EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1117
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DepressedOne
United States190 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On September 29 2014 23:56 SC2Toastie wrote: Collosi don't have friendly splash. Splash with Friendly Fire; T: Sieged Tanks, EMP, Nuke, Seeker Missile, Widow Mines P: Psionic Storm Z: Blinding Cloud Splash without Friendly Fire: T: Hellions, Hellbats, Thor Aerial Attack P: Archon, Collosi Z: Banelings (That'd be fun  ), Fungal, Ultralisk, Mutalisk BounceI think I got them all now. In WoL there was a custom game where it was basicly the exact same thing as a normal game but banelings did do friendly fire. I played a ton of ZvZ on that map (duh of course because it was only meant for that). It was really fun. That was really micro intensive (and really too hard). You would get a huge bane explosion only to hit one ling of the other guy with your whole army around it a few seconds later and you were suddenly the dead guy. was fun :p | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 30 2014 00:13 DepressedOne wrote: Mass ravens is pretty powerful. I think ravens/siege tanks/hellions/ghosts can defeat any protoss army. Ravens and vikings are more ideal for tempests. It'd be hard to make the transition but I think it's feasible. I agree with this. I think max/close to max Terran mech + ghosts is actually unbeatable if the Terran controls correctly. The problem is there is a stage in the game where Terran doesn't have enough stuff to expand more (high infrastructure cost, low mobility of units is a factor) but will just get out macrod if he turtles. The best way to test this is to just go into a unit editor and MAKE a max Terran mech army + Ghosts. It's unkillable. I think if they want to make mech viable vs Protoss they need to give Terran something to make securing the 3rd and 4th bases easier. Currently the way I beat mech on the ladder when I face it is just scouting it in time and double expanding immediately while going HT/Tempests because I know that I have a window of time where I can do anything I want. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On September 30 2014 00:20 DinoMight wrote: I agree with this. I think max/close to max Terran mech + ghosts is actually unbeatable if the Terran controls correctly. The problem is there is a stage in the game where Terran doesn't have enough stuff to expand more (high infrastructure cost, low mobility of units is a factor) but will just get out macrod if he turtles. The best way to test this is to just go into a unit editor and MAKE a max Terran mech army + Ghosts. It's unkillable. I think if they want to make mech viable vs Protoss they need to give Terran something to make securing the 3rd and 4th bases easier. Currently the way I beat mech on the ladder when I face it is just scouting it in time and double expanding immediately while going HT/Tempests because I know that I have a window of time where I can do anything I want. I dont think this strats works out in Masters or GM. The Terran Mech, Ghost + Raven army is very very immobile. Yeah it is possible, when the Protoss does not hit all feedbacks, he gets crushed. But SC II is not just about 2 giant Armys clashing. The Protoss will be able to play around the Terran army and maybe forcing a basetrade. Warp Prism play will destroy the terran, he will bleed out without a final clash. It is true, this potential army ( when you are able to do the transition ) is extremly potential and maybe work on the smallest maps. But as soon as the map is a bit bigger or the protoss skills are high, no matter of the terran skills, the protoss gerilliawar will destroy the terran slowly but steady. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 30 2014 00:49 Clonester wrote: I dont think this strats works out in Masters or GM. The Terran Mech, Ghost + Raven army is very very immobile. Yeah it is possible, when the Protoss does not hit all feedbacks, he gets crushed. But SC II is not just about 2 giant Armys clashing. The Protoss will be able to play around the Terran army and maybe forcing a basetrade. Warp Prism play will destroy the terran, he will bleed out without a final clash. It is true, this potential army ( when you are able to do the transition ) is extremly potential and maybe work on the smallest maps. But as soon as the map is a bit bigger or the protoss skills are high, no matter of the terran skills, the protoss gerilliawar will destroy the terran slowly but steady. The only reason this happens is because the Terran goes into the mid/late game with an econ disadvantage, because if he tries to expand early he dies but if he doesn't the Protoss can out econ him. Planetary fortresses and missile turrets are very strong at shutting down the kind of harass you're talking about. And the Protoss units that are good at dealing with this type of Mech army are also big and slow (Carriers, Tempests, High Templar). | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 30 2014 01:24 PanzerElite wrote: Ghosts become useless at a certain stage, supply is better spend into hellions (to kill templars) and ravens. (the only decent lategame unit) And the only way to get there is to turtle like hardcore behind a million turrets. @ Clonester you can get into gm by only defending and mining your half of the map if you preserve your vespene gas units by getting a ravencloud for pdds and seekers. I don't see how u can play against Carrier / HT without Ghosts. Especially when P uses an Oracle for Revelation on your Ravens. He can see them coming a mile away. | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
