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Let's tone down the vitriol here just a bit. It's okay to have some heated discussion about balance (especially in this kind of thread), but I fear you guys might start crossing some lines soon. - Wax |
On March 20 2018 11:32 brickrd wrote:
im a zerg player and i don't think zerg needed evo drops. lair is fine.
Oh that's fine then, no worries. So toss gets an invincible wall with shield batteries and chroboboosted probes and mass immortal and sentries for force field. How come turtle play is being rewarded and anything that doesn't allow a player to do that freely is considered bad play?
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On March 22 2018 00:15 LTCM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 00:05 deacon.frost wrote:On March 21 2018 22:21 LTCM wrote:
Nevermind that zerg has won 5 out of 6 of the last major tournaments and still has a player in this gsl.....The world's best lotv protoss beat the third best lotv zerg 4-3 and it's ballshit.
Cause anything less than a zvz finals means toss is imba. How much does the bracket luck affect this? I mean - imagine the top TvZ player being on the side with a top PvT player. If such player gets good bye and then this PvT beast loses against the Zerg in the finals, can we blame balance or bracket luck? I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced, but making accusation based on the tournament winners is not fair IMO. Player form changes, player favorite MU changes too. Look at Maru, he can beat top Zergs but in the past got ass kicked by much worse Terrans as his TvT was shitty. You cannot talk about balance without talking about racial distribution. The two are tied so closely together that they are dependant on each other.
Using BW as an example just because there are a lot of players playing one race doesn't mean it's the strongest.
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On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P?
No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
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On March 22 2018 05:00 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
And therein lies why they patched it. If Protoss wasn't prepared (while at the same time not being able to scout it), it either killed them or put them at a massive disadvantage, and shutting it down reliably required going a specific tech path. If the drop failed, it might set Zerg back slightly, but usually would throw Protoss off enough and do enough damage that it would pay for itself.
Those drops were too good for the cost and risk required to do them versus the cost, risk and limitations put on the player trying hold them off. It's the same reason they've nerfed tons of other things in the past. When 1/1/1 was an issue way back when they had to nerf it (by buffing the immortal) because the build forced Protoss to prepare for it in the same way. If they did a build that countered the 1/1/1 and Terran did it, they might hold it off, but not doing a 1/1/1-countering build was game ending if Terran did 1/1/1. At the same time, if Terran didn't do 1/1/1 and Protoss prepared for it, they were now behind.
As someone said before, hatchery tech drops made sense in context to the mothership core being in the game since the mothership core could be used for scouting and to hold off the drops. Without it, hatchery tech drops were simply too good.
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On March 22 2018 05:00 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you.
So you don't want to see your low risk, high reward crap go? You sure make a compelling argument.
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On March 22 2018 05:23 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 05:00 Shakattak wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you. And therein lies why they patched it. If Protoss wasn't prepared (while at the same time not being able to scout it), it either killed them or put them at a massive disadvantage, and shutting it down reliably required going a specific tech path. If the drop failed, it might set Zerg back slightly, but usually would throw Protoss off enough and do enough damage that it would pay for itself. Those drops were too good for the cost and risk required to do them versus the cost, risk and limitations put on the player trying hold them off. It's the same reason they've nerfed tons of other things in the past. When 1/1/1 was an issue way back when they had to nerf it (by buffing the immortal) because the build forced Protoss to prepare for it in the same way. If they did a build that countered the 1/1/1 and Terran did it, they might hold it off, but not doing a 1/1/1-countering build was game ending if Terran did 1/1/1. At the same time, if Terran didn't do 1/1/1 and Protoss prepared for it, they were now behind. As someone said before, hatchery tech drops made sense in context to the mothership core being in the game since the mothership core could be used for scouting and to hold off the drops. Without it, hatchery tech drops were simply too good.
Nerf chronoboost then, change something else for toss because you shouldn't be able to just get three base full sat without fear of dying. Or having no viable way to do damage to you and punish greed. How come protoss is able to deny scouting with stargate play have a incredibly strong wall with SB and incredibly flexible SG into robot play which by the way got a large buff with this patch. Now you can't be punished for skimping units in favor of greedy quick tech play. How is this conducive to balanced gameplay?
Spire play is mostly dead because toss are going to open stargate anyways its benefits were not just in scouting but for map control and presence and early air dominance until corruptors and vipers.
