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Let's tone down the vitriol here just a bit. It's okay to have some heated discussion about balance (especially in this kind of thread), but I fear you guys might start crossing some lines soon. - Wax |
On March 22 2018 19:44 kajtarp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 19:05 Snarosc wrote:On March 22 2018 18:17 hiroshOne wrote:
Classic stomped Serral- the best foreign Zerg on IEM Katowice semis. Whatever u say about "foreign Zergs facerolling korean protosses on regular basis"- is just false. See that's the problem with you. I say "Foreign zergs stomp korean protoss on a regular basis" and what do you answer ? It's not right because Classic beat Serral THAT ONE TIME.. Yeah sure, and you also forget to mention that in that very same tournament, Serral previously ended Zest and Trap (As well as Neeb even tho he's not korean but undoubtedly the best foreign protoss) Let's also forget that later in WESG Serral also took down Classic 3-1, but as soon as he ran into a Terran (Maru) he got stomped 3-0. I mean come on, as good as Serral is, he takes down korean protosses way more than korean terrans or zergs. Scarlett ? Same. Elazer ? Same. Again, no disrespect to any of them, but they'd not be as strong as they are today if not for how ridiculous the PvZ matchup is. I'm sorry but your example is wrong. Zest is simply far from his top form. Classic was devastated because he didn't make the finals at wesg. You could notice he was giving up mentally vs Serral and it has nothing to do with balance. Also it's obvious that foreign Zergs are better against Toss. Foreign scene has no Terrans similar to alive,Inno,Maru,TY. The only decent T is Special, while foreign scene has much more good Protosses and Zergs.
Scarlett is training in korea since month and have access to korean ladder and players.
Showtime is the only really good Eu protoss and uthermal is not far behind in term level. In usa you have Neeb and then nothing, in terran you have Major and Kelazhur....
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On March 22 2018 18:53 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 18:10 Snarosc wrote:On March 22 2018 17:09 insitelol wrote:On March 22 2018 16:38 hiroshOne wrote:On March 22 2018 15:24 insitelol wrote:God, that zerg whine is over the board. It will amuse you guys, but the fact you facerolled over Protoss since LoTV spamming hydra 24/7 doesnt mean your skill suddenly increased. Guess what, MU just was freaking imbalanced (+1 range hydras anyone?), so welcome back to earth, boys. Time to start playing the actual game. If 43% WR, Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be. Just listen to the arguments: Protoss have "super strong wall" and "sentries", are we in 2010?, ravagers anyone? "We cant drop with tier1 tech" - did you actually know the other races get access to drop at tier2? and they cant just park ovies and lings at the cliff right before evo finishes. Pathetic. On March 22 2018 15:18 hiroshOne wrote:
I think Chrono boost tone down, should be next thing adressed by Blizzard. It would balance not only PvZ but mostly TvP where fast upgrades of Protoss are making bio obsolete. Protoss players whine about ZvP winrates but are refusing to acknowledge poor winrates of Terrans vs Protoss. The only one whining and "not acknowledging" facts here is you. PvZ is 43%, PvT is 49%. In any case, "lets nerf the protoss that is getting destroyed by zerg, because terran is having hard time vs protoss" logic is awesome. " Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be" Hahahaha, what a failed argument. Isn't it how sOs wins most of his games? With BS allins and cheeses? sOs is the embodiment of God of StarCraft on earth, while Scarlett is just an ordinary foreigner. Feel the difference? I mean, the simple fact that this is what we've come down to.. Comparing foreigners with koreans just because foreign zergs often steamrolls on korean protoss players and we think it's normal.. (And yes korean protoss only because the winrate of Foreign zergs vs Korean terrans or zergs must be something like 1 victory out of 10 matches).. This, by itself, shows there's something wrong with the matchup. I mean no disrespect to foreign zerg players, but they are still incapable of breaking korean Terrans or Zergs on a regular basis, like they are capable with the korean Protoss. PvZ has been at a ridiculously low level (43-45% for months, and overall below 50% for at least a two-digit number of months) and yet most of the whine in this thread is coming from Zergs thinking Protoss should be nerfed.. I'm lost beyond words at this point. Zergs in general have been having a rough time against terran, there are only a few zerga that cab take terran on consistently at the moment.
Statistics, ladder and tournament results would disagree with you on that one.
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I think the biggest change in LOTV that has affected TvZ in particular is the economy change. Terran is the stable race, not being able to build workers in bulk like the zerg or to chronoboost a certain element like the protoss. What this means is that when Terran units come out, they need to be on the offense, especially in the early game.
This means is that any Terran harass is doubly important in LOTV, meaning it must be very successful or you are behind as the Terran. This to me is the primary explanation for why TvZ has been in the state that it is in LOTV, especially for foreign Terrans who in general don't have the APM and Micro of Korean Terrans.
