On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses.
what's false about it? The relations between the countries are not fantastic, Larva's well aware of that, Legend's well aware of that. It is the context you can't ignore. Whatever the controversy was gonna happen, it was bound to be viewed through that prism.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The disproportionate reaction to this otherwise unimportant event was largely thanks to the nationalistic elements that some people connected to it. It's quite frankly hilarious to see attempts to deny any correlation, or people pretending that they have always been concerned over the lack of respect found in the Brood War scene, which is why they decided to chime their thoughts on the matter only when it was their player of choosing that got disrespected.
Quite obviously some people are using this event merely as a vessel of venting their pent up emotions on matters that has very little to do with the code of ethics found within the Brood War scene. That's bullshit if you ask me, and why should I encourage those who are flooding the Brood War forum for the sole purposes of beating that nationalistic drum?
u think korean fans would be okay if idra played with his foot vs boxer or yellow? plz
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
If it doesn't make a difference, and there's no point, then how is it humiliating him?
Did I miss something, and did he simultaneously shit talk and say how great he was for being able to win with his foot? Do you think the viewers think any less of Legion because Larva used his foot after the game was effectively won?
Since many people think it is inappropriate, and LX felt insulted, if you still pretend it is totally OK to EVERYONE, then there is nothing that needs to argue about. Did any grandmaster masturbate or dance naked when he plays his fans, despite that he could do that and win and it is more "entertaining"? Just to what extent you would think it is appropriate and entertaining? eat shit? fuck his uncle? Sure, that wouldn't directly affect the opponent, and I am sure someone would find it "entertaining", not me, and not many others.
Well, I'm not pretending everyone would find it okay, but I generally judge things by what I would find to be acceptable or insulting if they were done to me. So, while I can't speak from the experience of being a former veteren of anything, personally, if someone used their foot to play against me, or did any of the other things, I wouldn't feel humiliated or disrespected, if anything I would be impressed that they are that much better than me.
But hey I am generally thick skinned, have a reasonable sense of humour and try to keep my ego in check. I understand not everyone is the same, and Legion could take it differently, but by no means do I agree that it should be seen as a big deal and worthy of being banned. Also I'm pretty sure more people think it's funny than inappropriate (except in China), so if you're part of the latter then maybe take a look in the mirror and try to work out why you find it so offensive.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses.
what's false about it? The relations between the countries are not fantastic, Larva's well aware of that, Legend's well aware of that. It is the context you can't ignore. Whatever the controversy was gonna happen, it was bound to be viewed through that prism.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The disproportionate reaction to this otherwise unimportant event was largely thanks to the nationalistic elements that some people connected to it. It's quite frankly hilarious to see attempts to deny any correlation, or people pretending that they have always been concerned over the lack of respect found in the Brood War scene, which is why they decided to chime their thoughts on the matter only when it was their player of choosing that got disrespected.
Quite obviously some people are using this event merely as a vessel of venting their pent up emotions on matters that has very little to do with the code of ethics found within the Brood War scene. That's bullshit if you ask me, and why should I encourage those who are flooding the Brood War forum for the sole purposes of beating that nationalistic drum?
u think korean fans would be okay if idra played with his foot vs boxer or yellow? plz
I believe only Koreans have right to be offended, so no
Thankfully those who do offensive stuff do it when they can back it up, so we don't have to see them being salty af
On December 05 2017 10:53 FlaShFTW wrote: [quote] 1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you".
you literally lack any self awareness. Look at your words then refer them back to yourself.
On December 05 2017 11:06 FlaShFTW wrote: [quote] Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you".
You just agreed with him and then contradicted your own first sentence.
no I didn't agree with him. I replied with his own words so he had a chance to see how meaningless they are. Then explained why they are meaningless and what defines retarded behavior.
You said he doesn't get to decide what others think(literally his point), which you then proceeded to do, LOL.
ever heard of satire? Or irony? He says "you don't get to decide blabla" then next sentence he says "the entire community blabla". So he gets to decide what an entire community approves? That's exactly what I mocked replying to him in his own words.