I hate that every patch pidgeon holes me into certain tech paths and punishes me for doing anything else. Exactly what toss were complaining about, except now toss are going to open stargate anyways get free scouting and denying mine thats just brain dead to me just do whatever you feel like and now i am unable to punish you for going quick tech which does nothing to counter the straight to skytoss cancer. Which almost always occurs if air dominance isn't contested soon enough or you damage their eco enough to delay it.
Past a certain point in ZvP you have to wait for the toss to lose his army in the middle of the map before you can even hope to break him or wait till brood Lord and late game comps. Which everyone complains about being boring to play and watch. So how come people complain about that but want even more nerfs to early and mid game?
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On March 22 2018 05:47 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 05:00 Shakattak wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you. So you don't want to see your low risk, high reward crap go? You sure make a compelling argument.
Oh? What exactly about the early game of toss isn't low risk high reward with your chronos and SB?
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On March 22 2018 05:47 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 05:00 Shakattak wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you. So you don't want to see your low risk, high reward crap go? You sure make a compelling argument.
Considering protoss is actually : no risk, garanted reward.
Oracle : no risk, if the other doesn't build spores, you kill drone, if you does you can still kill drones, even if he perfectly micro, he loses the 3 drones +75 minerals x3 for building probe and the lost mining time when you pull off workers.
And oracle can defend vs lings, throw down statis ward (defensif or as harass) or revelation to scout.
Same for phoenix : garanted dmg.
DT drop : no spores, no scout : free win, scouted : garanted dmg with harass.
Look Stats vs soO : passive zerg defending harass and all-ins, winning only lategame or on defence, while Protoss have full control of the early-midgame
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On March 22 2018 06:08 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 05:47 Aiobhill wrote:On March 22 2018 05:00 Shakattak wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you. So you don't want to see your low risk, high reward crap go? You sure make a compelling argument. Considering protoss is actually : no risk, garanted reward. Oracle : no risk, if the other doesn't build spores, you kill drone, if you does you can still kill drones, even if he perfectly micro, he loses the 3 drones +75 minerals x3 for building probe and the lost mining time when you pull off workers. And oracle can defend vs lings, throw down statis ward (defensif or as harass) or revelation to scout. Same for phoenix : garanted dmg. DT drop : no spores, no scout : free win, scouted : garanted dmg with harass. Look Stats vs soO : passive zerg defending harass and all-ins, winning only lategame or on defence, while Protoss have full control of the early-midgame
My point.
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On March 22 2018 06:08 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 05:47 Aiobhill wrote:On March 22 2018 05:00 Shakattak wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you. So you don't want to see your low risk, high reward crap go? You sure make a compelling argument. Considering protoss is actually : no risk, garanted reward. Oracle : no risk, if the other doesn't build spores, you kill drone, if you does you can still kill drones, even if he perfectly micro, he loses the 3 drones +75 minerals x3 for building probe and the lost mining time when you pull off workers. And oracle can defend vs lings, throw down statis ward (defensif or as harass) or revelation to scout. Same for phoenix : garanted dmg. DT drop : no spores, no scout : free win, scouted : garanted dmg with harass. Look Stats vs soO : passive zerg defending harass and all-ins, winning only lategame or on defence, while Protoss have full control of the early-midgame
Indeed. So many effortless shortcuts to that 43% WR...
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On March 22 2018 06:54 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 06:08 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 22 2018 05:47 Aiobhill wrote:On March 22 2018 05:00 Shakattak wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you. So you don't want to see your low risk, high reward crap go? You sure make a compelling argument. Considering protoss is actually : no risk, garanted reward. Oracle : no risk, if the other doesn't build spores, you kill drone, if you does you can still kill drones, even if he perfectly micro, he loses the 3 drones +75 minerals x3 for building probe and the lost mining time when you pull off workers. And oracle can defend vs lings, throw down statis ward (defensif or as harass) or revelation to scout. Same for phoenix : garanted dmg. DT drop : no spores, no scout : free win, scouted : garanted dmg with harass. Look Stats vs soO : passive zerg defending harass and all-ins, winning only lategame or on defence, while Protoss have full control of the early-midgame Indeed. So many effortless shortcuts to that 43% WR...
At what point do the majority of these games end? Late game or early? Because if it is later when they end then the issue wasn't the early game.
