There are several threads floating around BW General that are all pertaining to the same topic. Let's keep it all in one thread for the sake of coherence.
On December 04 2017 17:33 Serene_Potato wrote: Translation for OP: How did I meet such a mentally ill person while going overseas to have a little fun (not sure if that’s what his metaphor means). What kind of enjoyment did you get from this, or did you do it for some mentally challenged fans. When I first knew you I thought you got your results through hard work, and I respected that. But now I see that I was completely wrong. Even if you were to nuke me in game I would just laugh it off. Outside the game you act like a clown, this is the difference between you and a 1st place professional player. Trash…
The Incontrol thread at least is a different topic than the Larva stuff, even if it is related. That one shouldn't be locked. In fact, I'm not sure any of them needed to be
Was just about to post in incontrol's thread, but I guess I'll put it here instead:
I didn't catch the event live, and ended up reading most of the reaction/drama threads before looking at the VOD. I thought that the "incontrol is so mad lol"-thing that popped up in that chat every 5 minutes was a meme or something before seeing your response in one of the other threads. It seemed pretty obvious (to me at least) that you were playing the straight man to the funny man of the tastosis duo.
This situation has blown way out of proportion, but anyway, wanted to say that I enjoyed both the games and the casting. Looking forward to seeing more in the future!
Zotac expecting Larva to apologize? My ass after Lx was so butthurt and called him trash and mentally ill. If he wasn't so butthurt about it maybe this drama couldn't even happen. But I'm glad everyone gonna remember how he got demolished and humiliated by Larva.
On December 05 2017 05:13 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: #FreeLarva
The Incontrol thread at least is a different topic than the Larva stuff, even if it is related. That one shouldn't be locked. In fact, I'm not sure any of them needed to be
Yeah, seems weird to close a thread thats basically an official statement from a e-celebrity/caster, etc.
So what incentive does Larva have to apologize if Zotac has already already banned him from future Zotac events? What are they going to do if he doesn't apologize, ban him again?
On December 05 2017 05:20 General Nuke Em wrote: So what incentive does Larva have to apologize if Zotac has already already banned him from future Zotac events? What are they going to do if he doesn't apologize, ban him again?
Decency? Reputation? Maturity? Acting like an adult?
Lx's words were mistranslated. I feel by Chinese standards at least;; "Mentally ill" and things like that are not offensive at all. The way it is written, he is genuine he believes Larva needs medical help.
I want to dislike Zotac for this, but Larva is so manner... He's a crybaby. Even in Korean networks he will trash talk everybody, then cry when someone trash talks him.
Just to expand on what i was saying in Incontrol's thread,
If you know anything about Larva, you know that the guy doesn't take himself seriously and does that kind of stuff in a cheeky/joyful way, not as a mean to humiliate someone he dislikes. He has "disrespected" himself more than anybody, i've seen him impersonating a dragoon in pants, throwing punches at a his his pikachu in the same outfit, breaking his keyboard while screaming, crying on the ground like a baby with the ugliest face you can imagine. He was the laughing stock of the BW scene for a while (years ?), the clown who can't perform in offline events. He got relentlessly crushed by FlaSh, Bisu and the likes on stream forn again, years and yet he didn't give up, kept practicing while being funny and entertaining and finally managed to make it and perform to the big stage (and on top of his showmanship, that's why 90% of the audience was disapointed when he lost to hero).
I would understand the anger about his trolling if he was an arrogant prick, but he's like the opposite, so all this constroversy is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. The goal of his trolling wasn't to humiliate Legend, it was to entertain the audience...
Here's just my thoughts regarding this ordeal as a player at the event :
Larva did nothing wrong.
The skill gap is so large between Korea and the rest of the world that if you want competitive and close games you shouldn't put Koreans vs. Foreigners. This has been demonstrated many times throughout brood war history. Winning against Koreans is so rare that when a foreigner does win against a Korean in tournament the feat makes history and often becomes the crowning achievement of the foreign player.
I was under the impression that this is well understood and that Zotac invited a Korean for the purpose of creating entertaining, but not necessarily competitive matches.
I was wrong, the Zotac guys seemed really convinced before and after the tournament that the games were close and that there is only a small difference in skill between Larva/Korea and everyone else. Combine this with the naming convention of "Showmatch Event" which implies that the primary purpose was entertainment and we get what happened.
(Edit for clarification: This paragraph was just my explanation on how various factors could have contributed to the miscommunication leading up to the Grand Finals. I don't think the first sentence is applicable and after talking more with Zotac I think they knew about the skill difference.)
Larva, myself and other players were under the impression that the invite showmatch was primarily for entertainment. Larva especially had difficulty talking with much of the staff and players at Zotac due to the language barrier. And as shown on the stream the translator had a tendency to translate what was said more nicely and made it milder. Given all of this I'm not surprised that Larva thinks he asked for permission and was okay to mess around and Zotac thinks he didn't.
Larva did his best to show exactly what he thought he was supposed to show at the event. The tournament had ambiguous expectations and it's reasonable to think that a showmatch will or should have showmanship, which is Larva's specialty.
My other thoughts are that outside of games Larva is one of the nicest and most helpful people I've met. Even with a huge language barrier he was happy to try and help me out with my game and even practice with me. I never once saw him say or do anything rude outside of the games and was always very respectful to everyone.
Last tidbit and brag I beat Larva's Terran in a practice game and I just don't know why I play my heart out in practice against Larva then play so sloppily when it actually matters.
Larva has been my favorite streamer for a long time now. He is a good person, a husband, a father, and down to Earth guy. It's very sad to see him receiving all this flak.
The fact of the matter is, no one would have heard about these games or cared if he played straight up. He turned this one sided tournament into one of the most memorable Starcraft events ever.
It's sad how short sighted Zotac and Legend are being. They need to swallow their pride and realize this is nothing but good for the game.
I don't understand why people are arguing that Legend should just "thicken his skin" or something like that. Sure BMing is a part of the competition, but what Larva did (even if he intended it in good faith) can easily be misinterpreted as being incredibly insulting. I don't know what sort of relationship Larva and Legend had beforehand, but assuming the two aren't that close, Larva definitely should have been more aware of the ramifications of his behavior. It's unfortunate that the whole situation blew up, Larva really should reach out to Legend and apologize though (if he hasn't already).
really bothered me how people just call Lx a "crybaby" or for him to "get good"
have you spent part of your life in a team house playing bw trying to be a pro? did you retire and practice hard for a fun comeback/showmatch/tournament only to have your opponent show you no respect to you, for no reason other than for attention? If you put yourself in his shoes, I think you can see why he is mad. What might seem funny to you might not to him, he has every right to and there's nothing wrong with that. His choice of words might be questionable however (shakey translations around) but don't tell him to "get gud".
On December 05 2017 05:27 NickHotS wrote: Larva has been my favorite streamer for a long time now. He is a good person, a husband, a father, and down to Earth guy. It's very sad to see him receiving all this flak.
The fact of the matter is, no one would have heard about these games or cared if he played straight up. He turned this one sided tournament into one of the most memorable Starcraft events ever.
It's sad how short sighted Zotac and Legend are being. They need to swallow their pride and realize this is nothing but good for the game.
Zotac had plenty of viewers and hype before Larva decided to shit on a fellow brood war player, this didnt make the tournament, it undermined it.
Regardless of Larva's rep, this kind of backlash was easily foreseeable, imo. That Larva didn't expect to be banned for what he saw as relatively innocuous shows a lack of consideration. Unfortunate, really, that it went down like this, but at least the tournament is gaining some notoriety
On December 05 2017 05:27 NickHotS wrote: Larva has been my favorite streamer for a long time now. He is a good person, a husband, a father, and down to Earth guy. It's very sad to see him receiving all this flak.
The fact of the matter is, no one would have heard about these games or cared if he played straight up. He turned this one sided tournament into one of the most memorable Starcraft events ever.
It's sad how short sighted Zotac and Legend are being. They need to swallow their pride and realize this is nothing but good for the game.
Zotac had plenty of viewers and hype before Larva decided to shit on a fellow brood war player, this didnt make the tournament, it undermined it.
Wut? If Larva finished this 3-0 in less than 30 min. no one even remembered this series. IIRC stream had 4k viewers (5k max) and most viewers left because they announced last prize code before finals started, also it was like 5-6 morning for EU. Even then everyone was so entertained and it lured viewership. What you said is untrue total BS.
I think the mindset was massively different- Legend thought this showmatch would be a chance to show how he's been to old fans, Larva obviously thought it would be Comedy Central. Cheers to Zotac for choosing an ambiguous side, but I honestly think that Larva should have displayed common sense and thought "hmm... maybe when my opponent (whom I barely know and is from a different country) is 10 years older than me and is sitting right across from me, maybe I shouldn't stick my foot up in his face" Again, my opinion
TL:DR Larva should deffo apologize- if Legend accepts then free him. If Larva and his defenders keep degrading BW legends for the sake of it, then Larva stops getting my monies
I think it's fine for chinese fans to be butthurt over the BM, I think it's fine for larva to have done the BM. He shouldn't be banned for it. #FreeLarva
On December 05 2017 05:27 NickHotS wrote: Larva has been my favorite streamer for a long time now. He is a good person, a husband, a father, and down to Earth guy. It's very sad to see him receiving all this flak.
The fact of the matter is, no one would have heard about these games or cared if he played straight up. He turned this one sided tournament into one of the most memorable Starcraft events ever.
It's sad how short sighted Zotac and Legend are being. They need to swallow their pride and realize this is nothing but good for the game.
Zotac had plenty of viewers and hype before Larva decided to shit on a fellow brood war player, this didnt make the tournament, it undermined it.
Wut? If Larva finished this 3-0 in less than 30 min. no one even remembered this series. IIRC stream had 4k viewers (5k max) and most viewers left because they announced last prize code before finals started, also it was like 5-6 morning for EU. Even then everyone was so entertained and it lured viewership. What you said is untrue total BS.
The amount of viewers and attention it had was more than a success given what it was; if you think a tournament being remembered for Larva being a rude mother fucker, and all the dramatic fall out afterwards qualifies as success, well, you have no idea what a successful tournament is, then.
On December 05 2017 05:41 RCCar wrote: I think the mindset was massively different- Legend thought this showmatch would be a chance to show how he's been to old fans, Larva obviously thought it would be Comedy Central. Cheers to Zotac for choosing an ambiguous side, but I honestly think that Larva should have displayed common sense and thought "hmm... maybe when my opponent (whom I barely know and is from a different country) is 10 years older than me and is sitting right across from me, maybe I shouldn't stick my foot up in his face" Again, my opinion
I read your "opinion" but actually Larva offraced and nuked Lx not Draco. I agree with everything but Larva shouldn't apologize.
On December 05 2017 05:27 NickHotS wrote: Larva has been my favorite streamer for a long time now. He is a good person, a husband, a father, and down to Earth guy. It's very sad to see him receiving all this flak.
The fact of the matter is, no one would have heard about these games or cared if he played straight up. He turned this one sided tournament into one of the most memorable Starcraft events ever.
It's sad how short sighted Zotac and Legend are being. They need to swallow their pride and realize this is nothing but good for the game.
Zotac had plenty of viewers and hype before Larva decided to shit on a fellow brood war player, this didnt make the tournament, it undermined it.
Wut? If Larva finished this 3-0 in less than 30 min. no one even remembered this series. IIRC stream had 4k viewers (5k max) and most viewers left because they announced last prize code before finals started, also it was like 5-6 morning for EU. Even then everyone was so entertained and it lured viewership.
so the viewers were there for the prizes anyway? And Larva's antics lured viewership how? It didn't blow up until a day later. What you say makes no sense. ps: what a great reason to remember a series. I'd rather forget it.
On December 05 2017 05:41 RCCar wrote: I think the mindset was massively different- Legend thought this showmatch would be a chance to show how he's been to old fans, Larva obviously thought it would be Comedy Central. Cheers to Zotac for choosing an ambiguous side, but I honestly think that Larva should have displayed common sense and thought "hmm... maybe when my opponent (whom I barely know and is from a different country) is 10 years older than me and is sitting right across from me, maybe I shouldn't stick my foot up in his face" Again, my opinion
I read your "opinion" but actually Larva offraced and nuked Lx not Draco. I agree with everything but Larva shouldn't apologize.
in fact, he is off racing Draco and drawing out the game, toying with his food, tank dropping, nuking. A trace of a smile, maybe, plays across Draco’s lips- outclassed, he understands. A ceremony.
Other Zotac cups? They consider to repeat this money burning? Next time maybe invite flash, so he can crush a non korean in 5 minutes 30 without showing emotions. At least the viewers can then again call out "faceless koreans".
On December 05 2017 05:27 NickHotS wrote: Larva has been my favorite streamer for a long time now. He is a good person, a husband, a father, and down to Earth guy. It's very sad to see him receiving all this flak.
The fact of the matter is, no one would have heard about these games or cared if he played straight up. He turned this one sided tournament into one of the most memorable Starcraft events ever.
It's sad how short sighted Zotac and Legend are being. They need to swallow their pride and realize this is nothing but good for the game.
Zotac had plenty of viewers and hype before Larva decided to shit on a fellow brood war player, this didnt make the tournament, it undermined it.
Wut? If Larva finished this 3-0 in less than 30 min. no one even remembered this series. IIRC stream had 4k viewers (5k max) and most viewers left because they announced last prize code before finals started, also it was like 5-6 morning for EU. Even then everyone was so entertained and it lured viewership. What you said is untrue total BS.
The amount of viewers and attention it had was more than a success given what it was; if you think a tournament being remembered for Larva being a rude mother fucker, and all the dramatic fall out afterwards qualifies as success, well, you have no idea what a successful tournament is, then.
A tournament where you have to pay Day9, Artosis, Tasteless,Incontrol, a studio and players' prizemoney and accomodoation might be alot, but it was definitly not a successful tournament with 5k english viewer peak.
On December 05 2017 05:27 NickHotS wrote: Larva has been my favorite streamer for a long time now. He is a good person, a husband, a father, and down to Earth guy. It's very sad to see him receiving all this flak.
The fact of the matter is, no one would have heard about these games or cared if he played straight up. He turned this one sided tournament into one of the most memorable Starcraft events ever.
It's sad how short sighted Zotac and Legend are being. They need to swallow their pride and realize this is nothing but good for the game.
Zotac had plenty of viewers and hype before Larva decided to shit on a fellow brood war player, this didnt make the tournament, it undermined it.
Wut? If Larva finished this 3-0 in less than 30 min. no one even remembered this series. IIRC stream had 4k viewers (5k max) and most viewers left because they announced last prize code before finals started, also it was like 5-6 morning for EU. Even then everyone was so entertained and it lured viewership. What you said is untrue total BS.
Sure, and if Larva had pulled out a gun and shot someone, it would have brought even more viewers and publicity. Just because something causes publicity, doesn't make it good for the scene or right.
On December 05 2017 05:41 RCCar wrote: I think the mindset was massively different- Legend thought this showmatch would be a chance to show how he's been to old fans, Larva obviously thought it would be Comedy Central. Cheers to Zotac for choosing an ambiguous side, but I honestly think that Larva should have displayed common sense and thought "hmm... maybe when my opponent (whom I barely know and is from a different country) is 10 years older than me and is sitting right across from me, maybe I shouldn't stick my foot up in his face" Again, my opinion
TL:DR Larva should deffo apologize- if Legend accepts then free him. If Larva and his defenders keep degrading BW legends for the sake of it, then Larva stops getting my monies
On December 05 2017 05:48 Clonester wrote: Other Zotac cups? They consider to repeat this money burning? Next time maybe invite flash, so he can crush a non korean in 5 minutes 30 without showing emotions. At least the viewers can then again call out "faceless koreans".
On December 05 2017 05:27 NickHotS wrote: Larva has been my favorite streamer for a long time now. He is a good person, a husband, a father, and down to Earth guy. It's very sad to see him receiving all this flak.
The fact of the matter is, no one would have heard about these games or cared if he played straight up. He turned this one sided tournament into one of the most memorable Starcraft events ever.
It's sad how short sighted Zotac and Legend are being. They need to swallow their pride and realize this is nothing but good for the game.
Zotac had plenty of viewers and hype before Larva decided to shit on a fellow brood war player, this didnt make the tournament, it undermined it.
Wut? If Larva finished this 3-0 in less than 30 min. no one even remembered this series. IIRC stream had 4k viewers (5k max) and most viewers left because they announced last prize code before finals started, also it was like 5-6 morning for EU. Even then everyone was so entertained and it lured viewership. What you said is untrue total BS.
The amount of viewers and attention it had was more than a success given what it was; if you think a tournament being remembered for Larva being a rude mother fucker, and all the dramatic fall out afterwards qualifies as success, well, you have no idea what a successful tournament is, then.
A tournament where you have to pay Day9, Artosis, Tasteless,Incontrol, a studio and players' prizemoney and accomodoation might be alot, but it was definitly not a successful tournament with 5k english viewer peak.
It was supposed to be a small time casual tournament, primarily geared towards the foreign fanbase, and of course peak viewership=/=viewership, as we have this thing called vods, you know? This was exactly the size anyone could of realistically expected and wanted. Larva playing with his feet was not.
1) Larva footcontrol and bming around was very funny as a standard viewer POV (99% of TL) 2) It was very rude for Lx and the chinese people felt humiliated by his moves, on purpose.
Why can't we all agree on this ? The situation is very simple.
Now how to sort it out: Larva should apologize because his behaviour offended many people and the offended people should try to understand that Larva wasn't aiming at them but just doing his usual routine, the same he's doing 7/7 on his afreaca stream.
On December 05 2017 05:27 NickHotS wrote: Larva has been my favorite streamer for a long time now. He is a good person, a husband, a father, and down to Earth guy. It's very sad to see him receiving all this flak.
The fact of the matter is, no one would have heard about these games or cared if he played straight up. He turned this one sided tournament into one of the most memorable Starcraft events ever.
It's sad how short sighted Zotac and Legend are being. They need to swallow their pride and realize this is nothing but good for the game.
Zotac had plenty of viewers and hype before Larva decided to shit on a fellow brood war player, this didnt make the tournament, it undermined it.
Wut? If Larva finished this 3-0 in less than 30 min. no one even remembered this series. IIRC stream had 4k viewers (5k max) and most viewers left because they announced last prize code before finals started, also it was like 5-6 morning for EU. Even then everyone was so entertained and it lured viewership. What you said is untrue total BS.
Sure, and if Larva had pulled out a gun and shot someone, it would have brought even more viewers and publicity. Just because something causes publicity, doesn't make it good for the scene or right.
Of course shooting somebody equals to playing with your feet on keyboard. How braindead ppl on TL nowadays. Was there any fucking rule from organizers that you shouldn't 1) offrace 2) nuke 3) kill your drone 4) play with your feet and etc.? If I was in Larva's place I would just sue the shit out of Zotac just because they banned him for no reason when he didn't crossed any rules. This community is so fake and cancer that you can't take it seriously anymore. I'm sure if there was FlaSh who won in 15 min. you would start shitshow again and called tesagi is real. You're hurting yourselves and your game instead of helping it and growing popularity. That's why SC genre will never reach heights of CS, LoL and DotA.
On December 05 2017 05:27 NickHotS wrote: Larva has been my favorite streamer for a long time now. He is a good person, a husband, a father, and down to Earth guy. It's very sad to see him receiving all this flak.
The fact of the matter is, no one would have heard about these games or cared if he played straight up. He turned this one sided tournament into one of the most memorable Starcraft events ever.
It's sad how short sighted Zotac and Legend are being. They need to swallow their pride and realize this is nothing but good for the game.
Zotac had plenty of viewers and hype before Larva decided to shit on a fellow brood war player, this didnt make the tournament, it undermined it.
Wut? If Larva finished this 3-0 in less than 30 min. no one even remembered this series. IIRC stream had 4k viewers (5k max) and most viewers left because they announced last prize code before finals started, also it was like 5-6 morning for EU. Even then everyone was so entertained and it lured viewership. What you said is untrue total BS.
Sure, and if Larva had pulled out a gun and shot someone, it would have brought even more viewers and publicity. Just because something causes publicity, doesn't make it good for the scene or right.
Of course shooting somebody equals to playing with your feet on keyboard. How braindead ppl on TL nowadays. Was there any fucking rule from organizers that you shouldn't 1) offrace 2) nuke 3) kill your drone 4) play with your feet and etc.? If I was in Larva's place I would just sue the shit out of Zotac just because they banned him for no reason when he didn't crossed any rules.
Do the people posting here actually watch the game/ read posts from both sides and try to determine what was actually the problem instead of trying to set up a general aggro?
On December 05 2017 06:03 ppp87 wrote: 1) Larva footcontrol and bming around was very funny as a standard viewer POV (99% of TL) 2) It was very rude for Lx and the chinese people felt humiliated by his moves, on purpose.
Why can't we all agree on this ? The situation is very simple.
Now how to sort it out: Larva should apologize because his behaviour offended many people and the offended people should try to understand that Larva wasn't aiming at them but just doing his usual routine, the same he's doing 7/7 on his afreaca stream.
I think the off-racing was fine, the nuke was fine, the dancing/killing of his drone was fine, but the foot thing and everything else he did outside of the game that humiliated his opponent was pretty uncalled for. I don't think Larva was trying to humiliate Lx as much as he was trying to entertain the viewers, but that's just what he ended up doing. Humiliating Lx.
imagine being on a date and the beautiful korean girl across from you just stuck her foot in her soup because you were talking to the waitress about what kind of soju you wanted to order. that's what larva did here..
On December 05 2017 06:13 Endymion wrote: imagine being on a date and the beautiful korean girl across from you just stuck her foot in her soup because you were talking to the waitress about what kind of soju you wanted to order. that's what larva did here..
On December 05 2017 05:27 NickHotS wrote: Larva has been my favorite streamer for a long time now. He is a good person, a husband, a father, and down to Earth guy. It's very sad to see him receiving all this flak.
The fact of the matter is, no one would have heard about these games or cared if he played straight up. He turned this one sided tournament into one of the most memorable Starcraft events ever.
It's sad how short sighted Zotac and Legend are being. They need to swallow their pride and realize this is nothing but good for the game.
Zotac had plenty of viewers and hype before Larva decided to shit on a fellow brood war player, this didnt make the tournament, it undermined it.
Wut? If Larva finished this 3-0 in less than 30 min. no one even remembered this series. IIRC stream had 4k viewers (5k max) and most viewers left because they announced last prize code before finals started, also it was like 5-6 morning for EU. Even then everyone was so entertained and it lured viewership. What you said is untrue total BS.
Sure, and if Larva had pulled out a gun and shot someone, it would have brought even more viewers and publicity. Just because something causes publicity, doesn't make it good for the scene or right.
Of course shooting somebody equals to playing with your feet on keyboard. How braindead ppl on TL nowadays. Was there any fucking rule from organizers that you shouldn't 1) offrace 2) nuke 3) kill your drone 4) play with your feet and etc.? If I was in Larva's place I would just sue the shit out of Zotac just because they banned him for no reason when he didn't crossed any rules. This community is so fake and cancer that you can't take it seriously anymore. I'm sure if there was FlaSh who won in 15 min. you would start shitshow again and called tesagi is real. You're hurting yourselves and your game instead of helping it and growing popularity. That's why SC genre will never reach heights of CS, LoL and DotA.
An analogy doesnt have to share every trait with the thing its compared to, in degree or form, it just has to have at least one point of valid comparison, i.e the very thing being compared in the analogy. In this case, shooting someone would be bad for the scene, and playing with your feet on the keyboard would be bad for the scene-- so yes, they are comparable, in that way. Which is the way he compared them.
A tournament doesnt have to directly rule out all the various possibilities in which someone could possibly go against basic social norms or the spirit of competition, how could they, anyways? Crossing the line should be pretty self evident, hes a fucking adult. Everyone there was an adult. Larva cant socially determine theres a difference between him doing antics privately on his own stream, to random ladder opponents, and him fucking with a guy in person, in a third party tournament? Puhlease.
That's why SC genre will never reach heights of CS, LoL and DotA
LMFAO WTF? Broodwar will never be popular BECAUSE BROODWAR PLAYERS WANT PEOPLE TO BE POLITE!!!
On December 05 2017 05:43 synapse wrote: I think it's fine for chinese fans to be butthurt over the BM, I think it's fine for larva to have done the BM. He shouldn't be banned for it. #FreeLarva
yeahyeah, if Larva didt it to Boxer or Nada, what will koreans do? for chinese, Lx is legend.
Is that all that went down? I see nothing wrong here. I can't believe that this is causing so much drama. We should celebrate Larva, that shit is funny. I lost all respect for Lx if he seriously complaint about this. It's honestly not any different from Firebat's ceremonies and nobody is complaining about them, right? Lx should step up his game if he wants to be taken serious. Not larva's fault that the skip gap is this big.
It's been quite a long while since my last time posting on TL. I just heard this from a friend and thus go and check it out here. The posts in this thread and others really surprised me. If this is the majority of TL users' idea such that this type of actions are acceptable, this community must have changed so much and so differently from the community that we used to know.
Regarding what Larva did, those were not just humiliating his opponents but also a disgrace to himself. As an old BW/SC fan I have never seen anything like this in a formal match. This is not helping the scene and is indeed pathetic.
Edit: please do not reply to my post or quote etc., as my stomach cannot bear it.
Honestly probably some sort of miscommunication happened...considering Zotac says that they never gave permission for Larva to do what he did, and Larva said he did ask for permission, I doubt either of them would lie about it.
Also misunderstandings about the purpose of the 'showmatch.' I wonder if Legend/Zotac honestly thought this was supposed to be a serious match, because his response on Weibo is pretty damn harsh (the translation doesn't do it justice imo): he seriously thinks Larva is mentally ill and literal trash.
Also Larva really didn't even do that much, aside from the first game where he kills his drone at the beginning. The incident where he put his foot on he did it for like 10 seconds, right after he fended off the second 2-gate attack and had basically won the game at that point. The playing with one hand only occurred at the very beginning when you don't even need all that apm, and the laying back in his char I honestly don't think it's that big of a deal.
However, he should apologize anyways because the chinese viewers right now think he was just being some sort of huge asshole on purpose just to disrepect Legend, also because he should realize he may have pushed it too far this time given the situation. I doubt he would do this to other broodwar legends like boxer or something if that ever happened.
As for incontrol, his casting during Larva's games just felt really off compared to the rest of the casters, and it wasn't really entertaining at all to listen to. you can say that 'yea it was just deadpan humor' but it just didn't fit in well, and can easily be misunderstood as being salty.
Amazing how so many people are on the Larva hate train and are calling his actions unprofessional and uncalled for.
Let's just strangle hold every player and even go so far as to limit typing in-game like what Kespa did back in the day. 'GG' only and nothing else, maybe a bow and a handshake at the beginning/ending of the game. Disqualify and penalize anyone that makes a move outside the line of what is deemed 'professional'
I actually feel terrible for Larva, not because of the ban since a tournament organizer can do whatever they want.. But because of how much unjustified hate people are giving him. Games are a medium for expressing yourself and pouring your heart and soul into whatever you're doing. Larva clearly loves Starcraft and his personality flows through his game, being mad at him and hating him for how he plays is like hating Hungrybox for playing Puff. It's depressing to see the pathetic reactions of Zotac cup and everyone else over this, something something sjw comment.
This is ridiculous. Did Larva break any rules? No, then dont f'ing ban him. Did he BM too much? Maybe...who cares(we all thought it was hilarious) Could he apologize to Legend for it? Sure..Though he doesn't need to really.... I did cheer a bit for legend when Larva started trolling that much, but his replies after the event makes me think hes an ass..
On December 05 2017 05:27 NickHotS wrote: Larva has been my favorite streamer for a long time now. He is a good person, a husband, a father, and down to Earth guy. It's very sad to see him receiving all this flak.
The fact of the matter is, no one would have heard about these games or cared if he played straight up. He turned this one sided tournament into one of the most memorable Starcraft events ever.
It's sad how short sighted Zotac and Legend are being. They need to swallow their pride and realize this is nothing but good for the game.
Zotac had plenty of viewers and hype before Larva decided to shit on a fellow brood war player, this didnt make the tournament, it undermined it.
Wut? If Larva finished this 3-0 in less than 30 min. no one even remembered this series. IIRC stream had 4k viewers (5k max) and most viewers left because they announced last prize code before finals started, also it was like 5-6 morning for EU. Even then everyone was so entertained and it lured viewership. What you said is untrue total BS.
Sure, and if Larva had pulled out a gun and shot someone, it would have brought even more viewers and publicity. Just because something causes publicity, doesn't make it good for the scene or right.
Of course shooting somebody equals to playing with your feet on keyboard. How braindead ppl on TL nowadays. Was there any fucking rule from organizers that you shouldn't 1) offrace 2) nuke 3) kill your drone 4) play with your feet and etc.? If I was in Larva's place I would just sue the shit out of Zotac just because they banned him for no reason when he didn't crossed any rules. This community is so fake and cancer that you can't take it seriously anymore. I'm sure if there was FlaSh who won in 15 min. you would start shitshow again and called tesagi is real. You're hurting yourselves and your game instead of helping it and growing popularity. That's why SC genre will never reach heights of CS, LoL and DotA.
An analogy doesnt have to share every trait with the thing its compared to, in degree or form, it just has to have at least one point of valid comparison, i.e the very thing being compared in the analogy. In this case, shooting someone would be bad for the scene, and playing with your feet on the keyboard would be bad for the scene-- so yes, they are comparable, in that way. Which is the way he compared them.
A tournament doesnt have to directly rule out all the various possibilities in which someone could possibly go against basic social norms or the spirit of competition, how could they, anyways? Crossing the line should be pretty self evident, hes a fucking adult. Everyone there was an adult. Larva cant socially determine theres a difference between him doing antics privately on his own stream, to random ladder opponents, and him fucking with a guy in person, in a third party tournament? Puhlease.
That's why SC genre will never reach heights of CS, LoL and DotA
LMFAO WTF? Broodwar will never be popular BECAUSE BROODWAR PLAYERS WANT PEOPLE TO BE POLITE!!!
hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahah
Violence is a lot worse than goofy disrespect. It's a very bad analogy for proving any point beyond "there is a point at which things aren't acceptable" which I don't think anyone has contested.
I would have loved to see Ret instead of Larva get invited. At least that way, EVERY single player playing last weekend would have a chance in the showmatch.
On December 05 2017 05:20 General Nuke Em wrote: So what incentive does Larva have to apologize if Zotac has already already banned him from future Zotac events? What are they going to do if he doesn't apologize, ban him again?
Decency? Reputation? Maturity? Acting like an adult?
We demand and apology after calling larva trash as well as his numerous fans!
On December 05 2017 05:24 Hawk2 wrote: And from the tournament thread here's just my thoughts regarding this ordeal as a player at the event :
Larva did nothing wrong.
The skill gap is so large between Korea and the rest of the world that if you want competitive and close games you shouldn't put Koreans vs. Foreigners. This has been demonstrated many times throughout brood war history. Winning against Koreans is so rare that when a foreigner does win against a Korean in tournament the feat makes history and often becomes the crowning achievement of the foreign player.
I was under the impression that this is well understood and that Zotac invited a Korean for the purpose of creating entertaining, but not necessarily competitive matches.
I was wrong, the Zotac guys seemed really convinced before and after the tournament that the games were close and that there is only a small difference in skill between Larva/Korea and everyone else. Combine this with the naming convention of "Showmatch Event" which implies that the primary purpose was entertainment and we get what happened.
Larva, myself and other players were under the impression that the invite showmatch was primarily for entertainment. Larva especially had difficulty talking with much of the staff and players at Zotac due to the language barrier. And as shown on the stream the translator had a tendency to translate what was said more nicely and made it milder. Given all of this I'm not surprised that Larva thinks he asked for permission and was okay to mess around and Zotac thinks he didn't.
Larva did his best to show exactly what he thought he was supposed to show at the event. The tournament had ambiguous expectations and it's reasonable to think that a showmatch will or should have showmanship, which is Larva's specialty.
My other thoughts are that outside of games Larva is one of the nicest and most helpful people I've met. Even with a huge language barrier he was happy to try and help me out with my game and even practice with me. I never once saw him say or do anything rude outside of the games and was always very respectful to everyone.
Last tidbit and brag I beat Larva's Terran in a practice game and I just don't know why I play my heart out in practice against Larva then play so sloppily when it actually matters.
I wonder if people are just so quick to post their two cents they miss a fairly large post from someone who was actually at the event. At the end of the day, it's a showmatch, it was for the views, and if you wanted publicity zotac should be thanking larva for it. It's the next day and people are still talking about this and probably will for the next forseeable future. It was a showmatch, it was supposed to be entertaining and it was.
There are bunch of ppl saying that Larva should respect his oppent... than why the ********* ********* u think it would be respectful to pick Zerg, destroy him 3:0 in 20 minutes, said "he tried" and go home?
Ppl impresion of robotic koreans needs to stop, I mean cmon BW ppl should be from the era where you was THAT guy who yelled at other one "u so bad bro" on LAN...
I mean there is also the rainbow scenarion where larva giving legend some tips on "How to play his race" which made the stream looking like a romantic tv show, which would already boring af....
I was fan of this format of cozy small show tournament, but yet again everyone should act like proffesional robot without soul makes it boring for me. If I wanna watch gameplay i can watch player streams, which are gonna be more entertaining than these robotic tournaments...
Way to see a nuanced, complex situation as completely black and white guys. The sad thing is that most people on TL are in their mid 30s by now and still act this way.
ZOTAC had to have known Larva's reputation when doing research for the showmatch. Then they suddenly expected a man who literally wore a costume to ASL to not do something funny in a foreign showmatch. It's like inviting the Globetrotters to play basketball and then getting mad when they mess around.
However, I understand why Chinese fans are butthurt. Lx was a really big player in his day and nobody likes to get savagely trolled 5 games in a row. But calling someone "mentally ill" after that is just as uncalled for. Believe it or not, it's possible to express feelings without attacking the other person.
All in all, it's kind of a crappy situation and I think that the whole thing was caused by miscommunication. However it will go down in history as one of the funniest/most infamous moments in BW history and that is something that this tournament would never have had without it.
On December 05 2017 06:36 nurle wrote: This is ridiculous. Did Larva break any rules? No, then dont f'ing ban him. Did he BM too much? Maybe...who cares(we all thought it was hilarious) Could he apologize to Legend for it? Sure..Though he doesn't need to really.... I did cheer a bit for legend when Larva started trolling that much, but his replies after the event makes me think hes an ass..
They reserve the right to ban anyone from their events, but what did Larva really do? He didn't talk trash or anything, just did funny stuff behind his computer.
All in all, it's kind of a crappy situation and I think that the whole thing was caused by miscommunication. However it will go down in history as one of the funniest/most infamous moments in BW history and that is something that this tournament would never have had without it.
Well, it's time for GTR to publish Progaming Incidents #3 - post KeSPA shenanigans
On December 05 2017 07:21 sweffymo wrote: Way to see a nuanced, complex situation as completely black and white guys. The sad thing is that most people on TL are in their mid 30s by now and still act this way.