As a side note, here's an explanation to the "metaphor" part of Legend's statement: "过去送个外卖"literally means "going there on a delivery run"; metaphorically, this is something like "going to a party as the pizza delivery guy", which means you go there, do your job and take the money, strictly business. Then the later part "娱乐下"steer the meaning a little bit, which make it look like "mixing the business with a little bit of fun". So I guess this shows the mentality of Legend going to the showmatch. He expects a little bit of fun, but not as much as he was served. (pun intended)
I'm Chinese and I'm not offended by Larva's action. It's still a pretty demeaning thing to do on his part; it's his reputation on the line after all, not Legend's.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses.
what's false about it? The relations between the countries are not fantastic, Larva's well aware of that, Legend's well aware of that. It is the context you can't ignore. Whatever the controversy was gonna happen, it was bound to be viewed through that prism.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The disproportionate reaction to this otherwise unimportant event was largely thanks to the nationalistic elements that some people connected to it. It's quite frankly hilarious to see attempts to deny any correlation, or people pretending that they have always been concerned over the lack of respect found in the Brood War scene, which is why they decided to chime their thoughts on the matter only when it was their player of choosing that got disrespected.
Quite obviously some people are using this event merely as a vessel of venting their pent up emotions on matters that has very little to do with the code of ethics found within the Brood War scene. That's bullshit if you ask me, and why should I encourage those who are flooding the Brood War forum for the sole purposes of beating that nationalistic drum?
u think korean fans would be okay if idra played with his foot vs boxer or yellow? plz
Considering that would never be a possibility, let's look into some other competitive realms.
This is the reaction from Jamsil Stadium, with the Korean national team being completely outclassed by the American team who were quite clearly showboating. They can handle a spectacle at the cost of their home team.
If Idra actually became good enough to defeat BoxeR while showboating with his feet, then I would guess that it would create memes about BoxeR being washed up garbage, just like memes were created about sAviOr when he lost to PJ who I believe went for carriers and dark archons for the deciding game, for instance. PJ was dubbed "Sha-bonjwa" by the Korean internet community, and sAviOr was bashed to the ground for being pathetic enough to lose to a B teamer protoss who went for carriers.
Once again this is pure conjecture, but I would assume that Korean communities would be more likely to ridicule their own players to oblivion should they embarrass themselves in such a manner, rather than tunnel visioning on any offense caused by the victor. That's how I personally would assume things would go down, but perhaps you have years of first hand experience as a member of the Korean internet community, and have expert opinions that far outstrip my own in terms of accuracy and insight.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities.
Really? I think it's far more irrational to make a big deal about it, take emotions out of it and tell me how exactly anyone was harmed by what Larva did?
It was clearly a relaxed atmopshere, not some super serious competition. If you think that someone playing a video game with with their foot for a short time is some huge moral issue, go watch some comedians and grow a sense of humour.
TBH I didn't think much of Larva's behaviour, what he did was within my expectations, I personally just laughed off it, but I can totally understand why many couldn't stand it. Rationally speaking, playing with your feet against a retired veteran shows nothing but your immaturity and disrespect towards your opponent, even if you didn't mean it. Watch Jet Li's movie "Fearless" and see how the Japanese Samurai behaved when he fought and won against a handicapped Li at the end of the movie, that is true respect against a weaker opponent.
The problem was that LX did not expect this behaviour, he came prepared as if it was a serious match, if Larva had communicated with LX beforehand everything would be fine, but he didn't. Disrespect is disrespect, the particular circumstances or context does not invalidate the nature of the behaviour or attitude itself. If you don't think disrespect is a moral issue, I suggest you read this page: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/#SomImpIss , specifically, in part 2.1 the author attempts to answer the question "What is it about persons that makes them matter morally and makes them worthy of respect?"
