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On September 30 2014 03:43 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 03:32 Big J wrote:On September 30 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote:On September 30 2014 02:42 Big J wrote:As for what Protoss composition I've used against this mech style? I've tried pretty much everything as one of my friends plays it. The most success I've had is just massing Carrier / HT / Tempests / Immortals with some Blink Stalkers and an Oracle for Revelation. But he doesn't use hotkeys or make Ghosts... I've played against Raven/Hellbat/Viking/Thor/Tank/Ghost styles on the ladder and had my ass handed to me by guys who were going 70% TvP...
Like I said it may not be super High M/GM viable because of the economics required, but if you can GET to this composition it's extremely strong.Like I said it may not be super High M/GM viable because of the economics required, but if you can GET to this composition it's extremely strong. Well, I'm asking because I have played this style at said level. And I think its basically impossible to beat a Protoss that feedbacks fast. I believe it is just a question of mechanical skill. Once you hit a player is good enough to feedback 4ravens in half a second, that composition has no chance anymore and there is nothing you can do about, unless you fuck up and attack into the Terran. In my experience Raven/Viking constantly killing observers makes it extremely hard to not get EMPd. Once the EMPs are landed then I get seeker missiled like 10 times and after that my whole army's fucked. These kinds of games are a lot of fun though. Terran will be playing Siege Tank, Hellbat, Raven, Viking, Thor, Ghost and I'll be going Blink Stalkers, HT, Obs, Oracle, Tempest,Carrier Immortal... neither army can 1A the other one and it all comes down to unit control. Every single unit needs to be microed. Super fun. EDIT - and we get to make the fun units we don't otherwise get to make! Yeah, but I think this is quite solveable by building canons. In that scenario, the Terran army has to stay together and inside of PDDs, while the Protoss through warp ins has full mapcontrol and can establish any position he wants. So what you do is, you build a ton of canons 25range (making up a number, but to get a rough feeling) from where you want to attack. So you always have detection around there. And you keep on going forward and backward with Tempests. It takes 20mins, but then Ravens are out of energy and it's checkmate. Since Tempests outrun HSM, you will never ever get hit, only by vikings. But anytime the vikings shoot, the carriers release their interceptors as well and shred them. Not to mention that just that juggling will eventually kill the vikings through Tempest shots. There are just so many PDDs that do actually protect them when they fight at the edge. And if the Terran places too many PDDs at one location, you switch angle and get closer to your goal (which is making the ravens run out of energy) much faster. True cannons are good (I make them). But Tanks have 13 range as well. So tanks can hit the cannons. Tempests can hit the tanks but then Vikings / PDD can hit the Tempests, meaning that the HT need to wander into Tank/EMP range in order to cast spells. So it's really a dance. I feel like whoever has better unit control and positioning wins. If they just got rid of bio and immortals, I would play this style all day! It's so fun. And it's nice to have all these big expensive units that aren't easy to replenish duking it out. Looks pretty.
You should try playing Swarm Hosts. That's the real shit.  (and personally I have no objection playing them, it's quite fun - watching them is the painful part)
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On September 30 2014 03:48 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 03:43 DinoMight wrote:On September 30 2014 03:32 Big J wrote:On September 30 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote:On September 30 2014 02:42 Big J wrote:As for what Protoss composition I've used against this mech style? I've tried pretty much everything as one of my friends plays it. The most success I've had is just massing Carrier / HT / Tempests / Immortals with some Blink Stalkers and an Oracle for Revelation. But he doesn't use hotkeys or make Ghosts... I've played against Raven/Hellbat/Viking/Thor/Tank/Ghost styles on the ladder and had my ass handed to me by guys who were going 70% TvP...
