On September 27 2014 22:31 johnbongham wrote: Wait, only forgg left in the top 8 at dreamhack? I thought T was imba now?
The terran lineup was the weakest by far and the strongest one were elimiated by Soo or in TvTs...
Oh no, other races using Terran's own argument against them!
Maybe there's some truth to it?
I agree, weak-ish Terran player pool this tournament compared to Z representation, and Z's doing surprisingly well vP this tournament.
It's the same Terran bonjwa's as always. MMA, jjakji, Polt all were there (Taeja not, but one is always missing). The only outstanding non-regular tournament attandees here are Classic, herO and soO. And nearly every tournament has some of those. The situation at this tournament is not that different to the other ones
Terrans won those tournaments because someone wins when good players play against each other. But it was neither to expected, nor unexpected (judging by playerquality). If we went through each tournament in detail, there'd be some where a Terran won and Terran had the best lineup, and some where a Terran won but some other race had a better lineup. And some where no Terran won to begin with.
Bomber, Flash, Innovation are also missing and often travel (although maybe Innovation wont be travelling as much now?). So are Maru, Cure and Reality but they don't travel outside of Korea often (I think?).
And in the past Terran's were arguing that when Taeja (the best Terran at the time aside from possibly Maru) won a tournament (such as HSC IX) with low Z / P representation (MC, Patience, Stork, Jaedong, Scarlett, Snute being the 3 best of their respective races at the tournament), it wasn't that Terran was suddenly doing well, it was that Taeja was just outplaying his opponents. In a tournament with Zest / Rain / herO / soO / Soulkey / Solar, Terran's were arguing Taeja's chances of winning would have been much worse.
Now I'm just saying that a tournament with normal Terran representation missing a lot of the big name Terrans with top Z/P representation doesn't mean Terran isn't too strong atm, it just means the Top Z/P players are capable of winning vs MMA / ForGG / Jjakji / Polt (and especially with Polt and MMA, the two I would say are potentially in the Top5 of Terran players atm, falling out in TvT).
My point is that Taeja won a tournament with: Zest, INnoVation, TRUE, Solar, Life in it. Amongst many other players that could surprise. You wouldn't say before the tournament you expect Taeja to take it, right? My point is that Flash won a tournament with: Zest, Life, sOs, Taeja in it. Amongst many other players that might upset him. You wouldn't say that the chances that a Terran wins that tournament are bigger than a non-Terran, right? My point is that Bomber won Red Bull and the other two Terrans placed 2nd and 3rd. With 4 non-Terran Code S players like Parting, sOs or DRG in it. Would you really say it was more probable for a Terran to win, than for a non-Terran?
My point is in good half of the tournaments won by a Terran the argument that the Terran who won was the outstanding favorite is wrong to begin with and in the other half of the tournaments the non-Terrans were not so shabby (and still outnumbering the Terran players), that it would again be foolish to say that those Terrans obviously had much better chances to begin with. Thus dismissing these tournaments, pretending they were cakewalks for the winners, is just not right when talking about balance.
On September 27 2014 22:31 johnbongham wrote: Wait, only forgg left in the top 8 at dreamhack? I thought T was imba now?
The terran lineup was the weakest by far and the strongest one were elimiated by Soo or in TvTs...
Oh no, other races using Terran's own argument against them!
Maybe there's some truth to it?
I agree, weak-ish Terran player pool this tournament compared to Z representation, and Z's doing surprisingly well vP this tournament.
It's the same Terran bonjwa's as always. MMA, jjakji, Polt all were there (Taeja not, but one is always missing). The only outstanding non-regular tournament attandees here are Classic, herO and soO. And nearly every tournament has some of those. The situation at this tournament is not that different to the other ones
Terrans won those tournaments because someone wins when good players play against each other. But it was neither to expected, nor unexpected (judging by playerquality). If we went through each tournament in detail, there'd be some where a Terran won and Terran had the best lineup, and some where a Terran won but some other race had a better lineup. And some where no Terran won to begin with.
Bomber, Flash, Innovation are also missing and often travel (although maybe Innovation wont be travelling as much now?). So are Maru, Cure and Reality but they don't travel outside of Korea often (I think?).
