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trutaCz, I expected this result. Tell me, do you deem this a success or not? I deem it a great success.
Its now been only 6 days and Heartbeat has been played 693 times. It is the 13th most played map on iccup when compared against the number of games played over the entire previous season plus the 6 days.
That’s more than Tau Cross, La Mancha, Longinus, Matchpoint, Andromeda and many more ofcourse.
I wonder, would it be fair to say that by 'forcing' people to play a new map has resulted in more map diversity in the long run?
Perhaps motw should always be just one map every week. But Im getting off topic.
I think if Heartbeat was not liked then people would have stopped using it as motw and instead gone back to just playing their favourite maps.
When iccup introduced 4 new maps including Avalon and Demian, the 4 maps were also motw for the first week. Avalon was played 70 times in the whole season, Demian 97, and if you add the number of games played on all 4 of those new maps together, its 304 games over the whole season.
So Heartbeat has been played more than twice that in 6 days. Ofcourse its more focused having just 1 map than 4 maps at once. But still an impressive reception.
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Your statistics would have some matter if you compare them to the fair process. There is a huge difference between one map in motw and 4-5 of maps or more in motw. If there is one, people will have no possibility to choose and these who wants more points will just pick motw map no matter what. If you put 4-5 maps in motw and then X(new) map will have better number/same amount of/not much less games - then it's a success.
PS. In my opinion putting one map in MOTW is really stupid.
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lol, statistics and manipulation :D
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i think cardinal is right when saying that heartbeat was a success so far. Ofc we don't know how much the map would have been played with more MOTW maps, but we will see that soon, when the MOTW rotates.
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On December 08 2015 00:37 Cele wrote:
i think cardinal is right when saying that heartbeat was a success so far. Ofc we don't know how much the map would have been played with more MOTW maps, but we will see that soon, when the MOTW rotates.
is the only motw map,and so far atleast 2 3 tournaments only with this map 
my thoughts of this map is:that close air expansion is terrible.if you want to expand taking a close third also feels weird.if people are having fun with the map its ok im for it,but is not a map i will like to play to be honest.
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It's an average-to-bad map. There were by far better maps mentioned here. Simply because it's a boring map choosen mostly by low level players for camping. It's like destination, why attack when you can just sit and wait on 3 bases for 20+ minutes, with 4th quite close too. It's bad design this way, the island is too close and it's only for tanks advantage - yay, good we aren't biased towards a specific race.
I use it only for points.
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Netherlands4651 Posts
Even though it is manipulating to have it as the only motw. It does prove is that it isn't a terribad map or otherwise people would have played FS/CB instead.
I don't understand why is it not in the current motw? Why make it first the only motw and then not include it again to see how it fairs with other maps in the motw?
On topic:
If most of the players in TLC practice on Fish rather than on iCCup, then putting Heartbeart in the motw still not going to do much for TLC/TLS.
I think that's a big problem with introducing new maps to the foreigner scene: even if a map is good, if it is not being played on Fish, it will probably not be popular in tourneys.
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eonzerg, julia: Ah great, some feedback about how Heartbeat plays. Thankyou for this.
Cele: ofcourse the map will probably drop to being played zero times for the rest of the season now. But in my opinion it is already a success and cant go back from that. Over 750 games played on it in 7 days, and again thats more than Tau Cross, La Mancha, Longinus, Matchpoint, Andromeda were played last season. So I would imagine it will probably stay in the map pack for a few seasons now. If however it proves to be very imbalanced then I expect it will be removed. I hope people have enjoyed playing around with it so far. Even if you play it and decide its not your cup of tea, there is still entertainment that can be derived from that. It can be fun to try slightly non standard maps from time to time. They can give you new ideas, they can remind you why you do things a certain way already etc.
On December 08 2015 01:12 13Julia wrote:
There were by far better maps mentioned here.
Which ones? If people publicly say which maps they specifically want to be used in tournaments then that is surely helpful.
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People usually say what benefits them, so if they can get a second Destination, they will say what they need.
I've tried like, all the maps you made and played at least a few games on every one of them, mostly they are quite fun maps well designed.
What I don't like about Heartbeat is the island so cose to natural - it only benefits the terran, which in my opinion is so-so idea.
Really liked Crossgame, it's a beauty map, don't know if it's balanced - I just like it. Small, fun map, nicely done.
All other maps are quite awesome too, maybe overwatch's 3rd is a bit too easy to defend, I'd think about it being a low-ground exp better or no-gas. They're good maps to ladder, definitely more fun to play than the ridiculously imbalanced Desti or Longinus. Still if I had to play a tournament match vs terran, I'd not choose Heartbeat.
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how about rebalancing LT, for oldies like me, so it can become relevant again? lots of good/wrong with that map for discussion
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On December 09 2015 01:45 zs-Adun wrote:
how about rebalancing LT, for oldies like me, so it can become relevant again? lots of good/wrong with that map for discussion
Only if Scan is banned from playing on it, otherwise it would be unfair.
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On December 09 2015 01:45 zs-Adun wrote:
how about rebalancing LT, for oldies like me, so it can become relevant again? lots of good/wrong with that map for discussion
rebalancing LT? its called python
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I dont care what maps they gonna use in any TL fucking S or C (I'm really sorry Cardinal but you see that nobody gave a fuck) but I'm not going to give away my LT without a war. Vote for return of LT here:
http://iccup.com/starcraft/community/thread/820359/
I don't care about protoss criers and balance whiners. Read all comments and you will know what we're talking about. We got 80% vote at start but don't know how we get to 60%, I think there was a manipulation but I don't care. This is not how you welcome new foreigner maps by removing most 3rd played map by not giving a shit about players opinions.