Like I said it may not be super High M/GM viable because of the economics required, but if you can GET to this composition it's extremely strong.Like I said it may not be super High M/GM viable because of the economics required, but if you can GET to this composition it's extremely strong. Well, I'm asking because I have played this style at said level. And I think its basically impossible to beat a Protoss that feedbacks fast. I believe it is just a question of mechanical skill. Once you hit a player is good enough to feedback 4ravens in half a second, that composition has no chance anymore and there is nothing you can do about, unless you fuck up and attack into the Terran. In my experience Raven/Viking constantly killing observers makes it extremely hard to not get EMPd. Once the EMPs are landed then I get seeker missiled like 10 times and after that my whole army's fucked. These kinds of games are a lot of fun though. Terran will be playing Siege Tank, Hellbat, Raven, Viking, Thor, Ghost and I'll be going Blink Stalkers, HT, Obs, Oracle, Tempest,Carrier Immortal... neither army can 1A the other one and it all comes down to unit control. Every single unit needs to be microed. Super fun. EDIT - and we get to make the fun units we don't otherwise get to make! Yeah, but I think this is quite solveable by building canons. In that scenario, the Terran army has to stay together and inside of PDDs, while the Protoss through warp ins has full mapcontrol and can establish any position he wants. So what you do is, you build a ton of canons 25range (making up a number, but to get a rough feeling) from where you want to attack. So you always have detection around there. And you keep on going forward and backward with Tempests. It takes 20mins, but then Ravens are out of energy and it's checkmate. Since Tempests outrun HSM, you will never ever get hit, only by vikings. But anytime the vikings shoot, the carriers release their interceptors as well and shred them. Not to mention that just that juggling will eventually kill the vikings through Tempest shots. There are just so many PDDs that do actually protect them when they fight at the edge. And if the Terran places too many PDDs at one location, you switch angle and get closer to your goal (which is making the ravens run out of energy) much faster. True cannons are good (I make them). But Tanks have 13 range as well. So tanks can hit the cannons. Tempests can hit the tanks but then Vikings / PDD can hit the Tempests, meaning that the HT need to wander into Tank/EMP range in order to cast spells. So it's really a dance. I feel like whoever has better unit control and positioning wins. If they just got rid of bio and immortals, I would play this style all day! It's so fun. And it's nice to have all these big expensive units that aren't easy to replenish duking it out. Looks pretty. You should try playing Swarm Hosts. That's the real shit. (and personally I have no objection playing them, it's quite fun - watching them is the painful part)
As much as I fucking hate losing to Swarm Hosts.... I go SH almost every game as Z hahahaha.
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On September 30 2014 05:06 bo1b wrote:
You two are both filthy
at least I'm not a cheeser noob who allins of 5bases. 
More seriously. I only play SHs against SG/Colossus turtle playstyles (and in general lategame Protoss) and Mech. I have tried the Snute ZvT and I don't like it and neither see it being "the future of ZvT" as some put it. But yeah, I think roach/hydra based play is the safest and most flexible style in ZvP - if you face a macro Protoss play, not when he goes robo as first tech, then you just go muta and melee ups and set up for a basetrade with a defensive nydus - and exclusively transitions into SHs, so I go SHs more often than not, just because I feel like it's the most intelligent way to play after my usual midgame.
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On September 30 2014 02:30 Clonester wrote:
Planetary Fortress stops Mass Zelots Warp ins? lol. Like a Nexus cannon, when it i fights only against units without support, its just a 1500 HP Cannon. 12 3/0/3 Zelots crush them fast. And your production is never protected by a PF.
A Mech Terran dies at his stretched hand when he moves out with his slow bobs. It just does not work or we would see it.
Mech being extremly unstable against Protoss of the same lvl is common between all pros and you rarely see it anywhere. Maybe you got your unbeatable Mechball, but you still lose the game.
Please,..... it's not a single pf it's the simcity that denies 1a'ing some random zealots. Yes not on pro lvl but it's doable at gm lvl. If you want visual proof just watch an avilo game... If you get your megadeath army you'll probably win.
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On September 30 2014 06:48 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 02:30 Clonester wrote:
Planetary Fortress stops Mass Zelots Warp ins? lol. Like a Nexus cannon, when it i fights only against units without support, its just a 1500 HP Cannon. 12 3/0/3 Zelots crush them fast. And your production is never protected by a PF.
A Mech Terran dies at his stretched hand when he moves out with his slow bobs. It just does not work or we would see it.