ZOTAC had to have known Larva's reputation when doing research for the showmatch. Then they suddenly expected a man who literally wore a costume to ASL to not do something funny in a foreign showmatch. It's like inviting the Globetrotters to play basketball and then getting mad when they mess around.
However, I understand why Chinese fans are butthurt. Lx was a really big player in his day and nobody likes to get savagely trolled 5 games in a row. But calling someone "mentally ill" after that is just as uncalled for. Believe it or not, it's possible to express feelings without attacking the other person.
All in all, it's kind of a crappy situation and I think that the whole thing was caused by miscommunication. However it will go down in history as one of the funniest/most infamous moments in BW history and that is something that this tournament would never have had without it.
脑子有病的人 isn't as harsh like calling someone "mentally ill", it's more like if you called someone brain dead or crazy in english
lol how did this get another thread? really? are people that upset about it? i think LXs statement is very salty and if he just laughed it off and said "well i tried" or something, people would of sided with lx but honestly who cares, if you are going to witch hunt larva because of some cheeky little harmless bm he did then you're a snowflake imo. 2nd and last time im posting about this
Classic chinks to get upset over some jokes, sad to see Zotac bending over to the raging fans over this, doubtful if I'm gonna watch or buy zotac products after this.
On December 05 2017 07:33 Norzma wrote: Classic chinks to get upset over some jokes, sad to see Zotac bending over to the raging fans over this, doubtful if I'm gonna watch or buy zotac products after this.
I love people moralizing how "tl has gone downhill". Do people forget the days of idra or the tl attack series? Pretty sure there's always been heavy amount of trolling and BM here (in good fun). Especially when the skill disparity is not even close.
On December 05 2017 06:34 .vale. wrote: It's been quite a long while since my last time posting on TL. I just heard this from a friend and thus go and check it out here. The posts in this thread and others really surprised me. If this is the majority of TL users' idea such that this type of actions are acceptable, this community must have changed so much and so differently from the community that we used to know.
Regarding what Larva did, those were not just humiliating his opponents but also a disgrace to himself. As an old BW/SC fan I have never seen anything like this in a formal match. This is not helping the scene and is indeed pathetic.
Edit: please do not reply to my post or quote etc., as my stomach cannot bear it.
Similarly I heard about this through Reddit and after years of watching SC/BW I wanted to see how the TL community reacted. I however disagree with you completely. One of the funniest moments was the ceremonies that players did after games. It's been 10 years but I still remember FireBatHero dancing around in swim trunks.
I have no idea where grown adults get offended by someone joking around. If your pride is hurt use it as motivation to improve, the reality is Larva played the game with in some cases very notable disadvantages and he still won. There is nothing pathetic about it, besides the response by a few overly sensitive folks.
Wow didn't expect a ban on Larva from Zotac. Unfortunate for him.
I for one am perfectly OK with players doing silly crap in a SHOWMATCH. Especially one with such a huge skill gap difference. If you didn't want one player to try to handicap himself you should've brought in people of equal skill level and done a no koreans allowed thing like other tournaments. I mean seriously, you invited a top5 player in the world to play against a guy a decade older and way out of practice. What the hell did you think was going to happen. Larva could've ended the games in 6 minutes each and everyone would be like lol free 10k for Larva just get in get out. At least he made things funny and entertaining.
As for the hoard of Chinese fans getting upset and people criticizing that, I think any country would have done the same, especially other East Asian countries. There is a lot of pride and nationalism from most Asian countries and if the same happened the other way around, Koreans would be jumping up and down the same way as the Chinese fans have been. While I think the reaction is stupid and no fanbase should be doing it, it's going to be natural, especially with the East Asian rivalries.
At the end of the day, if you don't like what Larva has done, you can stop supporting him/being a fan of his. If you liked it, he's picked up some more fans. Either way, remember that a lot of what Larva does is an act, kind of like DrDisRespect. If you invite a personality player, you're going to get personality. If you invite a robot who only knows how to play seriously like a FlaSh, then you're going to get 1 side domination, you're going to get bored viewers.
As for the mentally unstable comment from Legend, if he meant it as an insult, you can't expect an apology after that. You just threw more gas onto the fire. And even if he didn't, it was incredibly passive aggressive and still probably doesn't warrant an apology. The dude's a showman. Get over it. Should've kicked his ass while playing with his foot and gotten him to shut up.
Oh well, can't wait for the next drama to occur. Can't wait to see the next tournament that Larva is in and for the anti-fans to start pouring him to root for the other guy. This is a good storyline and Larva is a great heel that Starcraft needs.
incontrol, they just translated your statement to larva on his stream btw, where you said you were just tired and trolling back. He seems pretty concerned over everything but lots of supportive people. http://play.afreecatv.com/dpfgc3
I honestly think that especially the organizer has a totally overblown reaction to this incident and entirely business-motivated. Call me jaded but being a football fan and former amateur player as well this is nothing.
I think Legend and the Chinese community are taking this way too personally. I really doubt Larva meant any disrespect. He just wanted to provide entertainment for the fans in a match that was obviously going to be a boring 3-0. Not only did he entertain me during the games, but also after them with the drama on the forums. I applaud him for his skills. While his behavior was unprofessional, it didn't strike me as inappropriate or offensive, considering the laidback vibe of the casters and atmosphere of the event.
If anyone is in the wrong here, it would be Legend and the tournament organizers. If Larva's behavior was unacceptable, they should've paused the game and told him to stop. They didn't, though, which is an implicit sign of approval. ZOTAC's ban on Larva just looks like a desperate attempt to maintain good standing with the Chinese community. The one showing a lack of sportsmanship and civility is Legend with his post, saying that Larva is trash and mentally ill. I think he owes Larva an apology.
Also, just a little note to iNcontroL. When you said Larva's thigh weighed 17 pounds, I thought you were taking a jab at Larva, trying to imply he had chicken legs and that the majority of his weight was elsewhere (his gut). Only after I read your post did I realize it was a "wtf" moment. Thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding.
What i dont understand is that nobody talks about Legend being so fkng BM and unpolite that he didnt even shook his hands with the other players, neither looked in their eyes after he won. And then he cries about being "disrespected". You get what you give.. In this case in really funny way.. XDDD
@Seeker, you should probably add a footnote to Legend's comment in the OP. He literally describes Larva as someone with "brain sickness". It's a fairly benign Chinese insult, equivalent of calling someone an idiot in English. I think the Google Translate makes his response sound much harsher than what he actually said ("mentally retarded"), and it might cause some unfair backlash.
I don't get it. Day9, Artosis, Incontrol, Larva, everyone there was very clearly told that it was going to be a relaxed tournament focused on hanging out, having fun, and joking around, and one player acts like a little bit more of a clown than most people expected (which, up until the "drama", if my social media feeds and the vast majority of live viewers are to be trusted, people overwhelming enjoyed), and one player took offense to it which led to someone getting banned, in turn stirring up a comparatively massive amount of nonsense and negativity. Right? Did I miss something?
The problems seem to stem from big issues between translations and two particular clashing player/culture attitudes.
As for Geoff's attitude, I saw nothing close to being seriously wrong during the event and his own post goes over, in detail, something that happens at all kinds of events, offline and online, small or large, serious or otherwise: When (usually not an [i]if[/if]) someone gets tired at the end of the day or decides to let everyone have more of the light for any reason, they do any one of the multiple things that Geoff did, talks about, and plenty of other casters/hosts/etc. have done for years.
The only surprising thing to me (okay, not too surprising) is that the supposedly better informed or more reasonable viewers within the community (people who use TL) still ignore so much of the context and information. How much this has blown up is pretty surprising too, though it's more what people are focusing on. Part of me was hoping there was something big I missed, but, nope. I gotta say, the whole deal is kinda just dumb.
As for this...
On December 05 2017 05:23 fish_radio wrote: Lx's words were mistranslated. I feel by Chinese standards at least;; "Mentally ill" and things like that are not offensive at all. The way it is written, he is genuine he believes Larva needs medical help.
This is a whole can of worms itself. Being called mentally ill, as far as I am aware, is not something most cultures around the world are okay with when the person saying it is not asked in private for that specific personal feedback. If that's an issue of different aspects of cultures coupled with poor translating, then, while perhaps it should not have been said and accepted to begin with, maybe it shouldn't have been translated to another player after having been said. Calling people "mentally ill", "retarded", "autistic", etc. etc., while being accepted to some degree within certain gaming communities or certain (often younger) audiences within those and other related communities, is generally understood to not be okay. Even with how "popular" that type of dialogue still is, and, from what I thought, was even worse in situations like this (tournaments, interviews, public, etc.). Note (big note tbh) that it is incorrect to say that it isn't offensive, because whether or not it is offensive does not depend on what the person who says something believes about what they said, rather it depends on whether or not the people hearing it are offended by it. Intention can have a big factor, but there are more things going on than just someone saying, even supposedly genuinely, that someone else is mentally ill.
On December 05 2017 08:42 Brutaxilos wrote: @Seeker, you should probably add a footnote to Legend's comment in the OP. He literally describes Larva as someone with "brain sickness". It's a fairly benign Chinese insult, equivalent of calling someone an idiot in English. I think the Google Translate makes his response sound much harsher than what he actually said ("mentally retarded"), and it might cause some unfair backlash.
"Brain sickness" is.. more acceptable than "mentally ill"... how, exactly?
On December 05 2017 08:42 Brutaxilos wrote: @Seeker, you should probably add a footnote to Legend's comment in the OP. He literally describes Larva as someone with "brain sickness". It's a fairly benign Chinese insult, equivalent of calling someone an idiot in English. I think the Google Translate makes his response sound much harsher than what he actually said ("mentally retarded"), and it might cause some unfair backlash.
"Brain sickness" is.. more acceptable than "mentally ill"... how, exactly?
idiot and moron were medical terms for people with mental disabilities, but no one bats an eye at that in america. no one cares if you call someone 神經病 in chinese
So, calling somebody an "idiot" in this situation is totally fine, then? Ya learn something every day... sad that it usually isn't what I hope to learn.
On December 05 2017 09:16 blunderfulguy wrote: So, calling somebody an "idiot" in this situation is totally fine, then?
Given what Larva did to Legend, yes. Calling him "mentally retarded" is a bit much, but calling him an "idiot" is perfectly acceptable for the situation.
I understand that Legend feels that Larva disrespected him. He was there in a completely foreign country as a guest and as someone representing China (former pride of BW-China) and himself as someone with a respected career in this game. Its one thing to BM someone who you know or have some history with (good or bad), but this kind of behaviour from Larva was just bad judgement from him. People blindly defending Larva here should try and imagine how it would have felt for Legend and his chinese fans to watch those events. Is this how you would have liked to be treated as guest? As someone representing a certain set of pride of a nation related to a given sport? To be represented that way for a foreign audience? Again, trolling someone can be fun, but there are social contexts to decide when its okay and when it isnt.
People talking about how it was ok because it being a showmatch, need to understand that unspoken rules of social decensy dont get thrown out of the window just because you are playing games titled "showmatch". I dont know what Larva was thinking, maybe he thought that he got invited also because for his crazy antics while streaming and that his foreign fans wanted him to deliver on that, but clearly Legend had different expectations than to be just remembered as the guy at the other end of Larva's jokes.
I dont think necessarily there was any bad intent from Larva and therefore i dont think that a ban, but a warning with a request for an apology should be a more warranted.
Lastly i would say its easy to be smart in hindsight. I was not sure how to react during the games. I didnt like it that much, but then again it was also a bit funny (just for the absurdity in it). But when thinking about it afterwards (and how it felt for the people offended) i have come to the conclusion you see above.
Shocked that people can be mad at Larva for this. It was a showmatch.
When I go out and play basketball and I notice the guy is a lot worse than me, hell yeah I'm gonna mess with him and make him look like a fool. Just like he would make me look like a fool if the situation was reversed. That's half the fun of competition.
I really think people are just taking life and starcraft too seriously.
edit: I see a lot of people saying they wouldn't have minded as much if he did troll builds. How is that any different? Both of them are for the sole purpose of making your opponent look like a goof for the viewers benefit.
It's either that, or with how easy Larva made this look, he could have played standard and ended every game within 7 minutes. That would have been such a bore.
I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
This was definitely not what he expect.
I'm imagining it... and I still don't care.
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
Writing with pylons ingame, thumbing down players. Literally pulling of your t-shirt and go swimming at the beach, after you win. It all happened before without it becoming a big drama. It is just a part of this game. Even before streaming became big. This is the no-fun game where no one is "respected" unless you win and then you can have fun.
On December 05 2017 10:40 Endymion wrote: so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
Yes I would be annoyed and yes it is rude. However since larva is so good, he can do whatever he wants. Its how everything here works.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
This was definitely not what he expect.
I'm imagining it... and I still don't care.
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
Writing with pylons ingame, thumbing down players. Literally pulling of your t-shirt and go swimming at the beach, after you win. It all happened before without it becoming a big drama. It is just a part of this game. Even before streaming became big. This is the no-fun game where no one is "respected" unless you win and then you can have fun.
Never forget the pylon heart and stasising your own units. Much I love you forever. And everyone was hyping it up if anything, not saying bad stuff. Just because you might have a fan bias towards Legend, it shouldn't get in the way of a good BM/disrespect. Scout BM was great from Bisu in his games, even if I hate Bisu with a passion, and even when I was a huge savior fan and saw FBH BMing him, I was more upset that Savior sucked rather than FBH doing pelvic thrusts at him.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
Writing with pylons ingame, thumbing down players. Literally pulling of your t-shirt and go swimming at the beach, after you win. It all happened before without it becoming a big drama. It is just a part of this game. Even before streaming became big. This is the no-fun game where no one is "respected" unless you win and then you can have fun.
So true! Since when BroodWar became snowflakes game? I have nothing against Legend but his play was really trash, his APM was twice, thrice low as Larva's. I wonder how he managed to take down Michael and Draco.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote:
On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
This was definitely not what he expect.
I'm imagining it... and I still don't care.
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
I do not think Larva set out to insult/humiliate his opponents (as others have pointed out he does it on his streams frequently), but the acts themselves have come across as poor showmanship really and I can sympathise with Legend. He's a pro poker player now in his mid thirties and I'm sure he's mainly there for the fun rather than the money anyway.
Yes there is a huge skill difference but there are many other handicaps that are more entertaining/interesting to watch. For example he can do manner hatcheries/broodlings/ensnare/giving vision/mass muta with 2 group muta micro or maybe even do 1 hatch lurker (to show Michael how to do it properly) etc... An analogy would be football (soccer) players doing offensive goal celebrations in a friendly match/showmatch - that would definitely be regarded as an unsportsmanlike conduct. It is way more acceptable to do it say in a really important match. Also, the handicaps weren't even done till mid/late game where he had all the advantage - it would be completely different had he started playing with his feet right from the beginning.
On a personal level I have never found these acts to be particularly funny (i.e. keyboard smashing/pouring soy sauce over you etc etc...) One may argue that Legend perhaps overreacted a little bit but this is difficult - we all know how BW affects our emotions and it may well be a tweet made in the heat of the moment. We are also not sure how closely he follows the afreeca scene.
I'm a little bit sad not about the incident itself but the fact that BW has turned from an actual e-sports to some kind of entertainment now. Gone are the days of the progamers, we now have BJs instead who place a lot of emphasis on entertainment - as Larva has pointed out he's a showman now. Having followed the Afreeca scene on and off this is of course nothing new but seeing an incident like this has just made me realise that we'll never get the professional BW scene back.... (Not that I had huge hopes anyway!)
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote:
On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
This was definitely not what he expect.
I'm imagining it... and I still don't care.
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
It's totally okay to have mixed emotions about this. I always find it weird when many people try to have one emotion about the whole thing when there's many aspects to it.
- Larva did some BM, and he did it two series in a row. Both playing as Terran and Nuking, and then playing Zerg and doing both in-game and out-of-game BM. - Legend came all the way from China to get BM'd pretty hard for half of his series. - Larva and the translator apparently had some miscommunications. - The event was laidback and pretty free form, thus open to being a bit more "cheeky"
For some reason people are unable to process it's okay to feel bad for Legend but also see that Larva was being funny and can see how he got the impression it would've been okay to do that. I feel both of these can exist at the same time.
I wish people would stop being ridiculously offensive with this. I'm not going to assume how each culture does what with what. If Zotac felt significantly upset with Larva, that's their call. I can guess a few reasons why they're this upset, but I'm trying to not assume anything more than it hurt their brand in some way. I personally would've like to see an open discussion with Larva first asking for an apology or ban.
Overall, I'm pretty bummed I left the event right before this all happened
Lx: you are still in the hearth of every Protoss player who watched your replays long years ago, you are still a legend for us, please forget this incident, and keep your love for Starcraft. If Larva apologizes for you accept his apologizes, if he not it's his problem.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
Writing with pylons ingame, thumbing down players. Literally pulling of your t-shirt and go swimming at the beach, after you win. It all happened before without it becoming a big drama. It is just a part of this game. Even before streaming became big. This is the no-fun game where no one is "respected" unless you win and then you can have fun.
On December 05 2017 10:40 Endymion wrote: so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
Yes I would be annoyed and yes it is rude. However since larva is so good, he can do whatever he wants. Its how everything here works.
Some of the ceremonies did cause a bit of controversy in Korea/Foreigner scene. The heart cannon is done as a revenge for the ceremony - this is NOT unprovoked. Being good at a game does not make you have the right to become bad-mannered. Especially in a friendly match against an INFERIOR opponent. Being Ronaldo does not give you the right to be rude to the other players.
Also this part of the game is relatively late in the grand scheme of things (Pro-BW started ~ 2001) - done by the younger generation progamers. Prior to that it is mostly just trash-talk/mind games etc...
Of course BW is all about "the show" now so you can argue these things are now acceptable...
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote:
On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
This was definitely not what he expect.
I'm imagining it... and I still don't care.
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote:
On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
This was definitely not what he expect.
I'm imagining it... and I still don't care.
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
Writing with pylons ingame, thumbing down players. Literally pulling of your t-shirt and go swimming at the beach, after you win. It all happened before without it becoming a big drama. It is just a part of this game. Even before streaming became big. This is the no-fun game where no one is "respected" unless you win and then you can have fun.
On December 05 2017 10:40 Endymion wrote: so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
Yes I would be annoyed and yes it is rude. However since larva is so good, he can do whatever he wants. Its how everything here works.
Some of the ceremonies did cause a bit of controversy in Korea/Foreigner scene. The heart cannon is done as a revenge for the ceremony so you cannot say these acts are unprovoked. Being good at a game does not make you have the right to become bad-mannered. Especially in a friendly match against an INFERIOR opponent. Being Ronaldo does not give you the right to be rude to the other players.
Also this part of the game is relatively late in the grand scheme of things (Pro-BW started 2001) - done by the younger generation progamers. Prior to that it is mostly just trash-talk/mind games etc...
Of course BW is all about "the show" now so you can argue these things are now acceptable...
Broadcasted BW always had an entertainment aspect to it. Heck thats why there are charismatic commentators. If you just would like to analyze the game you could also just watch replays. It is disingenious to say that this is a "show" business now and before it was all 100% serious no fun allowed mode, where everyone always treated everyone with dignity and respect.
Beeing good at BW, always gave you the right to be bad mannered. Nothing has changed, except maybe that people grew out of that mentality after 15+ years and now frown upon it.
Also coming up with real life analogies for something to condemn gaming culture is also off. Gaming culture has alot of propreties that are considered offensive/disrespectful.
Last years all I heard was LoL, Overwatch, CS, pubg. Thanks to the "foot thing" I had all my friends asking me if I saw a guy playing "my game" with the foot. This thing was more good than bad. C'mon this was not ASL or GSL.. It was suppose to be more fun. Long live Starcraft! Long live Lx! Long live Larva!
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote:
On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
This was definitely not what he expect.
I'm imagining it... and I still don't care.
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
Before you go down the rabbit hole with different kinds of BM...
But now I see that I was completely wrong. Even if you were to nuke me in game I would just laugh it off. Outside the game you act like a clown, this is the difference between you and a 1st place professional player.
It seems like Legend would have been completely ok with in game BM. When Larva took it out of the game, sitting right across from him, that is when it got a little too far for Legend (and for many people as well). Mew2King playing pichu would have been fine. Lets not lose focus on why exactly Legend (hence his fans) were provoked.
Meh. Let's just get over this. Larva did something stupid and got backlashed. End of story. Also I doubt ZOTAC is going to sponsor any big bw tournament after this. But we will see.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote:
On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
This was definitely not what he expect.
I'm imagining it... and I still don't care.
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
Mew2King literally has aspergers, and I would forgive him for behaving in a manner that is not typical socially. Do you really want to relegate the entire professional scene of Starcraft to that level?
Some people here apparently think Lx is some random foreign scrub who doesn't take Starcraft seriously. He is not. Ten years ago he too was a progamer, training like crazy trying to make the top. He battled in premium tournaments when Larva was still a no-namer. He'd largely gone on with his life now, but that doesn't make it right to publicly humilate him like he's some kind of imbecile. Showman or not, you don't do that shit against respected old players.
Noone would care if he did that to Draco because everyone knows that Larva is like 1000 times better than Draco.If you watched the Italian tournament the korean guy won it easily and it wasnt fun to watch at all.I hope Larva wont stop his BM because of the stupid Chinese company Zotac in the future.
On December 05 2017 12:12 Zealgoon wrote: Some people here apparently think Lx is some random foreign scrub who doesn't take Starcraft seriously. He is not. Ten years ago he too was a progamer, training like crazy trying to make the top. He battled in premium tournaments when Larva was still a no-namer. He'd largely gone on with his life now, but that doesn't make it right to publicly humilate him like he's some kind of imbecile. Showman or not, you don't do that shit against respected old players.
How Larva could be someone 10 years ago when he was literally kid? Now he's someone and Lx is no one. End of story.
Honestly, the games were stale as hell. Larva's antics were the only thing keeping me watching the stream. Even the commentators looked unenthusiastic and yawned several times right in front of the camera. They only ever got riled up when Larva was playing.
If ZOTAC were smart, they'd keep bringing Larva back except invite some players closer to his level. People that oppose him will tune in to watch him lose and his fans will tune in to see, well, Larva being Larva.
SCBW isn't exactly in it's prime. We need some characters to keep this thing going.
Outrage after somebody disrespects their opponents as a showmanship comes with the territory. So does publicity. It's all part of the baggage. I didn't even know this tournament was going on until the outrage popped up.
With that being said, people who draw the line in accordance with their own specific parameters, and to pretend that their individual tastes should be acknowledged as universal truths, are quite frankly speaking, delusional.
It's like edgy comedy, everybody is just fine with it until the subject matter brushes on something too close to heart. People laugh at some at some of the most heinous shit you could imagine, such as the death of a fellow human being, making light of a serious social phenomenon, then when the jokes moves on to their personal sacred zone, such as their religion of choice, gender or nationality, they suddenly become outraged.
Sure what Larva did was incredibly disrespectful, but don't give me that bullshit about being outraged because Larva did it versus somebody older, or was far more accomplished as a professional player.
How much outrage do you think was caused when Larva danced mid-game versus Sea in the semi-finals of a much more prestigious tournament?
It is understandable that Legend is upset with the huge disrespect. It is understandable that people who care for Legend and what he stands for is upset with the huge disrespect. What is not understandable is when people come up with bullshit reasons such as the lack of sincerity for their level of outrage. People are outraged less about the actions carried out by Larva, but who it was directed against, since Larva has always been an obnoxious clown who doesn't hold back from doing in-game disrespect versus his SK Telecom T1 seniors such as BeSt, should the opportunity present itself.
If people desire a certain level of respect, that is fine. If people want to support their favourite player after being disrespected in one of the most humiliating ways, that is fine. But don't give me that bullshit of always wanting a healthy level of respect and honour in Brood War only when the situation irks you for whatever personal reasons you have.
If nowadays the game needs someone to act like a monkey for it to be enjoyable then we can easily say that BW days are long gone, it's not like most care more about the game over its culture and drama here anyway as it has shown million times over the years. Next time invite Larva to do Terror-like stuff on stream, it will have even more publicity 100%
Lavar stream the debriefing in his own channel in 생 스타홍구 영구제명 해명합니다 최종 공지 http://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/28545029 he said that the banning him in zotac cup is zotac"china"s dogmatic decision. zotac "korea and america " is helping for him to solve this problem. Also he said that he tried to appolize to Lx face to face but Lx refused to accept it.
Wow Lx is sooooo crybaby, my gosh. I lost all my respect.
I think the only surprise here is how Zotac reacted. I can understand if Legend or his fans were upset because Larva pretty much humiliated him in a dominating fashion. Zotac banning Larva is just silly and it speaks more how immature its management is. Larva didn't break any rules and the tournament had a pretty casual atmosphere. It was a showmatch afterall. If Zotac really had problems with the BM, why didn't they tell him to tone it down after the first series or give him a warning? This is just stupid
Lavar stream the debriefing in his own channel in 생 스타홍구 영구제명 해명합니다 최종 공지 http://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/28545029 he said that the banning him in zotac cup is zotac"china"s dogmatic decision. zotac "korea and america " is helping for him to solve this problem. Also he said that he tried to appolize to Lx face to face but Lx refused to accept it.
Wow Lx is sooooo crybaby, my gosh. I lost all my respect.
Yeah, he also said that he had permission to do what he did while apparently he didn't, I'd wait
1) Larva made the event entartaining 2) Lx got butthurt and called him and his fans "mentally retarded" and trash 3) Larva said he asked permission to perform those stunts 4) Larva tried to apologize to Lx face to face but Lx refused to accept it after match 5) Zotac lied (IMO) and said Larva didn't ask permission and banned Larva (I refuse to believe Larva could lie about this)
On December 05 2017 12:57 outscar wrote: Someone posted on reddit:
Lavar stream the debriefing in his own channel in 생 스타홍구 영구제명 해명합니다 최종 공지 http://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/28545029 he said that the banning him in zotac cup is zotac"china"s dogmatic decision. zotac "korea and america " is helping for him to solve this problem. Also he said that he tried to appolize to Lx face to face but Lx refused to accept it.
Wow Lx is sooooo crybaby, my gosh. I lost all my respect.
Yeah, he also said that he had permission to do what he did while apparently he didn't, I'd wait
So you now calling Larva liar or what? Where's your evidence? I'm 100% sure Zotac saying now otherwise because company is chinese and they don't want to see Larva anymore that's why.
As a SC fans from China myself: "过去送个外卖娱乐下怎么遇到这种脑子有病的人.你能从中获得什么乐趣或者为了积累到一些弱智粉丝.开始知道你这个人的时候还认为你的努力获得应有的成绩让我觉得挺励志.现在在我看来简直瞎了眼.游戏里的事哪怕你丢我原子弹我也就笑笑.游戏之外你就是一个小丑的表现.这就是你和冠军选手的差别.垃圾" means: I was prepared for an losing match for entertainment.How come did I meet such a disrespectful/ill-minded/doesn't-know-what-he-was-doing guy? What kind of joy would you get from this? Do you do this to please ill-minded fans? I respected you in the beginning because I thought you earn your achievement through hardworking, and you deserved it. But I was wrong. I would laugh at myself even if you put a nuclear bomb(which is a joke to end the game in the Chinese context) or anything like that in the game. But you acted like a clown. That's the difference between you and a champion player." In another post from LX's Weibo, LX said he knew this event after the game from a group chat, and he was jaw-dopped then. Zotac apologised on their Weibo page. As for their twitter, I don't know.
I think Larva goes too far at this joke thing. I understand that players would dance after a game to draw attention and to promote the game. Putting your feet on a keyboard is another thing. If this is acceptable, any Chinese ping-pong player should take a pot into a ping-pong match and lets see, what would happen if they WIN/LOSE with a pot in hand? The keyboard is something you touch directly to play this game. This move is disrespectful to anybody who plays broodwar. You don't want to be treated like that, especially for people like LX, who is a hero to the chinese broodwar fans, and who is a father.
On December 05 2017 12:52 aQuaSC wrote: If nowadays the game needs someone to act like a monkey for it to be enjoyable then we can easily say that BW days are long gone, it's not like most care more about the game over its culture and drama here anyway as it has shown million times over the years. Next time invite Larva to do Terror-like stuff on stream, it will have even more publicity 100%
Were you expecting some close and exciting games of Larva vs foreigners?
On December 05 2017 12:57 outscar wrote: Someone posted on reddit:
Lavar stream the debriefing in his own channel in 생 스타홍구 영구제명 해명합니다 최종 공지 http://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/28545029 he said that the banning him in zotac cup is zotac"china"s dogmatic decision. zotac "korea and america " is helping for him to solve this problem. Also he said that he tried to appolize to Lx face to face but Lx refused to accept it.
Wow Lx is sooooo crybaby, my gosh. I lost all my respect.
Yeah, he also said that he had permission to do what he did while apparently he didn't, I'd wait
So you now calling Larva liar or what? Where's your evidence? I'm 100% sure Zotac saying now otherwise because company is chinese and they don't want to see Larva anymore that's why.
I'm not calling nobody a liar, he said that, they said otherwise, whoever you're in favor of is right I guess
On December 05 2017 12:52 aQuaSC wrote: If nowadays the game needs someone to act like a monkey for it to be enjoyable then we can easily say that BW days are long gone, it's not like most care more about the game over its culture and drama here anyway as it has shown million times over the years. Next time invite Larva to do Terror-like stuff on stream, it will have even more publicity 100%
Were you expecting some close and exciting games of Larva vs foreigners?
I guess not, I just don't need seeing people being disrespected to enjoy a video game stream but I think it's all just a matter of sense of humor, many people derive fun from someone being hurt in whatever way. I would not have fun while being humiliated with a foot just like many of you don't like being stomped while trying very hard and getting offensive gg-ed on ladder (or maybe you do?) but I'm sure a ton of people would be happy to see that and proceed to call me names afterwards
On December 05 2017 12:57 ilikeredheads wrote: I think the only surprise here is how Zotac reacted. I can understand if Legend or his fans were upset because Larva pretty much humiliated him in a dominating fashion. Zotac banning Larva is just silly and it speaks more how immature its management is. Larva didn't break any rules and the tournament had a pretty casual atmosphere. It was a showmatch afterall. If Zotac really had problems with the BM, why didn't they tell him to tone it down after the first series or give him a warning? This is just stupid
apparently only china zotac say "ban larva", not the us zotac .
next match, larva's foot vs nada or draco . good guess. or maybe d,for the benifit of entertament and publicty.
On December 05 2017 13:03 VankaWang wrote: As a SC fans from China myself: "过去送个外卖娱乐下怎么遇到这种脑子有病的人.你能从中获得什么乐趣或者为了积累到一些弱智粉丝.开始知道你这个人的时候还认为你的努力获得应有的成绩让我觉得挺励志.现在在我看来简直瞎了眼.游戏里的事哪怕你丢我原子弹我也就笑笑.游戏之外你就是一个小丑的表现.这就是你和冠军选手的差别.垃圾" means: I was prepared for an losing match for entertainment.How come did I meet such a disrespectful/ill-minded/doesn't-know-what-he-was-doing guy? What kind of joy would you get from this? Do you do this to please ill-minded fans? I respected you in the beginning because I thought you earn your achievement through hardworking, and you deserved it. But I was wrong. I would laugh at myself even if you put a nuclear bomb(which is a joke to end the game in the Chinese context) or anything like that in the game. But you acted like a clown. That's the difference between you and a champion player." In another post from LX's Weibo, LX said he knew this event after the game from a group chat, and he was jaw-dopped then. Zotac apologised on their Weibo page. As for their twitter, I don't know.
I think Larva goes too far at this joke thing. I understand that players would dance after a game to draw attention and to promote the game. Putting your feet on a keyboard is another thing. If this is acceptable, any Chinese ping-pong player should take a pot into a ping-pong match and lets see, what would happen if they WIN/LOSE with a pot in hand? The keyboard is something you touch directly to play this game. This move is disrespectful to anybody who plays broodwar. You don't want to be treated like that, especially for people like LX, who is a hero to the chinese broodwar fans, and who is a father.
I recommend scrolling up and reading the post by Letmelose. If you personally draw the line at feet on keyboard, that's fine. However, saying it is disrespectful to anybody who plays broodwar is ridiculous lol.
On December 05 2017 12:57 ilikeredheads wrote: I think the only surprise here is how Zotac reacted. I can understand if Legend or his fans were upset because Larva pretty much humiliated him in a dominating fashion. Zotac banning Larva is just silly and it speaks more how immature its management is. Larva didn't break any rules and the tournament had a pretty casual atmosphere. It was a showmatch afterall. If Zotac really had problems with the BM, why didn't they tell him to tone it down after the first series or give him a warning? This is just stupid
Actually, seeing the Chinese netizen's reactions and all those articles in their press, I'm not surprised at all that Zotac would ban him. Seems like it could really endanger their business to not take an absolute stance. It's been kind of shocking to me to see how deadly serious Chinese people on here seem to be taking the incident. I would feel hurt and upset too if I were a longtime Lx fan, but I don't think I would be calling for blood like some of these comments.
On December 05 2017 09:16 blunderfulguy wrote: So, calling somebody an "idiot" in this situation is totally fine, then? Ya learn something every day... sad that it usually isn't what I hope to learn.
so many people acting like merely calling someone idiot as a response to them publicly degrading you is just as bad. Like yeah, Larva will be terribly upset over someone calling him an idiot, sure.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote:
On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
This was definitely not what he expect.
I'm imagining it... and I still don't care.
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities.
Omg name dropping Kant and Rousseau. I feel such gratitude to larva for creating this delicious dramas.
[/QUOTE] I recommend scrolling up and reading the post by Letmelose. If you personally draw the line at feet on keyboard, that's fine. However, saying it is disrespectful to anybody who plays broodwar is ridiculous lol.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the recommendation. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing funny about playing this game with your feet before its ending if you started it with your hands. Because I myself will NEVER do it playing against anybody. And it is not about lacking a sense of humor. I don't have a problem with anybody who enjoy things like that. But I will turn away from them. 己所不欲，勿施于人。We must agree to disagree.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar. I don't think any of these people had a huge issue with what Larva did until he decided to deploy his clown-like behaviour onto their countryman.
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
On December 05 2017 13:01 outscar wrote: So if we sum this what we got here?
1) Larva made the event entartaining 2) Lx got butthurt and called him and his fans "mentally retarded" and trash 3) Larva said he asked permission to perform those stunts 4) Larva tried to apologize to Lx face to face but Lx refused to accept it after match 5) Zotac lied (IMO) and said Larva didn't ask permission and banned Larva (I refuse to believe Larva could lie about this)
That sounds like an accurate summary, yes. It's a pretty silly situation all around at this point lol.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities.
100% agree.