I think moving overlord drops to Lair is a good decision, since Zerg has more harassment/aggression options than the other two races in the early game. Maru vs. Dark at WESG was a great series, and in part I think that is attributable to Terran not being on a timer because of a reasonable late game. If the Raven is changed, some other reasonable late game option should be immediately implemented for Terran.
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On March 23 2018 01:00 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
I think the biggest change in LOTV that has affected TvZ in particular is the economy change. Terran is the stable race, not being able to build workers in bulk like the zerg or to chronoboost a certain element like the protoss. What this means is that when Terran units come out, they need to be on the offense, especially in the early game.
Terran is the least stable of the three races in terms of economy in my opinion, because of Mules.
If you kill a bunch of Probes, it's game over. If you kill a bunch of Drones and force action so they can't replenish them or if they don't have the larva, it's game over. But Mules provide a base income on minerals that allows Terran to comeback in so many situations that Protoss couldn't and Zerg can't.
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Do you mean "most stable?"
Yeah Terran has a sort of "guaranteed" income because of mules that can lead to greater resilience, but Mules exist because SCV's are required to build all structures as well as repair. I still stand by my statement.
Terran economy grows sequentially, protoss sequentially plus chronoboost, Zerg grows exponentially. This is why there are so many ZvT Roach/Ravager timings that can just squash Terran. "You built 3 CC's and had 1 too few tanks. You're dead."
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On March 23 2018 01:00 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
This means is that any Terran harass is doubly important in LOTV, meaning it must be very successful or you are behind as the Terran. This to me is the primary explanation for why TvZ has been in the state that it is in LOTV, especially for foreign Terrans who in general don't have the APM and Micro of Korean Terrans.
and there is the rub.
Blizzard should balance for the top level of play. If Terrans beneath that level of play are getting defeated by others beneath their level of play that is too bad for them. Now, if no Terran alive can break the top 10.... well that is a balance problem.
I'm a higher rated Zerg player than Terran player. I don't care though. Terran is by far my favourite race to play so i play it the most.
balancing a diverse race RTS game at several different levels of play simultaneously is impossible. Any one getting into SC2 in a hard core way should know this going in... and if they don't ... they'll learn the hard way.
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Ravens are still useless vs Protoss for gas cost.
Try 10 Tempest slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Try 8 Carriers slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Protoss air still hard counter Terran including Ravens.
The only scenario where Ravens beats Tempest/Carriers is when you get an absurd amount of Ravens like 25+ or if the Protoss player does not spread out his army at all. That never happens in a real game though.
So basically Ravens may be OP in silver league but against a competent opponent they are not that strong and they certainly do not counter Protoss air.
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On March 23 2018 03:13 MockHamill wrote:
Ravens are still useless vs Protoss for gas cost.
Try 10 Tempest slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Try 8 Carriers slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Protoss air still hard counter Terran including Ravens.
The only scenario where Ravens beats Tempest/Carriers is when you get an absurd amount of Ravens like 25+ or if the Protoss player does not spread out his army at all. That never happens in a real game though.
So basically Ravens may be OP in silver league but against a competent opponent they are not that strong and they certainly do not counter Protoss air.
Units with a higher cost beat units with a lower cost in even numbers, more news at 11.
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On March 23 2018 05:38 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2018 03:13 MockHamill wrote:
Ravens are still useless vs Protoss for gas cost.
Try 10 Tempest slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Try 8 Carriers slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Protoss air still hard counter Terran including Ravens.
The only scenario where Ravens beats Tempest/Carriers is when you get an absurd amount of Ravens like 25+ or if the Protoss player does not spread out his army at all. That never happens in a real game though.
So basically Ravens may be OP in silver league but against a competent opponent they are not that strong and they certainly do not counter Protoss air. Units with a higher cost beat units with a lower cost in even numbers, more news at 11.
At 11:
MechHamill at 4k mmr plays higher level TvPs than Maru vs Stats
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Czech Republic12130 Posts
On March 23 2018 01:00 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
I think the biggest change in LOTV that has affected TvZ in particular is the economy change. Terran is the stable race, not being able to build workers in bulk like the zerg or to chronoboost a certain element like the protoss. What this means is that when Terran units come out, they need to be on the offense, especially in the early game.
Actually it's the stimpack. Now it hits too late in both TvP and TvZ. Against Zerg you have at least helions, but against Protoss it's simply bad, stimpack, shield and medevacs are available too late to apply pressure. I will graciously ignore the fact that the aggressive race in that MU is Protoss nowadays.