Mech being extremly unstable against Protoss of the same lvl is common between all pros and you rarely see it anywhere. Maybe you got your unbeatable Mechball, but you still lose the game. Please,..... it's not a single pf it's the simcity that denies 1a'ing some random zealots. Yes not on pro lvl but it's doable at gm lvl. If you want visual proof just watch an avilo game... If you get your megadeath army you'll probably win.
Please don't bring up Avilo. He is THE proof that having a gimmicky style works sometimes unless you face the same opponents multiple times (MAPHACK BLINDCOUNTER AAAAAAA).
3/3/3 Zealots (usually with up to 3 DTs in there) WRECK a PF like no tomorrow. Remember, there is no support near the PF and also no SCVs. Sure, you can wall your entire base off with it, or choke the base up, but sadly, Mech units need space to move around, so if they can, Zealots surely can as well......
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On September 29 2014 23:53 DinoMight wrote:
You guys forget that as Terran goes into the "late late game" they have a much larger army size because they can start cutting SCVs and add Orbitals (for MULEs).
Protoss needs to keep a certain amount of supply in Probes the whole time to keep their economy going. So when you say "Terran is dead if he doesn't finish an engagement with 40 supply left" it's actually not as bad as it sounds.
I didn't forget this. If you can find me a single game where this actually happens, I'd be gratified, because despite sounding nice in theory it really never happens in an even game. If you watch most TvPs the Terran is starved for cash (ghosts cost 200 minerals, vikings 150, both very expensive per supply) and can't really afford to build enough macro orbitals to sacrifice a significant number of scvs. 40 extra supply would be 10 orbitals, which could just as easily by 20 ghosts, which most terrans would rather have. Plus, most of the time, unless Protoss is in a losing game against Taeja, they really only trade gas in high templars for minerals in ghosts/vikings picked off and feedbacked, so they can afford to have a lower probe count.
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On September 30 2014 07:20 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 06:48 PanzerElite wrote:On September 30 2014 02:30 Clonester wrote:
Planetary Fortress stops Mass Zelots Warp ins? lol. Like a Nexus cannon, when it i fights only against units without support, its just a 1500 HP Cannon. 12 3/0/3 Zelots crush them fast. And your production is never protected by a PF.
A Mech Terran dies at his stretched hand when he moves out with his slow bobs. It just does not work or we would see it.
Mech being extremly unstable against Protoss of the same lvl is common between all pros and you rarely see it anywhere. Maybe you got your unbeatable Mechball, but you still lose the game. Please,..... it's not a single pf it's the simcity that denies 1a'ing some random zealots. Yes not on pro lvl but it's doable at gm lvl. If you want visual proof just watch an avilo game... If you get your megadeath army you'll probably win. Please don't bring up Avilo. He is THE proof that having a gimmicky style works sometimes unless you face the same opponents multiple times (MAPHACK BLINDCOUNTER AAAAAAA). 3/3/3 Zealots (usually with up to 3 DTs in there) WRECK a PF like no tomorrow. Remember, there is no support near the PF and also no SCVs. Sure, you can wall your entire base off with it, or choke the base up, but sadly, Mech units need space to move around, so if they can, Zealots surely can as well......
The fact that Avilo plays that style constantly works against him I'd say. People know what they're going to get when they queue up against him. I think as a one off in a BoX series that style is strong. Bbyong demolished some people in PL with it. At the very least, it keeps his opponents honest with their scouting/reactions. Can't just not make units into Storm blindly.
However, when you start to do the same build on the same map every time, you get wrecked. Case in point, Rain, Parting dismantling him after he beat Classic.
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On September 30 2014 08:10 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2014 23:53 DinoMight wrote:
You guys forget that as Terran goes into the "late late game" they have a much larger army size because they can start cutting SCVs and add Orbitals (for MULEs).