I find it amusing how well spoken you are compared to those who spam #freelarva or act like Lx has no right be mad. You would think most people playing BW would be more mature, with it being a 20 year old game. Then again, I bet larvas afreeca viewers are all teenagers too.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses.
what's false about it? The relations between the countries are not fantastic, Larva's well aware of that, Legend's well aware of that. It is the context you can't ignore. Whatever the controversy was gonna happen, it was bound to be viewed through that prism and Larva, being the initiator, should've taken that into account. Plus, he didn't bm other players. Sure, he did a bow when shaking Legend's hand after the game so you can see there was no malicious intent but how the fuck was Legend supposed to know that?
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities.
Really? I think it's far more irrational to make a big deal about it, take emotions out of it and tell me how exactly anyone was harmed by what Larva did?
It was clearly a relaxed atmopshere, not some super serious competition. If you think that someone playing a video game with with their foot for a short time is some huge moral issue, go watch some comedians and grow a sense of humour.
For those who believe that Legend should earn his respect. This guy was one of the few non-korean starcraft 1 player that won a world champion he stopped playing about 10 years ago. Humiliating a retired player is nothing to be proud of...This is disrespectful to the opponent, to himself and to the entire e-sports.
I hope larva learns to be more mature outside of korea. If he wants to keep a job that is, hurting communities like the chinese scene is a very stupid thing to do.
Also, what's up with the dumbasses who think getting upvotes of reddit videos is more important than maintaining and growing the chinese scene.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities.
100% agree.
I find it amusing how well spoken you are compared to those who spam #freelarva or act like Lx has no right be mad. You would think most people playing BW would be more mature, with it being a 20 year old game. Then again, I bet larvas afreeca viewers are all teenagers too.
That is essentially what I expected from BW players, since most of us should be in our 30s already. Apparently, I was wrong and it appears that mental maturity does not correlate very well with physical age. I had hoped for BW to progress into a classic esport with mature players, like chess or go, aimed at more refined audiences, but maybe I'm expecting too much.
On December 05 2017 15:32 youngjiddle wrote: I hope larva learns to be more mature outside of korea. If he wants to keep a job that is, hurting communities like the chinese scene is a very stupid thing to do.
Also, what's up with the dumbasses who think getting upvotes of reddit videos is more important than maintaining and growing the chinese scene.
Why should this hurt the Chinese scene? If anything it's motivation to get revenge. Anyway I don't see how it's larva's job to monitor the health of Chinese bw.
In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote:
On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
This was definitely not what he expect.
I'm imagining it... and I still don't care.
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities.
Really? I think it's far more irrational to make a big deal about it, take emotions out of it and tell me how exactly anyone was harmed by what Larva did?
It was clearly a relaxed atmopshere, not some super serious competition. If you think that someone playing a video game with with their foot for a short time is some huge moral issue, go watch some comedians and grow a sense of humour.
TBH I didn't think much of Larva's behaviour, what he did was within my expectations, I personally just laughed off it, but I can totally understand why many couldn't stand it. Rationally speaking, playing with your feet against a retired veteran shows nothing but your immaturity and disrespect towards your opponent, even if you didn't mean it. Watch Jet Li's movie "Fearless" and see how the Japanese Samurai behaved when he fought and won against a handicapped Li at the end of the movie, that is true respect against a weaker opponent.
The problem was that LX did not expect this behaviour, he came prepared as if it was a serious match, if Larva had communicated with LX beforehand everything would be fine, but he didn't. Disrespect is disrespect, the particular circumstances or context does not invalidate the nature of the behaviour or attitude itself. If you don't think disrespect is a moral issue, I suggest you read this page: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/#SomImpIss , specifically, in part 2.1 the author attempts to answer the question "What is it about persons that makes them matter morally and makes them worthy of respect?"
In Larva's first statement on his stream, he mentioned that 'talked to the organizer before', 'everyone take photos afterwards and they are cool'. ZOTAC said ' Larva did not notify of the organizers of his actions, and his statement of "having the organizer's permission" is not TRUE.' and in more recent statement, he mentioned he 'went to see Legend after the game at night to apologize in person but he refused to see me and wrote that post on his SNS afterwards', so obviously Legend is not cool about it from the very beginning. I don't want to call out Larva as a liar on his part but there is some contradictions between his statements.
I am actually surprise by the bias of the western community on this incident. Just imagine if Draco was the one on the GF.It is certainly not ‘larva did noting wrong’. BMs are acceptable in game, offrace is fine, drone-dancing is fine and nuke is fine. But in person, is just too much.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses.
what's false about it? The relations between the countries are not fantastic, Larva's well aware of that, Legend's well aware of that. It is the context you can't ignore. Whatever the controversy was gonna happen, it was bound to be viewed through that prism.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The disproportionate reaction to this otherwise unimportant event was largely thanks to the nationalistic elements that some people connected to it. It's quite frankly hilarious to see attempts to deny any correlation, or people pretending that they have always been concerned over the lack of respect found in the Brood War scene, which is why they decided to chime their thoughts on the matter only when it was their player of choosing that got disrespected.
Quite obviously some people are using this event merely as a vessel of venting their pent up emotions on matters that has very little to do with the code of ethics found within the Brood War scene. That's bullshit if you ask me, and why should I encourage those who are flooding the Brood War forum for the sole purposes of beating that nationalistic drum?
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
I think the issue is that LX was one of the best foreign players in the world, but we all know that age matters a lot in BW and once you hit around 27-28 years of age no amount of practice can save the natural deterioration of your brain, saying that he should "get good" is unrealistic. Therefore the first analogy would be incorrect, it would be more like the current grandmaster playing against a former grandmaster from a decade ago. I do understand that Larva wasn't trying to offend anyone and I do appreciate his attempts to entertain the audience, however just like LX has stated himself, everything would be fine if he restricted his entertainment within the game, e.g. flying 20 command centres in the shape of a heart onto LX's base, but outside the game one should maintain a certain degree of etiquette.
On December 05 2017 15:32 youngjiddle wrote: I hope larva learns to be more mature outside of korea. If he wants to keep a job that is, hurting communities like the chinese scene is a very stupid thing to do.
Also, what's up with the dumbasses who think getting upvotes of reddit videos is more important than maintaining and growing the chinese scene.
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Since when ZOTAC showmatches are the Champions League of Brood War? Was the status of the tournament elevated suddenly due to Larva's foot making r/videos frontpage for 30 minutes?
On December 05 2017 15:59 CxWiLL wrote: In Larva's first statement on his stream, he mentioned that 'talked to the organizer before', 'everyone take photos afterwards and they are cool'. ZOTAC said ' Larva did not notify of the organizers of his actions, and his statement of "having the organizer's permission" is not TRUE.' and in more recent statement, he mentioned he 'went to see Legend after the game at night to apologize in person but he refused to see me and wrote that post on his SNS afterwards', so obviously Legend is not cool about it from the very beginning. I don't want to call out Larva as a liar on his part but there is some contradictions between his statements.
I am actually surprise by the bias of the western community on this incident. Just imagine if Draco was the one on the GF.It is certainly not ‘larva did noting wrong’. BMs are acceptable in game, offrace is fine, drone-dancing is fine and nuke is fine. But in person, is just too much.
Hilarious you guys keep saying imagine if it was Draco. There would never have been drama if it was Draco. It's a showmatch, not OSL. Every other player was there to have fun.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote:
On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
This was definitely not what he expect.
I'm imagining it... and I still don't care.
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you".
On December 05 2017 15:59 CxWiLL wrote: In Larva's first statement on his stream, he mentioned that 'talked to the organizer before', 'everyone take photos afterwards and they are cool'. ZOTAC said ' Larva did not notify of the organizers of his actions, and his statement of "having the organizer's permission" is not TRUE.' and in more recent statement, he mentioned he 'went to see Legend after the game at night to apologize in person but he refused to see me and wrote that post on his SNS afterwards', so obviously Legend is not cool about it from the very beginning. I don't want to call out Larva as a liar on his part but there is some contradictions between his statements.
I am actually surprise by the bias of the western community on this incident. Just imagine if Draco was the one on the GF.It is certainly not ‘larva did noting wrong’. BMs are acceptable in game, offrace is fine, drone-dancing is fine and nuke is fine. But in person, is just too much.
Hilarious you guys keep saying imagine if it was Draco. There would never have been drama if it was Draco. It's a showmatch, not OSL. Every other player was there to have fun.
goofing around on mutual agreement is sure analogous to what happened %facepalm%. If you didn't know Draco sometimes gets VERY pissed when games don't go his way
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote: [quote] I'm imagining it... and I still don't care.
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you".
You just agreed with him and then contradicted your own first sentence.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities.
Really? I think it's far more irrational to make a big deal about it, take emotions out of it and tell me how exactly anyone was harmed by what Larva did?
It was clearly a relaxed atmopshere, not some super serious competition. If you think that someone playing a video game with with their foot for a short time is some huge moral issue, go watch some comedians and grow a sense of humour.
TBH I didn't think much of Larva's behaviour, what he did was within my expectations, I personally just laughed off it, but I can totally understand why many couldn't stand it. Rationally speaking, playing with your feet against a retired veteran shows nothing but your immaturity and disrespect towards your opponent, even if you didn't mean it. Watch Jet Li's movie "Fearless" and see how the Japanese Samurai behaved when he fought and won against a handicapped Li at the end of the movie, that is true respect against a weaker opponent.
The problem was that LX did not expect this behaviour, he came prepared as if it was a serious match, if Larva had communicated with LX beforehand everything would be fine, but he didn't. Disrespect is disrespect, the particular circumstances or context does not invalidate the nature of the behaviour or attitude itself. If you don't think disrespect is a moral issue, I suggest you read this page: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/#SomImpIss , specifically, in part 2.1 the author attempts to answer the question "What is it about persons that makes them matter morally and makes them worthy of respect?"
I've seen Fearless, it was a great movie, but this was not a battle to the death between warriors, but a showmatch streamed for viewer entertainment, so forgive me for considering that to be a pretty inept comparison. Just because you say, "rationally speaking" at the start of your point, does not make your point rational, you seem to be suggesting that it is immature and disrespectful because he is a retired veteren, if it were a serious competition I would probably agree with you, but because it was a showmatch, I believe it is you that is being overly emotional and irrational. We can have differing opinions and that is fine, but I would caution against get blinded by your opinion into thinking you have some sort of moral high ground and any who disagree with you are just irrational or immature.
The circumstances do matter, because there are different expectations depending on the circumstances, I expect a showmatch to be entertaining. If Legion expected a super serious match then it is understandable that he would feel disprespected, but in my opinion, that is his mistake not Larva's.
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did any grandmaster masturbate or dance naked when he plays his fans, despite that he could do that and win, and it is more "entertaining"?
Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
On December 05 2017 10:40 Endymion wrote: [quote] this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
[quote]
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you".
You just agreed with him and then contradicted your own first sentence.
no I didn't agree with him. I replied with his own words so he had a chance to see how meaningless they are. Then explained why they are meaningless and what defines retarded behavior.
On December 05 2017 15:59 CxWiLL wrote: In Larva's first statement on his stream, he mentioned that 'talked to the organizer before', 'everyone take photos afterwards and they are cool'. ZOTAC said ' Larva did not notify of the organizers of his actions, and his statement of "having the organizer's permission" is not TRUE.' and in more recent statement, he mentioned he 'went to see Legend after the game at night to apologize in person but he refused to see me and wrote that post on his SNS afterwards', so obviously Legend is not cool about it from the very beginning. I don't want to call out Larva as a liar on his part but there is some contradictions between his statements.
I am actually surprise by the bias of the western community on this incident. Just imagine if Draco was the one on the GF.It is certainly not ‘larva did noting wrong’. BMs are acceptable in game, offrace is fine, drone-dancing is fine and nuke is fine. But in person, is just too much.
Hilarious you guys keep saying imagine if it was Draco. There would never have been drama if it was Draco. It's a showmatch, not OSL. Every other player was there to have fun.
Yes, there would never be a drama if it was Draco, cause Larva won't even do this shit because he respect Draco and the scene behind him Have fun? The problem is humiliation is not funny at all. I mean even it is your dearest friend, you cannot do things like 'beat him with feet on a public match' and getaway with 'just for fun'.
I am fed up with the "showmatch" bullshit. To me, every match is a showmatch, including every OSL, MSL match. In this shows, as a progamer, you show your skills to win the game, to show you respect your opponent, to show the audience this is such an exciting and fun game, NOT how you can humiliate your opponent whenever you have the chance.
On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this.
this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote: [quote] I'm imagining it... and I still don't care.
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you".
you literally lack any self awareness. Look at your words then refer them back to yourself.
On December 05 2017 10:53 FlaShFTW wrote: [quote] 1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you".
You just agreed with him and then contradicted your own first sentence.
no I didn't agree with him. I replied with his own words so he had a chance to see how meaningless they are. Then explained why they are meaningless and what defines retarded behavior.
You said he doesn't get to decide what others think(literally his point), which you then proceeded to do, LOL.
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
If it doesn't make a difference, and there's no point, then how is it humiliating him?
Did I miss something, and did he simultaneously shit talk and say how great he was for being able to win with his foot? Do you think the viewers think any less of Legion because Larva used his foot after the game was effectively won?
Wow, thats an overeaction by Zotac if i've ever seen one.
I can understand their decision from a "sc:r most be a legitimate competitive sport" view. But its a shame, that argueably the biggest entertainer at the event, is to be blacklistet. He won 3-0 anyway.
Im not aware if you were able to bet on the game on various betting sites, but since it was still a 3-0 victory i simply cant see why discipline should be handed out from Zotac.. Hopefully this will change once the news-relevancy dies down. #FreeLarvae
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
If it doesn't make a difference, and there's no point, then how is it humiliating him?
Did I miss something, and did he simultaneously shit talk and say how great he was for being able to win with his foot? Do you think the viewers think any less of Legion because Larva used his foot after the game was effectively won?
So in the end it was not humiliating?
This is a community where laughing in the in-game chat or offensive gg are bound to offend someone while putting a foot on keyboard on broadcast while being ahead is a good-spirited comedy catering to American viewers and drawing potential sponsors
On December 05 2017 16:34 Chr15t wrote: Wow, thats an overeaction by Zotac if i've ever seen one.
I can understand their decision from a "sc:r most be a legitimate competitive sport" view. But its a shame, that argueably the biggest entertainer at the event, is to be blacklistet. He won 3-0 anyway.
Im not aware if you were able to bet on the game on various betting sites, but since it was still a 3-0 victory i simply cant see why discipline should be handed out from Zotac.. Hopefully this will change once the news-relevancy dies down. #FreeLarvae
Yeah, right now it seems like it's mostly a bunch of Chinese pride fueling the outrage. And Zotac China had to do damage control quickly. Zotac NA/KR are working with Larva to resolve the issue (according to him on his recap stream).
On December 05 2017 10:40 Endymion wrote: [quote] this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
[quote]
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play.
1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you".
you literally lack any self awareness. Look at your words then refer them back to yourself.
On December 05 2017 10:58 Endymion wrote: [quote] it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you".
You just agreed with him and then contradicted your own first sentence.
no I didn't agree with him. I replied with his own words so he had a chance to see how meaningless they are. Then explained why they are meaningless and what defines retarded behavior.
You said he doesn't get to decide what others think(literally his point), which you then proceeded to do, LOL.
ever heard of satire? Or irony? He says "you don't get to decide blabla" then next sentence he says "the entire community blabla". So he gets to decide what an entire community approves? That's exactly what I mocked replying to him in his own words.
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
If it doesn't make a difference, and there's no point, then how is it humiliating him?
Did I miss something, and did he simultaneously shit talk and say how great he was for being able to win with his foot? Do you think the viewers think any less of Legion because Larva used his foot after the game was effectively won?
Since many people think it is inappropriate, and LX felt insulted, if you still pretend it is totally OK to EVERYONE, then there is nothing that needs to argue about. Did any grandmaster masturbate or dance naked when he plays his fans, despite that he could do that and win and it is more "entertaining"? Just to what extent you would think it is appropriate and entertaining? eat shit? fuck his uncle? Sure, that wouldn't directly affect the opponent, and I am sure someone would find it "entertaining", not me, and not many others.
On December 05 2017 10:53 FlaShFTW wrote: [quote] 1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you".
You just agreed with him and then contradicted your own first sentence.
no I didn't agree with him. I replied with his own words so he had a chance to see how meaningless they are. Then explained why they are meaningless and what defines retarded behavior.
You are using "social norm" and then defining what that is as if it's objective. Don't you understand how subjective that is? Sorry that your player got humiliated.
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
If it doesn't make a difference, and there's no point, then how is it humiliating him?
Did I miss something, and did he simultaneously shit talk and say how great he was for being able to win with his foot? Do you think the viewers think any less of Legion because Larva used his foot after the game was effectively won?
Since many people think it is inappropriate, and LX felt insulted, if you still pretend it is totally OK to EVERYONE, then there is nothing that needs to argue about. Did any grandmaster masturbate or dance naked when he plays his fans, despite that he could do that and win and it is more "entertaining"? Just to what extent you would think it is appropriate and entertaining? eat shit? fuck his uncle? I am sure someone would find it "entertaining", not me, and not many others.
I'm pretty sure you're going a bit too far but it still feels right by Myrddraal's point of view, I mean would it make a difference if he spat on him across the desk? He won 3:0 anyway
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
If it doesn't make a difference, and there's no point, then how is it humiliating him?
Did I miss something, and did he simultaneously shit talk and say how great he was for being able to win with his foot? Do you think the viewers think any less of Legion because Larva used his foot after the game was effectively won?
Since many people think it is inappropriate, and LX felt insulted, if you still pretend it is totally OK to EVERYONE, then there is nothing that needs to argue about. Did any grandmaster masturbate or dance naked when he plays his fans, despite that he could do that and win and it is more "entertaining"? Just to what extent you would think it is appropriate and entertaining? eat shit? fuck his uncle? I am sure someone would find it "entertaining", not me, and not many others.
Seems like maybe you should take some time to actually think things through before posting them. Your logic is much more flawed than the logic you are criticizing.
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
If it doesn't make a difference, and there's no point, then how is it humiliating him?
Did I miss something, and did he simultaneously shit talk and say how great he was for being able to win with his foot? Do you think the viewers think any less of Legion because Larva used his foot after the game was effectively won?
Since many people think it is inappropriate, and LX felt insulted, if you still pretend it is totally OK to EVERYONE, then there is nothing that needs to argue about. Did any grandmaster masturbate or dance naked when he plays his fans, despite that he could do that and win and it is more "entertaining"? Just to what extent you would think it is appropriate and entertaining? eat shit? fuck his uncle? I am sure someone would find it "entertaining", not me, and not many others.
I'm pretty sure you're going a bit too far, but it still feels right by Myrddraal's point of view, I mean would it make a difference if he spat on him across the desk? He won 3:0 anyway
I'm pretty sure Larva was going a bit too far. But who draws the line? Larva? You? No, the line draws where people are divided to two groups, neither of which is too small to neglect. Any argument that it is TOTALLY fine is just lying to yourself.
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
If it doesn't make a difference, and there's no point, then how is it humiliating him?
Did I miss something, and did he simultaneously shit talk and say how great he was for being able to win with his foot? Do you think the viewers think any less of Legion because Larva used his foot after the game was effectively won?
Since many people think it is inappropriate, and LX felt insulted, if you still pretend it is totally OK to EVERYONE, then there is nothing that needs to argue about. Did any grandmaster masturbate or dance naked when he plays his fans, despite that he could do that and win and it is more "entertaining"? Just to what extent you would think it is appropriate and entertaining? eat shit? fuck his uncle? I am sure someone would find it "entertaining", not me, and not many others.
Seems like maybe you should take some time to actually think things through before posting them. Your logic is much more flawed than the logic you are criticizing.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities.
Really? I think it's far more irrational to make a big deal about it, take emotions out of it and tell me how exactly anyone was harmed by what Larva did?
It was clearly a relaxed atmopshere, not some super serious competition. If you think that someone playing a video game with with their foot for a short time is some huge moral issue, go watch some comedians and grow a sense of humour.
TBH I didn't think much of Larva's behaviour, what he did was within my expectations, I personally just laughed off it, but I can totally understand why many couldn't stand it. Rationally speaking, playing with your feet against a retired veteran shows nothing but your immaturity and disrespect towards your opponent, even if you didn't mean it. Watch Jet Li's movie "Fearless" and see how the Japanese Samurai behaved when he fought and won against a handicapped Li at the end of the movie, that is true respect against a weaker opponent.
The problem was that LX did not expect this behaviour, he came prepared as if it was a serious match, if Larva had communicated with LX beforehand everything would be fine, but he didn't. Disrespect is disrespect, the particular circumstances or context does not invalidate the nature of the behaviour or attitude itself. If you don't think disrespect is a moral issue, I suggest you read this page: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/#SomImpIss , specifically, in part 2.1 the author attempts to answer the question "What is it about persons that makes them matter morally and makes them worthy of respect?"
I've seen Fearless, it was a great movie, but this was not a battle to the death between warriors, but a showmatch streamed for viewer entertainment, so forgive me for considering that to be a pretty inept comparison. Just because you say, "rationally speaking" at the start of your point, does not make your point rational, you seem to be suggesting that it is immature and disrespectful because he is a retired veteren, if it were a serious competition I would probably agree with you, but because it was a showmatch, I believe it is you that is being overly emotional and irrational. We can have differing opinions and that is fine, but I would caution against get blinded by your opinion into thinking you have some sort of moral high ground and any who disagree with you are just irrational or immature.
The circumstances do matter, because there are different expectations depending on the circumstances, I expect a showmatch to be entertaining. If Legion expected a super serious match then it is understandable that he would feel disprespected, but in my opinion, that is his mistake not Larva's.
Being disrespectful in a showmatch is still being disrespectful, I don't see how that could be different, if anything it could only be worse as a worldwide audience is watching. A simple analogy would be stealing from your friend is no different from stealing from your neighbor, the president, or a criminal, regardless of who it is you stole from, you have commited an act of theft. You seem to be focused on deconstructing semantic issues of my post instead of aiming at my arguments, this is an unconvincing way to reason. Moreover, you assumed that I was being overly emotional and irrational, however beginning your argument with "I believe it is you that is ..." is once again a very unconvincing way to reason. Lastly, please let me point out the error in your final accusation, namely that I am "blinded by my opinion that I have some sort of moral high ground". The concept of a "moral high ground" is in itself an inconsistent definition as morality is mutual, it is an extension of basic human rights of personhood and the free will of the rational agent, therefore by definition no one can be "morally superior" as it is a mutually equal responsibility between any rational moral agent. One can, of course, choose not to behave in accordance with moral laws, in which case, one has violated the law of morality and thus, in a just society, must face the corresponding repercussions, but nowhere do I see how a person is inherently, or deductively "morally superior" to another.
However, I would like to express my gratitude for your civil behaviour, as to my experience such civil discussions are quite rare nowadays on the internet...
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
If it doesn't make a difference, and there's no point, then how is it humiliating him?
Did I miss something, and did he simultaneously shit talk and say how great he was for being able to win with his foot? Do you think the viewers think any less of Legion because Larva used his foot after the game was effectively won?
Since many people think it is inappropriate, and LX felt insulted, if you still pretend it is totally OK to EVERYONE, then there is nothing that needs to argue about. Did any grandmaster masturbate or dance naked when he plays his fans, despite that he could do that and win and it is more "entertaining"? Just to what extent you would think it is appropriate and entertaining? eat shit? fuck his uncle? I am sure someone would find it "entertaining", not me, and not many others.
Seems like maybe you should take some time to actually think things through before posting them. Your logic is much more flawed than the logic you are criticizing.
You have to point our what logic of mine is flawed to make it just a little bit convincing.
Essentially you are intentionally/unintentionally misunderstanding peoples points and making your own points to combat those points made up by yourself. Thus, the things you are saying have no real bearing on what the people you are arguing with are actually saying. You take things to extremes to try and make your points, but the extremes you use are not realistic and therefore don't make the point you're trying to.
You're doing something like this: Person 1 makes claim Y. Person 2 restates person 1’s claim (in a distorted way). Person 2 attacks the distorted version of the claim. Therefore, claim Y is false.
Since you are obviously just someone who made an account to defend your wounded ego and cause drama here I'm not going to spend too much time on you. But those are things to think about when posting.
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
If it doesn't make a difference, and there's no point, then how is it humiliating him?
Did I miss something, and did he simultaneously shit talk and say how great he was for being able to win with his foot? Do you think the viewers think any less of Legion because Larva used his foot after the game was effectively won?
Since many people think it is inappropriate, and LX felt insulted, if you still pretend it is totally OK to EVERYONE, then there is nothing that needs to argue about. Did any grandmaster masturbate or dance naked when he plays his fans, despite that he could do that and win and it is more "entertaining"? Just to what extent you would think it is appropriate and entertaining? eat shit? fuck his uncle? I am sure someone would find it "entertaining", not me, and not many others.
Seems like maybe you should take some time to actually think things through before posting them. Your logic is much more flawed than the logic you are criticizing.
You have to point our what logic of mine is flawed to make it just a little bit convincing.
Essentially you are intentionally/unintentionally misunderstanding peoples points and making your own points to combat those points made up by yourself. Thus, the things you are saying have no real bearing on what the people you are arguing with are actually saying. You take things to extremes to try and make your points, but the extremes you use are not realistic and therefore don't make the point you're trying to.
Since you are obviously just someone who made an account to defend your wounded ego and cause drama here I'm not going to spend too much time on you. But those are things to think about when posting.
This post of you is totally pointless. Please stop wasting other people's time.
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
If it doesn't make a difference, and there's no point, then how is it humiliating him?
Did I miss something, and did he simultaneously shit talk and say how great he was for being able to win with his foot? Do you think the viewers think any less of Legion because Larva used his foot after the game was effectively won?
Since many people think it is inappropriate, and LX felt insulted, if you still pretend it is totally OK to EVERYONE, then there is nothing that needs to argue about. Did any grandmaster masturbate or dance naked when he plays his fans, despite that he could do that and win and it is more "entertaining"? Just to what extent you would think it is appropriate and entertaining? eat shit? fuck his uncle? I am sure someone would find it "entertaining", not me, and not many others.
Seems like maybe you should take some time to actually think things through before posting them. Your logic is much more flawed than the logic you are criticizing.
You have to point our what logic of mine is flawed to make it just a little bit convincing.
Essentially you are intentionally/unintentionally misunderstanding peoples points and making your own points to combat those points made up by yourself. Thus, the things you are saying have no real bearing on what the people you are arguing with are actually saying. You take things to extremes to try and make your points, but the extremes you use are not realistic and therefore don't make the point you're trying to.
You're doing something like this: Person 1 makes claim Y. Person 2 restates person 1’s claim (in a distorted way). Person 2 attacks the distorted version of the claim. Therefore, claim Y is false.
Since you are obviously just someone who made an account to defend your wounded ego and cause drama here I'm not going to spend too much time on you. But those are things to think about when posting.
You didn't seems to understand at all what I am saying. Good luck with your further reading.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses.
what's false about it? The relations between the countries are not fantastic, Larva's well aware of that, Legend's well aware of that. It is the context you can't ignore. Whatever the controversy was gonna happen, it was bound to be viewed through that prism.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The disproportionate reaction to this otherwise unimportant event was largely thanks to the nationalistic elements that some people connected to it. It's quite frankly hilarious to see attempts to deny any correlation, or people pretending that they have always been concerned over the lack of respect found in the Brood War scene, which is why they decided to chime their thoughts on the matter only when it was their player of choosing that got disrespected.
Quite obviously some people are using this event merely as a vessel of venting their pent up emotions on matters that has very little to do with the code of ethics found within the Brood War scene. That's bullshit if you ask me, and why should I encourage those who are flooding the Brood War forum for the sole purposes of beating that nationalistic drum?
u think korean fans would be okay if idra played with his foot vs boxer or yellow? plz
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
If it doesn't make a difference, and there's no point, then how is it humiliating him?
Did I miss something, and did he simultaneously shit talk and say how great he was for being able to win with his foot? Do you think the viewers think any less of Legion because Larva used his foot after the game was effectively won?
Since many people think it is inappropriate, and LX felt insulted, if you still pretend it is totally OK to EVERYONE, then there is nothing that needs to argue about. Did any grandmaster masturbate or dance naked when he plays his fans, despite that he could do that and win and it is more "entertaining"? Just to what extent you would think it is appropriate and entertaining? eat shit? fuck his uncle? Sure, that wouldn't directly affect the opponent, and I am sure someone would find it "entertaining", not me, and not many others.
Well, I'm not pretending everyone would find it okay, but I generally judge things by what I would find to be acceptable or insulting if they were done to me. So, while I can't speak from the experience of being a former veteren of anything, personally, if someone used their foot to play against me, or did any of the other things, I wouldn't feel humiliated or disrespected, if anything I would be impressed that they are that much better than me.
But hey I am generally thick skinned, have a reasonable sense of humour and try to keep my ego in check. I understand not everyone is the same, and Legion could take it differently, but by no means do I agree that it should be seen as a big deal and worthy of being banned. Also I'm pretty sure more people think it's funny than inappropriate (except in China), so if you're part of the latter then maybe take a look in the mirror and try to work out why you find it so offensive.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses.
what's false about it? The relations between the countries are not fantastic, Larva's well aware of that, Legend's well aware of that. It is the context you can't ignore. Whatever the controversy was gonna happen, it was bound to be viewed through that prism.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The disproportionate reaction to this otherwise unimportant event was largely thanks to the nationalistic elements that some people connected to it. It's quite frankly hilarious to see attempts to deny any correlation, or people pretending that they have always been concerned over the lack of respect found in the Brood War scene, which is why they decided to chime their thoughts on the matter only when it was their player of choosing that got disrespected.
Quite obviously some people are using this event merely as a vessel of venting their pent up emotions on matters that has very little to do with the code of ethics found within the Brood War scene. That's bullshit if you ask me, and why should I encourage those who are flooding the Brood War forum for the sole purposes of beating that nationalistic drum?
u think korean fans would be okay if idra played with his foot vs boxer or yellow? plz
I believe only Koreans have right to be offended, so no
Thankfully those who do offensive stuff do it when they can back it up, so we don't have to see them being salty af
On December 05 2017 10:53 FlaShFTW wrote: [quote] 1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game.
I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll.
it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time
Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you".
you literally lack any self awareness. Look at your words then refer them back to yourself.
On December 05 2017 11:06 FlaShFTW wrote: [quote] Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash.
Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash?
A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country.
tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments.
"hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man.
retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you".
You just agreed with him and then contradicted your own first sentence.
no I didn't agree with him. I replied with his own words so he had a chance to see how meaningless they are. Then explained why they are meaningless and what defines retarded behavior.
You said he doesn't get to decide what others think(literally his point), which you then proceeded to do, LOL.
ever heard of satire? Or irony? He says "you don't get to decide blabla" then next sentence he says "the entire community blabla". So he gets to decide what an entire community approves? That's exactly what I mocked replying to him in his own words.
As a side note, here's an explanation to the "metaphor" part of Legend's statement: "过去送个外卖"literally means "going there on a delivery run"; metaphorically, this is something like "going to a party as the pizza delivery guy", which means you go there, do your job and take the money, strictly business. Then the later part "娱乐下"steer the meaning a little bit, which make it look like "mixing the business with a little bit of fun". So I guess this shows the mentality of Legend going to the showmatch. He expects a little bit of fun, but not as much as he was served. (pun intended)
I'm Chinese and I'm not offended by Larva's action. It's still a pretty demeaning thing to do on his part; it's his reputation on the line after all, not Legend's.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses.
what's false about it? The relations between the countries are not fantastic, Larva's well aware of that, Legend's well aware of that. It is the context you can't ignore. Whatever the controversy was gonna happen, it was bound to be viewed through that prism.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The disproportionate reaction to this otherwise unimportant event was largely thanks to the nationalistic elements that some people connected to it. It's quite frankly hilarious to see attempts to deny any correlation, or people pretending that they have always been concerned over the lack of respect found in the Brood War scene, which is why they decided to chime their thoughts on the matter only when it was their player of choosing that got disrespected.
Quite obviously some people are using this event merely as a vessel of venting their pent up emotions on matters that has very little to do with the code of ethics found within the Brood War scene. That's bullshit if you ask me, and why should I encourage those who are flooding the Brood War forum for the sole purposes of beating that nationalistic drum?
u think korean fans would be okay if idra played with his foot vs boxer or yellow? plz
Considering that would never be a possibility, let's look into some other competitive realms.
This is the reaction from Jamsil Stadium, with the Korean national team being completely outclassed by the American team who were quite clearly showboating. They can handle a spectacle at the cost of their home team.
If Idra actually became good enough to defeat BoxeR while showboating with his feet, then I would guess that it would create memes about BoxeR being washed up garbage, just like memes were created about sAviOr when he lost to PJ who I believe went for carriers and dark archons for the deciding game, for instance. PJ was dubbed "Sha-bonjwa" by the Korean internet community, and sAviOr was bashed to the ground for being pathetic enough to lose to a B teamer protoss who went for carriers.
Once again this is pure conjecture, but I would assume that Korean communities would be more likely to ridicule their own players to oblivion should they embarrass themselves in such a manner, rather than tunnel visioning on any offense caused by the victor. That's how I personally would assume things would go down, but perhaps you have years of first hand experience as a member of the Korean internet community, and have expert opinions that far outstrip my own in terms of accuracy and insight.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities.
Really? I think it's far more irrational to make a big deal about it, take emotions out of it and tell me how exactly anyone was harmed by what Larva did?
It was clearly a relaxed atmopshere, not some super serious competition. If you think that someone playing a video game with with their foot for a short time is some huge moral issue, go watch some comedians and grow a sense of humour.
TBH I didn't think much of Larva's behaviour, what he did was within my expectations, I personally just laughed off it, but I can totally understand why many couldn't stand it. Rationally speaking, playing with your feet against a retired veteran shows nothing but your immaturity and disrespect towards your opponent, even if you didn't mean it. Watch Jet Li's movie "Fearless" and see how the Japanese Samurai behaved when he fought and won against a handicapped Li at the end of the movie, that is true respect against a weaker opponent.
The problem was that LX did not expect this behaviour, he came prepared as if it was a serious match, if Larva had communicated with LX beforehand everything would be fine, but he didn't. Disrespect is disrespect, the particular circumstances or context does not invalidate the nature of the behaviour or attitude itself. If you don't think disrespect is a moral issue, I suggest you read this page: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/#SomImpIss , specifically, in part 2.1 the author attempts to answer the question "What is it about persons that makes them matter morally and makes them worthy of respect?"
I've seen Fearless, it was a great movie, but this was not a battle to the death between warriors, but a showmatch streamed for viewer entertainment, so forgive me for considering that to be a pretty inept comparison. Just because you say, "rationally speaking" at the start of your point, does not make your point rational, you seem to be suggesting that it is immature and disrespectful because he is a retired veteren, if it were a serious competition I would probably agree with you, but because it was a showmatch, I believe it is you that is being overly emotional and irrational. We can have differing opinions and that is fine, but I would caution against get blinded by your opinion into thinking you have some sort of moral high ground and any who disagree with you are just irrational or immature.
The circumstances do matter, because there are different expectations depending on the circumstances, I expect a showmatch to be entertaining. If Legion expected a super serious match then it is understandable that he would feel disprespected, but in my opinion, that is his mistake not Larva's.