I've seen Fearless, it was a great movie, but this was not a battle to the death between warriors, but a showmatch streamed for viewer entertainment, so forgive me for considering that to be a pretty inept comparison. Just because you say, "rationally speaking" at the start of your point, does not make your point rational, you seem to be suggesting that it is immature and disrespectful because he is a retired veteren, if it were a serious competition I would probably agree with you, but because it was a showmatch, I believe it is you that is being overly emotional and irrational. We can have differing opinions and that is fine, but I would caution against get blinded by your opinion into thinking you have some sort of moral high ground and any who disagree with you are just irrational or immature.
The circumstances do matter, because there are different expectations depending on the circumstances, I expect a showmatch to be entertaining. If Legion expected a super serious match then it is understandable that he would feel disprespected, but in my opinion, that is his mistake not Larva's.
Being disrespectful in a showmatch is still being disrespectful, I don't see how that could be different, if anything it could only be worse as a worldwide audience is watching. A simple analogy would be stealing from your friend is no different from stealing from your neighbor, the president, or a criminal, regardless of who it is you stole from, you have commited an act of theft. You seem to be focused on deconstructing semantic issues of my post instead of aiming at my arguments, this is an unconvincing way to reason. Moreover, you assumed that I was being overly emotional and irrational, however beginning your argument with "I believe it is you that is ..." is once again a very unconvincing way to reason. Lastly, please let me point out the error in your final accusation, namely that I am "blinded by my opinion that I have some sort of moral high ground". The concept of a "moral high ground" is in itself an inconsistent definition as morality is mutual, it is an extension of basic human rights of personhood and the free will of the rational agent, therefore by definition no one can be "morally superior" as it is a mutually equal responsibility between any rational moral agent. One can, of course, choose not to behave in accordance with moral laws, in which case, one has violated the law of morality and thus, in a just society, must face the corresponding repercussions, but nowhere do I see how a person is inherently, or deductively "morally superior" to another.
However, I would like to express my gratitude for your civil behaviour, as to my experience such civil discussions are quite rare nowadays on the internet...
No my friend, it is you that is missing my argument, my argument is that it was not disrespectful or at least not intending to be disrespectful. I don't need to aim at your arguments because I deny the entire premise. So from my perspective your analogy doesn't apply, it would be more accurate to say that Legion thought Larva stole from him, but he didn't, he felt wronged but was not actually wronged. Larva may have bruised his ego, but I think a weak ego is a liability, so if he managed to get over it he will be better off.
I started with "I believe", because I don't claim to know you are being irrational, but that is my perspective. I figured that would make it more obvious to you that I was stating an opinion I had thought about, rather than just reacting in opposition, it would be dishonest of me to claim to know how you are feeling.
The accusation was emant to be more of an attempt to let you know how you come across, rather than a literal accusation. It seemed like you were saying that anyone who came to the opposite conclusion must be acting irrationally, therefore your position was superior simply by virtue of being reached rationally. I just wanted to remind you, that one can think rationally about this situation and come to the opposite conclusion.
No worries, I know how you feel haha. I'm a bit of a chameleon so it helps that your initial post was civil. Anyway I need to go sort out dinner and play table tennis, gl hf.
Edit: I meant to say in the first paragraph, it's not disrespectful given the circumstances, messing around in a serious match is making a mockery of the competition, messing around in a showmatch is in accordance of what I would expect from a showmatch.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses.
what's false about it? The relations between the countries are not fantastic, Larva's well aware of that, Legend's well aware of that. It is the context you can't ignore. Whatever the controversy was gonna happen, it was bound to be viewed through that prism.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The disproportionate reaction to this otherwise unimportant event was largely thanks to the nationalistic elements that some people connected to it. It's quite frankly hilarious to see attempts to deny any correlation, or people pretending that they have always been concerned over the lack of respect found in the Brood War scene, which is why they decided to chime their thoughts on the matter only when it was their player of choosing that got disrespected.
Quite obviously some people are using this event merely as a vessel of venting their pent up emotions on matters that has very little to do with the code of ethics found within the Brood War scene. That's bullshit if you ask me, and why should I encourage those who are flooding the Brood War forum for the sole purposes of beating that nationalistic drum?
u think korean fans would be okay if idra played with his foot vs boxer or yellow? plz
Considering that would never be a possibility, let's look into some other competitive realms.