And in the past Terran's were arguing that when Taeja (the best Terran at the time aside from possibly Maru) won a tournament (such as HSC IX) with low Z / P representation (MC, Patience, Stork, Jaedong, Scarlett, Snute being the 3 best of their respective races at the tournament), it wasn't that Terran was suddenly doing well, it was that Taeja was just outplaying his opponents. In a tournament with Zest / Rain / herO / soO / Soulkey / Solar, Terran's were arguing Taeja's chances of winning would have been much worse.
Now I'm just saying that a tournament with normal Terran representation missing a lot of the big name Terrans with top Z/P representation doesn't mean Terran isn't too strong atm, it just means the Top Z/P players are capable of winning vs MMA / ForGG / Jjakji / Polt (and especially with Polt and MMA, the two I would say are potentially in the Top5 of Terran players atm, falling out in TvT).
My point is that Taeja won a tournament with: Zest, INnoVation, TRUE, Solar, Life in it. Amongst many other players that could surprise. You wouldn't say before the tournament you expect Taeja to take it, right? My point is that Flash won a tournament with: Zest, Life, sOs, Taeja in it. Amongst many other players that might upset him. You wouldn't say that the chances that a Terran wins that tournament are bigger than a non-Terran, right? My point is that Bomber won Red Bull and the other two Terrans placed 2nd and 3rd. With 4 non-Terran Code S players like Parting, sOs or DRG in it. Would you really say it was more probable for a Terran to win, than for a non-Terran?
My point is in good half of the tournaments won by a Terran the argument that the Terran who won was the outstanding favorite is wrong to begin with and in the other half of the tournaments the non-Terrans were not so shabby (and still outnumbering the Terran players), that it would again be foolish to say that those Terrans obviously had much better chances to begin with. Thus dismissing these tournaments, pretending they were cakewalks for the winners, is just not right when talking about balance.
You mean all of the post patch tournaments? (Taeja's win in IEM IX Shenzen was post patch, same with Flash's win in IEM Toronto IX) I'm talking about Terran arguments for Terran being underpowered prior to the patch when Taeja was the only Terran winning anything. Terran players were saying even Taeja wouldn't be winning, or at least not as convincingly, if those tournaments had had top Z / P representation.
I'm actually saying this tournament does not prove that Terran is not too strong / overpowered atm, because Z/P representation is stronger than T representation.
If you mean the RBBG prior to the patch, where Bomber/Polt got 1st / 2nd- The best Protoss was HuK and the best Zerg was violet, who lost in a very close 3-2 against Bomber in the semis.
A better argument would be for Dreamhack Summer Open 2014, which had a lot more KR P's and Z's and Taeja won without dropping a map. But still no Zest / Rain / herO / sOs, still no soO / Soulkey / Solar / TRUE, and no other Terran did well.
I'm not saying those tournaments should be dismissed either. Taeja proved that Terran can win. He just didn't prove Terran can win vs the very top P/Z players.
On September 27 2014 22:31 johnbongham wrote: Wait, only forgg left in the top 8 at dreamhack? I thought T was imba now?
The terran lineup was the weakest by far and the strongest one were elimiated by Soo or in TvTs...
Oh no, other races using Terran's own argument against them!
Maybe there's some truth to it?
I agree, weak-ish Terran player pool this tournament compared to Z representation, and Z's doing surprisingly well vP this tournament.
It's the same Terran bonjwa's as always. MMA, jjakji, Polt all were there (Taeja not, but one is always missing). The only outstanding non-regular tournament attandees here are Classic, herO and soO. And nearly every tournament has some of those. The situation at this tournament is not that different to the other ones
Terrans won those tournaments because someone wins when good players play against each other. But it was neither to expected, nor unexpected (judging by playerquality). If we went through each tournament in detail, there'd be some where a Terran won and Terran had the best lineup, and some where a Terran won but some other race had a better lineup. And some where no Terran won to begin with.
Bomber, Flash, Innovation are also missing and often travel (although maybe Innovation wont be travelling as much now?). So are Maru, Cure and Reality but they don't travel outside of Korea often (I think?).