Protoss needs to keep a certain amount of supply in Probes the whole time to keep their economy going. So when you say "Terran is dead if he doesn't finish an engagement with 40 supply left" it's actually not as bad as it sounds. I didn't forget this. If you can find me a single game where this actually happens, I'd be gratified, because despite sounding nice in theory it really never happens in an even game. If you watch most TvPs the Terran is starved for cash (ghosts cost 200 minerals, vikings 150, both very expensive per supply) and can't really afford to build enough macro orbitals to sacrifice a significant number of scvs. 40 extra supply would be 10 orbitals, which could just as easily by 20 ghosts, which most terrans would rather have. Plus, most of the time, unless Protoss is in a losing game against Taeja, they really only trade gas in high templars for minerals in ghosts/vikings picked off and feedbacked, so they can afford to have a lower probe count.
I'd have to agree with this. People always talk about mules in theory, but generally when a late game terran is low on SCVs, its because they are dead.
I haven't seen a Korean Terran intentionally sacrifice SCVs in years.
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Aligulac list 120.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Xhy2haa.png)
We continue to have fewer games than usually, so the numbers below are more volatile. But we're at 2,5k, down from >3k games, so we're closer to a representative number of games than before.
Winrate analysis
Let's look at ZvT first, unlike every list since the patch, Z has overtaken T with a winrate of 51%. One could concede that list 117 broke the mold as well with 49.85%, so basically even 50%.
But one could also make an argument for a trend which favours Z. List 118 was at 44%, list 119 was at 46% and now it's at 51%. So Z is doing better with every list. But it's only 3 lists of 2 weeks each. More time (and more games) are needed to assess the situation.
PvT seems to be in a volatile spot. 118 was at 47%, 119 at 51% and 120 is now at 45%. There is no trend, but P took a beating these last two weeks. This might just be a symptom of the lists including fewer games than usually.
PvZ is still Z favoured. List 120 was at 47%, list 119 at 49% and list 118 at 48%. So Z has a consistent but very slight advantage over P. There is no real trend.
Population analysis
The population numbers seem to have stabilized to list 119 levels. P has 2/3 of Z mirror matches. While T lags behind with around 1/3 of Z mirror matches. So the T population remains lower than the P population, and much lower than the Z population.
On a related note, I wish they removed SEA games from aligulac...
On September 21 2014 20:18 Ghanburighan wrote:Aligulac list 119. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IaF4Rp3.png) Another list period is over, albeit the number of games is still lower than the regular number. Still, there are nearly twice as many games as in 118, so the results should be more representative. In terms of winrates, P and T are pretty even, with P having a marginal advantage. The change from the previous list was 4 points, from 47% to 51%. Z and P are also even, with Z having a marginal advantage.The change from the previous list was 1 point, from 48% to 49%. And T and Z are better than before, but with T having an advantage. The change from the previous list was 2 points, from 56% to 54%. In terms of population numbers, there were once again many more ZvZs than PvPs or TvTs. With 2.4x more ZvZ than TvT and 1.7x more ZvZ than PvP. The number of Z games might be explained by the fact that Z is doing better against P, and there being more P than T in competitions. Overall, no generalizations can really be made from this data, but we can probably soon look at the overall trend once there are more games collected. Show nested quote +On September 04 2014 23:37 Ghanburighan wrote:Aligulac list 118. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mpO5wqJ.png) Here's the second list after the patch. Let's first look at winrates. P has clawed back a bit against T (47% versus the previous 45%). P has also lost the same amount of percentage points against Z (47% versus the previous 49%). T significantly improved its result versus Z (56% versus the previous 50%). It should also be noticed (according to preliminary results posted in the thread) that in the beginning of the period the winrates were further away from 50%, while later games allowed both P and Z to make up several percentage points. It has to be noted, though, that there were only ~1/3 of the games that you usually see in an Aligulac list due to the holidays. So all winrates need to be taken with an even greater bit of salt than usually. (With these low numbers a single 4-0 results in a full percentage point swing). As for population numbers, they continue to even out. TvTs make up 80% of PvPs while previously they made up 68%. Albeit TvTs make up 46% of ZvZs while last time they made up 58% of ZvZs. And PvPs make up 56% of ZvZs while they previously made up 85% of ZvZs. So ZvZ numbers are on the rise again (Z improved against P both in terms of winrate and population) but the numbers are still in the same ballpark as last time, rather than showing differences of multiple times as before the patch. On August 21 2014 20:32 Ghanburighan wrote:Aligulac list 117. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9r04q4l.png) This time we have interesting results. The patch went through on the 25th of July, so both 116 and 117 are pertinent for our analysis. The first thing to notice, PvT has been consistently at ~45% since the patch. (Down from 48%, 52%, 52%, 50%, 46% in previous lists). TvZ has been hovering around 50%, which has roughly been the norm over all quoted lists (it sometimes dips to ~46% for short periods). PvZ has climbed back to ~50%, from a short 47% dip. Population numbers are becoming more even. TvTs make up 58% of the ZvZs, and PvPs 85% of ZvZs. TvTs also make up 68% of TvTs. This is a marked improvement from the time when there were for example 4x or 5x more ZvZs than TvTs (and smaller advantages for PvPs, still measured as nx). Population wise, there's also a non-significant improvement for P compared to Z. The conclusion from the first month after the balance change appears to be that T is doing better, but mostly with respect to games against P. Albeit, you could make the argument that as there are more terrans in tournaments, but the winrates against Z are equal, terrans are actually doing better, it's merely weaker terrans that are losing more. What's clearly the case is that we can no longer count how many times more ZvZs and PvPs there are than TvTs. Anyone who actually watched the games should comment further. On August 08 2014 05:03 Ghanburighan wrote:Aligulac list 116. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mqKrKFk.png) Regarding winrates, T had an edge against P, and a very small edge against T. PvZ is even. Regarding populations, there were only about twice as many PvPs as TvTs and 2.5x ZvZs as TvTs, so there's improvement. On July 24 2014 15:32 Ghanburighan wrote:While we're looking at winrates, here's another Aligulac list: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6zp9WrK.png) Just looking at winrates, PvT is rather even, and so is PvZ but TvZ has gone down to the dumps again. On the other hand, the population numbers are the worst ever for Terran. It looks like T has a constant of around 100 games every period, but with the added number of games (last period has 1799 games, this one 3866), only Z and P seem to have added more mirrors. So there are 4.8x as many ZvZ as TvT, and 3.8x as many PvP as TvT. This also means that P has once again caught up with Z populations, last period it was 1.3 ZvZ for every 1 PvP, now it's 1.2. On July 10 2014 20:15 Ghanburighan wrote:Here's the latest Aligulac list (114) with pretty new formatting. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/280eKxW.png) With regard to P, nothing seems to have changed. Just like the first half of June, P>T by a slight margin, P and Z are roughly even, and there are roughly the same number of PvP MU's in tournaments. Z did worse in this period, while it was at >55% against T last time, it's now even in winrates. More importantly, looking at populations, while there were 5x more ZvZ than TvT, and 2x more ZvZ than PvP, then now there are only roughly 3x more ZvZ than TvT, and a just over a fourth more ZvZ than PvPs. This suggests that Z is doing worse, and it's mainly doing worse against T (note that worse doesn't imply that they're doing bad, this is a comparison with the previous period). Looking more closely at the population numbers, there appear to have been fewer games, the total for 114 is 1835 and for 113 it was 2379. So for the previous 113 list Z MUs made up 72% of all MUs. P MUs made up 55% (note that the overlap is due to the fact that P plays Z...). T MUs made up 36% of all MUs. In this list, 114, Z MUs made up 65% of all MUs. P MUs made up 57%. T MUs made up 42% of all MUs. So Z is down 7%, P is up 2% and T is up 6%. (with rounding) The previous lists can be found below. On June 29 2014 05:42 Ghanburighan wrote:Sorry for the delay, here's Aligulac 113.. The previous list(s) can be found at the end of this post. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Oc9x1bJ.png) Looking at the winrates, P has extended its advantage over T, P has also gained some ground back against Z, yet TvZ has strongly turned in Z favour once gain (it's as bad as it was before the hellbat patch in April). Population numbers are also worse. Previously there were 4x more ZvZ games than TvT games, now there are more than 5x. PvP's have not changed in number, so it's mostly just less terrans and more zergs getting further that's creating the problem. All in all, balance-wise this was a very depressing period. On June 12 2014 15:32 Ghanburighan wrote:Time to post the latest Aligulac list. The previous list can be found at the end of this post. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pKEYuFe.png) Regarding winrates, PvT has fluctuated back from T having a slight advantage to P having a minuscule advantage. In PvZ, P has also improved although it hasn't caught up with Z. On the other hand, T has improved in the TvZ MU (110 had 45%, 111 had 47%) and its even now. In terms of populations measured in numbers of mirror MUs, there's virtually no change compared to the last list, the proportions are very close. This means that there is no repopulation of terrans according to these numbers and there are 4 times fewer TvTs than ZvZs. As T MUs have even winrates, there cannot really be a repopulation with these numbers. Furthermore, a word of caution, I'd say that this was one of the best periods for Terran in a long while, Taeja won Hsc 9 (where Z had a comparatively weaker list of players), Maru is tearing up Code S, and Innovation is kicking as in teamleagues and the Dragon cup. I don't think they contributed overly much to the final winrates (their games are still a small fraction of all the games), but taken together they did contribute significantly. If they don't keep their winning ways going, winrates can plunge below 50% again. And, their wins aren't helping repopulate in any way. On May 29 2014 02:45 Ghanburighan wrote:Uploading the latest Aligulac list. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wem39XJ.png) Unfortunately there was a TvZ patch in the middle of the period, so those numbers could be anything now. But it looks like P is doing worse against Z in terms of winrate. But the population ratios haven't changed compared to the last list, though. It's still roughly 1/4 TvT, 2/4 PvP and 1/1 ZvZ.
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Czech Republic12125 Posts
On October 01 2014 02:26 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 08:10 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On September 29 2014 23:53 DinoMight wrote:
You guys forget that as Terran goes into the "late late game" they have a much larger army size because they can start cutting SCVs and add Orbitals (for MULEs).
Protoss needs to keep a certain amount of supply in Probes the whole time to keep their economy going. So when you say "Terran is dead if he doesn't finish an engagement with 40 supply left" it's actually not as bad as it sounds. I didn't forget this. If you can find me a single game where this actually happens, I'd be gratified, because despite sounding nice in theory it really never happens in an even game. If you watch most TvPs the Terran is starved for cash (ghosts cost 200 minerals, vikings 150, both very expensive per supply) and can't really afford to build enough macro orbitals to sacrifice a significant number of scvs. 40 extra supply would be 10 orbitals, which could just as easily by 20 ghosts, which most terrans would rather have. Plus, most of the time, unless Protoss is in a losing game against Taeja, they really only trade gas in high templars for minerals in ghosts/vikings picked off and feedbacked, so they can afford to have a lower probe count. I'd have to agree with this. People always talk about mules in theory, but generally when a late game terran is low on SCVs, its because they are dead. I haven't seen a Korean Terran intentionally sacrifice SCVs in years.
I think that's because the game rarely gets there. I think it happened if few TvZ against SH style. I think that the stalemate game in PL got there, not sure though.
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On October 02 2014 18:51 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 02:26 r691175002 wrote:On September 30 2014 08:10 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On September 29 2014 23:53 DinoMight wrote:
You guys forget that as Terran goes into the "late late game" they have a much larger army size because they can start cutting SCVs and add Orbitals (for MULEs).
Protoss needs to keep a certain amount of supply in Probes the whole time to keep their economy going. So when you say "Terran is dead if he doesn't finish an engagement with 40 supply left" it's actually not as bad as it sounds. I didn't forget this. If you can find me a single game where this actually happens, I'd be gratified, because despite sounding nice in theory it really never happens in an even game. If you watch most TvPs the Terran is starved for cash (ghosts cost 200 minerals, vikings 150, both very expensive per supply) and can't really afford to build enough macro orbitals to sacrifice a significant number of scvs. 40 extra supply would be 10 orbitals, which could just as easily by 20 ghosts, which most terrans would rather have. Plus, most of the time, unless Protoss is in a losing game against Taeja, they really only trade gas in high templars for minerals in ghosts/vikings picked off and feedbacked, so they can afford to have a lower probe count. I'd have to agree with this. People always talk about mules in theory, but generally when a late game terran is low on SCVs, its because they are dead. I haven't seen a Korean Terran intentionally sacrifice SCVs in years. I think that's because the game rarely gets there. I think it happened if few TvZ against SH style. I think that the stalemate game in PL got there, not sure though.