This is the reaction from Jamsil Stadium, with the Korean national team being completely outclassed by the American team who were quite clearly showboating. They can handle a spectacle at the cost of their home team.
If Idra actually became good enough to defeat BoxeR while showboating with his feet, then I would guess that it would create memes about BoxeR being washed up garbage, just like memes were created about sAviOr when he lost to PJ who I believe went for carriers and dark archons for the deciding game, for instance. PJ was dubbed "Sha-bonjwa" by the Korean internet community, and sAviOr was bashed to the ground for being pathetic enough to lose to a B teamer protoss who went for carriers.
Once again this is pure conjecture, but I would assume that Korean communities would be more likely to ridicule their own players to oblivion should they embarrass themselves in such a manner, rather than tunnel visioning on any offense caused by the victor. That's how I personally would assume things would go down, but perhaps you have years of first hand experience as a member of the Korean internet community, and have expert opinions that far outstrip my own in terms of accuracy and insight.
I think we can all agree that there is some showboating, foreigners in general are not new to that, this is not the first time. Also we are talking about LX who went d-web corsair vs Flash in WCG, vs Tossgirl in a showmatch. It's about where we draw the line between showboating and being disrespectful. That is debatable. You can say playing with feet is okay, then how about other stuff like showing his cock/pouring soy sauce etc... LX might be overreacting a little bit with his tweet, but it's quite clear that he finds the nukes/drone killing funny but thinks some of Larva's other acts have gone too far.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities.
Really? I think it's far more irrational to make a big deal about it, take emotions out of it and tell me how exactly anyone was harmed by what Larva did?
It was clearly a relaxed atmopshere, not some super serious competition. If you think that someone playing a video game with with their foot for a short time is some huge moral issue, go watch some comedians and grow a sense of humour.
TBH I didn't think much of Larva's behaviour, what he did was within my expectations, I personally just laughed off it, but I can totally understand why many couldn't stand it. Rationally speaking, playing with your feet against a retired veteran shows nothing but your immaturity and disrespect towards your opponent, even if you didn't mean it. Watch Jet Li's movie "Fearless" and see how the Japanese Samurai behaved when he fought and won against a handicapped Li at the end of the movie, that is true respect against a weaker opponent.
The problem was that LX did not expect this behaviour, he came prepared as if it was a serious match, if Larva had communicated with LX beforehand everything would be fine, but he didn't. Disrespect is disrespect, the particular circumstances or context does not invalidate the nature of the behaviour or attitude itself. If you don't think disrespect is a moral issue, I suggest you read this page: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/#SomImpIss , specifically, in part 2.1 the author attempts to answer the question "What is it about persons that makes them matter morally and makes them worthy of respect?"
I've seen Fearless, it was a great movie, but this was not a battle to the death between warriors, but a showmatch streamed for viewer entertainment, so forgive me for considering that to be a pretty inept comparison. Just because you say, "rationally speaking" at the start of your point, does not make your point rational, you seem to be suggesting that it is immature and disrespectful because he is a retired veteren, if it were a serious competition I would probably agree with you, but because it was a showmatch, I believe it is you that is being overly emotional and irrational. We can have differing opinions and that is fine, but I would caution against get blinded by your opinion into thinking you have some sort of moral high ground and any who disagree with you are just irrational or immature.
The circumstances do matter, because there are different expectations depending on the circumstances, I expect a showmatch to be entertaining. If Legion expected a super serious match then it is understandable that he would feel disprespected, but in my opinion, that is his mistake not Larva's.