On September 30 2014 01:30 DinoMight wrote: I don't see how u can play against Carrier / HT without Ghosts. Especially when P uses an Oracle for Revelation on your Ravens. He can see them coming a mile away. You roast all ht by sending in 10+ bf hellions and ravens don't die to feedback since you cast seekers and pdds before you get feedbacked. Or ht are zoned out by tanks over which your raven viking fleet is parked. As long as you build enough pfs and turrets and survive the earlygame bs protoss can't engage into you army anymore after you've build around 30 ravens. Sees it coming? If you like mech and hate losing you let protoss engage into you and thanks to ravens you should be able preserve more vespene gas units. Whoever runs out of gas first loses. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 30 2014 00:13 DepressedOne wrote: Mass ravens is pretty powerful. I think ravens/siege tanks/hellions/ghosts can defeat any protoss army. Ravens and vikings are more ideal for tempests. It'd be hard to make the transition but I think it's feasible. Carriers/Colossi/Storm would thrash that so easily... | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 30 2014 01:51 TheDwf wrote: Carriers/Colossi/Storm would thrash that so easily... How many times have you played this? I know that at your level it may not happen much, because Protoss players are better and they can shut it down early before it gets out of hand. But I actually know a couple of guys who mech a lot at a high Diamond level. Because the people they play against are not as good at either shutting down the T's economy early or expanding aggressively to compensate, they allow T to max on this composition. Like I said previously I'm not saying this is super viable at a pro level. But if the Protoss lets the Terran GET to this army (or if they scout poorly and don't make the right units, ala Classic vs Bbyong in SPL) it can be very very strong. A unit tester will show you this. A good mix of Tanks, Hellbats, Vikings and Ravens is really really strong (though I think you need Ghosts to make it ideal). | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On September 30 2014 00:01 DinoMight wrote: Banelings with friendly splash would be unusable. Colossus can't have friendly fire because friendly Zealots (melee) would melt instantly. Tanks can have friendly fire because Marines are ranged). I think it's just good game design. I don't see what provoked your response, but I'll try to make it somewhat interesting of a discussion. I really, really like the concept of friendly fire on splash because it forces positioning and micro and allows for comebacks with gimmicky moves. Banelings with splash would obviously not work, lol. However the Collosus argument, I agree less with. Yes, Zealots are melee. So what? The same argument could be made for Psionic Storm. Especially the Arc splash damage a collosus deals makes it more of a candidate for Friendly Fire than the Psi Storm, in my opinion. Tanks and Mines can have Friendly Fire because Marines are ranged. Ok. An endgame army is not going to consist of mass zealot either, so I don't see why you use Zealots here as an example. Also, the things the Tanks are going to be shooting are standing next to the marines, usually. Whatevers, I agree the current way it is designed is excellent, just trying to get some discussion on the topic of Friendly Fire  | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On September 30 2014 01:58 DinoMight wrote: How many times have you played this? I know that at your level it may not happen much, because Protoss players are better and they can shut it down early before it gets out of hand. But I actually know a couple of guys who mech a lot at a high Diamond level. Because the people they play against are not as good at either shutting down the T's economy early or expanding aggressively to compensate, they allow T to max on this composition. Like I said previously I'm not saying this is super viable at a pro level. But if the Protoss lets the Terran GET to this army (or if they scout poorly and don't make the right units, ala Classic vs Bbyong in SPL) it can be very very strong. A unit tester will show you this. A good mix of Tanks, Hellbats, Vikings and Ravens is really really strong (though I think you need Ghosts to make it ideal). Because of the Tanks and Ravens it is also a very defensive composition that really can't attack or expand. At a higher level, Protosses just abuse that and wreck you with their Anti Mech options. The fact that it works in high diamond means nothing, the fact they never see mech gives you high chances to win already. Very high masters is where people start getting a grasp of the game, where they don't copy build orders but can adjust on the fly. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 30 2014 00:20 DinoMight wrote: I agree with this. I think max/close to max Terran mech + ghosts is actually unbeatable if the Terran controls correctly. The problem is there is a stage in the game where Terran doesn't have enough stuff to expand more (high infrastructure cost, low mobility of units is a factor) but will just get out macrod if he turtles. The best way to test this is to just go into a unit editor and MAKE a max Terran mech army + Ghosts. It's unkillable. I think if they want to make mech viable vs Protoss they need to give Terran something to make securing the 3rd and 4th bases easier. Currently the way I beat mech on the ladder when I face it is just scouting it in time and double expanding immediately while going HT/Tempests because I know that I have a window of time where I can do anything I want. Against what Protoss unit composition did you test this? | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
A Mech Terran dies at his stretched hand when he moves out with his slow bobs. It just does not work or we would see it. Mech being extremly unstable against Protoss of the same lvl is common between all pros and you rarely see it anywhere. Maybe you got your unbeatable Mechball, but you still lose the game. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 30 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote: However the Collosus argument, I agree less with. Yes, Zealots are melee. So what? The same argument could be made for Psionic Storm. Especially the Arc splash damage a collosus deals makes it more of a candidate for Friendly Fire than the Psi Storm, in my opinion. Tanks and Mines can have Friendly Fire because Marines are ranged. Ok. An endgame army is not going to consist of mass zealot either, so I don't see why you use Zealots here as an example. Also, the things the Tanks are going to be shooting are standing next to the marines, usually. Well the problem with Colossi having friendly fire is that they will just roast all the Zealots, who need to be attacking at melee range. Storm is targeted. So while it does have friendly splash, you can select where to put it. Also, you usually want to use Storm when they're attacking to you and you're moving your army away, not when they're running away from you. The Colossi will shoot the first thing that comes within range (which is what the Zealots will also attack) therefore guaranteeing maximum splash damage on all your Zealots all the time. Generally, you don't want to attack into siege tanks. Marines are melee meaning that if they're managed correctly they shouldn't be on top of the units they're fighting (and thereofre in splash damage range). As for what Protoss composition I've used against this mech style? I've tried pretty much everything as one of my friends plays it. The most success I've had is just massing Carrier / HT / Tempests / Immortals with some Blink Stalkers and an Oracle for Revelation. But he doesn't use hotkeys or make Ghosts... I've played against Raven/Hellbat/Viking/Thor/Tank/Ghost styles on the ladder and had my ass handed to me by guys who were going 70% TvP... Like I said it may not be super High M/GM viable because of the economics required, but if you can GET to this composition it's extremely strong. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
As for what Protoss composition I've used against this mech style? I've tried pretty much everything as one of my friends plays it. The most success I've had is just massing Carrier / HT / Tempests / Immortals with some Blink Stalkers and an Oracle for Revelation. But he doesn't use hotkeys or make Ghosts... I've played against Raven/Hellbat/Viking/Thor/Tank/Ghost styles on the ladder and had my ass handed to me by guys who were going 70% TvP... Like I said it may not be super High M/GM viable because of the economics required, but if you can GET to this composition it's extremely strong.Like I said it may not be super High M/GM viable because of the economics required, but if you can GET to this composition it's extremely strong. Well, I'm asking because I have played this style at said level. And I think its basically impossible to beat a Protoss that feedbacks fast. I believe it is just a question of mechanical skill. Once you hit a player is good enough to feedback 4ravens in half a second, that composition has no chance anymore and there is nothing you can do about, unless you fuck up and attack into the Terran. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 30 2014 02:42 Big J wrote: Well, I'm asking because I have played this style at said level. And I think its basically impossible to beat a Protoss that feedbacks fast. I believe it is just a question of mechanical skill. Once you hit a player is good enough to feedback 4ravens in half a second, that composition has no chance anymore and there is nothing you can do about, unless you fuck up and attack into the Terran. In my experience Raven/Viking constantly killing observers makes it extremely hard to not get EMPd. Once the EMPs are landed then I get seeker missiled like 10 times and after that my whole army's fucked. These kinds of games are a lot of fun though. Terran will be playing Siege Tank, Hellbat, Raven, Viking, Thor, Ghost and I'll be going Blink Stalkers, HT, Obs, Oracle, Tempest,Carrier Immortal... neither army can 1A the other one and it all comes down to unit control. Every single unit needs to be microed. Super fun. EDIT - and we get to make the fun units we don't otherwise get to make! | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On September 30 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote: In my experience Raven/Viking constantly killing observers makes it extremely hard to not get EMPd. Once the EMPs are landed then I get seeker missiled like 10 times and after that my whole army's fucked. These kinds of games are a lot of fun though. Terran will be playing Siege Tank, Hellbat, Raven, Viking, Thor, Ghost and I'll be going Blink Stalkers, HT, Obs, Oracle, Tempest,Carrier Immortal... neither army can 1A the other one and it all comes down to unit control. Every single unit needs to be microed. Super fun. EDIT - and we get to make the fun units we don't otherwise get to make! The compositions are and engagements are a ton of fun, yes! Remember, a pylon with 2 cannons and a templar at random places on the maps is very dangerous to the Terran. The Storm deals huge damage, energy units can get sniped, cloak doesn't work anymore, flying units tend to yolo into them, etcetera. Those little defensive outposts are soo valuable..! | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 30 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote: In my experience Raven/Viking constantly killing observers makes it extremely hard to not get EMPd. Once the EMPs are landed then I get seeker missiled like 10 times and after that my whole army's fucked. These kinds of games are a lot of fun though. Terran will be playing Siege Tank, Hellbat, Raven, Viking, Thor, Ghost and I'll be going Blink Stalkers, HT, Obs, Oracle, Tempest,Carrier Immortal... neither army can 1A the other one and it all comes down to unit control. Every single unit needs to be microed. Super fun. EDIT - and we get to make the fun units we don't otherwise get to make! Yeah, but I think this is quite solveable by building canons. In that scenario, the Terran army has to stay together and inside of PDDs, while the Protoss through warp ins has full mapcontrol and can establish any position he wants. So what you do is, you build a ton of canons 25range (making up a number, but to get a rough feeling) from where you want to attack. So you always have detection around there. And you keep on going forward and backward with Tempests. It takes 20mins, but then Ravens are out of energy and it's checkmate. Since Tempests outrun HSM, you will never ever get hit, only by vikings. But anytime the vikings shoot, the carriers release their interceptors as well and shred them. Not to mention that just that juggling will eventually kill the vikings through Tempest shots. There are just so many PDDs that do actually protect them when they fight at the edge. And if the Terran places too many PDDs at one location, you switch angle and get closer to your goal (which is making the ravens run out of energy) much faster. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 30 2014 03:32 Big J wrote: Yeah, but I think this is quite solveable by building canons. In that scenario, the Terran army has to stay together and inside of PDDs, while the Protoss through warp ins has full mapcontrol and can establish any position he wants. So what you do is, you build a ton of canons 25range (making up a number, but to get a rough feeling) from where you want to attack. So you always have detection around there. And you keep on going forward and backward with Tempests. It takes 20mins, but then Ravens are out of energy and it's checkmate. Since Tempests outrun HSM, you will never ever get hit, only by vikings. But anytime the vikings shoot, the carriers release their interceptors as well and shred them. Not to mention that just that juggling will eventually kill the vikings through Tempest shots. There are just so many PDDs that do actually protect them when they fight at the edge. And if the Terran places too many PDDs at one location, you switch angle and get closer to your goal (which is making the ravens run out of energy) much faster. True cannons are good (I make them). But Tanks have 13 range as well. So tanks can hit the cannons. Tempests can hit the tanks but then Vikings / PDD can hit the Tempests, meaning that the HT need to wander into Tank/EMP range in order to cast spells. So it's really a dance. I feel like whoever has better unit control and positioning wins. If they just got rid of bio and immortals, I would play this style all day! It's so fun. And it's nice to have all these big expensive units that aren't easy to replenish duking it out. Looks pretty. | ||
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