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On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote:
Nerf chronoboost then, change something else for toss because you shouldn't be able to just get three base full sat without fear of dying. Or having no viable way to do damage to you and punish greed. How come protoss is able to deny scouting with stargate play have a incredibly strong wall with SB and incredibly flexible SG into robot play which by the way got a large buff with this patch. Now you can't be punished for skimping units in favor of greedy quick tech play. How is this conducive to balanced gameplay?
Unless the map has a pocket 3rd, Protoss are not taking and fully saturating 3rds with zero risk while skimping on units. That's complete nonsense and hasn't been possible since the mothership core was removed.
On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote:
I hate that every patch pidgeon holes me into certain tech paths and punishes me for doing anything else. Exactly what toss were complaining about, except now toss are going to open stargate anyways get free scouting and denying mine
Scouting and denying scouting isn't free if it requires investing resources you wouldn't otherwise be spending. Overlords give free scouting and queens can help deny scouting for free while oracles and phoenixes require and investment.
On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote:
Past a certain point in ZvP you have to wait for the toss to lose his army in the middle of the map before you can even hope to break him or wait till brood Lord and late game comps. Which everyone complains about being boring to play and watch. So how come people complain about that but want even more nerfs to early and mid game?
Zerg was favored in PvZ in the early game, mid game, and late game. People want nerfs to early and mid game to help bring balance to the match up. People would call for late game nerfs as well, but bad players already think the golden armada is unbeatable, so people aren't going to get support for that.
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OME. I just looked at my lunar calendar for 2017 and saw it was year of the Zerg. So much angst wasted.
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On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 05:23 Ben... wrote:On March 22 2018 05:00 Shakattak wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you. And therein lies why they patched it. If Protoss wasn't prepared (while at the same time not being able to scout it), it either killed them or put them at a massive disadvantage, and shutting it down reliably required going a specific tech path. If the drop failed, it might set Zerg back slightly, but usually would throw Protoss off enough and do enough damage that it would pay for itself. Those drops were too good for the cost and risk required to do them versus the cost, risk and limitations put on the player trying hold them off. It's the same reason they've nerfed tons of other things in the past. When 1/1/1 was an issue way back when they had to nerf it (by buffing the immortal) because the build forced Protoss to prepare for it in the same way. If they did a build that countered the 1/1/1 and Terran did it, they might hold it off, but not doing a 1/1/1-countering build was game ending if Terran did 1/1/1. At the same time, if Terran didn't do 1/1/1 and Protoss prepared for it, they were now behind. As someone said before, hatchery tech drops made sense in context to the mothership core being in the game since the mothership core could be used for scouting and to hold off the drops. Without it, hatchery tech drops were simply too good. Past a certain point in ZvP you have to wait for the toss to lose his army in the middle of the map before you can even hope to break him or wait till brood Lord and late game comps. Which everyone complains about being boring to play and watch. So how come people complain about that but want even more nerfs to early and mid game?
How about the 50/66 drones hydra bane ling all-ins ? How about the roach ravager bane comp ? How about the lurker transition before the hive->spire-> bl ? How about the mass drop to the main ? Aren't all of this happen in the mid game ?
Also when was the last time You saw Carriers in pro PvZ ? Did that comp actually won ?
Sometimes I feel like I am watching different game...
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On March 22 2018 07:37 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote:
Nerf chronoboost then, change something else for toss because you shouldn't be able to just get three base full sat without fear of dying. Or having no viable way to do damage to you and punish greed. How come protoss is able to deny scouting with stargate play have a incredibly strong wall with SB and incredibly flexible SG into robot play which by the way got a large buff with this patch. Now you can't be punished for skimping units in favor of greedy quick tech play. How is this conducive to balanced gameplay? Unless the map has a pocket 3rd, Protoss are not taking and fully saturating 3rds with zero risk while skimping on units. That's complete nonsense and hasn't been possible since the mothership core was removed. Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote:
I hate that every patch pidgeon holes me into certain tech paths and punishes me for doing anything else. Exactly what toss were complaining about, except now toss are going to open stargate anyways get free scouting and denying mine Scouting and denying scouting isn't free if it requires investing resources you wouldn't otherwise be spending. Overlords give free scouting and queens can help deny scouting for free while oracles and phoenixes require and investment. Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote:
Past a certain point in ZvP you have to wait for the toss to lose his army in the middle of the map before you can even hope to break him or wait till brood Lord and late game comps. Which everyone complains about being boring to play and watch. So how come people complain about that but want even more nerfs to early and mid game? Zerg was favored in PvZ in the early game, mid game, and late game. People want nerfs to early and mid game to help bring balance to the match up. People would call for late game nerfs as well, but bad players already think the golden armada is unbeatable, so people aren't going to get support for that.