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Poll: Does Chrono need to be nerfed?No (28) 60% Yes (18) 38% Undecided (1) 2% 47 total votes Your vote: Does Chrono need to be nerfed? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Undecided
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On March 20 2018 16:26 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 08:34 Myrddraal wrote:On March 20 2018 07:11 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 06:37 Fango wrote:On March 20 2018 06:29 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 06:19 Zaros wrote:On March 20 2018 06:07 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:On March 20 2018 05:02 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The OP Nydus is killing players, but are the drops that are nerfed xD Logic? since when were nydus OP? also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate). No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing. Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting... If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play. Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate... The game isn't balanced around average ladder games. It's balanced around the elite level. Where currently it never loses as far as I'm concerned. Ok, keep whining, stay bad, not my problem. You have a serious attitude problem, no wonder the feedback threads always turn to shit with people like you around. Sorry to disturb the whine train where you are only allowed to say "Zerg OP or call Zerg progamers patchzerg" while bringing no argument, and participatating on balance discussion even if you have no game knowledge. I was just saying : ok you prefer to whine rather than trying to understand game, i'll stop discussing with you it's pointless. I've given him all the things you can scout to defend the build, he refuses to understand and keep whining, i just recommand him to actually play the game (rather than whining about it), pick the Bo of rogue, pick zerg, try it vs Protoss, it will be the best way to find a good protoss that will show him how he defend the build. But no "it's OP, i prefer to whine a lot so it will eventually get nerfed, rather than learning how to counter it". And i'm the one warned for not being constructive.... It's not because you don't see a progamer on tournament defending a build it's OP, same for bunker rush... it's ridiculous to whine about it... And also rather than starting posting on protoss/terran help me thread "how to counter this", he starts with "it's OP, nerf it" in the balance discussion...
He clearly stated that it was based on pro games, not his own games as he plays Terran, rather than address this you just called him bad repeatedly, that's not constructive and it's not a good way to foster good discussions.
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On March 23 2018 10:17 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 16:26 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 08:34 Myrddraal wrote:On March 20 2018 07:11 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 06:37 Fango wrote:On March 20 2018 06:29 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 06:19 Zaros wrote:On March 20 2018 06:07 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
[quote]
since when were nydus OP?
also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate). No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing. Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting... If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play. Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate... The game isn't balanced around average ladder games. It's balanced around the elite level. Where currently it never loses as far as I'm concerned. Ok, keep whining, stay bad, not my problem. You have a serious attitude problem, no wonder the feedback threads always turn to shit with people like you around. Sorry to disturb the whine train where you are only allowed to say "Zerg OP or call Zerg progamers patchzerg" while bringing no argument, and participatating on balance discussion even if you have no game knowledge. I was just saying : ok you prefer to whine rather than trying to understand game, i'll stop discussing with you it's pointless. I've given him all the things you can scout to defend the build, he refuses to understand and keep whining, i just recommand him to actually play the game (rather than whining about it), pick the Bo of rogue, pick zerg, try it vs Protoss, it will be the best way to find a good protoss that will show him how he defend the build. But no "it's OP, i prefer to whine a lot so it will eventually get nerfed, rather than learning how to counter it". And i'm the one warned for not being constructive.... It's not because you don't see a progamer on tournament defending a build it's OP, same for bunker rush... it's ridiculous to whine about it... And also rather than starting posting on protoss/terran help me thread "how to counter this", he starts with "it's OP, nerf it" in the balance discussion... He clearly stated that it was based on pro games, not his own games as he plays Terran, rather than address this you just called him bad repeatedly, that's not constructive and it's not a good way to foster good discussions.
Civility in a balance discussion is like sobriety in a bar. Asking never hurts, but be prepared for disappointment.
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If i was going to make a patch to improve diversity, i would:
- Nerf Hydras
-Nerf mech in some way. ( ravens for sure, thors against mutas,)
-Nerf immortals and warp prism.
We really need bio vs ling bane muta back.
And lets be real, PvZ in lotv always ends up in mass immortals vs some sort of hydra comp.
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On March 23 2018 03:13 MockHamill wrote:
Ravens are still useless vs Protoss for gas cost.
Try 10 Tempest slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Try 8 Carriers slightly spread out vs 10 Ravens. Protoss wins every time by a large margin.
Protoss air still hard counter Terran including Ravens.
The only scenario where Ravens beats Tempest/Carriers is when you get an absurd amount of Ravens like 25+ or if the Protoss player does not spread out his army at all. That never happens in a real game though.
So basically Ravens may be OP in silver league but against a competent opponent they are not that strong and they certainly do not counter Protoss air.
Your point is? If marine is not a terran unit I can see the point but c'mon, when is the last time you see skytoss vs terran? Are you suggesting protoss can build pure air army to counter ravens? I got news for you, they can't.
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On March 23 2018 11:35 Snakestyle1 wrote:
If i was going to make a patch to improve diversity, i would:
- Nerf Hydras
-Nerf mech in some way. ( ravens for sure, thors against mutas,)
-Nerf immortals and warp prism.