yeah. In Mech vs Zerg it is pretty common to at least have some macro CCs and go to <50SCVs. The thing that people underestimate is that often towards the end of the game you just sac the workers. You don't replace them. Not with other workers, and in the Terran case, not with mass Mules (mass OCs, that still cost money).
Happens pretty commonly in Mech and Swarm Host playstyles. People sometimes go even below 30workers, because they actually only harvest from 1-2 expansions anyways.
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Interesting to see Protoss flirting with the dangerous 10% win differential level. I didn't get any impression that things had shifted THAT much. Probably just a factor of low numbers, one to keep an eye on I guess.
TvZ looks fairly healthy at least.
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Northern Ireland22770 Posts
@Ghanburigan, I haven't noodled around too much on Aligulac lately, it's a bit of a pain without a desktop PC and only a phone. Are you able to filter out the SEA players out of interest or is that too difficult to do?
It would go some way to explaining that ZvZ is by far the most played mirror pretty much every month, which doesn't correlate with what I've been seeing lately at all, and I've been watching a hell of a lot of tournaments
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On October 02 2014 22:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
@Ghanburigan, I haven't noodled around too much on Aligulac lately, it's a bit of a pain without a desktop PC and only a phone. Are you able to filter out the SEA players out of interest or is that too difficult to do?
It would go some way to explaining that ZvZ is by far the most played mirror pretty much every month, which doesn't correlate with what I've been seeing lately at all, and I've been watching a hell of a lot of tournaments
Well in my current season i played more ZvZ than ZvT + ZvP combined (like one more ZvZ) on EU plat level.
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On October 02 2014 22:46 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 22:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
@Ghanburigan, I haven't noodled around too much on Aligulac lately, it's a bit of a pain without a desktop PC and only a phone. Are you able to filter out the SEA players out of interest or is that too difficult to do?
It would go some way to explaining that ZvZ is by far the most played mirror pretty much every month, which doesn't correlate with what I've been seeing lately at all, and I've been watching a hell of a lot of tournaments Well in my current season i played more ZvZ than ZvT + ZvP combined (like one more ZvZ) on EU plat level.
In your case, it is because that's where the Zerg's are.
It gets thinner towards Masters. Or towards Gold, whichever you prefer.
Global population numbers according to sc2ranks.com, and EU is even a little more Zerg dominated than that!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XVSfGDU.jpg)
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Well... thanks to Zheryn i'm not a brick in ZvZ anymore so... that's fine.
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The mean-reverting trend in TvZ is exactly as expected to date. Terran started with a very strong winrate, and then as weaker Zerg players dropped out the winrate normalized.
We can see that a shift in tournament representation has indeed occured as Terran mirrors are a lot more common nowadays. The high ZvZ mirror count is potentially a warning sign but I'll let it slide since I feel like they have more pro players in the foreign scene.
So far I'd say the patch has moved things in a good direction overall, although Protoss may end up too weak. I don't think anyone can rationally call for any changes for at least a few more months.
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On October 02 2014 23:22 FFW_Rude wrote:
Well... thanks to Zheryn i'm not a brick in ZvZ anymore so... that's fine.
I'm just leaving them right at the start, so I'm fine too.
(sometimes I play some just to prevent getting matched with low diamonds)
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On October 02 2014 23:42 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 23:22 FFW_Rude wrote:
Well... thanks to Zheryn i'm not a brick in ZvZ anymore so... that's fine. I'm just leaving them right at the start, so I'm fine too. (sometimes I play some just to prevent getting matched with low diamonds)
Sick of the speedling allin opening ?
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EPT
