and back stabs.
On March 26 2018 03:54 KR_4EVR wrote: More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
Having an option to zoom out even further while observing should be fine, but never ever touch player vision. It simply would make the game too easy (part of the pressure on players is that they don't have comfortable vision across their territory at all times), especially considering the asymmetrical race design, Zerg would just be so ridiculously overpowered...
Agreed, takes half the fun of being zerg. Would lower the skill cap immensely as well. Just kill harassment style play, and back stabs.
Why don't we make the vision even smaller to make the game harder to play & buff harassment, backstabs because players won't be able to see what's happening?
If we had to choose between vision being 1.5x smaller or 1.5x larger i'd take the larger one any day, raising the level of play is usually a good thing IMO. It becomes an issue when too many players are too close to the skill cap of the game for it to be possible for any of them to shine but that's not currently a huge problem in SC2.
What I find really frustrating as a Zerg player, is that you have no way to deal with energy units. While terran has EMP and Protoss has feedback, Zerg has to rely on bleeding out the energy of their opponent, or zonning out these spell casters with (typically) BroodLord. I agree it would be problematic to give an anti energy spell to a Zerg unit as it would be really easy to hardcounter armies that takes the opponent a lot of time and ressources to build, it could be given to the Viper ( as a "naive" example, changing consume so it can be used against energy units instead ) as it is a late game unit which cost a lot and takes a lot of supply so difficult to mass.
On March 29 2018 19:20 Vanadiel wrote: What I find really frustrating as a Zerg player, is that you have no way to deal with energy units. While terran has EMP and Protoss has feedback, Zerg has to rely on bleeding out the energy of their opponent, or zoning out these spellcasters with (typically) BroodLord. I agree it would be problematic to give an anti-energy spell to a Zerg unit as it would be really easy to hard-counter armies that takes the opponent a lot of time and resources to build, it could be given to the Viper ( as a "naive" example, changing consume so it can be used against energy units instead ) as it is a late game unit which cost a lot and takes a lot of supply so difficult to mass.
How about styling with infestors to neural ghost/ht then emp/fb or storm the rest? Yes I know, good theory bro but virtually impossible to pull off in practice - esp. vT atm with the raven cloud overhead. It would need a complex series of army movements with a few spread corruptors w/ viper(s) to force the air back, then using some ling/bling or locust fodder to distract while the infestor(s) move in.
In general, I'm with the camp that thinks sc2 design shouldn't enable mass air vs. mass air comps to dominate, the golden armada (stop them before they get there!) being the only exception . For T I'd like to see 3-4 BCs & Ravens in the late game, and zerg being able to use 6-10 broods that can actually be supported by a ground-based army, not requiring mass corruptor.
With that in mind, I'd agree with any changes to the Raven that nudge it into being a support unit, with perhaps 3-5 being useful in your army and too many leaving you open to a techswitch or counter play. What effect would changing the AAM to have a higher single target damage with only the anti-armor effect having splash? That way, mass ravens would be good vs. a mostly T3 army but zerg could use ling/bane/hydra to overwhelm a comp that gets too many. With this though, you would need to either buff the viking vs T and P, or tone down the corruptor's tanki-nes slightly, maybe even give the Yamato slightly more splash instead. Could also simply increase the supply or tone down its speed, or acceleration an touch to give half a second more to identify and split away from the target.
As for speed-banshee's, I think we'll see zergs start using an infestor or viper together with spores + queen at vulnerable bases. A couple of fungal + PB could really make the T think twice, and as zerg how many times do you need to have a base denied before that investment is worth it? Theory-crafting out loud here but what about a queen ability that slows down single targets, maybe available at T2.5? I guess it overlaps too much with the infestor, but would mean, fast-moving banshee squadrons liable to losing at least 1-2 banshee's being caught by hydras and queens at vulnerable bases.
Ultimately, more time is probably needed. For starters, I don't think any pros are really elite yet at splitting and fanning with smaller groups of air units, nor do I think Zergs and Protoss have adjusted to the current AMM and the strat is not that old yet. We still see death-ball air clumps of all races, airtoss/corruptors/vikings and zergs flying in with all of their corruptors at once, rather than using them in split waves (think Life's pioneering of ling/bling waves vs window mines at the start of HOTS).