Being disrespectful in a showmatch is still being disrespectful, I don't see how that could be different, if anything it could only be worse as a worldwide audience is watching. A simple analogy would be stealing from your friend is no different from stealing from your neighbor, the president, or a criminal, regardless of who it is you stole from, you have commited an act of theft. You seem to be focused on deconstructing semantic issues of my post instead of aiming at my arguments, this is an unconvincing way to reason. Moreover, you assumed that I was being overly emotional and irrational, however beginning your argument with "I believe it is you that is ..." is once again a very unconvincing way to reason. Lastly, please let me point out the error in your final accusation, namely that I am "blinded by my opinion that I have some sort of moral high ground". The concept of a "moral high ground" is in itself an inconsistent definition as morality is mutual, it is an extension of basic human rights of personhood and the free will of the rational agent, therefore by definition no one can be "morally superior" as it is a mutually equal responsibility between any rational moral agent. One can, of course, choose not to behave in accordance with moral laws, in which case, one has violated the law of morality and thus, in a just society, must face the corresponding repercussions, but nowhere do I see how a person is inherently, or deductively "morally superior" to another.
However, I would like to express my gratitude for your civil behaviour, as to my experience such civil discussions are quite rare nowadays on the internet...
No my friend, it is you that is missing my argument, my argument is that it was not disrespectful or at least not intending to be disrespectful. I don't need to aim at your arguments because I deny the entire premise. So from my perspective your analogy doesn't apply, it would be more accurate to say that Legion thought Larva stole from him, but he didn't, he felt wronged but was not actually wronged. Larva may have bruised his ego, but I think a weak ego is a liability, so if he managed to get over it he will be better off.
I started with "I believe", because I don't claim to know you are being irrational, but that is my perspective. I figured that would make it more obvious to you that I was stating an opinion I had thought about, rather than just reacting in opposition, it would be dishonest of me to claim to know how you are feeling.
The accusation was emant to be more of an attempt to let you know how you come across, rather than a literal accusation. It seemed like you were saying that anyone who came to the opposite conclusion must be acting irrationally, therefore your position was superior simply by virtue of being reached rationally. I just wanted to remind you, that one can think rationally about this situation and come to the opposite conclusion.
No worries, I know how you feel haha. I'm a bit of a chameleon so it helps that your initial post was civil. Anyway I need to go sort out dinner and play table tennis, gl hf.
Edit: I meant to say in the first paragraph, it's not disrespectful given the circumstances, messing around in a serious match is making a mockery of the competition, messing around in a showmatch is in accordance of what I would expect from a showmatch.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses.
what's false about it? The relations between the countries are not fantastic, Larva's well aware of that, Legend's well aware of that. It is the context you can't ignore. Whatever the controversy was gonna happen, it was bound to be viewed through that prism.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The disproportionate reaction to this otherwise unimportant event was largely thanks to the nationalistic elements that some people connected to it. It's quite frankly hilarious to see attempts to deny any correlation, or people pretending that they have always been concerned over the lack of respect found in the Brood War scene, which is why they decided to chime their thoughts on the matter only when it was their player of choosing that got disrespected.
Quite obviously some people are using this event merely as a vessel of venting their pent up emotions on matters that has very little to do with the code of ethics found within the Brood War scene. That's bullshit if you ask me, and why should I encourage those who are flooding the Brood War forum for the sole purposes of beating that nationalistic drum?
u think korean fans would be okay if idra played with his foot vs boxer or yellow? plz
Considering that would never be a possibility, let's look into some other competitive realms.
This is the reaction from Jamsil Stadium, with the Korean national team being completely outclassed by the American team who were quite clearly showboating. They can handle a spectacle at the cost of their home team.
If Idra actually became good enough to defeat BoxeR while showboating with his feet, then I would guess that it would create memes about BoxeR being washed up garbage, just like memes were created about sAviOr when he lost to PJ who I believe went for carriers and dark archons for the deciding game, for instance. PJ was dubbed "Sha-bonjwa" by the Korean internet community, and sAviOr was bashed to the ground for being pathetic enough to lose to a B teamer protoss who went for carriers.
Once again this is pure conjecture, but I would assume that Korean communities would be more likely to ridicule their own players to oblivion should they embarrass themselves in such a manner, rather than tunnel visioning on any offense caused by the victor. That's how I personally would assume things would go down, but perhaps you have years of first hand experience as a member of the Korean internet community, and have expert opinions that far outstrip my own in terms of accuracy and insight.
I think we can all agree that there is some showboating, foreigners in general are not new to that, this is not the first time. Also we are talking about LX who went d-web corsair vs Flash in WCG, vs Tossgirl in a showmatch. It's about where we draw the line between showboating and being disrespectful. That is debatable. You can say playing with feet is okay, then how about other stuff like showing his cock/pouring soy sauce etc... LX might be overreacting a little bit with his tweet, but it's quite clear that he finds the nukes/drone killing funny but thinks some of Larva's other acts have gone too far.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities.
Really? I think it's far more irrational to make a big deal about it, take emotions out of it and tell me how exactly anyone was harmed by what Larva did?
It was clearly a relaxed atmopshere, not some super serious competition. If you think that someone playing a video game with with their foot for a short time is some huge moral issue, go watch some comedians and grow a sense of humour.
TBH I didn't think much of Larva's behaviour, what he did was within my expectations, I personally just laughed off it, but I can totally understand why many couldn't stand it. Rationally speaking, playing with your feet against a retired veteran shows nothing but your immaturity and disrespect towards your opponent, even if you didn't mean it. Watch Jet Li's movie "Fearless" and see how the Japanese Samurai behaved when he fought and won against a handicapped Li at the end of the movie, that is true respect against a weaker opponent.
The problem was that LX did not expect this behaviour, he came prepared as if it was a serious match, if Larva had communicated with LX beforehand everything would be fine, but he didn't. Disrespect is disrespect, the particular circumstances or context does not invalidate the nature of the behaviour or attitude itself. If you don't think disrespect is a moral issue, I suggest you read this page: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/#SomImpIss , specifically, in part 2.1 the author attempts to answer the question "What is it about persons that makes them matter morally and makes them worthy of respect?"
I've seen Fearless, it was a great movie, but this was not a battle to the death between warriors, but a showmatch streamed for viewer entertainment, so forgive me for considering that to be a pretty inept comparison. Just because you say, "rationally speaking" at the start of your point, does not make your point rational, you seem to be suggesting that it is immature and disrespectful because he is a retired veteren, if it were a serious competition I would probably agree with you, but because it was a showmatch, I believe it is you that is being overly emotional and irrational. We can have differing opinions and that is fine, but I would caution against get blinded by your opinion into thinking you have some sort of moral high ground and any who disagree with you are just irrational or immature.
The circumstances do matter, because there are different expectations depending on the circumstances, I expect a showmatch to be entertaining. If Legion expected a super serious match then it is understandable that he would feel disprespected, but in my opinion, that is his mistake not Larva's.
Being disrespectful in a showmatch is still being disrespectful, I don't see how that could be different, if anything it could only be worse as a worldwide audience is watching. A simple analogy would be stealing from your friend is no different from stealing from your neighbor, the president, or a criminal, regardless of who it is you stole from, you have commited an act of theft. You seem to be focused on deconstructing semantic issues of my post instead of aiming at my arguments, this is an unconvincing way to reason. Moreover, you assumed that I was being overly emotional and irrational, however beginning your argument with "I believe it is you that is ..." is once again a very unconvincing way to reason. Lastly, please let me point out the error in your final accusation, namely that I am "blinded by my opinion that I have some sort of moral high ground". The concept of a "moral high ground" is in itself an inconsistent definition as morality is mutual, it is an extension of basic human rights of personhood and the free will of the rational agent, therefore by definition no one can be "morally superior" as it is a mutually equal responsibility between any rational moral agent. One can, of course, choose not to behave in accordance with moral laws, in which case, one has violated the law of morality and thus, in a just society, must face the corresponding repercussions, but nowhere do I see how a person is inherently, or deductively "morally superior" to another.
However, I would like to express my gratitude for your civil behaviour, as to my experience such civil discussions are quite rare nowadays on the internet...
No my friend, it is you that is missing my argument, my argument is that it was not disrespectful or at least not intending to be disrespectful. I don't need to aim at your arguments because I deny the entire premise. So from my perspective your analogy doesn't apply, it would be more accurate to say that Legion thought Larva stole from him, but he didn't, he felt wronged but was not actually wronged. Larva may have bruised his ego, but I think a weak ego is a liability, so if he managed to get over it he will be better off.
I started with "I believe", because I don't claim to know you are being irrational, but that is my perspective. I figured that would make it more obvious to you that I was stating an opinion I had thought about, rather than just reacting in opposition, it would be dishonest of me to claim to know how you are feeling.
The accusation was emant to be more of an attempt to let you know how you come across, rather than a literal accusation. It seemed like you were saying that anyone who came to the opposite conclusion must be acting irrationally, therefore your position was superior simply by virtue of being reached rationally. I just wanted to remind you, that one can think rationally about this situation and come to the opposite conclusion.
No worries, I know how you feel haha. I'm a bit of a chameleon so it helps that your initial post was civil. Anyway I need to go sort out dinner and play table tennis, gl hf.
Fair enough my friend, I guess it would make sense to say that LX thought Larva disrespected him, but disrespecting him wasn't a part of Larva's intention. The conclusion all depends on the premise in which you see this issue, and I agree that we will inevitably come to different conclusions if we start from different premises. But then, I think the behaviour of Larva was ambiguous at best, and it all falls onto his intention that he should've communicated across whether for us to see this incident as a shameful act of disrespect or a friendly form of entertainment, and the biggest problem I see is that putting one's feet on the table is an extremely disrespectful thing to do in Asian cultures, hence why some Koreans felt proud while most Chinese felt enraged. It would be great if both players could communicate and come to a common ground either before or after the game, unfortunately that wasn't the case, and hatred coming from both sides is only making it worse.
On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride".
Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!!
HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy.
youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china.
robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game.
I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar.
Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006.
I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses.
what's false about it? The relations between the countries are not fantastic, Larva's well aware of that, Legend's well aware of that. It is the context you can't ignore. Whatever the controversy was gonna happen, it was bound to be viewed through that prism.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The disproportionate reaction to this otherwise unimportant event was largely thanks to the nationalistic elements that some people connected to it. It's quite frankly hilarious to see attempts to deny any correlation, or people pretending that they have always been concerned over the lack of respect found in the Brood War scene, which is why they decided to chime their thoughts on the matter only when it was their player of choosing that got disrespected.
Quite obviously some people are using this event merely as a vessel of venting their pent up emotions on matters that has very little to do with the code of ethics found within the Brood War scene. That's bullshit if you ask me, and why should I encourage those who are flooding the Brood War forum for the sole purposes of beating that nationalistic drum?
u think korean fans would be okay if idra played with his foot vs boxer or yellow? plz
Considering that would never be a possibility, let's look into some other competitive realms.
This is the reaction from Jamsil Stadium, with the Korean national team being completely outclassed by the American team who were quite clearly showboating. They can handle a spectacle at the cost of their home team.
If Idra actually became good enough to defeat BoxeR while showboating with his feet, then I would guess that it would create memes about BoxeR being washed up garbage, just like memes were created about sAviOr when he lost to PJ who I believe went for carriers and dark archons for the deciding game, for instance. PJ was dubbed "Sha-bonjwa" by the Korean internet community, and sAviOr was bashed to the ground for being pathetic enough to lose to a B teamer protoss who went for carriers.
Once again this is pure conjecture, but I would assume that Korean communities would be more likely to ridicule their own players to oblivion should they embarrass themselves in such a manner, rather than tunnel visioning on any offense caused by the victor. That's how I personally would assume things would go down, but perhaps you have years of first hand experience as a member of the Korean internet community, and have expert opinions that far outstrip my own in terms of accuracy and insight.
I think we can all agree that there is some showboating, foreigners in general are not new to that, this is not the first time. Also we are talking about LX who went d-web corsair vs Flash in WCG, vs Tossgirl in a showmatch. It's about where we draw the line between showboating and being disrespectful. That is debatable. You can say playing with feet is okay, then how about other stuff like showing his cock/pouring soy sauce etc... LX might be overreacting a little bit with his tweet, but it's quite clear that he finds the nukes/drone killing funny but thinks some of Larva's other acts have gone too far.
Larva was disrespectful throughout his entire career. He first made a big impression to the Korean fans when he called out JangBi for being trash at the game, when he still had that prestige of being the reigning OGN StarLeague champion, and Larva was literally a nobody. Larva has made a name for himself with both in-game and out of game disrespects, one of the more recent examples of which was against Sea where he literally stood up and shadow boxed mid-game to flaunt his immense advantage in the game.
I have zero qualms about calling Larva out for what he is. I don't have a problem with those who are upset for Legend, and how he was humiliated on stage. What I do have problems with are people who feign concern for the moral code within the Brood War scene itself when it is quite clear that they could not have cared less about the Brood War scene before this event took place, and those who feel this is the perfect vessel to help them spew out their nationalistic garbage.
Youtube subscribers. Fans who watch broadcast. Thank you for supporting foreigners. I just tried to save this tournament and StarCraft. Performance is essential to attract attention I made a judgment. As a result, When I extracted the African TV data At 3 o'clock in Korean time. It's a very high figure that I would not have started at 5. Recorded. Finally, Jotec America I prepared so hard and took care of me a lot. I can not look good until the end I'm sorry and thank you. And I do not know if the players will see it, but there is only one place to leave a message. It's only a few days since the tournament. StarCraft has made many friends with just one game. first. I decided to match the dragon gamer. I could not make it because of the time. I'm sorry. Send me an email! I'll put it online! My student Hawk is the same age as me, the race is the same, and the beard is the same. Thank you for showing my enthusiasm for star and next time I will upgrade! Physical good Kawai Rise I think it will be top class if you add a little more !! Draco is really handsome and gentle manners. Thanks for showing me. Happy birthday again! Michael! I think it will be memorable for me to go to the Korean town in the morning. Congratulations on winning! ultra! Show the power of Czech pro gamers! Thank you for making me so good memories. Well it would be nice if we had a date together. Everyone is fine!
@Edit: the comment disappeared now, maybe it was a fake but it was pinned so I don't know what is going on :D
"My student Hawk is the same age as me, the race is the same, and the beard is the same. Thank you for showing my enthusiasm for star and next time I will upgrade!"
Larva (top4 korea) almost losing a bo3 match to me as a retired pro who has been playing starcraft again for only 3 months is basicly same level of an insult as beating someone with a foot. He just had to do the same to Lx.
I wonder why ASL hasn't banned me yet, I guess that's a matter of time.
The smell of korean fear is real... watch out because who knows what the future holds.
I just want to point out that controversy around larva's behaviour completely overshadowed THE ENTIRE EVENT. No one even talks about money, who won against whom, NOTHING but larva's nukes (WTF?!) and feet on the keyboard.
Offracing and nuking an opponent is PERFECTLY ok, shouldn't even be brought up. Not by Legend, that's for certain; if you end up getting nuked by an offracing opponent - well, you really should feel bad. It's again the football analogies - dominating players try for overhead kicks and other fancy stuff to score a goal.
Playing with hands crossed is certainly ok as well, being some sort of showmanship. I don't see how this qualifies as being bad mannered.
The feet thing is a bit overboard and I personally would be offended and would not cheer for a guy who does that kind of stuff in online events. Then again, as put out by many previous posters, larva does that kind of stuff. He's a clown and he literally lives on being obnoxious (yea, he's a top player now, but he got paid on stream for doing stupid shit for quite a while). There are other such players and I feel like it's slowly becoming a thing, since high-level players are freelance now, no KESPA, no big sponsorship, just the stream. Whatever gets the viewers/balloons/etc. Sea is that kind of streamer, not to mention Terror, and I am certain there are many others who make a living off being obnoxious. And ZOTAC invite him? And they don't prevent his antics beforehand, or at first instance? Well, they did they homework (or they didn't) and they have to live with the consequences now. And it's not an easy decision, being a chinese company and all.
Legend feeling insulted, well, he has a certain right to it, but I find the translated comment to be pretty salty in a "I was horribly outclassed" way, despite the alleged respect for his hard work. Possibly lost in translation. I feel for him being humiliated though.
All in all, I'm never going to be a larva fan because he's that kind of player - and I don't like that kind of player. But we're all entitled to our own opinions and tastes, aren't we? I guess organizers of future events will have this "incident" in mind. But it's really a storm in a teacup. Please don't call for sterile tourneys with just "gg" and "pp" allowed. It's just as bad.
On December 05 2017 18:51 Draco wrote: I feel like this is all my fault...
Larva (top4 korea) almost losing a bo3 match to me as a retired pro who has been playing starcraft again for only 3 months is basicly same level of an insult as beating someone with a foot. He just had to do the same to Lx.
I wonder why ASL hasn't banned me yet, I guess that's a matter of time.
The smell of korean fear is real... watch out because who knows what the future holds.
Hahaha, watching Larva's stream after you beat him in the first game was incredible. The chat was going crazy! I may have only been using google translate but I'm pretty sure I know what "korea disgrace" translates to. The games you played against him were incredibly fun to watch, epecially the last one. I wasn't watching brood war back in the old days, but I would love to see more games from you in the future!
TL;DR: Zotac Korea/America told Larva that they didn't have problem with his actions
Larva says Zotac Korea and Zotac America was against the decision and they were big help to him with the current incident, even when there was big time zone difference between Korea/America. They stayed up all night helping him with the current fiasco.
On getting approval: Larva also said that there may have been some miscommunication between one of Zotac staff and him since the translator wasn't there when he arrived at first.
Zotac America/Korea's standpoint is that if there were problem with his performance, they wouldn't have done full screen shot of him doing it, as well as putting rules set beforehand. In other words, when they did a zoom up shot on Larva's showboating instead of turning off Larva's camera, it was implied that it was allowed
Larva said that it would have been rather problematic if the public response was negative, but it seems to be rather overwhelmingly positive.
Larva said that Legend refused his apology when he said he would apologize if his actions caused offence since Legend had his own circumstances. Larva understands 100% why legend may have been upset at him since he played with his foot and all, but Larva's had issues with Zotac China releasing the ban statement
It was said that it was Zotac China's indepdent decision to release those statements/ban, and right now, theres even opposition from Zotac America, who is asking why Zotac China released that sort of statement.
He also says the foreign reaction as well as korean reaction was very positive, and he is aware that the video clips hit 700k+ on western media, and total views are over 1m+. He was told that he would be getting more interview requests, and he had already received one as of now.
Larva also said that reason why he didn't speak out before was that even if he didn't have much to lose since he wouldn't be competing overseas often, he was afraid what he said would damage Zotac Korea/America. Since he had previously thought Zotac China was the Zotac headquarters, he didn't wanna say things that would damage Zotac Korea/America since the Zotac staff worked so hard to prepare for these events.
On incontrol misunderstanding: Larva now knows that incontrol didn't mean to give him impression that he was mad at larva. Larva says that he now knows that incontrol's facial expression was because incontrol was tired, rather than being mad at him. So thats cleared up since Larva thought incontrol was mad at him yesterday.
1. Zotac Korea and NA is helping him out and supporting him at the moment 2. Zotac China did release their statement without discussing it internally 3. Larva wanted to apologize to Legend since he is the one to decide if it was too much or not but Legend refused his apology 4. Zotac Korea & NA told him that if it was something that he shouldn't have done they shouldn't have zoomed in when he did his performance. Zooming on his performance and showing it fullscreen intentionally on the live broadcast basically means that there is no problem with it.
I'm just laughing because this was supposed to be the grand finals, and the runner up can't even beat a nuke strat. I mean if the skills are that different, then props to Larva for fking trying to make it interesting. So many more people will now see bw. Hell yeah
Just saw the last five matches, absolutely hilarious! Especially with the commentators and salty incontrol to provide the other end, just great.
In the interview at the end he mentions that he actually went out of his way to think of these things and also performed some of these feats (such as the foot on the keyboard) on this stream by user request, who like to see him do trolling feats.
After that he sasys that if its appreciated and hes invited overseas again he will think of more creative means to do small trolls. I for one hope he sees his overwelming views and backup from america/korea as positive, because I want to see more of this.
TL;DR: Zotac Korea/America told Larva that they didn't have problem with his actions
Larva says Zotac Korea and Zotac America was against the decision and they were big help to him with the current incident, even when there was big time zone difference between Korea/America. They stayed up all night helping him with the current fiasco.
On getting approval: Larva also said that there may have been some miscommunication between one of Zotac staff and him since the translator wasn't there when he arrived at first.
Zotac America/Korea's standpoint is that if there were problem with his performance, they wouldn't have done full screen shot of him doing it, as well as putting rules set beforehand. In other words, when they did a zoom up shot on Larva's showboating instead of turning off Larva's camera, it was implied that it was allowed
Larva said that it would have been rather problematic if the public response was negative, but it seems to be rather overwhelmingly positive.
Larva said that Legend refused his apology when he said he would apologize if his actions caused offence since Legend had his own circumstances. Larva understands 100% why legend may have been upset at him since he played with his foot and all, but Larva's had issues with Zotac China releasing the ban statement
It was said that it was Zotac China's indepdent decision to release those statements/ban, and right now, theres even opposition from Zotac America, who is asking why Zotac China released that sort of statement.
He also says the foreign reaction as well as korean reaction was very positive, and he is aware that the video clips hit 700k+ on western media, and total views are over 1m+. He was told that he would be getting more interview requests, and he had already received one as of now.
Larva also said that reason why he didn't speak out before was that even if he didn't have much to lose since he wouldn't be competing overseas often, he was afraid what he said would damage Zotac Korea/America. Since he had previously thought Zotac China was the Zotac headquarters, he didn't wanna say things that would damage Zotac Korea/America since the Zotac staff worked so hard to prepare for these events.
On incontrol misunderstanding: Larva now knows that incontrol didn't mean to give him impression that he was mad at larva. Larva says that he now knows that incontrol's facial expression was because incontrol was tired, rather than being mad at him. So thats cleared up since Larva thought incontrol was mad at him yesterday.
On December 05 2017 05:23 fish_radio wrote: Lx's words were mistranslated. I feel by Chinese standards at least;; "Mentally ill" and things like that are not offensive at all. The way it is written, he is genuine he believes Larva needs medical help.
I want to dislike Zotac for this, but Larva is so manner... He's a crybaby. Even in Korean networks he will trash talk everybody, then cry when someone trash talks him.
Are you actually for real? He believes Larva needs mental help, but it's definitely not an insult. I guess we have different opinions on what is insulting. I know I'd feel insulted if someone said I was actually mentally ill.
On December 05 2017 12:52 Letmelose wrote: Outrage after somebody disrespects their opponents as a showmanship comes with the territory. So does publicity. It's all part of the baggage. I didn't even know this tournament was going on until the outrage popped up.
With that being said, people who draw the line in accordance with their own specific parameters, and to pretend that their individual tastes should be acknowledged as universal truths, are quite frankly speaking, delusional.
It's like edgy comedy, everybody is just fine with it until the subject matter brushes on something too close to heart. People laugh at some at some of the most heinous shit you could imagine, such as the death of a fellow human being, making light of a serious social phenomenon, then when the jokes moves on to their personal sacred zone, such as their religion of choice, gender or nationality, they suddenly become outraged.
Sure what Larva did was incredibly disrespectful, but don't give me that bullshit about being outraged because Larva did it versus somebody older, or was far more accomplished as a professional player.
How much outrage do you think was caused when Larva danced mid-game versus Sea in the semi-finals of a much more prestigious tournament?
It is understandable that Legend is upset with the huge disrespect. It is understandable that people who care for Legend and what he stands for is upset with the huge disrespect. What is not understandable is when people come up with bullshit reasons such as the lack of sincerity for their level of outrage. People are outraged less about the actions carried out by Larva, but who it was directed against, since Larva has always been an obnoxious clown who doesn't hold back from doing in-game disrespect versus his SK Telecom T1 seniors such as BeSt, should the opportunity present itself.
If people desire a certain level of respect, that is fine. If people want to support their favourite player after being disrespected in one of the most humiliating ways, that is fine. But don't give me that bullshit of always wanting a healthy level of respect and honour in Brood War only when the situation irks you for whatever personal reasons you have.
Poor Sea, I totally agree with you. And me too, I didn't know the tournament until the incident as well. I can only imagine us gamer are the one who desire such showmanship. As any media is only there to serve the audience. The audience(us) asked for it. xD
On December 05 2017 05:23 fish_radio wrote: Lx's words were mistranslated. I feel by Chinese standards at least;; "Mentally ill" and things like that are not offensive at all. The way it is written, he is genuine he believes Larva needs medical help.
I want to dislike Zotac for this, but Larva is so manner... He's a crybaby. Even in Korean networks he will trash talk everybody, then cry when someone trash talks him.
Are you actually for real? He believes Larva needs mental help, but it's definitely not an insult. I guess we have different opinions on what is insulting. I know I'd feel insulted if someone said I was actually mentally ill.
I think this whole discussion is full of people with contradicting opinions on what's insulting and under what circumstances - and everyone is somewhat right - one may be angry when humiliated publicly, other one can enjoy it, other feel fine with it happening as long as it doesn't happen to them and some can ignore it. I don't think anyone has grounds to say that it was not intentional humiliation though and that it was a light-hearted banter between friends.
Did Legend hurt Larva now? Then it's even I feel, we should have fun, no? Or is it not okay because it's a Chinese guy insulting and we should rally behind our Korean boi?
On December 05 2017 05:23 fish_radio wrote: Lx's words were mistranslated. I feel by Chinese standards at least;; "Mentally ill" and things like that are not offensive at all. The way it is written, he is genuine he believes Larva needs medical help.
I want to dislike Zotac for this, but Larva is so manner... He's a crybaby. Even in Korean networks he will trash talk everybody, then cry when someone trash talks him.
Are you actually for real? He believes Larva needs mental help, but it's definitely not an insult. I guess we have different opinions on what is insulting. I know I'd feel insulted if someone said I was actually mentally ill.
I think this whole discussion is full of people with contradicting opinions on what's insulting and under what circumstances (and everyone is right to a degree, since it's mostly subjective - one may be angry when humiliated publicly, other one can enjoy it, other feel fine with it happening as long as it doesn't happen to them some can ignore it) and those who have fun when someone feels hurt, did Legend hurt Larva now? Then it's even I feel, we should have fun, no? Or is it not okay because it's a Chinese guy insulting?
Quite interesting pointing. I can feel myself having contradiction within myself too. I don't actually know if anything anyone show on this incident is right or wrong. For me personally, I am too dumb to figure that out. It's hard to draw a conclusion without a pre-condition.
But I can understand where both side is coming from.
But I can tell I am not a fan of Larva. Aside from that, god is the only one who can judge this situation, I am too dumb. xD
On December 05 2017 05:23 fish_radio wrote: Lx's words were mistranslated. I feel by Chinese standards at least;; "Mentally ill" and things like that are not offensive at all. The way it is written, he is genuine he believes Larva needs medical help.
I want to dislike Zotac for this, but Larva is so manner... He's a crybaby. Even in Korean networks he will trash talk everybody, then cry when someone trash talks him.
Are you actually for real? He believes Larva needs mental help, but it's definitely not an insult. I guess we have different opinions on what is insulting. I know I'd feel insulted if someone said I was actually mentally ill.
I think this whole discussion is full of people with contradicting opinions on what's insulting and under what circumstances - and everyone is somewhat right - one may be angry when humiliated publicly, other one can enjoy it, other feel fine with it happening as long as it doesn't happen to them and some can ignore it. I don't think anyone has grounds to say that it was not intentional humiliation though and that it was a light-hearted banter between friends.
Did Legend hurt Larva now? Then it's even I feel, we should have fun, no? Or is it not okay because it's a Chinese guy insulting and we should rally behind our Korean boi?
Where do you see the people yelling for Legend to be banned? People are defending Larva because he is literally being attacked by a tournament organizer. I'll start rallying behind Legend the moment there's a hint he will get banned. Are you actually trying to slide the narrative so that anyone who doesn't weep for Legends' pride is just an anti-chinese racist?
On December 05 2017 05:23 fish_radio wrote: Lx's words were mistranslated. I feel by Chinese standards at least;; "Mentally ill" and things like that are not offensive at all. The way it is written, he is genuine he believes Larva needs medical help.
I want to dislike Zotac for this, but Larva is so manner... He's a crybaby. Even in Korean networks he will trash talk everybody, then cry when someone trash talks him.
Are you actually for real? He believes Larva needs mental help, but it's definitely not an insult. I guess we have different opinions on what is insulting. I know I'd feel insulted if someone said I was actually mentally ill.
I think this whole discussion is full of people with contradicting opinions on what's insulting and under what circumstances - and everyone is somewhat right - one may be angry when humiliated publicly, other one can enjoy it, other feel fine with it happening as long as it doesn't happen to them and some can ignore it. I don't think anyone has grounds to say that it was not intentional humiliation though and that it was a light-hearted banter between friends.
Did Legend hurt Larva now? Then it's even I feel, we should have fun, no? Or is it not okay because it's a Chinese guy insulting and we should rally behind our Korean boi?
Where do you see the people yelling for Legend to be banned? People are defending Larva because he is literally being attacked by a tournament organizer. I'll start rallying behind Legend the moment there's a hint he will get banned. Are you actually trying to slide the narrative so that anyone who doesn't weep for Legends' pride is just an anti-chinese racist?
That's what I think, not to have any misunderstandings.
I'm not taking any side, I don't think it was fun to do what Larva did (that puts me in the minority I'm guessing) as it was clearly disrespectful, trying to ban Larva after the tournament is ridiculous, they could easily just interrupt him if the organizers didn't like it.
I understand both sides, what I don't understand a little bit is people getting mad at Legend for feeling offended. Is it wrong to feel offended when being disrespected? From other thread:
On December 05 2017 21:15 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: F that coward Legend, crying after he's half way across the country.
And if you're down with Legend, F u too.
Go Larva!
But I guess that behavior is warranted if you're a Korean or like Koreans very much
It's so nice to see how many people care deeply about BW and the noble spirit that it takes to compete to be the best player! I'm so sad I missed the alternate stream where all the non-korean BW fans were watching the tournaments back in the SSL days. I had no idea there were this many passionate dedicated people who really fought for the game back when Larva was grinding and failing to perform at tournaments. Truly Larva should be more respectful he owes everything to you guys for the hard work you have put into the BW scene.
On December 05 2017 05:23 fish_radio wrote: Lx's words were mistranslated. I feel by Chinese standards at least;; "Mentally ill" and things like that are not offensive at all. The way it is written, he is genuine he believes Larva needs medical help.
I want to dislike Zotac for this, but Larva is so manner... He's a crybaby. Even in Korean networks he will trash talk everybody, then cry when someone trash talks him.
Are you actually for real? He believes Larva needs mental help, but it's definitely not an insult. I guess we have different opinions on what is insulting. I know I'd feel insulted if someone said I was actually mentally ill.
I think this whole discussion is full of people with contradicting opinions on what's insulting and under what circumstances - and everyone is somewhat right - one may be angry when humiliated publicly, other one can enjoy it, other feel fine with it happening as long as it doesn't happen to them and some can ignore it. I don't think anyone has grounds to say that it was not intentional humiliation though and that it was a light-hearted banter between friends.
Did Legend hurt Larva now? Then it's even I feel, we should have fun, no? Or is it not okay because it's a Chinese guy insulting and we should rally behind our Korean boi?
Where do you see the people yelling for Legend to be banned? People are defending Larva because he is literally being attacked by a tournament organizer. I'll start rallying behind Legend the moment there's a hint he will get banned. Are you actually trying to slide the narrative so that anyone who doesn't weep for Legends' pride is just an anti-chinese racist?
I personally think the discussion focusing on solely Larva vs Legend is pointless, as both side holds to some degree convincing argument for their action to be justified.
I'd rather ask everyone here a more interesting question. People who enjoys trolling old or young, how do we want to shape the world we live in going forward?
As E-Sports starting to become more mainstream, as well as the gamer generations grows older. In what ways are actions acceptable? How does what we do in gaming community represents the value of our society. As well as the brands that is in the business of selling. Does it align with their mission?
As we grow older, do we want to teach our children the value of respecting others? At what level are we supposed to be accepting jokes. If there are content like this in the tournament / show. Would there be a maturity rating like game rating that tells this is mature audience only?
Anyhow, I am just throwing a few ideas out there. I would be interested to see how the professionals like iNcontrol, rootCatz and the pros thinks about this. As they are the one who will be the leaders in our community.
I dont think its okay to tell others how they should feel about being disrespected. I say this to those in this thread that is going around telling how others are "salty" or "bitches" for feeling like they were disrespected. This is as plain as it gets with empathy. However its advicable to inform whoever feels disrespected that this was not the intention of the offender. Its okay to admit that Larva made a mistake, without condemning him and literally banning him for lifetime.
The thing about bantering or BM, is that it is done in a social context. You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond. In the cases where the BM is intended to be received as disrespectful, there has to be an initial provokation or bad history between the players (like cj entus players vs firebathero and the pylon heart thing).
It seems larva did not think about this, hence he did a mistake - he was more focused on entertaining his audience which is a good thing in and of itself, but he had not done the approprate clarification with Legend beforehand and considering the language barrier between them this would have been quite difficult to do anyway in a proper manner. Which is why its best to just keep it clean and respectful when dealing with someone you dont know at all and who comes from a different culture and language.
We cannot throw social decensy out the window just because it gives attention on media platforms. All attention is not good attention, because it will attract the worst kind of "fans". The kind who only cares about drama and sensationalism. I would rather have quality over quantity - thats whats going to last in the long run. So lets keep promoting respectful and civil behaviour.
On December 05 2017 19:46 Golgotha wrote: I'm just laughing because this was supposed to be the grand finals, and the runner up can't even beat a nuke strat. I mean if the skills are that different, then props to Larva for fking trying to make it interesting. So many more people will now see bw. Hell yeah
Yea, can't be really mad at Larva. It was BM and while maybe not shining the best light on brood war as first impression, it gave the stream and BW definitely some bigger exposure which is great!
I think it's right of the organizers to distance themselves from Larvas actions and it's important that he explained his reasons and apologized. I really wish to believe he just did it for entertainment reasons and not to be BM specifically a chinese player ^ ^
On December 05 2017 21:41 tanngard wrote: I dont think its okay to tell others how they should feel about being disrespected. I say this to those in this thread that is going around telling how others are "salty" or "bitches" for feeling like they were disrespected. This is as plain as it gets with empathy. However its advicable to inform whoever feels disrespected that this was not the intention of the offender. Its okay to admit that Larva made a mistake, without condemning him and literally banning him for lifetime.
The thing about bantering or BM, is that it is done in a social context. You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond. In the cases where the BM is intended to be received as disrespectful, there has to be an initial provokation or bad history between the players (like cj entus players vs firebathero and the pylon heart thing).