Hydras were nerfed with the upgrade being split, allowing for more flexibility or do you just discount this? Mid game was addressed and there are many timing pushes that hit before scary hydra numbers. Mid game was addressed, early game didn't need to be nerfed as it was because now you know you can't be attacked until lair or some silly roach ravaged all ins that get countered by a couple immortals gateway units and shield batteries.
My use of hyperbole was unwarranted with regards to quick three base chrono but you and now unthreatened and are able to play more greedy with much less risk and no one has denied that. Large buffs to defensive capabilities for a race that gets strong as you turtle is not the answer. You can sit your main army in your base while doing Warp prism harass and warp ins that are low risk when you can pick units up as far away as you can. I just don't see what toss does that doesn't pay dividends while keeping them safe from being punished.
These things have been addressed to allow toss more time to react. Which is fine being able to get information is good but now you cannot get punished for greed at all before lair and your openings give you scout and econ damage potential whivh zerg simply does not have anymore.
Golden armada is beatable but you need lots of static D and
This is the kind of play lots of people hate doing never claimed it was unbeatable but it definitely isn't fun to play against. Neither toss players nor zerg enjoy this kind of late game scenario. But now zerg options are ham strung your options are varied and with standard stargate openings being as flexible as they are allowing you to get both map control presence and scout denial. Yes it's an investment like you mentioned and not "free" but your pay out is almost always massive and not really able to be stopped until hive or a large investment in AA and passive defense play and that's just silly.
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On March 22 2018 08:11 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote:On March 22 2018 05:23 Ben... wrote:On March 22 2018 05:00 Shakattak wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you. And therein lies why they patched it. If Protoss wasn't prepared (while at the same time not being able to scout it), it either killed them or put them at a massive disadvantage, and shutting it down reliably required going a specific tech path. If the drop failed, it might set Zerg back slightly, but usually would throw Protoss off enough and do enough damage that it would pay for itself. Those drops were too good for the cost and risk required to do them versus the cost, risk and limitations put on the player trying hold them off. It's the same reason they've nerfed tons of other things in the past. When 1/1/1 was an issue way back when they had to nerf it (by buffing the immortal) because the build forced Protoss to prepare for it in the same way. If they did a build that countered the 1/1/1 and Terran did it, they might hold it off, but not doing a 1/1/1-countering build was game ending if Terran did 1/1/1. At the same time, if Terran didn't do 1/1/1 and Protoss prepared for it, they were now behind. As someone said before, hatchery tech drops made sense in context to the mothership core being in the game since the mothership core could be used for scouting and to hold off the drops. Without it, hatchery tech drops were simply too good. Past a certain point in ZvP you have to wait for the toss to lose his army in the middle of the map before you can even hope to break him or wait till brood Lord and late game comps. Which everyone complains about being boring to play and watch. So how come people complain about that but want even more nerfs to early and mid game? How about the 50/66 drones hydra bane ling all-ins ? How about the roach ravager bane comp ? How about the lurker transition before the hive->spire-> bl ? How about the mass drop to the main ? Aren't all of this happen in the mid game ? Also when was the last time You saw Carriers in pro PvZ ? Did that comp actually won ? Sometimes I feel like I am watching different game...
Why is the answer I get always
" but this all in you can do"
What If you aren't trying to all in though? What if you are trying to set yourself up for the late game by doing damage and playing a harassment style?
Hydra bane all ins got nerfed as well with the upgrades being split. All those play styles are viable still but those are all lair or hive but now my early game consists of fast three base turtle into tech. The mid game has effectively shrunk with greedy openings into fast tech. Even Z rush to hive.