That said, Maru's brand of late-game TvZ does look pretty complete and very scary at the moment, we saw Dark trying a few different things in the GSL semi's but the AMM seemed just a little too good vs. everything.. How can zerg's force a lopsided comp and employ their trademark tech switches when one 'good-vs-all-comps-unit' can be massed. I know this can also be said of the carrier but its higher cost and build time definitely render them riskier to mass.
OR we could just tone down all air...
As for the zoom out.. lol. The relatively small vision size is a defining feature of high-level limited army RTS games and IMO, when it comes SC2, it is essential for ensuring the skill cap remains high because of the simplified mechanics compared with its predecessor. Forcing an opponent to look away from where they should be looking is one of the techniques that really separates the top level pro's from the rest of the pack. Maru and TY are the masters of this heavy multi-task based style, and really take it to the next level in of their some games.. Any small tempo advantage that gets them on the front foot turns quickly into an endless succession of forced responses constantly diverting the opponent's attention away from the next, sustaining their initiative until the gg is called soon after. I've often wanted a slightly bigger mini-map but that's because I don't watch it as much as I should.
Might be a fun mod for casual play but would do nothing for long term skill development.
eventually that Raven missile thing has to be nerfed or removed ... what to give Terran to compensate for this... i have no idea.
The Raven needs to be a support unit not a flying, magical, offensive spell machine.
"they say that Raven is the flock's guide... .down alienation's barren path.... the truth is ... i walk alone... quote the Raven... nevermore", Scott Levy, March 31st 1998, Monday Nitro... the day SC1 was released.
On March 26 2018 03:54 KR_4EVR wrote: More than balance, I want a game where I can see 2-3 bases on one screen (if I want). Could someone please address why we can't zoom out? I wouldn't mind paying with lower graphics. Camera hotkeys don't cut it.
Poll: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
I Support this Petition (9)
26%
I Reject this Petition (26)
74%
35 total votes
Your vote: Call for Blizzard to Introduce Option for Larger Field-of-View
(Vote): I Support this Petition (Vote): I Reject this Petition
Edit: I mean, even casters like Tasteless and Artosis are complaining on live stream about not being able to see everything happening at once.
I would support this feature - though technically the minimap kinda does the same thing already.
If im not mistaken, i believe there use to be some hacks that let players do this.
It's difficult to play Terran now. You need exceptional control to win with Terran. Maru is the only Terran with this exceptional control now so he is the exception. Just look at Rotti's review of how Maru was down against sOs at IEM and Maru was about to lose, but Maru pulls off the perfect engagement (literally perfect in Rotti's words) to beat sOs:
No other Terran can pull off Maru's control right now. Today against Stats, Maru was instantly cloaking his Banshees the moment they were under attack, to save the Banshee. And that money EMP Maru put on Stats's 3 High Templar today in game 6. Why was Stats clumping his 3 High Templars in the first place when ghosts are on the field? Do other top Protoss players clump their High Templars when ghosts are on the field? That was just lazy and poor control by Stats.
Innovation, Byun, and Ty are still struggling right now. The other top Korean Terrans just aren't pulling rabbits out of their hats. I don't know how you control your units better than Maru, for a human being. I think Maru will eventually come back down to earth (no way he maintains this level of control in every tournament). And when Maru comes back down to earth, I think Terran will continue to struggle.
Yeah, Terran is probably the hardest race to play right now. Not everybody can micro and control their units like Maru. Not even Innovation, Byun, or Ty can replicate Maru.
Depends on leagues. Below GM all u need is good timed a-move to kill Zerg. But u loose in PvT. Zerg dies from Protoss allins too. Mass Chargelots on 2 base 8 gateways with 2 immortals- try to defend it without loosing your third :-(
EPT
Yes I know, good theory bro but virtually impossible to pull off in practice - esp. vT atm with the raven cloud overhead. It would need a complex series of army movements with a few spread corruptors w/ viper(s) to force the air back, then using some ling/bling or locust fodder to distract while the infestor(s) move in. 
. For T I'd like to see 3-4 BCs & Ravens in the late game, and zerg being able to use 6-10 broods that can actually be supported by a ground-based army, not requiring mass corruptor. 