It seems larva did not think about this, hence he did a mistake - he was more focused on entertaining his audience which is a good thing in and of itself, but he had not done the approprate clarification with Legend beforehand and considering the language barrier between them this would have been quite difficult to do anyway in a proper manner. Which is why its best to just keep it clean and respectful when dealing with someone you dont know at all and who comes from a different culture and language.
We cannot throw social decensy out the window just because it gives attention on media platforms. All attention is not good attention, because it will attract the worst kind of "fans". The kind who only cares about drama and sensationalism. I would rather have quality over quantity - thats whats going to last in the long run. So lets keep promoting respectful and civil behaviour.
Pretty sure people aren't saying Legend is a salty bitch for feeling disrespected (he was) they are saying it because of how he handled being disrespected, which is an entirely different thing.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation? What about the example in the tamest of all esports LoL controlled top down by the tyranny of Riot Games where SKT1 picked a troll composition against fnatic (I think, who really cares) for the sole reason that they won the world championship playing that previously. It made no sense, was a definite handicap, they still won the game, it was at a LoL showmatch, it was pretty embarrassing that fnatic couldn't even compete with a team trolling. Here we have a professional team in a professional tournament in a gigantic esports doing BM for no other reason than entertainment. And what do you know it even matches up with being people of a different culture and language!
As for your claims about the preservation of civilized society through BW I can only say what someone put nicely a bit further up. Opinions are split on the "gross transgressions" of Larva and proclaiming your view on the situation the morally superior high ground doesn't really change much. Seems to me it's one of those agree to disagree situations.
On December 05 2017 22:17 Rus_Brain wrote: May I kindly ask to clarify an issue core to me? Is Lx considered a waegukin for Larva? Is Larva considered a laowai for Lx?
Larva is definitely considered a laowai for LX, moreover. Han Guo Bang Zi ( a slang for not friendly name for Korean in Chinese).
I assume waegukin is equivalent of what I described in the reverse fashion for Larva xD.
On December 05 2017 21:41 tanngard wrote: I dont think its okay to tell others how they should feel about being disrespected. I say this to those in this thread that is going around telling how others are "salty" or "bitches" for feeling like they were disrespected. This is as plain as it gets with empathy. However its advicable to inform whoever feels disrespected that this was not the intention of the offender. Its okay to admit that Larva made a mistake, without condemning him and literally banning him for lifetime.
The thing about bantering or BM, is that it is done in a social context. You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond. In the cases where the BM is intended to be received as disrespectful, there has to be an initial provokation or bad history between the players (like cj entus players vs firebathero and the pylon heart thing).
It seems larva did not think about this, hence he did a mistake - he was more focused on entertaining his audience which is a good thing in and of itself, but he had not done the approprate clarification with Legend beforehand and considering the language barrier between them this would have been quite difficult to do anyway in a proper manner. Which is why its best to just keep it clean and respectful when dealing with someone you dont know at all and who comes from a different culture and language.
We cannot throw social decensy out the window just because it gives attention on media platforms. All attention is not good attention, because it will attract the worst kind of "fans". The kind who only cares about drama and sensationalism. I would rather have quality over quantity - thats whats going to last in the long run. So lets keep promoting respectful and civil behaviour.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation? What about the example in the tamest of all esports LoL controlled top down by the tyranny of Riot Games where SKT1 picked a troll composition against fnatic (I think, who really cares) for the sole reason that they won the world championship playing that previously. It made no sense, was a definite handicap, they still won the game, it was at a LoL showmatch, it was pretty embarrassing that fnatic couldn't even compete with a team trolling. Here we have a professional team in a professional tournament in a gigantic esports doing BM for no other reason than entertainment. And what do you know it even matches up with being people of a different culture and language!
I don't get your comparison, I can't believe anyone could be that offended by what was done in-game between them, isn't it just about the part outside of the game? Successful nuke rush is nowhere near as disrespectful as pretending to be asleep during the game, laughing after the games because of how easy they were or pretending to play with a foot.
If they were switching seats during the League match you're mentioning or did other stuff Larva did it would only be similar, and then I'm pretty sure there would be consequences
I watched the stream to see Draco and Lx, not this clown Larva. Cant believe theres people that found funny the foot thing, I stopped watching right there.
On December 05 2017 22:38 DracoMortuiVolantus wrote: i'd post on fb picture of me slamming keybord with dick with hashtag #LarvaDidNothingWrong but I'm already banned there for posting nudity :/
What the hell happened lol. All I see is Larva being BM playing with his feet at one point. But for his standards it's quite normal you see him do stuff like these on stream all the time.
On December 05 2017 21:41 tanngard wrote: I dont think its okay to tell others how they should feel about being disrespected. I say this to those in this thread that is going around telling how others are "salty" or "bitches" for feeling like they were disrespected. This is as plain as it gets with empathy. However its advicable to inform whoever feels disrespected that this was not the intention of the offender. Its okay to admit that Larva made a mistake, without condemning him and literally banning him for lifetime.
The thing about bantering or BM, is that it is done in a social context. You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond. In the cases where the BM is intended to be received as disrespectful, there has to be an initial provokation or bad history between the players (like cj entus players vs firebathero and the pylon heart thing).
It seems larva did not think about this, hence he did a mistake - he was more focused on entertaining his audience which is a good thing in and of itself, but he had not done the approprate clarification with Legend beforehand and considering the language barrier between them this would have been quite difficult to do anyway in a proper manner. Which is why its best to just keep it clean and respectful when dealing with someone you dont know at all and who comes from a different culture and language.
We cannot throw social decensy out the window just because it gives attention on media platforms. All attention is not good attention, because it will attract the worst kind of "fans". The kind who only cares about drama and sensationalism. I would rather have quality over quantity - thats whats going to last in the long run. So lets keep promoting respectful and civil behaviour.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation? What about the example in the tamest of all esports LoL controlled top down by the tyranny of Riot Games where SKT1 picked a troll composition against fnatic (I think, who really cares) for the sole reason that they won the world championship playing that previously. It made no sense, was a definite handicap, they still won the game, it was at a LoL showmatch, it was pretty embarrassing that fnatic couldn't even compete with a team trolling. Here we have a professional team in a professional tournament in a gigantic esports doing BM for no other reason than entertainment. And what do you know it even matches up with being people of a different culture and language!
I don't get your comparison, I can't believe anyone could be that offended by what was done in-game between them, isn't it just about the part outside of the game? Successful nuke rush is nowhere near as disrespectful as pretending to be asleep during the game, laughing after the games because of how easy they were or pretending to play with a foot.
If they were switching seats during the League match you're mentioning or did other stuff Larva did it would only be similar, and then I'm pretty sure there would be consequences
Well done you managed to completely miss the point. I didn't write anywhere that the BM was on the same level and would never argue that. I'll try and highlight my sentence.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation?
^^^^
That would be my sentence that the example was for.
On December 05 2017 21:41 tanngard wrote: I dont think its okay to tell others how they should feel about being disrespected. I say this to those in this thread that is going around telling how others are "salty" or "bitches" for feeling like they were disrespected. This is as plain as it gets with empathy. However its advicable to inform whoever feels disrespected that this was not the intention of the offender. Its okay to admit that Larva made a mistake, without condemning him and literally banning him for lifetime.
The thing about bantering or BM, is that it is done in a social context. You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond. In the cases where the BM is intended to be received as disrespectful, there has to be an initial provokation or bad history between the players (like cj entus players vs firebathero and the pylon heart thing).
It seems larva did not think about this, hence he did a mistake - he was more focused on entertaining his audience which is a good thing in and of itself, but he had not done the approprate clarification with Legend beforehand and considering the language barrier between them this would have been quite difficult to do anyway in a proper manner. Which is why its best to just keep it clean and respectful when dealing with someone you dont know at all and who comes from a different culture and language.
We cannot throw social decensy out the window just because it gives attention on media platforms. All attention is not good attention, because it will attract the worst kind of "fans". The kind who only cares about drama and sensationalism. I would rather have quality over quantity - thats whats going to last in the long run. So lets keep promoting respectful and civil behaviour.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation? What about the example in the tamest of all esports LoL controlled top down by the tyranny of Riot Games where SKT1 picked a troll composition against fnatic (I think, who really cares) for the sole reason that they won the world championship playing that previously. It made no sense, was a definite handicap, they still won the game, it was at a LoL showmatch, it was pretty embarrassing that fnatic couldn't even compete with a team trolling. Here we have a professional team in a professional tournament in a gigantic esports doing BM for no other reason than entertainment. And what do you know it even matches up with being people of a different culture and language!
I don't get your comparison, I can't believe anyone could be that offended by what was done in-game between them, isn't it just about the part outside of the game? Successful nuke rush is nowhere near as disrespectful as pretending to be asleep during the game, laughing after the games because of how easy they were or pretending to play with a foot.
If they were switching seats during the League match you're mentioning or did other stuff Larva did it would only be similar, and then I'm pretty sure there would be consequences
Well done you managed to completely miss the point. I didn't write anywhere that the BM was on the same level and would never argue that. I'll try and highlight my sentence.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation?
^^^^
That would be my sentence that the example was for.
On December 05 2017 22:17 Rus_Brain wrote: May I kindly ask to clarify an issue core to me? Is Lx considered a waegukin for Larva? Is Larva considered a laowai for Lx?
Larva is definitely considered a laowai for LX, moreover. Han Guo Bang Zi ( a slang for not friendly name for Korean in Chinese).
I assume waegukin is equivalent of what I described in the reverse fashion for Larva xD.
Then yes.
Then being a white, I'm not entitled to comment here.
On December 05 2017 21:41 tanngard wrote: I dont think its okay to tell others how they should feel about being disrespected. I say this to those in this thread that is going around telling how others are "salty" or "bitches" for feeling like they were disrespected. This is as plain as it gets with empathy. However its advicable to inform whoever feels disrespected that this was not the intention of the offender. Its okay to admit that Larva made a mistake, without condemning him and literally banning him for lifetime.
The thing about bantering or BM, is that it is done in a social context. You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond. In the cases where the BM is intended to be received as disrespectful, there has to be an initial provokation or bad history between the players (like cj entus players vs firebathero and the pylon heart thing).
It seems larva did not think about this, hence he did a mistake - he was more focused on entertaining his audience which is a good thing in and of itself, but he had not done the approprate clarification with Legend beforehand and considering the language barrier between them this would have been quite difficult to do anyway in a proper manner. Which is why its best to just keep it clean and respectful when dealing with someone you dont know at all and who comes from a different culture and language.
We cannot throw social decensy out the window just because it gives attention on media platforms. All attention is not good attention, because it will attract the worst kind of "fans". The kind who only cares about drama and sensationalism. I would rather have quality over quantity - thats whats going to last in the long run. So lets keep promoting respectful and civil behaviour.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation? What about the example in the tamest of all esports LoL controlled top down by the tyranny of Riot Games where SKT1 picked a troll composition against fnatic (I think, who really cares) for the sole reason that they won the world championship playing that previously. It made no sense, was a definite handicap, they still won the game, it was at a LoL showmatch, it was pretty embarrassing that fnatic couldn't even compete with a team trolling. Here we have a professional team in a professional tournament in a gigantic esports doing BM for no other reason than entertainment. And what do you know it even matches up with being people of a different culture and language!
I don't get your comparison, I can't believe anyone could be that offended by what was done in-game between them, isn't it just about the part outside of the game? Successful nuke rush is nowhere near as disrespectful as pretending to be asleep during the game, laughing after the games because of how easy they were or pretending to play with a foot.
If they were switching seats during the League match you're mentioning or did other stuff Larva did it would only be similar, and then I'm pretty sure there would be consequences
Well done you managed to completely miss the point. I didn't write anywhere that the BM was on the same level and would never argue that. I'll try and highlight my sentence.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation?
^^^^
That would be my sentence that the example was for.
I did not say that BM should be acceptable only when done where there was an initial provokation, so congratulations on missing my point. I said that when it is intented to hurt someone, there needs to a warrant for it unless that someone want to appear as a complete douchebag. You have to see this from Legends perspective too. You cannot expect him to be cool with travelling half across the world to what he thought would be an event where he could show of some (relative) skill, have a "good time" and represent his country, to be ultimately made into the laughing stock by some dude he dont even know socially.
And to your original response to me: We should agree to disagree on what excactly? That there are social contexts to when its acceptable or even welcomed to make fun of someone else? And what is it about Legends response that you take issue with excactly? You dont have an understanding for him returning the favour?
And to your point of me taking a "moral highground" doesnt amount to much, because people are split on the issue of larvas transgressions. What you are missing here is that i talked about civil behaviour as a counter argument against those that are claiming here that the goal of gathering attention, justify the means of disrespecting someone else.
But even so, i think its ill adviced for a lot of people here to add there own standards unto someone else. Usually when someone feels trampled on in life, they have good reason to feel thats the case, even if people who cannot understand them from the inside like to claim otherwise. We could talk about, how larvas actions was not intended to hurt anyone, like i just wrote in my last comment, but i dont like repeating myself.
I am big on respecting other cultures and understanding that we as each society hold different values and expectations closer to our heart. However, the only thing I hold above that is intention. When people are from different countries and cultures, they cannot possibly always understand these very fragile issues. This is why intention is important. Larva did not mean to personally hurt Legend and voiced his reason for doing what he did. Also the things I have seen in these threads from some posters have been way more disrespectful, intentionally asinine, and borderline racist than what Larva did.
It makes the whole point of this discussion rather moot when people who want to voice their displeasure do so in a manner that is more disrespectful than the person they are angry at for "not being respectful". Also, I am not well versed in Chinese culture, but I find it rather hard to believe that they don't like some abuse when "chinese femdom" is its own brand of pornography and even has a higher video count than just flat out "femdom" (aka the rest of the world combined) on pornhub.
It looks to me that the issue wasn't with Larva, but in the communication between Zotac and the people organizing the tournament on the spot. They obviously thought what Larva is doing is fine, and made a show out of it. It would be very easy for them to tell him to stop between games, or not put him on the fullscreen all the time.
But I guess for Zotac it's easier to make a scapegoat out of player for breaking thought-up rules, than acknowledge their own mistake.
On December 06 2017 00:09 Tuczniak wrote: It looks to me that the issue wasn't with Larva, but in the communication between Zotac and the people organizing the tournament on the spot. They obviously thought what Larva is doing is fine, and made a show out of it. It would be very easy for them to tell him to stop between games, or not put him on the fullscreen all the time.
But I guess for Zotac it's easier to make a scapegoat out of player for breaking thought-up rules, than acknowledge their own mistake.
As much as I don't enjoy what Larva did.
I think the people who should really be responsible for this incident and its backlash are the organizers. People from Zotac and Blizzard. They most likely invited Larva for who he is, and hoping one of these stunt he pull off will get a lot of publicity. Which is what we get to witness. However, they probably did not anticipate this much controversy happens..... and had no plan b if things go south in this particular fashion.
However, I don't know everything for sure, and all we are doing here are just speculating on what happened.
But am I surprised this happened in a Starcraft match? um... probably no, blizzard is very behind on the whole E-sport industry thing. While back in the days StarCraft and blizzard have brought infancy of E-sports to the world. Now they are left behind by a large margin from all the competitors who have a much better eco-system for E-sports. Namely Riot(Tecent) , Valve, and many other organizations. It's sad to see this tho.
On December 06 2017 00:09 Tuczniak wrote: It looks to me that the issue wasn't with Larva, but in the communication between Zotac and the people organizing the tournament on the spot. They obviously thought what Larva is doing is fine, and made a show out of it. It would be very easy for them to tell him to stop between games, or not put him on the fullscreen all the time.
But I guess for Zotac it's easier to make a scapegoat out of player for breaking thought-up rules, than acknowledge their own mistake.
As much as I don't enjoy what Larva did.
I think the people who should really be responsible for this incident and its backlash are the organizers. People from Zotac and Blizzard. They most likely invited Larva for who he is, and hoping one of these stunt he pull off will get a lot of publicity. Which is what we get to witness. However, they probably did not anticipate this much controversy happens..... and had no plan b if things go south in this particular fashion.
However, I don't know everything for sure, and all we are doing here are just speculating on what happened.
But am I surprised this happened in a Starcraft match? um... probably no, blizzard is very behind on the whole E-sport industry thing. While back in the days StarCraft and blizzard have brought infancy of E-sports to the world. Now they are left behind by a large margin from all the competitors who have a much better eco-system for E-sports. Namely Riot(Tecent) , Valve, and many other organizations. It's sad to see this tho.
Are the Chinese unifyingly behind Lx in that? You only hear the loud ones being outraged at Larva here, not the others (who probably wouldn't bother to register here anyway).
On December 06 2017 00:09 Tuczniak wrote: It looks to me that the issue wasn't with Larva, but in the communication between Zotac and the people organizing the tournament on the spot. They obviously thought what Larva is doing is fine, and made a show out of it. It would be very easy for them to tell him to stop between games, or not put him on the fullscreen all the time.
But I guess for Zotac it's easier to make a scapegoat out of player for breaking thought-up rules, than acknowledge their own mistake.
As much as I don't enjoy what Larva did.
I think the people who should really be responsible for this incident and its backlash are the organizers. People from Zotac and Blizzard. They most likely invited Larva for who he is, and hoping one of these stunt he pull off will get a lot of publicity. Which is what we get to witness. However, they probably did not anticipate this much controversy happens..... and had no plan b if things go south in this particular fashion.
However, I don't know everything for sure, and all we are doing here are just speculating on what happened.
But am I surprised this happened in a Starcraft match? um... probably no, blizzard is very behind on the whole E-sport industry thing. While back in the days StarCraft and blizzard have brought infancy of E-sports to the world. Now they are left behind by a large margin from all the competitors who have a much better eco-system for E-sports. Namely Riot(Tecent) , Valve, and many other organizations. It's sad to see this tho.
Are the Chinese unifyingly behind Lx in that? You only hear the loud ones being outraged at Larva here, not the others (who probably wouldn't bother to register here anyway).
Yes, if you look at what the large public media is leading the story into. this whole situation has been elevated to an incident that is framed as "Korean SCBW Progamer publicly shamed a Chinese player during match." The story has been ran by multiple state-affiliated high profile media. You can imagine as if Spiegel from Germany, or New York Times, CNN or the like have ran with the story with such headline. It does feed the public the fuel to rage about. (Nationalism is at a very high level in China right now. And the uneasy tension between Chinese-Korean public relationship due to North Korea is shooting missile a lot, Korea has added some anti-missile system from USA, which have caused the latest round of sanction from Chinese Government on Korean companies etc etc) And plus, most of the reporter are not familiar with the SC scene, who Larva is. And frankly, LX is very respected in the Chinese Scene, imagine Mondragon get delivered such celebration by Larva. It first definitely started with the fanboy, but as many people I have came across who don't even play the game is now behind LX and very troubled about what Larva did. So yeah, I think even a lot of people who are not gamer are waking up to find this as an insult as the media have ran the stories. Gee Gee. It's no surprise Zotac China Division quickly responded with such statement. Basically Zotac has put itself into a PR crisis in China.
No, there are still Chinese who would hold different opinion, who would say Lx doesn't have the skill is the original problem to start with. Or Larva is just who he is and we should not take it as an insult. However, these opinions are being attacked by a lot of people.
I think on a more grand scheme of things definitely yes, since the high profile media has a vital role to swing public opinion on this.
Within the StarCraft community, there maybe 80% people are definitely behind Lx, and 20% who are saying otherwise.
And again, my answers are just my own speculation and reasoning based on what I know. It's no where near accurate at all.
On December 06 2017 00:09 Tuczniak wrote: It looks to me that the issue wasn't with Larva, but in the communication between Zotac and the people organizing the tournament on the spot. They obviously thought what Larva is doing is fine, and made a show out of it. It would be very easy for them to tell him to stop between games, or not put him on the fullscreen all the time.
But I guess for Zotac it's easier to make a scapegoat out of player for breaking thought-up rules, than acknowledge their own mistake.
As much as I don't enjoy what Larva did.
I think the people who should really be responsible for this incident and its backlash are the organizers. People from Zotac and Blizzard. They most likely invited Larva for who he is, and hoping one of these stunt he pull off will get a lot of publicity. Which is what we get to witness. However, they probably did not anticipate this much controversy happens..... and had no plan b if things go south in this particular fashion.
However, I don't know everything for sure, and all we are doing here are just speculating on what happened.
But am I surprised this happened in a Starcraft match? um... probably no, blizzard is very behind on the whole E-sport industry thing. While back in the days StarCraft and blizzard have brought infancy of E-sports to the world. Now they are left behind by a large margin from all the competitors who have a much better eco-system for E-sports. Namely Riot(Tecent) , Valve, and many other organizations. It's sad to see this tho.
Are the Chinese unifyingly behind Lx in that? You only hear the loud ones being outraged at Larva here, not the others (who probably wouldn't bother to register here anyway).
Yes, this whole situation has been elevated to an incident that is framed as "Korean SCBW Progamer publicly shamed a Chinese player during match." The story has been ran by multiple state-affiliated high profile media. You can imagine as if Spiegel from Germany, or New York Times, CNN or the like have ran with the story with such headline. It does feed the public the fuel to rage about. (Nationalism is at a very high level in China right now. And the uneasy tension between Chinese-Korean public relationship due to North Korea is shooting missile a lot, Korea has added some anti-missile system from USA, which have caused the latest round of sanction from Chinese Government on Korean companies etc etc) And plus, most of the reporter are not familiar with the SC scene, who Larva is. And frankly, LX is very respected in the Chinese Scene, imagine Mondragon get delivered such celebration by Larva. It first definitely started with the fanboy, but as many people I have came across who don't even play the game is now behind LX and very troubled about what Larva did. So yeah, I think even a lot of people who are not gamer are waking up to find this as an insult as the media have ran the stories. Gee Gee. It's no surprise Zotac China Division quickly responded with such statement. Basically Zotac has put itself into a PR crisis in China.
This is interesting. Thank you for this post. It actually makes this seem a little more real to me.
"You nuke Chinese man Mr Larva? Well here in China we had nuclear arms treaty. Had. Key word there. So.. I believe you are familiar with this... but.. Nuclear Launch Detected!"
On December 05 2017 23:52 tanngard wrote: ...to be ultimately made into the laughing stock by some dude he dont even know socially.
This is what I don't understand. I don't think he was made into a laughing stock. He presented himself professionally. It's his behavior afterword that makes him look bad in my judgement.
I really wish he and Zotac had waited a few days before making statements in order to allow emotions and translation issues to diminish. Emotion and haste are not good ways to engage issues.
If you want a sincere apology instead of just an apology, that is the way to go, btw. If you wait a few days to understand what happened and why and then issue a statement that doesn't demand an apology, you might actually get one... and then you know the character of everyone involved either way.
On December 05 2017 23:52 tanngard wrote: ...to be ultimately made into the laughing stock by some dude he dont even know socially.
This is what I don't understand. I don't think he was made into a laughing stock. He presented himself professionally. It's his behavior afterword that makes him look bad in my judgement.
Again, Legend didn't use the term "mentally retarded" to describe Larva. He literally said "someone whose brain has sickness", which is a VERY common and benign saying in Chinese. Equivalent to "idiot" or "moron", both of which I would say is perfectly acceptable response given the circumstances.
Did Zotac not know who Larva was when they invited him? Did they expect a close finals? Why would you invite one of the best top korean pro zergs who have a reputation of doing this stuff if you're going to get super salty when it happens? Then at least intervene after game 1 and tell him that it is not tolerated.
Seems to me like the organizers had no problem letting Larva continue his thing until they got complaints and then they totally changed their stance on the matter.
On December 06 2017 02:16 StylishVODs wrote: Did Zotac not know who Larva was when they invited him? Did they expect a close finals? Why would you invite one of the best top korean pro zergs who have a reputation of doing this stuff if you're going to get super salty when it happens? Then at least intervene after game 1 and tell him that it is not tolerated.
Seems to me like the organizers had no problem letting Larva continue his thing until they got complaints and then they totally changed their stance on the matter.
Think that was exactly their intention but didn't expect the entire Chinese internet unifying behind to give backlash
But on other hand, the clip blew up and went viral in west.
On December 06 2017 00:09 Tuczniak wrote: It looks to me that the issue wasn't with Larva, but in the communication between Zotac and the people organizing the tournament on the spot. They obviously thought what Larva is doing is fine, and made a show out of it. It would be very easy for them to tell him to stop between games, or not put him on the fullscreen all the time.
But I guess for Zotac it's easier to make a scapegoat out of player for breaking thought-up rules, than acknowledge their own mistake.
As much as I don't enjoy what Larva did.
I think the people who should really be responsible for this incident and its backlash are the organizers. People from Zotac and Blizzard. They most likely invited Larva for who he is, and hoping one of these stunt he pull off will get a lot of publicity. Which is what we get to witness. However, they probably did not anticipate this much controversy happens..... and had no plan b if things go south in this particular fashion.
However, I don't know everything for sure, and all we are doing here are just speculating on what happened.
But am I surprised this happened in a Starcraft match? um... probably no, blizzard is very behind on the whole E-sport industry thing. While back in the days StarCraft and blizzard have brought infancy of E-sports to the world. Now they are left behind by a large margin from all the competitors who have a much better eco-system for E-sports. Namely Riot(Tecent) , Valve, and many other organizations. It's sad to see this tho.
Are the Chinese unifyingly behind Lx in that? You only hear the loud ones being outraged at Larva here, not the others (who probably wouldn't bother to register here anyway).
Yes, if you look at what the large public media is leading the story into. this whole situation has been elevated to an incident that is framed as "Korean SCBW Progamer publicly shamed a Chinese player during match." The story has been ran by multiple state-affiliated high profile media. You can imagine as if Spiegel from Germany, or New York Times, CNN or the like have ran with the story with such headline. It does feed the public the fuel to rage about. (Nationalism is at a very high level in China right now. And the uneasy tension between Chinese-Korean public relationship due to North Korea is shooting missile a lot, Korea has added some anti-missile system from USA, which have caused the latest round of sanction from Chinese Government on Korean companies etc etc) And plus, most of the reporter are not familiar with the SC scene, who Larva is. And frankly, LX is very respected in the Chinese Scene, imagine Mondragon get delivered such celebration by Larva. It first definitely started with the fanboy, but as many people I have came across who don't even play the game is now behind LX and very troubled about what Larva did. So yeah, I think even a lot of people who are not gamer are waking up to find this as an insult as the media have ran the stories. Gee Gee. It's no surprise Zotac China Division quickly responded with such statement. Basically Zotac has put itself into a PR crisis in China.
No, there are still Chinese who would hold different opinion, who would say Lx doesn't have the skill is the original problem to start with. Or Larva is just who he is and we should not take it as an insult. However, these opinions are being attacked by a lot of people.
I think on a more grand scheme of things definitely yes, since the high profile media has a vital role to swing public opinion on this.
Within the StarCraft community, there maybe 80% people are definitely behind Lx, and 20% who are saying otherwise.
And again, my answers are just my own speculation and reasoning based on what I know. It's no where near accurate at all.
This is a matter of personal morality and has nothing to do with nationalism.
In response to the tournament organizers not doing anything:
One of the tournament players (will remain anon unless he says he wants to speak) came into discord chat the next day, and talked about the event some. Questions were asked, and it was said that all the players and organizers were laughing at Larva's antics (when he was bming) off camera the entire time.
It's easy to get caught up in this thing, especially when you're there live and everything's going on, people are all around you getting in on it, creating an atmosphere where one or two people just might not feel so included. I'm sure everyone understands what I mean, and if that was the situation, it's fairly easy to see why those feelings might get pushed to the wayside, especially if it's a group of guys trying to put on a show for thousands of viewers instead of a real corporate environment.
On December 06 2017 00:09 Tuczniak wrote: It looks to me that the issue wasn't with Larva, but in the communication between Zotac and the people organizing the tournament on the spot. They obviously thought what Larva is doing is fine, and made a show out of it. It would be very easy for them to tell him to stop between games, or not put him on the fullscreen all the time.
But I guess for Zotac it's easier to make a scapegoat out of player for breaking thought-up rules, than acknowledge their own mistake.
As much as I don't enjoy what Larva did.
I think the people who should really be responsible for this incident and its backlash are the organizers. People from Zotac and Blizzard. They most likely invited Larva for who he is, and hoping one of these stunt he pull off will get a lot of publicity. Which is what we get to witness. However, they probably did not anticipate this much controversy happens..... and had no plan b if things go south in this particular fashion.
However, I don't know everything for sure, and all we are doing here are just speculating on what happened.
But am I surprised this happened in a Starcraft match? um... probably no, blizzard is very behind on the whole E-sport industry thing. While back in the days StarCraft and blizzard have brought infancy of E-sports to the world. Now they are left behind by a large margin from all the competitors who have a much better eco-system for E-sports. Namely Riot(Tecent) , Valve, and many other organizations. It's sad to see this tho.
Are the Chinese unifyingly behind Lx in that? You only hear the loud ones being outraged at Larva here, not the others (who probably wouldn't bother to register here anyway).
Yes, if you look at what the large public media is leading the story into. this whole situation has been elevated to an incident that is framed as "Korean SCBW Progamer publicly shamed a Chinese player during match." The story has been ran by multiple state-affiliated high profile media. You can imagine as if Spiegel from Germany, or New York Times, CNN or the like have ran with the story with such headline. It does feed the public the fuel to rage about. (Nationalism is at a very high level in China right now. And the uneasy tension between Chinese-Korean public relationship due to North Korea is shooting missile a lot, Korea has added some anti-missile system from USA, which have caused the latest round of sanction from Chinese Government on Korean companies etc etc) And plus, most of the reporter are not familiar with the SC scene, who Larva is. And frankly, LX is very respected in the Chinese Scene, imagine Mondragon get delivered such celebration by Larva. It first definitely started with the fanboy, but as many people I have came across who don't even play the game is now behind LX and very troubled about what Larva did. So yeah, I think even a lot of people who are not gamer are waking up to find this as an insult as the media have ran the stories. Gee Gee. It's no surprise Zotac China Division quickly responded with such statement. Basically Zotac has put itself into a PR crisis in China.
No, there are still Chinese who would hold different opinion, who would say Lx doesn't have the skill is the original problem to start with. Or Larva is just who he is and we should not take it as an insult. However, these opinions are being attacked by a lot of people.
I think on a more grand scheme of things definitely yes, since the high profile media has a vital role to swing public opinion on this.
Within the StarCraft community, there maybe 80% people are definitely behind Lx, and 20% who are saying otherwise.
And again, my answers are just my own speculation and reasoning based on what I know. It's no where near accurate at all.
This is a matter of personal morality and has nothing to do with nationalism.
Take what I say with grain of salt. It's my personal speculation, and how I view this whole situation.
Believe me, I've seen many Chinese get on things with bias influenced by nationalism. Myself included, especially for people who are still living in China, even people who have come to the western world. Our world view is biased to some degree by the Nationalism.
In my opinion, if this incident did not took place between Lx(Chinese) vs Larva(Korean), this would be much less of a problem. The Chinese public opinion is easily jumping on anything that can jump on the Korean..... And the media knows what can click bait for views..........
And believe me, I support Lx as I am a big fan of his. And I was close to the Chinese SCBW pro scene on a personal basis.
I think www.douyou.tv is the happiest company while this incident taking place, it has successfully taken away the attention which was focused on the PUBG streamer on their platform have been confirmed as cheaters/hackers. xD
Chinese media on their own are interesting and operate in a weird way.
On December 05 2017 22:42 Dante08 wrote: What the hell happened lol. All I see is Larva being BM playing with his feet at one point. But for his standards it's quite normal you see him do stuff like these on stream all the time.
There are differencens between his stream and offline game. You can ML in the stream and ML in the public street, too???
On December 06 2017 00:09 Tuczniak wrote: It looks to me that the issue wasn't with Larva, but in the communication between Zotac and the people organizing the tournament on the spot. They obviously thought what Larva is doing is fine, and made a show out of it. It would be very easy for them to tell him to stop between games, or not put him on the fullscreen all the time.
But I guess for Zotac it's easier to make a scapegoat out of player for breaking thought-up rules, than acknowledge their own mistake.
As much as I don't enjoy what Larva did.
I think the people who should really be responsible for this incident and its backlash are the organizers. People from Zotac and Blizzard. They most likely invited Larva for who he is, and hoping one of these stunt he pull off will get a lot of publicity. Which is what we get to witness. However, they probably did not anticipate this much controversy happens..... and had no plan b if things go south in this particular fashion.
However, I don't know everything for sure, and all we are doing here are just speculating on what happened.
But am I surprised this happened in a Starcraft match? um... probably no, blizzard is very behind on the whole E-sport industry thing. While back in the days StarCraft and blizzard have brought infancy of E-sports to the world. Now they are left behind by a large margin from all the competitors who have a much better eco-system for E-sports. Namely Riot(Tecent) , Valve, and many other organizations. It's sad to see this tho.
Are the Chinese unifyingly behind Lx in that? You only hear the loud ones being outraged at Larva here, not the others (who probably wouldn't bother to register here anyway).
Yes, if you look at what the large public media is leading the story into. this whole situation has been elevated to an incident that is framed as "Korean SCBW Progamer publicly shamed a Chinese player during match." The story has been ran by multiple state-affiliated high profile media. You can imagine as if Spiegel from Germany, or New York Times, CNN or the like have ran with the story with such headline. It does feed the public the fuel to rage about. (Nationalism is at a very high level in China right now. And the uneasy tension between Chinese-Korean public relationship due to North Korea is shooting missile a lot, Korea has added some anti-missile system from USA, which have caused the latest round of sanction from Chinese Government on Korean companies etc etc) And plus, most of the reporter are not familiar with the SC scene, who Larva is. And frankly, LX is very respected in the Chinese Scene, imagine Mondragon get delivered such celebration by Larva. It first definitely started with the fanboy, but as many people I have came across who don't even play the game is now behind LX and very troubled about what Larva did. So yeah, I think even a lot of people who are not gamer are waking up to find this as an insult as the media have ran the stories. Gee Gee. It's no surprise Zotac China Division quickly responded with such statement. Basically Zotac has put itself into a PR crisis in China.
No, there are still Chinese who would hold different opinion, who would say Lx doesn't have the skill is the original problem to start with. Or Larva is just who he is and we should not take it as an insult. However, these opinions are being attacked by a lot of people.
I think on a more grand scheme of things definitely yes, since the high profile media has a vital role to swing public opinion on this.
Within the StarCraft community, there maybe 80% people are definitely behind Lx, and 20% who are saying otherwise.
And again, my answers are just my own speculation and reasoning based on what I know. It's no where near accurate at all.
This is a matter of personal morality and has nothing to do with nationalism.
Take what I say with grain of salt. It's my personal speculation, and how I view this whole situation.
Believe me, I've seen many Chinese get on things with bias influenced by nationalism. Myself included, especially for people who are still living in China, even people who have come to the western world. Our world view is biased to some degree by the Nationalism.
In my opinion, if this incident did not took place between Lx(Chinese) vs Larva(Korean), this would be much less of a problem. The Chinese public opinion is easily jumping on anything that can jump on the Korean..... And the media knows what can click bait for views..........