LT proves that BW is alive. All foreign maps are great but no one can replace our memories...
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i like u outscar, id play on normal LT but alot of FSers hate it
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every week should be newest maps, maps that people can prepare for 1 week only.
Exclude common maps, whole map pack should be used only in final, after a loss.
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r maps even fresh anymore? with what the player ratio picks? lt python fs right?
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Gotta be honest, only people who can't play or viewers who don't understand the game, push these new maps. Agree with Trutacz 100%, they will not make the matches more entertaining and the majority of the viewers want good mechanically played games over quirky maps that will not cater to map specific play. (example: people who don't practice as much will not have a map-specific build, they will try to play FS standard on an unconventional map) I don't know why this topic is still even argued.
Answer? Keep picking the same generic tour maps.
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The maps for TLS prelims have been announced:
Game 1 on FS
Game 2 on Medusa
Game 3 on Heartbreak Ridge if needed
Would a tournament organiser care to make a post explaining a bit about the map selection so far? Are foreign maps being considered? Are foreign maps a possibility for the elimination stage?
Could someone tell me why the maps in this thread aren’t being used? I genuinely don’t understand.
To Draw
+ Show Spoiler +Gotta be honest, only people who can't play or viewers who don't understand the game, push these new maps. I assume your sentence ends with something like “and therefore should be ignored”. If so I disagree because the opinion of low level players and low knowledge viewers does matter to a degree. Ofcourse the statement is also untrue. Agree with Trutacz 100%, they will not make the matches more entertaining. That’s an opinion, some disagree. For example, simply watching games being played on new maps will be more entertaining for some people. That’s a personal thing, separate from the level of skill on display. The majority of the viewers want good mechanically played games over quirky maps. This might be true, there is no data. But its irrelevant because: The maps Ive suggested are not quirky. We could have ‘good mechanically played games’ on the maps Ive suggested. Also, Medusa has been played 193 times. That’s less than Queensbridge (198), Latin Quarter (225), Cross Game (370), and Heartbeat (1002). By your own argument, Medusa should be dropped for something that is practiced on more often. Lastly, Medusa is very quirky: 3 player, backdoor expo, backdoor path, flat main/nat, cliffed main minerals. I don't know why this topic is still even argued. Some people might say that the maps are fun, balanced, polished, easy to transition to, suitable for modern play, as good as/perhaps better than the competition. Some people might argue that a foreign tournament is a great opportunity to use foreign maps. Answer? Keep picking the same generic tour maps. That doesn’t sound like a very clever long term plan (or short term plan) to me. Actually, Im going to expand on this part because I think it is such a ridiculous idea. Lost Temple should be used only. New maps should never be used. Fighting Spirit would never have been made because everyone is still playing Lost Temple. Kespa pushed for new maps because they had long term vision. Draw, I think me and you would agree on something though. I believe the integrity of the competition comes first, and therefore balance is the most important thing, above ‘what the viewers want’. So I ask you, do you think that the current map pool (fs, medusa, heartbreak ridge) is the best it can be? This thread is for map discussion. Its not foreign maps vs Korean maps. Its about getting the best possible map pack for the best possible tournament.
Some additional passing thoughts:
+ Show Spoiler +I get a feeling of being stuck in 2009 with these 3 maps. Seven years have passed!
Sadly back to using FS after finally dropping it too. But this isn’t a battle I will fight much. A number of the players will support having FS in the pack. Note that a number of the players don’t want to play on fighting spirit though. They would be happy to play newer maps instead (Korean or foreign). And a quite large number of viewers don’t want fighting spirit in the TLS map pack. In my opinion TLC was successful in not using FS. Overall I would say there were only a few grumbles, while there was also quite a bit of support.
Both Medusa and Heartbreak Ridge are flat main/nat. Well you could have chosen Heartbeat instead as that is also flat main/nat.
In the foreign scene, terran is a bit weaker if anything, yet you have chosen 2 slightly harder terran maps which is surprising. Could have chosen a balanced map instead, or if you wish, a new map with unknown balance. That would be really exciting.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
Where's Avalon?
grrrrrrrrrrr
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On December 07 2015 07:35 CardinalAllin wrote:
trutaCz, I expected this result. Tell me, do you deem this a success or not? I deem it a great success.
Its now been only 6 days and Heartbeat has been played 693 times. It is the 13th most played map on iccup when compared against the number of games played over the entire previous season plus the 6 days.
That’s more than Tau Cross, La Mancha, Longinus, Matchpoint, Andromeda and many more ofcourse.
I wonder, would it be fair to say that by 'forcing' people to play a new map has resulted in more map diversity in the long run?
Perhaps motw should always be just one map every week. But Im getting off topic.
I think if Heartbeat was not liked then people would have stopped using it as motw and instead gone back to just playing their favourite maps.
When iccup introduced 4 new maps including Avalon and Demian, the 4 maps were also motw for the first week. Avalon was played 70 times in the whole season, Demian 97, and if you add the number of games played on all 4 of those new maps together, its 304 games over the whole season.
So Heartbeat has been played more than twice that in 6 days. Ofcourse its more focused having just 1 map than 4 maps at once. But still an impressive reception.
You have to force people to play new maps, or they will not.
I value the part of StarCraft that is maps - how they make you figure out solutions to new problems, how they bring out different aspects of players and of races.
Therefore, you have to force players to walk the path that is best for the game. If you leave them to their own wills, they will rot in the pool of Fighting Spirit forever.
Use maps of the week and small weekly tournaments to make people learn new maps, then use those new maps in bigger, yearly tournaments.
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EPT