Being disrespectful in a showmatch is still being disrespectful, I don't see how that could be different, if anything it could only be worse as a worldwide audience is watching. A simple analogy would be stealing from your friend is no different from stealing from your neighbor, the president, or a criminal, regardless of who it is you stole from, you have commited an act of theft. You seem to be focused on deconstructing semantic issues of my post instead of aiming at my arguments, this is an unconvincing way to reason. Moreover, you assumed that I was being overly emotional and irrational, however beginning your argument with "I believe it is you that is ..." is once again a very unconvincing way to reason. Lastly, please let me point out the error in your final accusation, namely that I am "blinded by my opinion that I have some sort of moral high ground". The concept of a "moral high ground" is in itself an inconsistent definition as morality is mutual, it is an extension of basic human rights of personhood and the free will of the rational agent, therefore by definition no one can be "morally superior" as it is a mutually equal responsibility between any rational moral agent. One can, of course, choose not to behave in accordance with moral laws, in which case, one has violated the law of morality and thus, in a just society, must face the corresponding repercussions, but nowhere do I see how a person is inherently, or deductively "morally superior" to another.
However, I would like to express my gratitude for your civil behaviour, as to my experience such civil discussions are quite rare nowadays on the internet...
No my friend, it is you that is missing my argument, my argument is that it was not disrespectful or at least not intending to be disrespectful. I don't need to aim at your arguments because I deny the entire premise. So from my perspective your analogy doesn't apply, it would be more accurate to say that Legion thought Larva stole from him, but he didn't, he felt wronged but was not actually wronged. Larva may have bruised his ego, but I think a weak ego is a liability, so if he managed to get over it he will be better off.
I started with "I believe", because I don't claim to know you are being irrational, but that is my perspective. I figured that would make it more obvious to you that I was stating an opinion I had thought about, rather than just reacting in opposition, it would be dishonest of me to claim to know how you are feeling.
The accusation was emant to be more of an attempt to let you know how you come across, rather than a literal accusation. It seemed like you were saying that anyone who came to the opposite conclusion must be acting irrationally, therefore your position was superior simply by virtue of being reached rationally. I just wanted to remind you, that one can think rationally about this situation and come to the opposite conclusion.
No worries, I know how you feel haha. I'm a bit of a chameleon so it helps that your initial post was civil. Anyway I need to go sort out dinner and play table tennis, gl hf.
Fair enough my friend, I guess it would make sense to say that LX thought Larva disrespected him, but disrespecting him wasn't a part of Larva's intention. The conclusion all depends on the premise in which you see this issue, and I agree that we will inevitably come to different conclusions if we start from different premises. But then, I think the behaviour of Larva was ambiguous at best, and it all falls onto his intention that he should've communicated across whether for us to see this incident as a shameful act of disrespect or a friendly form of entertainment, and the biggest problem I see is that putting one's feet on the table is an extremely disrespectful thing to do in Asian cultures, hence why some Koreans felt proud while most Chinese felt enraged. It would be great if both players could communicate and come to a common ground either before or after the game, unfortunately that wasn't the case, and hatred coming from both sides is only making it worse.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses.
what's false about it? The relations between the countries are not fantastic, Larva's well aware of that, Legend's well aware of that. It is the context you can't ignore. Whatever the controversy was gonna happen, it was bound to be viewed through that prism.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The disproportionate reaction to this otherwise unimportant event was largely thanks to the nationalistic elements that some people connected to it. It's quite frankly hilarious to see attempts to deny any correlation, or people pretending that they have always been concerned over the lack of respect found in the Brood War scene, which is why they decided to chime their thoughts on the matter only when it was their player of choosing that got disrespected.
Quite obviously some people are using this event merely as a vessel of venting their pent up emotions on matters that has very little to do with the code of ethics found within the Brood War scene. That's bullshit if you ask me, and why should I encourage those who are flooding the Brood War forum for the sole purposes of beating that nationalistic drum?
u think korean fans would be okay if idra played with his foot vs boxer or yellow? plz
Considering that would never be a possibility, let's look into some other competitive realms.
This is the reaction from Jamsil Stadium, with the Korean national team being completely outclassed by the American team who were quite clearly showboating. They can handle a spectacle at the cost of their home team.
If Idra actually became good enough to defeat BoxeR while showboating with his feet, then I would guess that it would create memes about BoxeR being washed up garbage, just like memes were created about sAviOr when he lost to PJ who I believe went for carriers and dark archons for the deciding game, for instance. PJ was dubbed "Sha-bonjwa" by the Korean internet community, and sAviOr was bashed to the ground for being pathetic enough to lose to a B teamer protoss who went for carriers.