And believe me, I support Lx as I am a big fan of his. And I was close to the Chinese SCBW pro scene on a personal basis.
I think www.douyou.tv is the happiest company while this incident taking place, it has successfully taken away the attention which was focused on the PUBG streamer on their platform have been confirmed as cheaters/hackers. xD
Chinese media on their own are interesting and operate in a weird way.
Playing devil's advocate (to some people's eyes), and purely an assumption at this point, but this is what may have fueled the anger:
To add on to this, Larva only BM'd Legend throughout the tournament. Some people might have looked it as Korea shaming China via video game, which triggered the media response from the Chinese.
And the recent interaction between two countries haven't been positive either.
What I'm trying to say is, the huge negative reaction was triggered by Larva's actions, but I highly doubt that it was the sole factor in this case. Especially given the recent history.
EDIT: Correction from RCCar's post, and my fault for not personally looking this up before posting.
On December 06 2017 00:09 Tuczniak wrote: It looks to me that the issue wasn't with Larva, but in the communication between Zotac and the people organizing the tournament on the spot. They obviously thought what Larva is doing is fine, and made a show out of it. It would be very easy for them to tell him to stop between games, or not put him on the fullscreen all the time.
But I guess for Zotac it's easier to make a scapegoat out of player for breaking thought-up rules, than acknowledge their own mistake.
As much as I don't enjoy what Larva did.
I think the people who should really be responsible for this incident and its backlash are the organizers. People from Zotac and Blizzard. They most likely invited Larva for who he is, and hoping one of these stunt he pull off will get a lot of publicity. Which is what we get to witness. However, they probably did not anticipate this much controversy happens..... and had no plan b if things go south in this particular fashion.
However, I don't know everything for sure, and all we are doing here are just speculating on what happened.
But am I surprised this happened in a Starcraft match? um... probably no, blizzard is very behind on the whole E-sport industry thing. While back in the days StarCraft and blizzard have brought infancy of E-sports to the world. Now they are left behind by a large margin from all the competitors who have a much better eco-system for E-sports. Namely Riot(Tecent) , Valve, and many other organizations. It's sad to see this tho.
Are the Chinese unifyingly behind Lx in that? You only hear the loud ones being outraged at Larva here, not the others (who probably wouldn't bother to register here anyway).
Yes, if you look at what the large public media is leading the story into. this whole situation has been elevated to an incident that is framed as "Korean SCBW Progamer publicly shamed a Chinese player during match." The story has been ran by multiple state-affiliated high profile media. You can imagine as if Spiegel from Germany, or New York Times, CNN or the like have ran with the story with such headline. It does feed the public the fuel to rage about. (Nationalism is at a very high level in China right now. And the uneasy tension between Chinese-Korean public relationship due to North Korea is shooting missile a lot, Korea has added some anti-missile system from USA, which have caused the latest round of sanction from Chinese Government on Korean companies etc etc) And plus, most of the reporter are not familiar with the SC scene, who Larva is. And frankly, LX is very respected in the Chinese Scene, imagine Mondragon get delivered such celebration by Larva. It first definitely started with the fanboy, but as many people I have came across who don't even play the game is now behind LX and very troubled about what Larva did. So yeah, I think even a lot of people who are not gamer are waking up to find this as an insult as the media have ran the stories. Gee Gee. It's no surprise Zotac China Division quickly responded with such statement. Basically Zotac has put itself into a PR crisis in China.
No, there are still Chinese who would hold different opinion, who would say Lx doesn't have the skill is the original problem to start with. Or Larva is just who he is and we should not take it as an insult. However, these opinions are being attacked by a lot of people.
I think on a more grand scheme of things definitely yes, since the high profile media has a vital role to swing public opinion on this.
Within the StarCraft community, there maybe 80% people are definitely behind Lx, and 20% who are saying otherwise.
And again, my answers are just my own speculation and reasoning based on what I know. It's no where near accurate at all.
This is a matter of personal morality and has nothing to do with nationalism.
Take what I say with grain of salt. It's my personal speculation, and how I view this whole situation.
Believe me, I've seen many Chinese get on things with bias influenced by nationalism. Myself included, especially for people who are still living in China, even people who have come to the western world. Our world view is biased to some degree by the Nationalism.
In my opinion, if this incident did not took place between Lx(Chinese) vs Larva(Korean), this would be much less of a problem. The Chinese public opinion is easily jumping on anything that can jump on the Korean..... And the media knows what can click bait for views..........
And believe me, I support Lx as I am a big fan of his. And I was close to the Chinese SCBW pro scene on a personal basis.
I think www.douyou.tv is the happiest company while this incident taking place, it has successfully taken away the attention which was focused on the PUBG streamer on their platform have been confirmed as cheaters/hackers. xD
Chinese media on their own are interesting and operate in a weird way.
Playing devil's advocate (to some people's eyes), and purely an assumption at this point, but this is what may have fueled the anger:
To add on to this, Larva only BM'd Legend throughout the tournament. Of course, they did have history together of staying in T1 together (iirc), but some people might have looked it as Korea shaming China via video game, which triggered the media response from the Chinese.
And the recent interaction between two countries haven't been positive either.
What I'm trying to say is, the huge negative reaction was triggered by Larva's actions, but I highly doubt that it was the sole factor in this case. Especially given the recent history.
Legend was in SKT back in early/mid 2000s Larva made his debut in 2010 (in estro) Larva would have been a kid~in his early teens when Legend was in SKT. The two do not know each other, have no friendship whatsoever.
Personally, the more I dig into this issue, the more I think ZOTAC is at fault. They were completely on board with the idea, didn't think Larva was going too far until Legend called him out- at which point, they deny they let the whole thing happen. As Larva mentioned, if ZOTAC thought he was going too far they should have stopped him. Now, they are throwing away Larva completely to cater to the Chinese viewers, which makes them cowards, and less professional than Larva in my book. I don't think what Larva did was good- I think he should have stuck to in game bm and done out of game ceremonies outside of the game. But ZOTAC did do their best to put more blame on him, using him as a scapegoat. I'm disappointed with the indecision of tournament organizers, and disappointed in their actual decision as well.
What's so funny about watching a weaker player get creatively humiliated in front of an audience?
I didn't tune in, but when I do, I tune in for Brood War, not whatever that was.
Sure, it would have been worse if Larva had pulled his opponents' pants down onstage, but it also would have been better if he had just used a bit of sense. Although I enjoyed his ASL performances, I'm not at all surprised ZOTAC isn't inviting him back.
On December 06 2017 03:36 Djabanete wrote: What's so funny about watching a weaker player get creatively humiliated in front of an audience?
I didn't tune in, but when I do, I tune in for Brood War, not whatever that was.
Sure, it would have been worse if Larva had pulled his opponents' pants down onstage, but it also would have been better if he had just used a bit of sense. Although I enjoyed his ASL performances, I'm not at all surprised ZOTAC isn't inviting him back.
I found it hilarious, casters were laughing, all of twitch chat seemed to think it was hilarious. I think this made the tournament a thousands times more entertaining than to watch a pro player destroy a non-pro player in an easy 3-0 with his best race. Who tunes in for that boring nothingness?
On December 06 2017 03:36 Djabanete wrote: What's so funny about watching a weaker player get creatively humiliated in front of an audience?
I didn't tune in, but when I do, I tune in for Brood War, not whatever that was.
Sure, it would have been worse if Larva had pulled his opponents' pants down onstage, but it also would have been better if he had just used a bit of sense. Although I enjoyed his ASL performances, I'm not at all surprised ZOTAC isn't inviting him back.
I found it hilarious, casters were laughing, all of twitch chat seemed to think it was hilarious. I think this made the tournament a thousands times more entertaining than to watch a pro player destroy a non-pro player in an easy 3-0 with his best race. Who tunes in for that boring nothingness?
Did you watch Draco vs Larva? Was that boring you think? Now Larva did not even give Lx a chance to create a legit upset - first by offracing with his super good terran (lx would have prepared for zerg) and then for going completely clown mode in the last series.
I am a bit sad that we have gotten to the point where making something that is so hilarious (every caster was laughing, I was laughing, everyone I know who saw it told me it was hilarious) is considered "disrespectful" and turns out into a ban for future events.
Seriously, we are 10 year olds? Guys, I go to work everyday and my boss shouts at me even when he is the one who fucked up. And guess what, I Taylor Swift shake it off and keep on working.
I can understand that someone gets upset, but are we supposed to help or cuddle everyone every time someone gets upset? How many times you guys have totally lost it when loosing a game you thought you had in the bag? Or something similar?
Nothing happens if you are offended, you grow up and learn to ignore it.
Here is the real bad part about this: There are only 2 possibilities, 1. We show the world that BW is a place where BM is allowed and people are grown ups. 2. We do not allow BM and keep making it a politically correct environment (like we fucking can) till everyone has to behave (even as I am writing this its so stupid I know its never gonna happen).
And Zotac is taking a stance that we are all children and need to be protected from BM.... Good luck with that (thou i totally get their point, they did a 20 000 dollar event and got negative press.... how would you react?!).
Well done ZOTAC, well done larva. Publicity ova 9 thousand, though larva already is notorious for such antics.
Give the guy a break. He used to humiliate himself too (remember The Dragoon?) for a living. Now he gets to humiliate other people. He even made a statement, which makes a lot of sense (and I really hope he's not lying) about actually NOT trying to humilate Lx and how this whole incident happened.
And there's the off poster that I see having a problem with larva offracing and nuking Lx. Please elaborate. I mean, why would there be ANYTHING wrong with doing that? Why is that BM?
Honestly, from watching the VOD of Legend vs Larva today Geoff definitely did have some salt. At least most likely. Here's the thing is that I don't care, it doesn't make him a good or bad person. He is allowed to have whatever opinion on Larva he wants.
Also, I am talking more about what he said during the game then during the interview. During the interview he did seem to have more deadpan humor, but from his commentary he seemed to be sort of pissed about Larva. But I don't think thats a bad or good thing like I said
Honestly though, I dont think this publicity is all bad...I mean a VOD of brood war made it to the front page of reddit. Overall it was pretty funny of an incident
I read the post by Legend and Zotac. They wrote like it was me being shitty and all but I didn't even do the performance to belittle my opponent or his country but because I heard that Americans loved such ceremonies. I felt like I had to do something funny to make the competition memorable to the fans and I even went to see Legend after the game at night to apologize in person but he refused to see me and wrote that post on his SNS afterwards.
I also heard that Zotac banned me from participating from now on but it's not like I asked them to participate, it was them who invited me so I don't even care and I don't plan to participate in their tournaments anyway. I believe I actually helped Zotac for making this controversy but I guess making Chinese people angry was wrong. I do understand Chinese for getting angry but there were no rules against what I did in the competition and the reactions from America and Korea were overall positive. Legend refused my initial apology and wrote shitpost about me himself so I don't even feel the need to apologize now.
IF this was such a huge problem, why didn't they (Zotac I guess) inform me between the sets?
Larva unapologetic after lx decided to whine online instead of accepting an apology in person!!
On December 06 2017 03:36 Djabanete wrote: What's so funny about watching a weaker player get creatively humiliated in front of an audience?
I didn't tune in, but when I do, I tune in for Brood War, not whatever that was.
Sure, it would have been worse if Larva had pulled his opponents' pants down onstage, but it also would have been better if he had just used a bit of sense. Although I enjoyed his ASL performances, I'm not at all surprised ZOTAC isn't inviting him back.
I found it hilarious, casters were laughing, all of twitch chat seemed to think it was hilarious. I think this made the tournament a thousands times more entertaining than to watch a pro player destroy a non-pro player in an easy 3-0 with his best race. Who tunes in for that boring nothingness?
Did you watch Draco vs Larva? Was that boring you think? Now Larva did not even give Lx a chance to create a legit upset - first by offracing with his super good terran (lx would have prepared for zerg) and then for going completely clown mode in the last series.
I mean kind of... yeah. The only entertaining part was for the novelty of seeing one of the best in the world play someone that is not a professional player. The games weren't close, as soon as Larva's macro advantage kicked in during the mid-game it was a massacre. That novelty wears off pretty quick though and then you're just left wondering why anyone would even organize a showmatch between players of such skill disparities.
On December 06 2017 03:36 Djabanete wrote: What's so funny about watching a weaker player get creatively humiliated in front of an audience?
I didn't tune in, but when I do, I tune in for Brood War, not whatever that was.
Sure, it would have been worse if Larva had pulled his opponents' pants down onstage, but it also would have been better if he had just used a bit of sense. Although I enjoyed his ASL performances, I'm not at all surprised ZOTAC isn't inviting him back.
I found it hilarious, casters were laughing, all of twitch chat seemed to think it was hilarious. I think this made the tournament a thousands times more entertaining than to watch a pro player destroy a non-pro player in an easy 3-0 with his best race. Who tunes in for that boring nothingness?
Did you watch Draco vs Larva? Was that boring you think? Now Larva did not even give Lx a chance to create a legit upset - first by offracing with his super good terran (lx would have prepared for zerg) and then for going completely clown mode in the last series.
I mean kind of... yeah. The only entertaining part was for the novelty of seeing one of the best in the world play someone that is not a professional player. The games weren't close, as soon as Larva's macro advantage kicked in during the mid-game it was a massacre. That novelty wears off pretty quick though and then you're just left wondering why anyone would even organize a showmatch between players of such skill disparities.
Well i can agree on some of that. It seems that some of these organizations believe that the skillgap between koreans and the rest is comparaple to what was true for sc2. And when you add to that the fact that players like Legend and Draco has not been active for 6-7 years, it makes the idea of upsets or having just good games pretty darn hopeless. At least if was better to have a korean for showmatches and not the actual tournament like they did with ESL in Italy.
Which brings me back to a question that have been left unanswered: was the prize pool intended for the american players only? Did Larva win any money? Even the commentators could not get a hold of this information during the event..
On December 05 2017 21:41 tanngard wrote: I dont think its okay to tell others how they should feel about being disrespected. I say this to those in this thread that is going around telling how others are "salty" or "bitches" for feeling like they were disrespected. This is as plain as it gets with empathy. However its advicable to inform whoever feels disrespected that this was not the intention of the offender. Its okay to admit that Larva made a mistake, without condemning him and literally banning him for lifetime.
The thing about bantering or BM, is that it is done in a social context. You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond. In the cases where the BM is intended to be received as disrespectful, there has to be an initial provokation or bad history between the players (like cj entus players vs firebathero and the pylon heart thing).
It seems larva did not think about this, hence he did a mistake - he was more focused on entertaining his audience which is a good thing in and of itself, but he had not done the approprate clarification with Legend beforehand and considering the language barrier between them this would have been quite difficult to do anyway in a proper manner. Which is why its best to just keep it clean and respectful when dealing with someone you dont know at all and who comes from a different culture and language.
We cannot throw social decensy out the window just because it gives attention on media platforms. All attention is not good attention, because it will attract the worst kind of "fans". The kind who only cares about drama and sensationalism. I would rather have quality over quantity - thats whats going to last in the long run. So lets keep promoting respectful and civil behaviour.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation? What about the example in the tamest of all esports LoL controlled top down by the tyranny of Riot Games where SKT1 picked a troll composition against fnatic (I think, who really cares) for the sole reason that they won the world championship playing that previously. It made no sense, was a definite handicap, they still won the game, it was at a LoL showmatch, it was pretty embarrassing that fnatic couldn't even compete with a team trolling. Here we have a professional team in a professional tournament in a gigantic esports doing BM for no other reason than entertainment. And what do you know it even matches up with being people of a different culture and language!
I don't get your comparison, I can't believe anyone could be that offended by what was done in-game between them, isn't it just about the part outside of the game? Successful nuke rush is nowhere near as disrespectful as pretending to be asleep during the game, laughing after the games because of how easy they were or pretending to play with a foot.
If they were switching seats during the League match you're mentioning or did other stuff Larva did it would only be similar, and then I'm pretty sure there would be consequences
Well done you managed to completely miss the point. I didn't write anywhere that the BM was on the same level and would never argue that. I'll try and highlight my sentence.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation?
^^^^
That would be my sentence that the example was for.
I did not say that BM should be acceptable only when done where there was an initial provokation, so congratulations on missing my point. I said that when it is intented to hurt someone, there needs to a warrant for it unless that someone want to appear as a complete douchebag. You have to see this from Legends perspective too. You cannot expect him to be cool with travelling half across the world to what he thought would be an event where he could show of some (relative) skill, have a "good time" and represent his country, to be ultimately made into the laughing stock by some dude he dont even know socially.
And to your original response to me: We should agree to disagree on what excactly? That there are social contexts to when its acceptable or even welcomed to make fun of someone else? And what is it about Legends response that you take issue with excactly? You dont have an understanding for him returning the favour?
And to your point of me taking a "moral highground" doesnt amount to much, because people are split on the issue of larvas transgressions. What you are missing here is that i talked about civil behaviour as a counter argument against those that are claiming here that the goal of gathering attention, justify the means of disrespecting someone else.
But even so, i think its ill adviced for a lot of people here to add there own standards unto someone else. Usually when someone feels trampled on in life, they have good reason to feel thats the case, even if people who cannot understand them from the inside like to claim otherwise. We could talk about, how larvas actions was not intended to hurt anyone, like i just wrote in my last comment, but i dont like repeating myself.
Yes I did imagine that might be returned onto me. What you did say however is " You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond." And SKT1 surely had no idea how fnatic would respond to the BMing hence they would not be aware of the social context either. So are you seriously claiming that people in competitions never humiliate their opponents and that competition follows the same social norms as regular society? People get humiliated in sports and esports all the time it's a different social setting to regular society. With the updates on Legends statement I take a lot less issue with calling Larva and idiot than if he as first reported called him mentally ill. Honestly I really don't care too much about what Legend does and doesn't do I care about what ZOTAC does. And I agree that civil behaviour is more important than gathering attention. What I am saying is you don't get to dictate what is allowed in civilized society. What Larva was damaging to Legend ego, but nothing else. Some people may feel that it breaches the limits of what they consider permissible, but that is not universal law merely an opinion. It's ill adviced for a lot of people to add their own standard unto someone else? Curious how that doesn't seem to apply to people putting their standards unto Larva.
On December 06 2017 06:39 iloveav wrote: I am a bit sad that we have gotten to the point where making something that is so hilarious (every caster was laughing, I was laughing, everyone I know who saw it told me it was hilarious) is considered "disrespectful" and turns out into a ban for future events.
Seriously, we are 10 year olds? Guys, I go to work everyday and my boss shouts at me even when he is the one who fucked up. And guess what, I Taylor Swift shake it off and keep on working.
I can understand that someone gets upset, but are we supposed to help or cuddle everyone every time someone gets upset? How many times you guys have totally lost it when loosing a game you thought you had in the bag? Or something similar?
Nothing happens if you are offended, you grow up and learn to ignore it.
Here is the real bad part about this: There are only 2 possibilities, 1. We show the world that BW is a place where BM is allowed and people are grown ups. 2. We do not allow BM and keep making it a politically correct environment (like we fucking can) till everyone has to behave (even as I am writing this its so stupid I know its never gonna happen).
And Zotac is taking a stance that we are all children and need to be protected from BM.... Good luck with that (thou i totally get their point, they did a 20 000 dollar event and got negative press.... how would you react?!).
I wouldn't even call it strictly BM. I would call it showboating. It's like Michael Jordan talking shit to his opponents and then hitting a free throw with his eyes closed, or Usain Bolt pumping his chest before he even crosses the finish line, or a boxer dropping their hands to their side and taunting their opponent to hit them while dodging their punches and then knocking them out. They're saying "I'm so much better than you look what I can do and still win."
Which brings me back to a question that have been left unanswered: was the prize pool intended for the american players only? Did Larva win any money? Even the commentators could not get a hold of this information during the event..
1st $10,000 South Korea Larva 2nd $3,000 China Legend
They both got a decent chunk of change out of the situation. This of course assuming that they give Larva the prize despite the ban, but I'm pretty sure he did get his money regardless.
On December 06 2017 06:39 iloveav wrote: I am a bit sad that we have gotten to the point where making something that is so hilarious (every caster was laughing, I was laughing, everyone I know who saw it told me it was hilarious) is considered "disrespectful" and turns out into a ban for future events.
Seriously, we are 10 year olds? Guys, I go to work everyday and my boss shouts at me even when he is the one who fucked up. And guess what, I Taylor Swift shake it off and keep on working.
I can understand that someone gets upset, but are we supposed to help or cuddle everyone every time someone gets upset? How many times you guys have totally lost it when loosing a game you thought you had in the bag? Or something similar?
Nothing happens if you are offended, you grow up and learn to ignore it.
Here is the real bad part about this: There are only 2 possibilities, 1. We show the world that BW is a place where BM is allowed and people are grown ups. 2. We do not allow BM and keep making it a politically correct environment (like we fucking can) till everyone has to behave (even as I am writing this its so stupid I know its never gonna happen).
And Zotac is taking a stance that we are all children and need to be protected from BM.... Good luck with that (thou i totally get their point, they did a 20 000 dollar event and got negative press.... how would you react?!).
I wouldn't even call it strictly BM. I would call it showboating. It's like Michael Jordan talking shit to his opponents and then hitting a free throw with his eyes closed, or Usain Bolt pumping his chest before he even crosses the finish line, or a boxer dropping their hands to their side and taunting their opponent to hit them while dodging their punches and then knocking them out. They're saying "I'm so much better than you look what I can do and still win."
So true. We even know that Dereck Chisora made a huge disrespect towards brother's Klitschko: first at press conference he slapped older one Vitaliy and right before match vs. Vladimir he spitted water to his face from his mouth lol. And still he got away with it although got his ass beaten afterwards. And now there we have Larva clowning around. Look at guy: he won't harm an ant. Banning is one of the most stupid fucked up decisions in BW history. It's even worse than what KeSPA did to players who typed something else than GG ingame.
Which brings me back to a question that have been left unanswered: was the prize pool intended for the american players only? Did Larva win any money? Even the commentators could not get a hold of this information during the event..
according to reddit, Larva isn't really banned by Zotac (not in events run by Zotac KR and America anyways). The ban is coming independently form Chinese branch so it seems there's a lot of miscommunication within the company. Zotac America had no problem with the showboating.
Which brings me back to a question that have been left unanswered: was the prize pool intended for the american players only? Did Larva win any money? Even the commentators could not get a hold of this information during the event..
On December 06 2017 08:48 ilikeredheads wrote: according to reddit, Larva isn't really banned by Zotac (not in events run by Zotac KR and America anyways). The ban is coming independently form Chinese branch so it seems there's a lot of miscommunication within the company. Zotac America had no problem with the showboating.
I mean they seemed to be fine with showing all of it on the big camera so it would be pretty hard for them to make an argument against it. China is just incredibly salty.
Which brings me back to a question that have been left unanswered: was the prize pool intended for the american players only? Did Larva win any money? Even the commentators could not get a hold of this information during the event..
Which brings me back to a question that have been left unanswered: was the prize pool intended for the american players only? Did Larva win any money? Even the commentators could not get a hold of this information during the event..
Which brings me back to a question that have been left unanswered: was the prize pool intended for the american players only? Did Larva win any money? Even the commentators could not get a hold of this information during the event..
On December 05 2017 21:41 tanngard wrote: I dont think its okay to tell others how they should feel about being disrespected. I say this to those in this thread that is going around telling how others are "salty" or "bitches" for feeling like they were disrespected. This is as plain as it gets with empathy. However its advicable to inform whoever feels disrespected that this was not the intention of the offender. Its okay to admit that Larva made a mistake, without condemning him and literally banning him for lifetime.
The thing about bantering or BM, is that it is done in a social context. You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond. In the cases where the BM is intended to be received as disrespectful, there has to be an initial provokation or bad history between the players (like cj entus players vs firebathero and the pylon heart thing).
It seems larva did not think about this, hence he did a mistake - he was more focused on entertaining his audience which is a good thing in and of itself, but he had not done the approprate clarification with Legend beforehand and considering the language barrier between them this would have been quite difficult to do anyway in a proper manner. Which is why its best to just keep it clean and respectful when dealing with someone you dont know at all and who comes from a different culture and language.
We cannot throw social decensy out the window just because it gives attention on media platforms. All attention is not good attention, because it will attract the worst kind of "fans". The kind who only cares about drama and sensationalism. I would rather have quality over quantity - thats whats going to last in the long run. So lets keep promoting respectful and civil behaviour.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation? What about the example in the tamest of all esports LoL controlled top down by the tyranny of Riot Games where SKT1 picked a troll composition against fnatic (I think, who really cares) for the sole reason that they won the world championship playing that previously. It made no sense, was a definite handicap, they still won the game, it was at a LoL showmatch, it was pretty embarrassing that fnatic couldn't even compete with a team trolling. Here we have a professional team in a professional tournament in a gigantic esports doing BM for no other reason than entertainment. And what do you know it even matches up with being people of a different culture and language!
I don't get your comparison, I can't believe anyone could be that offended by what was done in-game between them, isn't it just about the part outside of the game? Successful nuke rush is nowhere near as disrespectful as pretending to be asleep during the game, laughing after the games because of how easy they were or pretending to play with a foot.
If they were switching seats during the League match you're mentioning or did other stuff Larva did it would only be similar, and then I'm pretty sure there would be consequences
Well done you managed to completely miss the point. I didn't write anywhere that the BM was on the same level and would never argue that. I'll try and highlight my sentence.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation?
^^^^
That would be my sentence that the example was for.
I did not say that BM should be acceptable only when done where there was an initial provokation, so congratulations on missing my point. I said that when it is intented to hurt someone, there needs to a warrant for it unless that someone want to appear as a complete douchebag. You have to see this from Legends perspective too. You cannot expect him to be cool with travelling half across the world to what he thought would be an event where he could show of some (relative) skill, have a "good time" and represent his country, to be ultimately made into the laughing stock by some dude he dont even know socially.
And to your original response to me: We should agree to disagree on what excactly? That there are social contexts to when its acceptable or even welcomed to make fun of someone else? And what is it about Legends response that you take issue with excactly? You dont have an understanding for him returning the favour?
And to your point of me taking a "moral highground" doesnt amount to much, because people are split on the issue of larvas transgressions. What you are missing here is that i talked about civil behaviour as a counter argument against those that are claiming here that the goal of gathering attention, justify the means of disrespecting someone else.
But even so, i think its ill adviced for a lot of people here to add there own standards unto someone else. Usually when someone feels trampled on in life, they have good reason to feel thats the case, even if people who cannot understand them from the inside like to claim otherwise. We could talk about, how larvas actions was not intended to hurt anyone, like i just wrote in my last comment, but i dont like repeating myself.
Yes I did imagine that might be returned onto me. What you did say however is " You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond." And SKT1 surely had no idea how fnatic would respond to the BMing hence they would not be aware of the social context either. So are you seriously claiming that people in competitions never humiliate their opponents and that competition follows the same social norms as regular society? People get humiliated in sports and esports all the time it's a different social setting to regular society. With the updates on Legends statement I take a lot less issue with calling Larva and idiot than if he as first reported called him mentally ill. Honestly I really don't care too much about what Legend does and doesn't do I care about what ZOTAC does. And I agree that civil behaviour is more important than gathering attention. What I am saying is you don't get to dictate what is allowed in civilized society. What Larva was damaging to Legend ego, but nothing else. Some people may feel that it breaches the limits of what they consider permissible, but that is not universal law merely an opinion. It's ill adviced for a lot of people to add their own standard unto someone else? Curious how that doesn't seem to apply to people putting their standards unto Larva.
I have already written about how i dont agree with the ban on larva made by zotac, so I do somewhat agree with you on the point of not dictating social rules unto others. My intention has not been to try and dictate the behavior of someone else. I have never implied that larva is a bad person. I am making the argument that larva forgot to think about how his antics would be received by legend and his fans. Evryone can make such a mistake. I dont make that claim to pull my standards on someone else, its an honest attempt to localize what went wrong between the two players so hopefully there is something to be learned from these events. Because to not care about how your actions will be received by the person on the receiving end of them could never be correct if we want to live in a better society. Im sure larva would agree on that and hence why i say he was being neglecting, rather than that he was justifying it through some kind of nihilism or ill-intent. But of course we fuck up all the time and that is okay as long as we can learn from it. I believe that the social contexts for when BM is permissible, is very complex and its quite hard to write down definite definitions (like i guess i have tried), or try and prove our points by giving various examples. But going by this situation alone and definitions aside, the fact is that lx felt disrespected. And if life have taught me anything it is that when someone feels disrespected they usually have picked up upon something crucial, while the person doing the offending often have their minds closed off to the idea that they did something wrong because their Ego is afraid how that would imply that they're being a "bad" person. Of course it doesnt help the matter when the person being offended is confused by the intentions of the offender and goes to vicious counter attacks. Its a bad cycle.
I am doing mistakes all the time, but i hope with time i can grow as a person and do less of them. I will never be perfect though, so will have to be able to forgive myself even though its damned hard sometimes.
On December 06 2017 03:36 Djabanete wrote: What's so funny about watching a weaker player get creatively humiliated in front of an audience?
I didn't tune in, but when I do, I tune in for Brood War, not whatever that was.
Sure, it would have been worse if Larva had pulled his opponents' pants down onstage, but it also would have been better if he had just used a bit of sense. Although I enjoyed his ASL performances, I'm not at all surprised ZOTAC isn't inviting him back.
I found it hilarious, casters were laughing, all of twitch chat seemed to think it was hilarious. I think this made the tournament a thousands times more entertaining than to watch a pro player destroy a non-pro player in an easy 3-0 with his best race. Who tunes in for that boring nothingness?
Did you watch Draco vs Larva? Was that boring you think? Now Larva did not even give Lx a chance to create a legit upset - first by offracing with his super good terran (lx would have prepared for zerg) and then for going completely clown mode in the last series.
Larva did a troll build with an offrace so the games were harder? Holy crap the excuses are really evolving.
On December 06 2017 03:36 Djabanete wrote: What's so funny about watching a weaker player get creatively humiliated in front of an audience?
I didn't tune in, but when I do, I tune in for Brood War, not whatever that was.
Sure, it would have been worse if Larva had pulled his opponents' pants down onstage, but it also would have been better if he had just used a bit of sense. Although I enjoyed his ASL performances, I'm not at all surprised ZOTAC isn't inviting him back.
I found it hilarious, casters were laughing, all of twitch chat seemed to think it was hilarious. I think this made the tournament a thousands times more entertaining than to watch a pro player destroy a non-pro player in an easy 3-0 with his best race. Who tunes in for that boring nothingness?
Did you watch Draco vs Larva? Was that boring you think? Now Larva did not even give Lx a chance to create a legit upset - first by offracing with his super good terran (lx would have prepared for zerg) and then for going completely clown mode in the last series.
Larva did a troll build with an offrace so the games were harder? Holy crap the excuses are really evolving.
The master swordsman does not fear the second best swordsman, he fears the one who has never picked up a sword in their life. Is this what they were going for?
I don't really get what was funny about it. Didn't feel impressive or creative. And it was never necessarily risky on his end, beyond his first game drone kill. He would do something in down time then immediately play normal when actual game play was required. Not sure how that is showmanship.
On December 05 2017 21:41 tanngard wrote: I dont think its okay to tell others how they should feel about being disrespected. I say this to those in this thread that is going around telling how others are "salty" or "bitches" for feeling like they were disrespected. This is as plain as it gets with empathy. However its advicable to inform whoever feels disrespected that this was not the intention of the offender. Its okay to admit that Larva made a mistake, without condemning him and literally banning him for lifetime.
The thing about bantering or BM, is that it is done in a social context. You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond. In the cases where the BM is intended to be received as disrespectful, there has to be an initial provokation or bad history between the players (like cj entus players vs firebathero and the pylon heart thing).
It seems larva did not think about this, hence he did a mistake - he was more focused on entertaining his audience which is a good thing in and of itself, but he had not done the approprate clarification with Legend beforehand and considering the language barrier between them this would have been quite difficult to do anyway in a proper manner. Which is why its best to just keep it clean and respectful when dealing with someone you dont know at all and who comes from a different culture and language.
We cannot throw social decensy out the window just because it gives attention on media platforms. All attention is not good attention, because it will attract the worst kind of "fans". The kind who only cares about drama and sensationalism. I would rather have quality over quantity - thats whats going to last in the long run. So lets keep promoting respectful and civil behaviour.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation? What about the example in the tamest of all esports LoL controlled top down by the tyranny of Riot Games where SKT1 picked a troll composition against fnatic (I think, who really cares) for the sole reason that they won the world championship playing that previously. It made no sense, was a definite handicap, they still won the game, it was at a LoL showmatch, it was pretty embarrassing that fnatic couldn't even compete with a team trolling. Here we have a professional team in a professional tournament in a gigantic esports doing BM for no other reason than entertainment. And what do you know it even matches up with being people of a different culture and language!
I don't get your comparison, I can't believe anyone could be that offended by what was done in-game between them, isn't it just about the part outside of the game? Successful nuke rush is nowhere near as disrespectful as pretending to be asleep during the game, laughing after the games because of how easy they were or pretending to play with a foot.
If they were switching seats during the League match you're mentioning or did other stuff Larva did it would only be similar, and then I'm pretty sure there would be consequences
Well done you managed to completely miss the point. I didn't write anywhere that the BM was on the same level and would never argue that. I'll try and highlight my sentence.
So BM is always done where there is an initial provokation?
^^^^
That would be my sentence that the example was for.
I did not say that BM should be acceptable only when done where there was an initial provokation, so congratulations on missing my point. I said that when it is intented to hurt someone, there needs to a warrant for it unless that someone want to appear as a complete douchebag. You have to see this from Legends perspective too. You cannot expect him to be cool with travelling half across the world to what he thought would be an event where he could show of some (relative) skill, have a "good time" and represent his country, to be ultimately made into the laughing stock by some dude he dont even know socially.
And to your original response to me: We should agree to disagree on what excactly? That there are social contexts to when its acceptable or even welcomed to make fun of someone else? And what is it about Legends response that you take issue with excactly? You dont have an understanding for him returning the favour?
And to your point of me taking a "moral highground" doesnt amount to much, because people are split on the issue of larvas transgressions. What you are missing here is that i talked about civil behaviour as a counter argument against those that are claiming here that the goal of gathering attention, justify the means of disrespecting someone else.
But even so, i think its ill adviced for a lot of people here to add there own standards unto someone else. Usually when someone feels trampled on in life, they have good reason to feel thats the case, even if people who cannot understand them from the inside like to claim otherwise. We could talk about, how larvas actions was not intended to hurt anyone, like i just wrote in my last comment, but i dont like repeating myself.