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On March 22 2018 08:11 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 06:04 Shakattak wrote:On March 22 2018 05:23 Ben... wrote:On March 22 2018 05:00 Shakattak wrote:On March 21 2018 00:55 Daimai wrote:On March 21 2018 00:17 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 20 2018 22:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 20 2018 18:48 hiroshOne wrote:
Oberlord drop nerf was live yesterday. I watched some GM Protoss streams. Guess what. They still open Stargate, shot on other openings, because they play greedy as hell as they used to. But this time there is nothing Zerg can do to punish that. GG Protoss. Once again yours tactic of whine worked. You make that claim based on watching GM players 1 day after that patch? LOL. Most players just copy their builds from the Korean and EU pros. If they are still opening stargate every game in a month, then yeah, the change failed to increase Protoss build diversity. That wouldn't necessarily make the change a failure though if it brings PvZ winrates closer to balanced. Also, how are Protoss playing greedy on any map without a pocket 3rd and not vulnerable to Zerg punishing that? Let be honest "more diversity" just mean drop dt/archons again, storm drops and more chargelots all-in while Zerg will be stuck into a passive and boring game of drone like during the past 8 years. Zerg has a multitude of viable all-ins, you honestly believe that ovie drops are the only way zergs can be aggressive vs P? No, but it was one where I didn't have to go all in to damage you. And therein lies why they patched it. If Protoss wasn't prepared (while at the same time not being able to scout it), it either killed them or put them at a massive disadvantage, and shutting it down reliably required going a specific tech path. If the drop failed, it might set Zerg back slightly, but usually would throw Protoss off enough and do enough damage that it would pay for itself. Those drops were too good for the cost and risk required to do them versus the cost, risk and limitations put on the player trying hold them off. It's the same reason they've nerfed tons of other things in the past. When 1/1/1 was an issue way back when they had to nerf it (by buffing the immortal) because the build forced Protoss to prepare for it in the same way. If they did a build that countered the 1/1/1 and Terran did it, they might hold it off, but not doing a 1/1/1-countering build was game ending if Terran did 1/1/1. At the same time, if Terran didn't do 1/1/1 and Protoss prepared for it, they were now behind. As someone said before, hatchery tech drops made sense in context to the mothership core being in the game since the mothership core could be used for scouting and to hold off the drops. Without it, hatchery tech drops were simply too good. Past a certain point in ZvP you have to wait for the toss to lose his army in the middle of the map before you can even hope to break him or wait till brood Lord and late game comps. Which everyone complains about being boring to play and watch. So how come people complain about that but want even more nerfs to early and mid game? How about the 50/66 drones hydra bane ling all-ins ? How about the roach ravager bane comp ? How about the lurker transition before the hive->spire-> bl ? How about the mass drop to the main ? Aren't all of this happen in the mid game ? Also when was the last time You saw Carriers in pro PvZ ? Did that comp actually won ? Sometimes I feel like I am watching different game...
I never claimed mid game compositions weren't viable or good still but attacking with them when there are oracles Phoenix for pick ups etc is kind of difficult and not always viable. Defensively yeah, still really really strong mass drops with roach hydra are more of mid late game to delay toss till your hive starts kicking in. But I am not really complaining about mid late game just early to mid. There were other changes that could be implemented instead of taking drops away to lair.
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Or like I mentioned before nerf chronoboost since you now have a larger variety of openings available to you as was the main complaint. Since that's been addressed, why doesn't chrono get addressed so you don't get silly three base turtle into fast upgrades?
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I think Chrono boost tone down, should be next thing adressed by Blizzard. It would balance not only PvZ but mostly TvP where fast upgrades of Protoss are making bio obsolete. Protoss players whine about ZvP winrates but are refusing to acknowledge poor winrates of Terrans vs Protoss.
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God, that zerg whine is over the board. It will amuse you guys, but the fact you facerolled over Protoss since LoTV spamming hydra 24/7 doesnt mean your skill suddenly increased. Guess what, MU just was freaking imbalanced (+1 range hydras anyone?), so welcome back to earth, boys. Time to start playing the actual game. If 43% WR, Scarlet almost 4-0ing sOs with BS allins isn't enough of an indicator for you, then i don't know what whould be. Just listen to the arguments: Protoss have "super strong wall" and "sentries", are we in 2010?, ravagers anyone? "We cant drop with tier1 tech" - did you actually know the other races get access to drop at tier2? and they cant just park ovies and lings at the cliff right before evo finishes. Pathetic.
On March 22 2018 15:18 hiroshOne wrote:
I think Chrono boost tone down, should be next thing adressed by Blizzard. It would balance not only PvZ but mostly TvP where fast upgrades of Protoss are making bio obsolete. Protoss players whine about ZvP winrates but are refusing to acknowledge poor winrates of Terrans vs Protoss.
The only one whining and "not acknowledging" facts here is you. PvZ is 43%, PvT is 49%. In any case, "lets nerf the protoss that is getting destroyed by zerg, because terran is having hard time vs protoss" logic is awesome.
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EPT