Once again this is pure conjecture, but I would assume that Korean communities would be more likely to ridicule their own players to oblivion should they embarrass themselves in such a manner, rather than tunnel visioning on any offense caused by the victor. That's how I personally would assume things would go down, but perhaps you have years of first hand experience as a member of the Korean internet community, and have expert opinions that far outstrip my own in terms of accuracy and insight.
I think we can all agree that there is some showboating, foreigners in general are not new to that, this is not the first time. Also we are talking about LX who went d-web corsair vs Flash in WCG, vs Tossgirl in a showmatch. It's about where we draw the line between showboating and being disrespectful. That is debatable. You can say playing with feet is okay, then how about other stuff like showing his cock/pouring soy sauce etc... LX might be overreacting a little bit with his tweet, but it's quite clear that he finds the nukes/drone killing funny but thinks some of Larva's other acts have gone too far.
Larva was disrespectful throughout his entire career. He first made a big impression to the Korean fans when he called out JangBi for being trash at the game, when he still had that prestige of being the reigning OGN StarLeague champion, and Larva was literally a nobody. Larva has made a name for himself with both in-game and out of game disrespects, one of the more recent examples of which was against Sea where he literally stood up and shadow boxed mid-game to flaunt his immense advantage in the game.
I have zero qualms about calling Larva out for what he is. I don't have a problem with those who are upset for Legend, and how he was humiliated on stage. What I do have problems with are people who feign concern for the moral code within the Brood War scene itself when it is quite clear that they could not have cared less about the Brood War scene before this event took place, and those who feel this is the perfect vessel to help them spew out their nationalistic garbage.
Youtube subscribers. Fans who watch broadcast. Thank you for supporting foreigners. I just tried to save this tournament and StarCraft. Performance is essential to attract attention I made a judgment. As a result, When I extracted the African TV data At 3 o'clock in Korean time. It's a very high figure that I would not have started at 5. Recorded. Finally, Jotec America I prepared so hard and took care of me a lot. I can not look good until the end I'm sorry and thank you. And I do not know if the players will see it, but there is only one place to leave a message. It's only a few days since the tournament. StarCraft has made many friends with just one game. first. I decided to match the dragon gamer. I could not make it because of the time. I'm sorry. Send me an email! I'll put it online! My student Hawk is the same age as me, the race is the same, and the beard is the same. Thank you for showing my enthusiasm for star and next time I will upgrade! Physical good Kawai Rise I think it will be top class if you add a little more !! Draco is really handsome and gentle manners. Thanks for showing me. Happy birthday again! Michael! I think it will be memorable for me to go to the Korean town in the morning. Congratulations on winning! ultra! Show the power of Czech pro gamers! Thank you for making me so good memories. Well it would be nice if we had a date together. Everyone is fine!
@Edit: the comment disappeared now, maybe it was a fake but it was pinned so I don't know what is going on :D
"My student Hawk is the same age as me, the race is the same, and the beard is the same. Thank you for showing my enthusiasm for star and next time I will upgrade!"
Larva (top4 korea) almost losing a bo3 match to me as a retired pro who has been playing starcraft again for only 3 months is basicly same level of an insult as beating someone with a foot. He just had to do the same to Lx.
I wonder why ASL hasn't banned me yet, I guess that's a matter of time.
The smell of korean fear is real... watch out because who knows what the future holds.
I just want to point out that controversy around larva's behaviour completely overshadowed THE ENTIRE EVENT. No one even talks about money, who won against whom, NOTHING but larva's nukes (WTF?!) and feet on the keyboard.
Offracing and nuking an opponent is PERFECTLY ok, shouldn't even be brought up. Not by Legend, that's for certain; if you end up getting nuked by an offracing opponent - well, you really should feel bad. It's again the football analogies - dominating players try for overhead kicks and other fancy stuff to score a goal.
Playing with hands crossed is certainly ok as well, being some sort of showmanship. I don't see how this qualifies as being bad mannered.