Yes I did imagine that might be returned onto me. What you did say however is " You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond." And SKT1 surely had no idea how fnatic would respond to the BMing hence they would not be aware of the social context either. So are you seriously claiming that people in competitions never humiliate their opponents and that competition follows the same social norms as regular society? People get humiliated in sports and esports all the time it's a different social setting to regular society. With the updates on Legends statement I take a lot less issue with calling Larva and idiot than if he as first reported called him mentally ill. Honestly I really don't care too much about what Legend does and doesn't do I care about what ZOTAC does. And I agree that civil behaviour is more important than gathering attention. What I am saying is you don't get to dictate what is allowed in civilized society. What Larva was damaging to Legend ego, but nothing else. Some people may feel that it breaches the limits of what they consider permissible, but that is not universal law merely an opinion. It's ill adviced for a lot of people to add their own standard unto someone else? Curious how that doesn't seem to apply to people putting their standards unto Larva.
I have already written about how i dont agree with the ban on larva made by zotac, so I do somewhat agree with you on the point of not dictating social rules unto others. My intention has not been to try and dictate the behavior of someone else. I have never implied that larva is a bad person. I am making the argument that larva forgot to think about how his antics would be received by legend and his fans. Evryone can make such a mistake. I dont make that claim to pull my standards on someone else, its an honest attempt to localize what went wrong between the two players so hopefully there is something to be learned from these events. Because to not care about how your actions will be received by the person on the receiving end of them could never be correct if we want to live in a better society. Im sure larva would agree on that and hence why i say he was being neglecting, rather than that he was justifying it through some kind of nihilism or ill-intent. But of course we fuck up all the time and that is okay as long as we can learn from it. I believe that the social contexts for when BM is permissible, is very complex and its quite hard to write down definite definitions (like i guess i have tried), or try and prove our points by giving various examples. But going by this situation alone and definitions aside, the fact is that lx felt disrespected. And if life have taught me anything it is that when someone feels disrespected they usually have picked up upon something crucial, while the person doing the offending often have their minds closed off to the idea that they did something wrong because their Ego is afraid how that would imply that they're being a "bad" person. Of course it doesnt help the matter when the person being offended is confused by the intentions of the offender and goes to vicious counter attacks. Its a bad cycle.
I am doing mistakes all the time, but i hope with time i can grow as a person and do less of them. I will never be perfect though, so will have to be able to forgive myself even though its damned hard sometimes.
(Moved post to this thread) To be honest, I am very impressed by Larva's social wisdom, not only is he a good BW player, he surely knows how to entertain his audience, and (in a neutral sense) how to manipulate information and public opinion to favour him. This post is not meant to undermine Larva's position, but is meant to analyse the entire incident and to address the elephant in the room that everyone seems to have forgotten: if a public humiliation (even if it was not meant to be a humiliation) deserves an apology, then it should deserve a public apology instead of a private one, otherwise it would strike the victim as insincere.
I tried asking a few Chinese players to dig for some info regarding what exactly happened. According to what they described, Legend said he "sat there, not knowing what to do for half an hour" after the match (let's assume the translations are correct, as of now I cannot confirm this), this appears to indicate that Larva did not apologise right after the match, probably not realising how his actions affected Legend, and that Legend likely participated in the tournament with a very serious mindset, otherwise he would just leave with a smile. Larva likely realised the severity of the issue later and decided to apologise to Legend, only to be met with refusal. From a moral perspective, a public humiliation deserves a public apology, I can hardly imagine how a private apology after a public humiliation could work out for Legend (assuming that he is TRULY offended, it appears that this is the case in Chinese culture), therefore Legend's reason for refusing Larva's private apology does not seem to be entirely unjustified. Legend probably thought that Larva's offer wasn't sincere enough, thus rejected it.
I think if it were a Westerner all of this wouldn't have happened due to different cultural customs and norms, but unfortunately this wasn't the case. Larva, likely accidentally or coincidentally, picked the wrong candidate for his shows. What's more unfortunate is that the Western audience has been easily manipulated by Larva's exploitation of the cultural gap between Western and Eastern cultures. Larva probably knew that in Western culture his behaviours would be less of a deal, especially in a show match, therefore Westerners would likely fail to realise how offensive his actions were in the eyes of Legend. Coupled with Legend's refusal of Larva's private apology, Larva has successfully painted himself as the honourable victim of a scandal, and portrayed Legend as a narrow-minded, egoistic loser who is too butthurt to act like a man. I make this deduction based on my experience as a fan of Eastern culture, so no, don't ask me which animes are good to watch otherwise you will spend the rest of your life infront of your computer...But you can start with Death Note.
Once again, I have to say I am really amazed by Larva's emotional intelligence and showmanship, I have certainly learned a lot from observing this incident. However until I can dig up more information from Legend's side, conclusions should not be given regarding this incident, but since I do not know Legend nor do I know anyone who does know him personally I guess we will never have an answer.
May the incident be settled by mature and responsible responses from both sides...
I read the post by Legend and Zotac. They wrote like it was me being shitty and all but I didn't even do the performance to belittle my opponent or his country but because I heard that Americans loved such ceremonies. I felt like I had to do something funny to make the competition memorable to the fans and I even went to see Legend after the game at night to apologize in person but he refused to see me and wrote that post on his SNS afterwards.
I also heard that Zotac banned me from participating from now on but it's not like I asked them to participate, it was them who invited me so I don't even care and I don't plan to participate in their tournaments anyway. I believe I actually helped Zotac for making this controversy but I guess making Chinese people angry was wrong. I do understand Chinese for getting angry but there were no rules against what I did in the competition and the reactions from America and Korea were overall positive. Legend refused my initial apology and wrote shitpost about me himself so I don't even feel the need to apologize now.
IF this was such a huge problem, why didn't they (Zotac I guess) inform me between the sets?
On December 06 2017 19:09 FoR_BlueS wrote: (Moved post to this thread) To be honest, I am very impressed by Larva's social wisdom, not only is he a good BW player, he surely knows how to entertain his audience, and (in a neutral sense) how to manipulate information and public opinion to favour him. This post is not meant to undermine Larva's position, but is meant to analyse the entire incident and to address the elephant in the room that everyone seems to have forgotten: if a public humiliation (even if it was not meant to be a humiliation) deserves an apology, then it should deserve a public apology instead of a private one, otherwise it would strike the victim as insincere.
I tried asking a few Chinese players to dig for some info regarding what exactly happened. According to what they described, Legend said he "sat there, not knowing what to do for half an hour" after the match (let's assume the translations are correct, as of now I cannot confirm this), this appears to indicate that Larva did not apologise right after the match, probably not realising how his actions affected Legend, and that Legend likely participated in the tournament with a very serious mindset, otherwise he would just leave with a smile. Larva likely realised the severity of the issue later and decided to apologise to Legend, only to be met with refusal. From a moral perspective, a public humiliation deserves a public apology, I can hardly imagine how a private apology after a public humiliation could work out for Legend (assuming that he is TRULY offended, it appears that this is the case in Chinese culture), therefore Legend's reason for refusing Larva's private apology does not seem to be entirely unjustified. Legend probably thought that Larva's offer wasn't sincere enough, thus rejected it.
I think if it were a Westerner all of this wouldn't have happened due to different cultural customs and norms, but unfortunately this wasn't the case. Larva, likely accidentally or coincidentally, picked the wrong candidate for his shows. What's more unfortunate is that the Western audience has been easily manipulated by Larva's exploitation of the cultural gap between Western and Eastern cultures. Larva probably knew that in Western culture his behaviours would be less of a deal, especially in a show match, therefore Westerners would likely fail to realise how offensive his actions were in the eyes of Legend. Coupled with Legend's refusal of Larva's private apology, Larva has successfully painted himself as the honourable victim of a scandal, and portrayed Legend as a narrow-minded, egoistic loser who is too butthurt to act like a man. I make this deduction based on my experience as a fan of Eastern culture, so no, don't ask me which animes are good to watch otherwise you will spend the rest of your life infront of your computer...But you can start with Death Note.
Once again, I have to say I am really amazed by Larva's emotional intelligence and showmanship, I have certainly learned a lot from observing this incident. However until I can dig up more information from Legend's side, conclusions should not be given regarding this incident, but since I do not know Legend nor do I know anyone who does know him personally I guess we will never have an answer.
May the incident be settled by mature and responsible responses from both sides...
No offense but don't you think that you and others are taking this too seriously? I've seen you cite Kant, Rousseau, Plato, now we're talking about cultural norms. We're dealing with somebody clowning around in a showmatch of a video game. It's not exactly the scandal of the century. If getting beat by somebody playing with their foot in a video game is the worst thing that happened to Legend this year then maybe he should count his blessings and hope that 2018 is just as kind to him.
On December 07 2017 04:37 f10eqq wrote: A new wrinkle in this story. Apparently Lx dissed the other competitors just days before his match w/ Larva. Here's his post on weibo where he calls the other players 草鸡 which means "hen, a metaphor for one who is weak and a coward. Makes the banning even more ridiculous.
What a crybaby. Talks shit behind all the other players backs then throws a hissy fit when he gets disrespected in the booth. Cue hordes of Chinese netizens starting up VPNs to spam TL/afreeca/ygosu.
On December 07 2017 04:37 f10eqq wrote: A new wrinkle in this story. Apparently Lx dissed the other competitors just days before his match w/ Larva. Here's his post on weibo where he calls the other players 草鸡 which means "hen, a metaphor for one who is weak and a coward. Makes the banning even more ridiculous.
Hope you enjoyed getting stomped on by Larva's foot of justice!
Literally all that happened was that Legend has no sense of humor and Larva is bad at figuring out who has a sense of humor. Comedians get banned at events all the time for misreading the type of audience they're performing to and by saying things that don't make them laugh at all or are too off-color.
All this "China vs. South Korea" talk is irrelevant and just psychological projections by a few spectators who have been indoctrinated with nationalism. None of this would've been an issue if either Legend simply said "Larva may have been a jerk but I wasn't offended because I know he was acting", or if Larva had the foresight that Legend is insecure and does not like being joked about (like Seeker and the current U.S. president).
You will never see Germany soccer team intentionally give free penalty or play with a hand cuffed goal keeper against weaker opponent, they can play with young player or B team. Fedrer would not play with weaker hand or pretend sleeping when he play a showmatch with Fiji national champion.
Sure these things can draw attention and have more viewers, but it doesn't make it right. There is no rules against it but it doesn't mean there is no line. All handicaps if any should be given with both sides agree.
I don't want my favorite game with this kinds of shit, not my cup of tea. Larva went too far, I am glad he did get some punishment.
On December 07 2017 05:27 mishimaBeef wrote: i don't think he was beat by foot play, incontrol correctly commented in real time that the important part was over
exactly. larva played the important parts of the game legitimately, and only played the very beginning with mouse only and then after he had already held the all in by bringing his feet up. its like A-moving your army with a 100 supply lead and then alt-tab afking. you already won the game, it's not like he lost to a guy literally playing with his foot the entire time.
this was very eye opening, i learned a thing or 2 about chinese culture and nationalism and the very fragile mindset of anything disrespectful happening to a fellow countryman in the eyes of the chinese.. i am not trying to be racist, honestly. from what i have read and watched (a small documentary on chinese nationalism) it seems like nationalism and pride in china is something surreal for people from the western world like me to fully understand
I donot think larva will do real apology to lx in privite not even in public.
I sponsored lots of game larva vs somepro. About two month ago,I sponsor larva vs someone,3/2,500balloons. I said to larva that I want to join game to and observer . Larva ignor what I said and start the game ,then he said 'sori" "sori" "I didnot see " .It looks like he didnot see my word.If true It is OK and I donot mind.But finally my friend (who speak korea language)told me that larva notice what I said ,larva talk in Korea language that he actually see what I said but still "ignor "me.
Here is the larva's black history (a korea friend told me this yesterday)^_^:
Larva use to smoke and had bad manner in SKT1 although he was not even a adult.When lose to someone (elder than him),he start to talk shit. Once he was drinking alcohol and eating pig's foot, and SKT1 coach find him.Larva got punished by coach and he should upload 40 replays of practice everyday.Larva thought coach was busy and would never watch his replays.Then larva upload replays ( only 2-3mins lenth) to the coach.Coachs watched these replays and decide wash larva away.When the new zerg-practicor come,larva was fired.Larva beg but no use.
Larva then prepare to interview as zerg-practicor of CJ.But he wear SKT1 uniform for the interview.CJ coach said to him:"are you crazy""you will do crazy things in the future and we donot want cover your ass and will not hire you"Then no company want larva.
Here is the larva's black history (a korea friend told me this yesterday)^_^:
Larva use to smoke and had bad manner in SKT1 although he was not even a adult.When lose to someone (elder than him),he start to talk shit. Once he was drinking alcohol and eating pig's foot, and SKT1 coach find him.Larva got punished by coach and he should upload 40 replays of practice everyday.Larva thought coach was busy and would never watch his replays.Then larva upload replays ( only 2-3mins lenth) to the coach.Coachs watched these replays and decide wash larva away.When the new zerg-practicor come,larva was fired.Larva beg but no use.
Larva then prepare to interview as zerg-practicor of CJ.But he wear SKT1 uniform for the interview.CJ coach said to him:"are you crazy""you will do crazy things in the future and we donot want cover your ass and will not hire you"Then no company want larva.
Wow, Larva is such a bad guy. Smoking, eating pig's foot (:D) and drinking some alcohol is so disgusting...
Jokes aside I'm really glad that they fired him and no one wanted him again otherwise he could be forced to switch SC2 like everyone and maybe today we could see him as top SC2 zerg cause all shining stars of latest era of BW became bonjwas on SC2 but Larva remained faithful to his roots and now we see him here. Thanks for posting this and making larva fans even more proud!
I donot think larva will do real apology to lx in privite not even in public.
I sponsored lots of game larva vs somepro. About two month ago,I sponsor larva vs someone,3/2,500balloons. I said to larva that I want to join game to and observer . Larva ignor what I said and start the game ,then he said 'sori" "sori" "I didnot see " .It looks like he didnot see my word.If true It is OK and I donot mind.But finally my friend (who speak korea language)told me that larva notice what I said ,larva talk in Korea language that he actually see what I said but still "ignor "me.
Here is the larva's black history (a korea friend told me this yesterday)^_^:
Larva use to smoke and had bad manner in SKT1 although he was not even a adult.When lose to someone (elder than him),he start to talk shit. Once he was drinking alcohol and eating pig's foot, and SKT1 coach find him.Larva got punished by coach and he should upload 40 replays of practice everyday.Larva thought coach was busy and would never watch his replays.Then larva upload replays ( only 2-3mins lenth) to the coach.Coachs watched these replays and decide wash larva away.When the new zerg-practicor come,larva was fired.Larva beg but no use.
Larva then prepare to interview as zerg-practicor of CJ.But he wear SKT1 uniform for the interview.CJ coach said to him:"are you crazy""you will do crazy things in the future and we donot want cover your ass and will not hire you"Then no company want larva.
Wow, very interesting stories. Can you also share some black history about Taiwan or Japan?
On December 06 2017 13:15 chuDr3t4 wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3lycIaNMfc I wonder if this pilot had threats of ban from rally organizations, sanctions against him and a bunch of angry fans ranting on the webs about it.
I won't take sides here. However, this is what happened in a title match, when one of the players decided to "bad manner":
Examples exist for both sides, the "good" BM and the "bad" BM.
On December 06 2017 19:09 FoR_BlueS wrote: (Moved post to this thread) To be honest, I am very impressed by Larva's social wisdom, not only is he a good BW player, he surely knows how to entertain his audience, and (in a neutral sense) how to manipulate information and public opinion to favour him. This post is not meant to undermine Larva's position, but is meant to analyse the entire incident and to address the elephant in the room that everyone seems to have forgotten: if a public humiliation (even if it was not meant to be a humiliation) deserves an apology, then it should deserve a public apology instead of a private one, otherwise it would strike the victim as insincere.
I tried asking a few Chinese players to dig for some info regarding what exactly happened. According to what they described, Legend said he "sat there, not knowing what to do for half an hour" after the match (let's assume the translations are correct, as of now I cannot confirm this), this appears to indicate that Larva did not apologise right after the match, probably not realising how his actions affected Legend, and that Legend likely participated in the tournament with a very serious mindset, otherwise he would just leave with a smile. Larva likely realised the severity of the issue later and decided to apologise to Legend, only to be met with refusal. From a moral perspective, a public humiliation deserves a public apology, I can hardly imagine how a private apology after a public humiliation could work out for Legend (assuming that he is TRULY offended, it appears that this is the case in Chinese culture), therefore Legend's reason for refusing Larva's private apology does not seem to be entirely unjustified. Legend probably thought that Larva's offer wasn't sincere enough, thus rejected it.
I think if it were a Westerner all of this wouldn't have happened due to different cultural customs and norms, but unfortunately this wasn't the case. Larva, likely accidentally or coincidentally, picked the wrong candidate for his shows. What's more unfortunate is that the Western audience has been easily manipulated by Larva's exploitation of the cultural gap between Western and Eastern cultures. Larva probably knew that in Western culture his behaviours would be less of a deal, especially in a show match, therefore Westerners would likely fail to realise how offensive his actions were in the eyes of Legend. Coupled with Legend's refusal of Larva's private apology, Larva has successfully painted himself as the honourable victim of a scandal, and portrayed Legend as a narrow-minded, egoistic loser who is too butthurt to act like a man. I make this deduction based on my experience as a fan of Eastern culture, so no, don't ask me which animes are good to watch otherwise you will spend the rest of your life infront of your computer...But you can start with Death Note.
Once again, I have to say I am really amazed by Larva's emotional intelligence and showmanship, I have certainly learned a lot from observing this incident. However until I can dig up more information from Legend's side, conclusions should not be given regarding this incident, but since I do not know Legend nor do I know anyone who does know him personally I guess we will never have an answer.
May the incident be settled by mature and responsible responses from both sides...
No offense but don't you think that you and others are taking this too seriously? I've seen you cite Kant, Rousseau, Plato, now we're talking about cultural norms. We're dealing with somebody clowning around in a showmatch of a video game. It's not exactly the scandal of the century. If getting beat by somebody playing with their foot in a video game is the worst thing that happened to Legend this year then maybe he should count his blessings and hope that 2018 is just as kind to him.
Non taken . I'm always a serious person, I think its just within my nature to analyse everything until everything becomes clear to me.
I donot think larva will do real apology to lx in privite not even in public.
I sponsored lots of game larva vs somepro. About two month ago,I sponsor larva vs someone,3/2,500balloons. I said to larva that I want to join game to and observer . Larva ignor what I said and start the game ,then he said 'sori" "sori" "I didnot see " .It looks like he didnot see my word.If true It is OK and I donot mind.But finally my friend (who speak korea language)told me that larva notice what I said ,larva talk in Korea language that he actually see what I said but still "ignor "me.
Here is the larva's black history (a korea friend told me this yesterday)^_^:
Larva use to smoke and had bad manner in SKT1 although he was not even a adult.When lose to someone (elder than him),he start to talk shit. Once he was drinking alcohol and eating pig's foot, and SKT1 coach find him.Larva got punished by coach and he should upload 40 replays of practice everyday.Larva thought coach was busy and would never watch his replays.Then larva upload replays ( only 2-3mins lenth) to the coach.Coachs watched these replays and decide wash larva away.When the new zerg-practicor come,larva was fired.Larva beg but no use.
Larva then prepare to interview as zerg-practicor of CJ.But he wear SKT1 uniform for the interview.CJ coach said to him:"are you crazy""you will do crazy things in the future and we donot want cover your ass and will not hire you"Then no company want larva.
Wow, very interesting stories. Can you also share some black history about Taiwan or Japan?
The black history is translated by my friend from korea forum. interesting .Not all korean like larva.
I mean Larva having a shitty personality is pretty well known to everybody in Korea. In fact, many progamers were revealed to have major personality flaws as they started streaming (biggest would be Sea). Not really surprising as these guys quit school(and every other social life) to go pro. Flash seems to be pretty clean though. SKT Practice Coach trOt personally said it on his stream and Larva's stream (Where Larva lied about it, then admitted). I don't think that should be used to judge Larva for this incident though. Also Larva's actions during his SKT Team house was literally over the line- to the point where he got kicked out. Not sure where BW Elitism + fanboism warped that into coddling that.
On December 07 2017 13:46 RCCar wrote: I mean Larva having a shitty personality is pretty well known to everybody in Korea. In fact, many progamers were revealed to have major personality flaws as they started streaming (biggest would be Sea). Not really surprising as these guys quit school(and every other social life) to go pro. Flash seems to be pretty clean though. SKT Practice Coach trOt personally said it on his stream and Larva's stream (Where Larva lied about it, then admitted). I don't think that should be used to judge Larva for this incident though. Also Larva's actions during his SKT Team house was literally over the line- to the point where he got kicked out. Not sure where BW Elitism + fanboism warped that into coddling that.
I agree with you. I am not going to judge someone. I just want to tell something western may not know . A few days ago,I thought larva was a encouragement guy who fight for his life.He has cancer but he still continue his stream.That's why I spend lots of balloons sponor his gaming . But this time he goes too far.I donot like it,as so many china sc fans donot like it.
Lx born in 1984 while larva 90's? How could possible Lx defeat larva. Lx is as the same age as Nada.Actually Lx's reputation in China may be as same as Nada in Korea. In the zotac interview I remenber Lx said twice that larva is strong and he can not defeat larva.Everyone know larva will beat Lx 3-0 even the china sc fans know it.But not in this way,not in foot way. So Lx shouldnot deserve the foot thing and the expence of his reputation.
Zotac now happy because they got lots of explosure.Zotac china seems had different opinion about the issue from zotac us.But as larva said,he gives a shit on ban, because how many time he will join zotac events next time? So foget about the ban thing.Let's talk about the foot action only.
In asia culture,the foot action definitely consider as a humiliate thing.I donot know much about western culture,maybe someone think it is funny.
Larva said he want to apology.But notice that the apology thing and lx deny happened a few hours later after the game ,after lx'weibo and china web media's report. Larva send the stuff to Lx:"If you donot feel good,I can apology" I wonder what kind apology it is.Is it a true apology? Lx deny the apology and I think it is a right deny.
On December 07 2017 13:46 RCCar wrote: I mean Larva having a shitty personality is pretty well known to everybody in Korea. In fact, many progamers were revealed to have major personality flaws as they started streaming (biggest would be Sea). Not really surprising as these guys quit school(and every other social life) to go pro. Flash seems to be pretty clean though. SKT Practice Coach trOt personally said it on his stream and Larva's stream (Where Larva lied about it, then admitted). I don't think that should be used to judge Larva for this incident though. Also Larva's actions during his SKT Team house was literally over the line- to the point where he got kicked out. Not sure where BW Elitism + fanboism warped that into coddling that.
I agree with you. I am not going to judge someone. I just want to tell something western may not know . A few days ago,I thought larva was a encouragement guy who fight for his life.He has cancer but he still continue his stream.That's why I spend lots of balloons sponor his gaming . But this time he goes too far.I donot like it,as so many china sc fans donot like it.
Lx born in 1984 while larva 90's? How could possible Lx defeat larva. Lx is as the same age as Nada.Actually Lx's reputation in China may be as same as Nada in Korea. In the zotac interview I remenber Lx said twice that larva is strong and he can not defeat larva.Everyone know larva will beat Lx 3-0 even the china sc fans know it.But not in this way,not in foot way. So Lx shouldnot deserve the foot thing and the expence of his reputation.
Zotac now happy because they got lots of explosure.Zotac china seems had different opinion about the issue from zotac us.But as larva said,he gives a shit on ban, because how many time he will join zotac events next time? So foget about the ban thing.Let's talk about the foot action only.
In asia culture,the foot action definitely consider as a humiliate thing.I donot know much about western culture,maybe someone think it is funny.
Larva said he want to apology.But notice that the apology thing and lx deny happened a few hours later after the game ,after lx'weibo and china web media's report. Larva send the stuff to Lx:"If you donot feel good,I can apology" I wonder what kind apology it is.Is it a true apology? Lx deny the apology and I think it is a right deny.
I didn't know Larva had cancer, I feel sorry for him. But seeing from the information you provided it indeed struck me that Larva's apology wasn't sincere, and from an East Asian cultural position Legend's refusal was indeed justified. I now agree that the key point here is the cultural gap, if people would stop assuming things and labelling people from their own cultural perspective things would've been a lot simpler.
Oh my god this is hilarious, and amazing for BW! People like me are coming back just because of the story Great display of showmanship And great for BW!
On December 07 2017 07:21 winson wrote: I personally don't like this behavior.
You will never see Germany soccer team intentionally give free penalty or play with a hand cuffed goal keeper against weaker opponent, they can play with young player or B team. Fedrer would not play with weaker hand or pretend sleeping when he play a showmatch with Fiji national champion.
Sure these things can draw attention and have more viewers, but it doesn't make it right. There is no rules against it but it doesn't mean there is no line. All handicaps if any should be given with both sides agree.
I don't want my favorite game with this kinds of shit, not my cup of tea. Larva went too far, I am glad he did get some punishment.
You see tennis charity matches with all sorts of crazy stuff happening Same with exhibition matches in football where retired players play
The fact is just some guys got entertained and make every reason whatever it is to defend their hero (or clown). www.youtube.com Neymar just did a rainbow trick, yes it was just a rainbow trick and all Athletic Bilbao player become very angry at him. After the match, Athletic coach Ernesto Valverde also claimed Neymar, who is coming towards the end of his second season with the Catalan giants, needs to learn that such gestures will not be tolerated in Spain. No one dared to say Neymar has right to do it even Enrique - Barca's coach. Do you get the point? In case you don't the point is you western nerds should try to learn some basics of your own culture first before saying anything about other cultures. And no what Larva did will not be accepted anywhere in the world by the public.
On December 07 2017 23:11 Qikz wrote: Wait. Larva has cancer?
Classicalyellow83 broke the news a year ago or so. But it was only "little cancer" and we should not be worried Larva said. I have not heard any more updates.
On December 07 2017 23:48 geod wrote: The fact is just some guys got entertained and make every reason whatever it is to defend their hero (or clown). www.youtube.com Neymar just did a rainbow trick, yes it was just a rainbow trick and all Athletic Bilbao player become very angry at him. After the match, Athletic coach Ernesto Valverde also claimed Neymar, who is coming towards the end of his second season with the Catalan giants, needs to learn that such gestures will not be tolerated in Spain. No one dared to say Neymar has right to do it even Enrique - Barca's coach. Do you get the point? In case you don't the point is you western nerds should try to learn some basics of your own culture first before saying anything about other cultures. And no what Larva did will not be accepted anywhere in the world by the public.
Substitute Larva with someone from North Korea Substitute Lx with someone from the US of A
I think, when it comes to Starcraft, it's easy to forget that sports and large international events are driven by money and politics. It's so obvious when it comes to Soccer, the olympics and hockey (remember the canada - russia series anyone?)... Anyway, I digress. Sports and politics have always been closely connected.
It's why you hear "USA USA USA" chants at The International anytime a team remotely close to being american appears on stage. If the opponents left the booth to dance around, or if they started playing with their feet, there would be outrage in the crowd and across the country... Especially if the offending team were from a rival nation and/or a nation with differing beliefs (Russia for instance).
On December 07 2017 23:48 geod wrote: The fact is just some guys got entertained and make every reason whatever it is to defend their hero (or clown). www.youtube.com Neymar just did a rainbow trick, yes it was just a rainbow trick and all Athletic Bilbao player become very angry at him. After the match, Athletic coach Ernesto Valverde also claimed Neymar, who is coming towards the end of his second season with the Catalan giants, needs to learn that such gestures will not be tolerated in Spain. No one dared to say Neymar has right to do it even Enrique - Barca's coach. Do you get the point? In case you don't the point is you western nerds should try to learn some basics of your own culture first before saying anything about other cultures. And no what Larva did will not be accepted anywhere in the world by the public.
Honestly, if people are so touchy that they can't handle something like that, that's their problem. They are the ones who need to grow up, if they can't have any fun or anything like that at all.
On December 07 2017 23:48 geod wrote: The fact is just some guys got entertained and make every reason whatever it is to defend their hero (or clown). www.youtube.com Neymar just did a rainbow trick, yes it was just a rainbow trick and all Athletic Bilbao player become very angry at him. After the match, Athletic coach Ernesto Valverde also claimed Neymar, who is coming towards the end of his second season with the Catalan giants, needs to learn that such gestures will not be tolerated in Spain. No one dared to say Neymar has right to do it even Enrique - Barca's coach. Do you get the point? In case you don't the point is you western nerds should try to learn some basics of your own culture first before saying anything about other cultures. And no what Larva did will not be accepted anywhere in the world by the public.
Honestly, if people are so touchy that they can't handle something like that, that's their problem. They are the ones who need to grow up, if they can't have any fun or anything like that at all.
Yes off course, they need to grow up and become more like Larva. I see grown ups behaving like Larva all time! (i hope you get my sarcasm)
On December 07 2017 23:48 geod wrote: The fact is just some guys got entertained and make every reason whatever it is to defend their hero (or clown). www.youtube.com Neymar just did a rainbow trick, yes it was just a rainbow trick and all Athletic Bilbao player become very angry at him. After the match, Athletic coach Ernesto Valverde also claimed Neymar, who is coming towards the end of his second season with the Catalan giants, needs to learn that such gestures will not be tolerated in Spain. No one dared to say Neymar has right to do it even Enrique - Barca's coach. Do you get the point? In case you don't the point is you western nerds should try to learn some basics of your own culture first before saying anything about other cultures. And no what Larva did will not be accepted anywhere in the world by the public.
Honestly, if people are so touchy that they can't handle something like that, that's their problem. They are the ones who need to grow up, if they can't have any fun or anything like that at all.
Yes off course, they need to grow up and become more like Larva. I see grown ups behaving like Larva all time! (i hope you get my sarcasm)
You missed the point pretty badly. Or maybe you ignored it on purpose, since it is really hard to miss. I don't know.
On December 07 2017 23:48 geod wrote: The fact is just some guys got entertained and make every reason whatever it is to defend their hero (or clown). www.youtube.com Neymar just did a rainbow trick, yes it was just a rainbow trick and all Athletic Bilbao player become very angry at him. After the match, Athletic coach Ernesto Valverde also claimed Neymar, who is coming towards the end of his second season with the Catalan giants, needs to learn that such gestures will not be tolerated in Spain. No one dared to say Neymar has right to do it even Enrique - Barca's coach. Do you get the point? In case you don't the point is you western nerds should try to learn some basics of your own culture first before saying anything about other cultures. And no what Larva did will not be accepted anywhere in the world by the public.
Honestly, if people are so touchy that they can't handle something like that, that's their problem. They are the ones who need to grow up, if they can't have any fun or anything like that at all.
Yes off course, they need to grow up and become more like Larva. I see grown ups behaving like Larva all time! (i hope you get my sarcasm)
You missed the point pretty badly. Or maybe you ignored it on purpose, since it is really hard to miss. I don't know.
People are different and cultures are different, some are more sensitive on issues like the one we are discussing in this thread, some are not. But people are clearly different, right? So what would you do in this life where people are different? Hurt other people and then dont care about their feelings and clear your self of any responsibility by blaming the offended for being immature? How is that fair? I could easily counter with saying that a real grown up is someone who are aware about this difference in sensitivity and developes strategies to prevent hurting other people. That is what creates a better society where we can exist toghether, despite our differences. Is that not what a grown up should care the most about? Please show me how i am missing the "point badly"
I guess i should just "grow up" and tell people to stop being sensitive whenever it suits me!
On December 07 2017 23:48 geod wrote: The fact is just some guys got entertained and make every reason whatever it is to defend their hero (or clown). www.youtube.com Neymar just did a rainbow trick, yes it was just a rainbow trick and all Athletic Bilbao player become very angry at him. After the match, Athletic coach Ernesto Valverde also claimed Neymar, who is coming towards the end of his second season with the Catalan giants, needs to learn that such gestures will not be tolerated in Spain. No one dared to say Neymar has right to do it even Enrique - Barca's coach. Do you get the point? In case you don't the point is you western nerds should try to learn some basics of your own culture first before saying anything about other cultures. And no what Larva did will not be accepted anywhere in the world by the public.
Honestly, if people are so touchy that they can't handle something like that, that's their problem. They are the ones who need to grow up, if they can't have any fun or anything like that at all.
Yes off course, they need to grow up and become more like Larva. I see grown ups behaving like Larva all time! (i hope you get my sarcasm)
You missed the point pretty badly. Or maybe you ignored it on purpose, since it is really hard to miss. I don't know.
People are different and cultures are different, some are more sensitive on issues like the one we are discussing in this thread, some are not. But people are clearly different, right? So what would you do in this life where people are different? Hurt other people and then dont care about their feelings and clear your self of any responsibility by blaming the offended for being immature? How is that fair? I could easily counter with saying that a real grown up is someone who are aware about this difference in sensitivity and developes strategies to prevent hurting other people. That is what creates a better society where we can exist toghether, despite our differences. Is that not what a grown up should care the most about? Please show me how i am missing the "point badly"
I guess i should just "grow up" and tell people to stop being sensitive whenever it suits me!
Where do you draw the line for this. The matter of fact is that pretty much anything you do or say could be offensive for someone. Wherever you draw it, it's probably pretty arbitrary just like the other way around (i bet noone would say we should just be able to insult each other all the time and people need to grow up there when they are offended)
Personally i tend more towards the belief of people who think that it's not my business to make sure that noone can be offended. Think about Hitchens whatever you want but i think this is still a great quote: "Those who are determined to be ‘offended’ will discover a provocation somewhere. We cannot possibly adjust enough to please the fanatics, and it is degrading to make the attempt"
With that being said, i can understand why Legend would be offended. What i don't understand is people being offended who share his nationality or like him otherwise. That's pretty absurd to me and them getting angry should have zero impact on anything.
On December 07 2017 23:48 geod wrote: The fact is just some guys got entertained and make every reason whatever it is to defend their hero (or clown). www.youtube.com Neymar just did a rainbow trick, yes it was just a rainbow trick and all Athletic Bilbao player become very angry at him. After the match, Athletic coach Ernesto Valverde also claimed Neymar, who is coming towards the end of his second season with the Catalan giants, needs to learn that such gestures will not be tolerated in Spain. No one dared to say Neymar has right to do it even Enrique - Barca's coach. Do you get the point? In case you don't the point is you western nerds should try to learn some basics of your own culture first before saying anything about other cultures. And no what Larva did will not be accepted anywhere in the world by the public.
Honestly, if people are so touchy that they can't handle something like that, that's their problem. They are the ones who need to grow up, if they can't have any fun or anything like that at all.
Yes off course, they need to grow up and become more like Larva. I see grown ups behaving like Larva all time! (i hope you get my sarcasm)
You missed the point pretty badly. Or maybe you ignored it on purpose, since it is really hard to miss. I don't know.
People are different and cultures are different, some are more sensitive on issues like the one we are discussing in this thread, some are not. But people are clearly different, right? So what would you do in this life where people are different? Hurt other people and then dont care about their feelings and clear your self of any responsibility by blaming the offended for being immature? How is that fair? I could easily counter with saying that a real grown up is someone who are aware about this difference in sensitivity and developes strategies to prevent hurting other people. That is what creates a better society where we can exist toghether, despite our differences. Is that not what a grown up should care the most about? Please show me how i am missing the "point badly"
I guess i should just "grow up" and tell people to stop being sensitive whenever it suits me!