We really need bio vs ling bane muta back.
And lets be real, PvZ in lotv always ends up in mass immortals vs some sort of hydra comp.
If Protoss is no longer forced to open Stargate every game that opens up the possibility of more Muta play so you may just get your wish, although I have a feeling Stargate openers will still be by far the most common opener.
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Vikings are too fragile for their job, especially vs Carriers.
They barley trade even vs unsupported Carriers and lose by a large margin as soon as Protoss mixes in some HT/Archons.
I suggest 15 more hitpoints and 1 armor so that Vikings can actually counter the units they are supposed to counter.
In order to keep Vikings weak vs ground units I suggest lowering their ground attack somewhat.
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On March 23 2018 10:17 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 16:26 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 08:34 Myrddraal wrote:On March 20 2018 07:11 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 06:37 Fango wrote:On March 20 2018 06:29 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 06:19 Zaros wrote:On March 20 2018 06:07 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 05:53 Fango wrote:On March 20 2018 05:14 iMrising wrote:
[quote]
since when were nydus OP?
also if you thought they were OP, drop nerf will indirectly help protoss defend against nyduses. non-stargate openings are stronger versus nydus play If the droperlord nerf allows players to not open stargate then fair enough. But the nydus is beyond broken right now. I haven't seen a nydus cheese lose in a single pro game since 4.0 (if anyone has, please let me know, because as far as I'm concerned it has a 100% winrate). No, you're just bad, if you can't identify fast lair, delayed third (or no third), lack of drone, lack of speedling at the normal timing. Nyndus is just a way to punish the players that don't scout, but these player prefer call "nyndus op" rather than scouting... If Classic cant even do anything about it then I wouldn't call someone bad for losing against it, it does look incredibly hard to defend but might not be a thing anymore if Robo or twilight comes into play. Pick zerg, do it on ladder, you'll see if you have 100% winrate... The game isn't balanced around average ladder games. It's balanced around the elite level. Where currently it never loses as far as I'm concerned. Ok, keep whining, stay bad, not my problem. You have a serious attitude problem, no wonder the feedback threads always turn to shit with people like you around. Sorry to disturb the whine train where you are only allowed to say "Zerg OP or call Zerg progamers patchzerg" while bringing no argument, and participatating on balance discussion even if you have no game knowledge. I was just saying : ok you prefer to whine rather than trying to understand game, i'll stop discussing with you it's pointless. I've given him all the things you can scout to defend the build, he refuses to understand and keep whining, i just recommand him to actually play the game (rather than whining about it), pick the Bo of rogue, pick zerg, try it vs Protoss, it will be the best way to find a good protoss that will show him how he defend the build. But no "it's OP, i prefer to whine a lot so it will eventually get nerfed, rather than learning how to counter it". And i'm the one warned for not being constructive.... It's not because you don't see a progamer on tournament defending a build it's OP, same for bunker rush... it's ridiculous to whine about it... And also rather than starting posting on protoss/terran help me thread "how to counter this", he starts with "it's OP, nerf it" in the balance discussion... He clearly stated that it was based on pro games, not his own games as he plays Terran, rather than address this you just called him bad repeatedly, that's not constructive and it's not a good way to foster good discussions.
Claming something is OP and need to be nerfed to death based on a sample of 3 pro games while the problem was just the lack of scout and yeah if scouted the bo is defended by any master protoss is clearly not the good way to start discussion.
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On March 23 2018 06:20 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2018 01:00 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
I think the biggest change in LOTV that has affected TvZ in particular is the economy change. Terran is the stable race, not being able to build workers in bulk like the zerg or to chronoboost a certain element like the protoss. What this means is that when Terran units come out, they need to be on the offense, especially in the early game.
Actually it's the stimpack. Now it hits too late in both TvP and TvZ. Against Zerg you have at least helions, but against Protoss it's simply bad, stimpack, shield and medevacs are available too late to apply pressure. I will graciously ignore the fact that the aggressive race in that MU is Protoss nowadays.
I could agree with that. Timings changed dramatically with the LOTV economy and the 2-1-1, for instance, is nowhere near as strong as it was in HOTS. I remember the first time I did it in LOTV and there were 20 zerglings roaming the map to squash my drop and somewhere around 40 drones on 3 bases I thought "this is... different".
I think the stimpack issue didn't show itself too strongly in TvZ or TvP until the Widow Mine nerf came into effect. This is when the "Bio is ded" memes began. Yay for 2 base tank pushes in TvP.
A few controversial claims about Terran:
1. Widow mines are still pretty useless.
2. Hellions don't do their job until they have blue flame plus upgrades, which is pretty uncommon unless you're Maru.
3. Vikings have no role in TvP or TvZ at the moment. (I guess you can build 1 to clear overlords.)
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And please nerf or remove Caustic Spray...
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EPT