The feet thing is a bit overboard and I personally would be offended and would not cheer for a guy who does that kind of stuff in online events. Then again, as put out by many previous posters, larva does that kind of stuff. He's a clown and he literally lives on being obnoxious (yea, he's a top player now, but he got paid on stream for doing stupid shit for quite a while). There are other such players and I feel like it's slowly becoming a thing, since high-level players are freelance now, no KESPA, no big sponsorship, just the stream. Whatever gets the viewers/balloons/etc. Sea is that kind of streamer, not to mention Terror, and I am certain there are many others who make a living off being obnoxious. And ZOTAC invite him? And they don't prevent his antics beforehand, or at first instance? Well, they did they homework (or they didn't) and they have to live with the consequences now. And it's not an easy decision, being a chinese company and all.
Legend feeling insulted, well, he has a certain right to it, but I find the translated comment to be pretty salty in a "I was horribly outclassed" way, despite the alleged respect for his hard work. Possibly lost in translation. I feel for him being humiliated though.
All in all, I'm never going to be a larva fan because he's that kind of player - and I don't like that kind of player. But we're all entitled to our own opinions and tastes, aren't we? I guess organizers of future events will have this "incident" in mind. But it's really a storm in a teacup. Please don't call for sterile tourneys with just "gg" and "pp" allowed. It's just as bad.
On December 05 2017 18:51 Draco wrote: I feel like this is all my fault...
Larva (top4 korea) almost losing a bo3 match to me as a retired pro who has been playing starcraft again for only 3 months is basicly same level of an insult as beating someone with a foot. He just had to do the same to Lx.
I wonder why ASL hasn't banned me yet, I guess that's a matter of time.
The smell of korean fear is real... watch out because who knows what the future holds.
Hahaha, watching Larva's stream after you beat him in the first game was incredible. The chat was going crazy! I may have only been using google translate but I'm pretty sure I know what "korea disgrace" translates to. The games you played against him were incredibly fun to watch, epecially the last one. I wasn't watching brood war back in the old days, but I would love to see more games from you in the future!
TL;DR: Zotac Korea/America told Larva that they didn't have problem with his actions
Larva says Zotac Korea and Zotac America was against the decision and they were big help to him with the current incident, even when there was big time zone difference between Korea/America. They stayed up all night helping him with the current fiasco.
On getting approval: Larva also said that there may have been some miscommunication between one of Zotac staff and him since the translator wasn't there when he arrived at first.
Zotac America/Korea's standpoint is that if there were problem with his performance, they wouldn't have done full screen shot of him doing it, as well as putting rules set beforehand. In other words, when they did a zoom up shot on Larva's showboating instead of turning off Larva's camera, it was implied that it was allowed
Larva said that it would have been rather problematic if the public response was negative, but it seems to be rather overwhelmingly positive.
Larva said that Legend refused his apology when he said he would apologize if his actions caused offence since Legend had his own circumstances. Larva understands 100% why legend may have been upset at him since he played with his foot and all, but Larva's had issues with Zotac China releasing the ban statement
It was said that it was Zotac China's indepdent decision to release those statements/ban, and right now, theres even opposition from Zotac America, who is asking why Zotac China released that sort of statement.
He also says the foreign reaction as well as korean reaction was very positive, and he is aware that the video clips hit 700k+ on western media, and total views are over 1m+. He was told that he would be getting more interview requests, and he had already received one as of now.
Larva also said that reason why he didn't speak out before was that even if he didn't have much to lose since he wouldn't be competing overseas often, he was afraid what he said would damage Zotac Korea/America. Since he had previously thought Zotac China was the Zotac headquarters, he didn't wanna say things that would damage Zotac Korea/America since the Zotac staff worked so hard to prepare for these events.
On incontrol misunderstanding: Larva now knows that incontrol didn't mean to give him impression that he was mad at larva. Larva says that he now knows that incontrol's facial expression was because incontrol was tired, rather than being mad at him. So thats cleared up since Larva thought incontrol was mad at him yesterday.
EPT