Yes, people are different. Some differences I may not like, but I don't have a problem with them. Pushing someone over for doing a fancy trick, or getting pissed off because someone made some show during a show match in a relaxed atmosphere - these are things that are quite frankly below par.
And seemingly it's not so much about being condescending. As Lx states, he didn't have a problem with the nuke and such. There was just some magical line between what you do inside the game and outside of it. So it's seemingly not even about being condescending or hurtful.
His rethoric was also very, very strong. He smiled and shook hands, and in accordance with what he said about the nukes and such, he meant it. It seems as though it wasn't until he figured out about the foot and sleeping that he got mad. If it was hurtful, there are better ways of handling it. I'm not going to state that you're a child for finding it embarassing or even hurtful. But the way one acts on it is what I find defining to a character - something I find goes beyond culture.
Putting your foot on the keyboard isn't something grown-ups do. But it's what a showman does during a show. Calling someone a retarded monkey (I am however taking that phrase with a pinch of salt, in case it's poorly translated) isn't how a grown person handles anger. But instead, contacting the person who's done the hurting and then talk it out. Needing some time to calm down and such is fine. Heck, even having a blowout can be accepted, so long as you fix it in the aftermath. But I have yet to see any of it.
Culture really has very little to do with it. What hurts you isn't the core of the case. It's how you handle being hurt. That honestly has more to do with maturity, than any cultural differences.
I don't know that it's so much about being offended as it is about expectations of who would turn off the broadcast when they see a man putting his bare foot on the equipment. If people turn off the broadcast, or simply decide not to tune in for future, then good luck boosting e-sports into mainstream.
Even if a large part of it is about the offensive nature, the point about drawing in a mainstream crowd is still highly relevant.
Keep in mind that the current atmosphere has positioned e-sports in the same conversation as the olympics.
Everyone saw the same thing. One portion of the population felt pain watching someone being humiliated in front of a large audience. Another portion didn't feel anything, and maybe enjoyed it. I think most arguments about ethics etc, are just ways to justify and explain that initial gut reaction. It's as if half the population can't smell and insisted the other half stop complaining about a foul odor.
Why do you assume he was trying to humiliate Legend? Some people just try to be funny and misfire And judging by his stream Larva is just that - an entertainer/comedian and that's his job
On December 08 2017 06:03 LemOn wrote: Why do you assume he was trying to humiliate Legend? Some people just try to be funny and misfire And judging by his stream Larva is just that - an entertainer/comedian and that's his job
Indeed. If you are in the comedy/entertainment business you will get unexpected result from some perspectives on a regular basis. And streamers are just that.
On December 07 2017 23:48 geod wrote: The fact is just some guys got entertained and make every reason whatever it is to defend their hero (or clown). www.youtube.com Neymar just did a rainbow trick, yes it was just a rainbow trick and all Athletic Bilbao player become very angry at him. After the match, Athletic coach Ernesto Valverde also claimed Neymar, who is coming towards the end of his second season with the Catalan giants, needs to learn that such gestures will not be tolerated in Spain. No one dared to say Neymar has right to do it even Enrique - Barca's coach. Do you get the point? In case you don't the point is you western nerds should try to learn some basics of your own culture first before saying anything about other cultures. And no what Larva did will not be accepted anywhere in the world by the public.
Honestly, if people are so touchy that they can't handle something like that, that's their problem. They are the ones who need to grow up, if they can't have any fun or anything like that at all.
Yes off course, they need to grow up and become more like Larva. I see grown ups behaving like Larva all time! (i hope you get my sarcasm)
You missed the point pretty badly. Or maybe you ignored it on purpose, since it is really hard to miss. I don't know.
People are different and cultures are different, some are more sensitive on issues like the one we are discussing in this thread, some are not. But people are clearly different, right? So what would you do in this life where people are different? Hurt other people and then dont care about their feelings and clear your self of any responsibility by blaming the offended for being immature? How is that fair? I could easily counter with saying that a real grown up is someone who are aware about this difference in sensitivity and developes strategies to prevent hurting other people. That is what creates a better society where we can exist toghether, despite our differences. Is that not what a grown up should care the most about? Please show me how i am missing the "point badly"
I guess i should just "grow up" and tell people to stop being sensitive whenever it suits me!
Where do you draw the line for this. The matter of fact is that pretty much anything you do or say could be offensive for someone. Wherever you draw it, it's probably pretty arbitrary just like the other way around (i bet noone would say we should just be able to insult each other all the time and people need to grow up there when they are offended)
Personally i tend more towards the belief of people who think that it's not my business to make sure that noone can be offended. Think about Hitchens whatever you want but i think this is still a great quote: "Those who are determined to be ‘offended’ will discover a provocation somewhere. We cannot possibly adjust enough to please the fanatics, and it is degrading to make the attempt"
With that being said, i can understand why Legend would be offended. What i don't understand is people being offended who share his nationality or like him otherwise. That's pretty absurd to me and them getting angry should have zero impact on anything.
I dont actually mean that people being offended in general always have a good enough reason to be so. At least not in the sense of making accusations on the intent of the person offending them. Thats why i said i could just as easily frame the problem from the complete oppostie corner and still have my argument be as logical sound as the people blaming the ones offended for not being mature enough. And there is a lot of people saying just that in this thread about Lx and others who defend him. And i am kind of tired of people blaming the ones offended for being too sensitive. It can work as a tactic that eventually keeps pushing the borders for what is acceptable, because to resist is to automatically be put in the category of someone who is weak or immature
I have already made myself pretty clear about what i think about the whole matter in several comments some pages back in this thread. But thank you for your reasonable response.
On December 08 2017 07:35 LemOn wrote: Indeed. If you are in the comedy/entertainment business you will get unexpected result from some perspectives on a regular basis. And streamers are just that.
Right, but if you are into comedy and you do a bunch of racial jokes for an activist crowd, you're an idiot.
You tailor comedy to your audience - and if you get big enough that you have your own show you do whatever you want.
I'm of the opinion that Larva crossed a line, but the viewership he got was worth it from a non-chinese perspective.
i can see some points and premises to where i could start an discussion with you, where i could offer counter-arguments. But am tired of this discussion as i have already posted several comments and participated in a longer discussion some pages back where i have.already touched upon these same complex concepts. Sorry, but i just cannot spend more time on this. No hard feelings i hope.
On December 08 2017 08:47 tanngard wrote: Incomplete..ReV,
i can see some points and premises to where i could start an discussion with you, where i could offer counter-arguments. But am tired of this discussion as i have already posted several comments and participated in a longer discussion some pages back where i have.already touched upon these same complex concepts. Sorry, but i just cannot spend more time on this. No hard feelings i hope.
“An entire sea of water can’t sink a ship unless it gets inside the ship. Similarly, the negativity of the world can’t put you down unless you allow it to get inside you.”
Legend took a bunch of photos of the players he was going to play at this event, posted them in his weibo account, called them losers and said he will own all of them. This was two days before he ranted at Larva because of the latter's 'insults' at the event. You ask me, I'll say that Legend deserved it 100% for karmic retribution.
It's like pot calling the kettle black, except Legend made a big scene and the CN SJWs and news outlets were eager to lap all his nonsense up.
And unlike Larva who wrote about apologizing to Legend, I don't see the latter apologizing to anyone, including players and fans he insulted.
It's hard to take CN seriously when so many of them are two-faced. I really don't get why they keep doing this when it just hurts their reputation.
It's not clear to me exactly why Legend reacted the way he did, but it seems pretty clear that Larva didn't mean to disrespect Lx (or if he did, his followup seems like it was well intentioned). Even though Lx shittalked the foreigners on his Chinese weibo, foot play is probably a whole different level, and you have to remember that this happened to Lx on a public tournament.
(If Larva foot-played vs me in a private 1v1, that would be awesome. If Larva foot-played vs me on live television in front of all my fellow countrymen, I'm not sure how I'd feel about that :D. It might feel a little too much like someone else having a joke at my expense.)
It's plausible to me that Lx was a reasonable guy who flew all the way to the event and felt like he got really disrespected. It's also plausible to me that Lx is a thin-skinned guy who can dish it out but can't take it in. Honestly, I don't think we have the information to know. My guess is that he probably felt like he lost face (丟臉) and in Chinese culture, face is everything. This is just a guess though. Imo that aspect of Chinese culture ruins a lot of good things, but that's something beyond the scope of this scandal.
Fwiw I really, really enjoyed Larva's play and found it hilarious. It's one of those things that became legend (BA DUM CHHH) w/ my friends overnight. It makes sense that Lx felt disrespected, but like a jerk I'm glad it happened :D. I do feel a little bad for Legend, not for the foot incident, but since Larva really just dished down the hurt all series long :O
On December 09 2017 16:04 predai wrote: What you guys don't know.
Legend took a bunch of photos of the players he was going to play at this event, posted them in his weibo account, called them losers and said he will own all of them. This was two days before he ranted at Larva because of the latter's 'insults' at the event. You ask me, I'll say that Legend deserved it 100% for karmic retribution.
It's like pot calling the kettle black, except Legend made a big scene and the CN SJWs and news outlets were eager to lap all his nonsense up.
And unlike Larva who wrote about apologizing to Legend, I don't see the latter apologizing to anyone, including players and fans he insulted.
It's hard to take CN seriously when so many of them are two-faced. I really don't get why they keep doing this when it just hurts their reputation.
Hahahaha It's all becoming pretty clear That they were both in on it as it was a showmatch The Organizers too And they are playing people like fiddle for publicity
And it worked! Broodwar's getting the most attention in years, this was even reposted on the fabled Liquidpoker and brought me here!
On December 09 2017 16:04 predai wrote: What you guys don't know.
Legend took a bunch of photos of the players he was going to play at this event, posted them in his weibo account, called them losers and said he will own all of them. This was two days before he ranted at Larva because of the latter's 'insults' at the event. You ask me, I'll say that Legend deserved it 100% for karmic retribution.
It's like pot calling the kettle black, except Legend made a big scene and the CN SJWs and news outlets were eager to lap all his nonsense up.
And unlike Larva who wrote about apologizing to Legend, I don't see the latter apologizing to anyone, including players and fans he insulted.
It's hard to take CN seriously when so many of them are two-faced. I really don't get why they keep doing this when it just hurts their reputation.
If you insist on stalking Legend's social media account, know that even earlier he posted about his feelings going into the event, that his passion had died, and this is probably his last game and a nostalgia trip to be treasured for him. A far cry from the immature angle you are trying to make.
Following that was his post supposedly saying that they are "losers". What was the actual word he used? "Noobs", which literally everyone in the comments interpreted as joking before it got hijacked after the match, funny how you portrayed it as some kind of evidence he deserved it.
After the game, he called out Larva for his actions, which I trust everyone to have read the more accurate translation, instead of that extremely-worded "mentally-ill" version.
I wonder why you left out his most recent post, if you are so eager to inform everyone of his activities. To summarize the response which was about player behaviour, he said that he was honoured to have been invited. He aimed to beat Draco and get second place, as he had no hopes of beating Larva, and defeat was something he anticipated, this was corroborated by an interview. He also said he didn't mind getting nuked because it was a difference in strength, and didn't mind in-game showboating. So he made his adequate preparations, but did not expect to get such disrespect from Larva during the match. It was baseless for others to say that it was acceptable behaviour for a showmatch, because he was the one actually on the receiving end and disagreed. He pointed out that a pro would also feel similar (they did comment their sentiments). And even if it was just a show, he was not notified, nor asked for his consent. Legend went on to say that it was the pros' collective efforts that SC came to have recognition, and that he also knew of Larva's hard work. However he asked why didn't Larva learn from the professionalism of his SKT predecessors like BoxeR and GoRush. Legend namedropped other polite players as well and asked where did KeSPA and common manners go. As a representative of his country Larva brought shame to the Korean e-sports scene. Legend thought highly of SC and said that Larva was the only one who could act so shamefully in the game's 20 year history, which is why he could not accept that apology of his. And if using feet really is a way of showing skill, then it's only something he can accept if he won playing with his feet the entire time.
It's hard not to think of you as a troll, and it's no surprise that CN's reputation is so bad when people like you come to tar it with misleading information.
On December 09 2017 16:04 predai wrote: What you guys don't know.
Legend took a bunch of photos of the players he was going to play at this event, posted them in his weibo account, called them losers and said he will own all of them. This was two days before he ranted at Larva because of the latter's 'insults' at the event. You ask me, I'll say that Legend deserved it 100% for karmic retribution.
It's like pot calling the kettle black, except Legend made a big scene and the CN SJWs and news outlets were eager to lap all his nonsense up.
And unlike Larva who wrote about apologizing to Legend, I don't see the latter apologizing to anyone, including players and fans he insulted.
It's hard to take CN seriously when so many of them are two-faced. I really don't get why they keep doing this when it just hurts their reputation.
If you insist on stalking Legend's social media account, know that even earlier he posted about his feelings going into the event, that his passion had died, and this is probably his last game and a nostalgia trip to be treasured for him. A far cry from the immature angle you are trying to make.
Following that was his post supposedly saying that they are "losers". What was the actual word he used? "Noobs", which literally everyone in the comments interpreted as joking before it got hijacked after the match, funny how you portrayed it as some kind of evidence he deserved it.
After the game, he called out Larva for his actions, which I trust everyone to have read the more accurate translation, instead of that extremely-worded "mentally-ill" version.
I wonder why you left out his most recent post, if you are so eager to inform everyone of his activities. To summarize the response which was about player behaviour, he said that he was honoured to have been invited. He aimed to beat Draco and get second place, as he had no hopes of beating Larva, and defeat was something he anticipated, this was corroborated by an interview. He also said he didn't mind getting nuked because it was a difference in strength, and didn't mind in-game showboating. So he made his adequate preparations, but did not expect to get such disrespect from Larva during the match. It was baseless for others to say that it was acceptable behaviour for a showmatch, because he was the one actually on the receiving end and disagreed. He pointed out that a pro would also feel similar (they did comment their sentiments). And even if it was just a show, he was not notified, nor asked for his consent. Legend went on to say that it was the pros' collective efforts that SC came to have recognition, and that he also knew of Larva's hard work. However he asked why didn't Larva learn from the professionalism of his SKT predecessors like BoxeR and GoRush. Legend namedropped other polite players as well and asked where did KeSPA and common manners go. As a representative of his country Larva brought shame to the Korean e-sports scene. Legend thought highly of SC and said that Larva was the only one who could act so shamefully in the game's 20 year history, which is why he could not accept that apology of his. And if using feet really is a way of showing skill, then it's only something he can accept if he won playing with his feet the entire time.
It's hard not to think of you as a troll, and it's no surprise that CN's reputation is so bad when people like you come to tar it with misleading information.
TL;DR. It's literally hard to take serious ppl with 1 post on their fresh chinese account trying to defend and make things look opposite. Calm your tits CN and admit you got what you deserved.
On December 09 2017 16:04 predai wrote: What you guys don't know.
Legend took a bunch of photos of the players he was going to play at this event, posted them in his weibo account, called them losers and said he will own all of them. This was two days before he ranted at Larva because of the latter's 'insults' at the event. You ask me, I'll say that Legend deserved it 100% for karmic retribution.
It's like pot calling the kettle black, except Legend made a big scene and the CN SJWs and news outlets were eager to lap all his nonsense up.
And unlike Larva who wrote about apologizing to Legend, I don't see the latter apologizing to anyone, including players and fans he insulted.
It's hard to take CN seriously when so many of them are two-faced. I really don't get why they keep doing this when it just hurts their reputation.
If you insist on stalking Legend's social media account, know that even earlier he posted about his feelings going into the event, that his passion had died, and this is probably his last game and a nostalgia trip to be treasured for him. A far cry from the immature angle you are trying to make.
Following that was his post supposedly saying that they are "losers". What was the actual word he used? "Noobs", which literally everyone in the comments interpreted as joking before it got hijacked after the match, funny how you portrayed it as some kind of evidence he deserved it.
After the game, he called out Larva for his actions, which I trust everyone to have read the more accurate translation, instead of that extremely-worded "mentally-ill" version.
I wonder why you left out his most recent post, if you are so eager to inform everyone of his activities. To summarize the response which was about player behaviour, he said that he was honoured to have been invited. He aimed to beat Draco and get second place, as he had no hopes of beating Larva, and defeat was something he anticipated, this was corroborated by an interview. He also said he didn't mind getting nuked because it was a difference in strength, and didn't mind in-game showboating. So he made his adequate preparations, but did not expect to get such disrespect from Larva during the match. It was baseless for others to say that it was acceptable behaviour for a showmatch, because he was the one actually on the receiving end and disagreed. He pointed out that a pro would also feel similar (they did comment their sentiments). And even if it was just a show, he was not notified, nor asked for his consent. Legend went on to say that it was the pros' collective efforts that SC came to have recognition, and that he also knew of Larva's hard work. However he asked why didn't Larva learn from the professionalism of his SKT predecessors like BoxeR and GoRush. Legend namedropped other polite players as well and asked where did KeSPA and common manners go. As a representative of his country Larva brought shame to the Korean e-sports scene. Legend thought highly of SC and said that Larva was the only one who could act so shamefully in the game's 20 year history, which is why he could not accept that apology of his. And if using feet really is a way of showing skill, then it's only something he can accept if he won playing with his feet the entire time.
It's hard not to think of you as a troll, and it's no surprise that CN's reputation is so bad when people like you come to tar it with misleading information.
First of all, I'm Chinese. I can read and write the Chinese language. I also happen to translate the language frequently into English.
I believe it's a universal thing in every country, but I have worked with bad eggs and good companies before, so I hope you would understand if I say 'spare me the two-faced hypocrisy ****'.
Now, I'm not sure if there's a change in lingo when it comes to gaming terms, but perhaps I did miss the few points you're talking about. So let me analyze it again to make up for my possible mistakes.
1) 一群草鸡 等我收割 - As quoted from Lx
"A bunch of 'Losers', are waiting for me to reap them."
Maybe you can call the term 'noobs' or whatnot (I completely disagree since the Chinese definition I know of means cowardly and weak, but sure, let's take your word for it since I don't know the slang aspect of it.). The general meaning of it is *derogatory* in nature. It's an insult. However you spin it, in front of my layman eyes from a non-starcraft stream watcher, he's mocking the players who went to the events.
I can understand the sentiments of wanting to support your countryman, but let me check if your claim about 'literally everyone in the comments interpreted it as joking' is true.
Flandre_f0rest：buyaoyiweiniyingle 12月2日 09:21
叶凌了了：6666666666 12月2日 08:15
扶风Melon：加油，老乡 12月2日 06:13
These are the three general consensus that I found from the (relatively few) comments from the two days before the insult incident.
buyaoyiweiniyingle - Don't assume that you have won. 6666666666 - According to my knowledge of this lingo, it means, "Very good/did wonderful", but that could take on a different sarcastic meaning at times, like "MAN, the way how you fed is VERY GOOD". I'm not sure if the commenter is either warning Lx with puns or not with this comment. 加油 - Good luck.
Nowhere did I see 'everyone' interpret as him joking.
2) Let's also see if the comments later on describe him as joking. I mean if Lx is joking, then there wouldn't be people getting upset over his loss to Larva right?
传送时间点：然后就给输了 12月5日 15:15
李粑粑哟LT：以这种心态去比赛，难怪别人嘲讽你，自己技不如人 12月5日 15:17
然后就给输了 - And so you lost. 以这种心态去比赛，难怪别人嘲讽你，自己技不如人 - Going to a tournament with this kind of mindset, it's no wonder that others are mocking you, your skills are not as good as others. (this had 65 upvotes, compared to the 1-5 upvotes from the 'literally everyone was treating it as a joke' reply that you supposedly had).
3) "I trust everyone to have read the more accurate translation, instead of that extremely-worded "mentally-ill" version."
I'm a pretty savage person and maybe it's kind of similar to CN SJW-level-bad. As I mentioned earlier, I'm a translator of sorts. When Lx fired off his post on weibo, he was absolutely furious. When I translated his post, I took into account about his mentality and tone at that point.
Now, there's obviously no way that I can intepret what exactly was on his mind, so I may be wrong and his 'tone' was as mild as that 'mentally-ill' version. Maybe.
But my suspicion is that he wants to lash out at Larva and his fans for his perceived insult with the strongest offensively-toned litany that he had. Nothing more, nothing less.
So that's how I translated it in my mind.
4) Blah blah, recent post about his dignity.
Look, it's impossible for me to say he has the right to judge Larva at all. When I first saw that stunt about calling the other noobs/losers, I thought it was just a publicity move that was not unlike Larva. Then he ranted about Larva next.
If he had maintained an attitude that's beyond reproach on his weibo account with the utmost respect for the other players, I would think that he has the highest morals possible and that dignity should not be affronted. This recent post of his, well, I simply perceive it as nothing but an excuse to pad up his integrity to show he's in the right.
It's just too hard to separate his actions with the bad companies that I worked with. The latter does the two-faced thing, you know.
Anyways. Low post count = troll?
Heh. I can throw back the same accusation back at you.
Well hello there, I'm Canadian. I happen to know of a search engine named Baidu.
On December 10 2017 18:31 predai wrote: 1) 一群草鸡 等我收割 - As quoted from Lx
"A bunch of 'Losers', are waiting for me to reap them."
Maybe you can call the term 'noobs' or whatnot (I completely disagree since the Chinese definition I know of means cowardly and weak, but sure, let's take your word for it since I don't know the slang aspect of it.). The general meaning of it is *degatory* in nature. It's an insult. However you spin it, in front of my layman eyes from a non-starcraft stream watcher, he's mocking the players who went to the events.
You don't even have to be a SC stream watcher to know what the term means. The term is a synonym to 菜鸟, which again, means noob. The fact that you don't even know what that means raises questions of where exactly you're getting your Chinese definitions from.
On December 10 2017 18:31 predai wrote: buyaoyiweiniyingle - Don't assume that you have won. 6666666666 - According to my knowledge of this lingo, it means, "Very good/did wonderful", but that could take on a different sarcastic meaning at times, like "MAN, the way how you fed is VERY GOOD". I'm not sure if the commenter is either warning Lx with puns or not with this comment. 加油 - Good luck.
Nowhere did I see 'everyone' interpret as him joking.
buyaoyiweiniyingle - Being a layman, it is natural that you don't understand where the joke is. It's a reference to an incident before where Legend got completely destroyed by another player just as he thought he was going to win. The comment is referencing that he is going to lose again and not taking his post seriously.
6666666666 - It means very skilled, used in the sarcastic sense, indicating that the comment thinks he's being funny.
Good luck - a cursory post. Are people not even allowed to offer encouragement these days?
Of course everyone thought he was joking, who are you kidding with your inaccurate grasp of gaming lingo?
On December 10 2017 18:31 predai wrote: 2) Let's also see if the comments later on describe him as joking. I mean if Lx is joking, then there wouldn't be people getting upset over his loss to Larva right?
传送时间点：然后就给输了 12月5日 15:15
李粑粑哟LT：以这种心态去比赛，难怪别人嘲讽你，自己技不如人 12月5日 15:17
You like to raise examples, but leaving out the ones describing him as joking is again, a low move. But then again, using a post by someone unfamiliar with the context is just like you, who seem to be unfamiliar with the Chinese language. Guess you intentionally left out the posts where the poster that came to insult him for losing apologized after learning what actually went down. And what will people following the later links actually see? A bunch of commenters berating Larva for his lack of manners, which was the main issue.
On December 10 2017 18:31 predai wrote: But my suspicion is that he wants to lash out at Larva and his fans for his perceived insult with the strongest offensively-toned litany that he had. Nothing more, nothing less.
My suspicion is that you want to paint him in a bad light by misinterpreting what he wrote as greatly offensive, although it's nowhere near that. He said idiot, clown, and trash. Now, here are some actually offensive things to say, cnm, nmsl, rabid dog, elementary schooler, glass heart, sb, and some more creative ones I've heard of from Chinese friends. The fact that he chose not to use them demonstrates his decency, nothing more, nothing less.
On December 10 2017 18:31 predai wrote: Look, it's impossible for me to say he has the right to judge Larva at all. When I first saw that stunt about calling the other noobs/losers, I thought it was just a publicity move that was not unlike Larva. Then he ranted about Larva next.
So Legend has no right saying this as a retired pro, commenting about the e-sports scene and another player? Does that mean all the linked comments of other players have no value? And you? You've evidently judged Legend after all, despite having much less credibility. You're also saying that you didn't know about SC, but knew about Larva, and couldn't accept Legend's "rant." Thanks for putting your bias out there. I came from r/videos.
On December 10 2017 18:31 predai wrote: If he had maintained an attitude that's beyond reproach on his weibo account with the utmost respect for the other players, I would think that he has the highest morals possible and that dignity should not be affronted. This recent post of his, well, I simply perceive it as nothing but an excuse to pad up his integrity to show he's in the right.
Such logic. He makes a civilized post going into the game you ignore it. He then makes a joking post and you say it's grounds for retribution and backs that up with inaccurate translations. He calls out Larva for his actions you say it's insulting. He adds a detailed response you discount that as an excuse. Now you want him to be polite the entire time, instead of the vast majority of the time? How about I ask you to not troll the entire time, instead of the the majority of the time, after all, how would you feel with your own words when you get banned with your trolling? "If predai had maintained an attitude that's beyond reproach on TL by not deceiving other posters, I would think that he has the highest morals possible and that his banning was wrong. This recent post of predai, well, I simply perceive as nothing but even more trolling."
On December 10 2017 18:31 predai wrote: It's just too hard to separate his actions with the bad companies that I worked with. The latter does the two-faced thing, you know.
"It's just too hard to separate Larva's actions with the bad people that I worked with. The latter does the disrespectful thing, you know."
On December 10 2017 18:31 predai wrote: Anyways. Low post count = troll?
Misrepresenting information for all to see now that there is no language barrier. Troll indeed.
First of all, I had already admitted that I don't know what 草鸡 means, but the intent was derogatory in nature. That's it. I'm not sure why you would want to distract anyone about my unfamiliarity with internet slangs. I already stated I'm taking your internet savvy lingo for the right one. And just in case you want to know where I got the definition, see number 2
草鸡 cǎojī/
1. 名词 母鸡。 2. 形容词 口语 比喻软弱怯懦、畏缩不前。 「一来真的，他就 草鸡了」
Secondly, I'm just responding to your BS claims that "everyone was literally seeing him as joking" in his post. You said literally everyone, but that's hardly true, unless for some reason that 60 + upvotes on calling up his BS is fake. You're the one twisting the facts to paint Lx in a good light by making him seem like he was joking, and if it's true that this particular poster came to apologize to him, that's even worse. Because he becomes the very SJW that supports BS (and just for the others, I couldn't find evidence of that apology from the poster with 65 upvotes, not sure if karej_says is lying again).
If Larva insulted Lx, it's suddenly okay for Lx to insult other players (who did it in the first place)? Come on.....
Thirdly, do you remember that I said the pot calling the kettle black? 半斤八两, maybe I should use this as well. When you have someone who's doing the same thing as Larva on his weibo account, how do you expect me to say he has the right to be fair in this matter? There's no power to convince people that he's beyond reproach.
Also, nowhere did I support Larva. He did his **** and Lx did his ****. I simply saw their actions as a way to cater to their fans. However, I see Larva as the better person because he was willing to apologize for his action. If Lx stated in his most recent post that he shouldn't have use 一群草鸡 等我收割, and apologize for his actions, he would have credibility and I would start thinking about his criticism on Larva.
It suddenly became the part where he respects the other people and had no chance of winning completely contradicts what he wrote earlier. What do you expect me to think of this sudden change? It looks like he's just giving excuses to frame a narrative.
Fourth, that ridiculous claim about trolling. What's the similarity between Person A who murders one person, and Person B who murders many people. They are both murderers. No matter how "small" Lx's insult was, the fact doesn't change that he called other players noobs or whatever.
You're the troll who twisting Lx words into something positive and gave lies on how his supporters treated it as a literal joke.
Here's more commenters about that "literal joke lie" so that he karej_says can't escape from his pretense, and wow, I was really wrong about how it was a one-sided support for Lx, turns out the majority of the people there called out on his **** on his insult post against other players.
1) The grass chicken (noob/loser) has used its claws and has (him) on the ground rubbing him in the dirt 2) Embarrassing yourself in front of others, you deserve to be stepped on with a foot by another person. 3) I saw that grass chicken in that last photo (referring to Larva). 4) You took photos of other players sneakily. You're no different from that korean player. I can treat your post as trash talk, but it's too much by adding on the photos. And when you lost you claimed that victory or defeat doesn't matter since it's all for entertainment.
It's a different matter for his rant on Larva because the SJW were crawling all over the posts, and I thought it was the same for his other insulting post. I was wrong
1) What is there to pick a bone with against a korean loser streamer who relies on winning specific events? You're formerly a champion, a progamer, and on the opposite side is a second-rate streamer who relies on grinding events for a salary. You must understand that this "loser during those years" finally waited till everyone isn't playing starcraft 1 anymore, and it's a normal thing that he's now jumping out into the spotlight (negative tone). 2) Korean education only taught them to recognize RMB, and they don't know what's manners. 3) *insert a curse*, this loser obviously has p*ss-poor manners, Lx bro don't get angry.
I'm tired of Karej_says in just 2 posts. His lies are like a repeat of the dealings I had with bad companies. Since he wanted me to post the commenters on the "main issue on Larva", here are some of the pro-Lx comments.
I don't think I address everything Karej_says had in his post, but what I feel:
Both Larva and Lx did the same kind of insulting nonsense. Is it a very big thing to me? No.
I'm completely neutral on that issue since it feels like rivalry-speak, and really, it doesn't concern me.
But Lx talking about respect and showmanship when he insulted others on weibo, and SJW flocking to his defense? I have a serious issue with that. Why?
The outcome is this: A CN player is free to insult other players without getting punished, and when the reverse happens where someone insults a CN player, Zotac CN bans the latter because of the SJW's pressure. Not only that, Lx got away without getting punished for his actions
How do you expect CN to have any credibility with the other countries after that? I'm mad about this part.
PS: This is my last post. I'm not going to reply any further since I have wrote my piece on this matter.
Yeah, Id like to do some note by feet during my Math class. NO ONE CANT scold me for that. Cause his class is SO BORING. And I would like to talk to YOU with my @ss, cause YOU looks like a SHIT. Is that illegal? No! Then I am good.
On December 11 2017 12:39 predai wrote: Secondly, I'm just responding to your BS claims that "everyone was literally seeing him as joking" in his post. You said literally everyone, but that's hardly true, unless for some reason that 60 + upvotes on calling up his BS is fake. You're the one twisting the facts to paint Lx in a good light by making him seem like he was joking, and if it's true that this particular poster came to apologize to him, that's even worse. Because he becomes the very SJW that supports BS (and just for the others, I couldn't find evidence of that apology from the poster with 65 upvotes, not sure if karej_says is lying again).
On December 11 2017 12:39 predai wrote: Thirdly, do you remember that I said the pot calling the kettle black? 半斤八两, maybe I should use this as well. When you have someone who's doing the same thing as Larva on his weibo account, how do you expect me to say he has the right to be fair in this matter? There's no power to convince people that he's beyond reproach.
On December 11 2017 12:39 predai wrote: Here's more commenters about that "literal joke lie" so that he karej_says can't escape from his pretense, and wow, I was really wrong about how it was a one-sided support for Lx, turns out the majority of the people there called out on his **** on his insult post against other players.
Misrepresenting existing information repeatedly throughout your entire post, thanks for verifying your status as a troll once again. At this point, I'm thinking that you're not only inadequate at Chinese (given the actual meaning of that Chinese phrase and the numerous other occasions you dished out some translation only to get 打脸), you are also lacking in English comprehension. Your frequent injections of bias while using cherry-picked and contextless evidence isn't helping either.
On December 11 2017 12:39 predai wrote: Also, nowhere did I support Larva. He did his **** and Lx did his ****. I simply saw their actions as a way to cater to their fans. However, I see Larva as the better person because he was willing to apologize for his action. If Lx stated in his most recent post that he shouldn't have use 一群草鸡 等我收割, and apologize for his actions, he would have credibility and I would start thinking about his criticism on Larva.
That's some rich hypocrisy, go read what you wrote again, I'll wait.
On December 11 2017 12:39 predai wrote: It suddenly became the part where he respects the other people and had no chance of winning completely contradicts what he wrote earlier. What do you expect me to think of this sudden change? It looks like he's just giving excuses to frame a narrative.
Since you admitted that you actually had no idea what the Chinese you were "translating" actually meant, it is honestly hilarious that you think your argument built on top of that "translation" is still valid. It's also as if you haven't even bothered to educate yourself about the competition beyond "oooh SJWs" nor read what I wrote, where he lost to get second place, simply just giving excuses to justify and keep pushing your narrative.
On December 11 2017 12:39 predai wrote: If Larva insulted Lx, it's suddenly okay for Lx to insult other players (who did it in the first place)? Come on.....
You put yourself out there first claiming that you're so savage after all, then failing to distinguish true savagery from Legend's mild statement. Now you're backpedalling? Come on......
On December 11 2017 12:39 predai wrote: Fourth, that ridiculous claim about trolling. What's the similarity between Person A who murders one person, and Person B who murders many people. They are both murderers. No matter how "small" Lx's insult was, the fact doesn't change that he called other players noobs or whatever.
You're the troll who twisting Lx words into something positive and gave lies on how his supporters treated it as a literal joke.
I consider predai a troll because for giving misleading information time and again (even backing that up with even more misinformation, a true novelty), while I am correcting the record and demonstrating my ethos by providing links, actionable examples, and doing so without bias for "bad companies"? I must be a troll for calling predai a troll then, because now it seems like they are a straight-up liar.
Let's see, predai gave a translation of Legend's Weibo, presenting it as fact when it was in fact subjective. That wrongful translation is called out, and then predai tries to claim credibility with knowledge of Chinese, translating cherry-picked comments which are again wrong, trying to claim that Legend was insulting due to predai's experience with insults which are also wrong, and then downplaying Legend's credibility, all with a healthy dose of hypocrisy and bias. When faced with a reply, predai proceeds to call BS, backpedal, give strawmen, use more inaccurate Chinese, and get selective amnesia, with what I'd say would be an overdose of hypocrisy, bias, and incredibly, namecalling this time around. It's great that predai chose to self-moderate, as misinformation and disrespect has no place on a discussion thread.
Since I primarily made an account for Legend's first and latest comments, it is good to see that someone has given it a full-length and - what I gleaned from my friends - faithful translation on the new thread. It is hoped that more people can come to grasp the context under which Legend went to play his last tournament, uncoloured by predai's series of posts.
Larva streaming right now with the nick "footstargamer" and including some foot action right in a very tense ZvT matchup. Pretty sure he did this before too. So yeah, unless you're not gonna beat the guy you might as well live with some humiliation.
Well shits happened even when FireBatHero did some ceremony as did a lot of other players... but i don't think he got roasted this much. The players who lost against then returned with better performances and paid it back with some hearts and more ceremonies... that was one of the things people liked about the whole sc drama isn't it?
EPT
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