And in the past Terran's were arguing that when Taeja (the best Terran at the time aside from possibly Maru) won a tournament (such as HSC IX) with low Z / P representation (MC, Patience, Stork, Jaedong, Scarlett, Snute being the 3 best of their respective races at the tournament), it wasn't that Terran was suddenly doing well, it was that Taeja was just outplaying his opponents. In a tournament with Zest / Rain / herO / soO / Soulkey / Solar, Terran's were arguing Taeja's chances of winning would have been much worse.
Now I'm just saying that a tournament with normal Terran representation missing a lot of the big name Terrans with top Z/P representation doesn't mean Terran isn't too strong atm, it just means the Top Z/P players are capable of winning vs MMA / ForGG / Jjakji / Polt (and especially with Polt and MMA, the two I would say are potentially in the Top5 of Terran players atm, falling out in TvT).
My point is that Taeja won a tournament with: Zest, INnoVation, TRUE, Solar, Life in it. Amongst many other players that could surprise. You wouldn't say before the tournament you expect Taeja to take it, right? My point is that Flash won a tournament with: Zest, Life, sOs, Taeja in it. Amongst many other players that might upset him. You wouldn't say that the chances that a Terran wins that tournament are bigger than a non-Terran, right? My point is that Bomber won Red Bull and the other two Terrans placed 2nd and 3rd. With 4 non-Terran Code S players like Parting, sOs or DRG in it. Would you really say it was more probable for a Terran to win, than for a non-Terran?
My point is in good half of the tournaments won by a Terran the argument that the Terran who won was the outstanding favorite is wrong to begin with and in the other half of the tournaments the non-Terrans were not so shabby (and still outnumbering the Terran players), that it would again be foolish to say that those Terrans obviously had much better chances to begin with. Thus dismissing these tournaments, pretending they were cakewalks for the winners, is just not right when talking about balance.
You mean all of the post patch tournaments? (Taeja's win in IEM IX Shenzen was post patch, same with Flash's win in IEM Toronto IX) I'm talking about Terran arguments for Terran being underpowered prior to the patch when Taeja was the only Terran winning anything. Terran players were saying even Taeja wouldn't be winning, or at least not as convincingly, if those tournaments had had top Z / P representation.
I'm actually saying this tournament does not prove that Terran is not too strong / overpowered atm, because Z/P representation is stronger than T representation.
If you mean the RBBG prior to the patch, where Bomber/Polt got 1st / 2nd- The best Protoss was HuK and the best Zerg was violet, who lost in a very close 3-2 against Bomber in the semis.
A better argument would be for Dreamhack Summer Open 2014, which had a lot more KR P's and Z's and Taeja won without dropping a map. But still no Zest / Rain / herO / sOs, still no soO / Soulkey / Solar / TRUE, and no other Terran did well.
I'm not saying those tournaments should be dismissed either. Taeja proved that Terran can win. He just didn't prove Terran can win vs the very top P/Z players.
On September 27 2014 22:31 johnbongham wrote: Wait, only forgg left in the top 8 at dreamhack? I thought T was imba now?
The terran lineup was the weakest by far and the strongest one were elimiated by Soo or in TvTs...
Oh no, other races using Terran's own argument against them!
Maybe there's some truth to it?
I agree, weak-ish Terran player pool this tournament compared to Z representation, and Z's doing surprisingly well vP this tournament.
It's the same Terran bonjwa's as always. MMA, jjakji, Polt all were there (Taeja not, but one is always missing). The only outstanding non-regular tournament attandees here are Classic, herO and soO. And nearly every tournament has some of those. The situation at this tournament is not that different to the other ones
Terrans won those tournaments because someone wins when good players play against each other. But it was neither to expected, nor unexpected (judging by playerquality). If we went through each tournament in detail, there'd be some where a Terran won and Terran had the best lineup, and some where a Terran won but some other race had a better lineup. And some where no Terran won to begin with.
Bomber, Flash, Innovation are also missing and often travel (although maybe Innovation wont be travelling as much now?). So are Maru, Cure and Reality but they don't travel outside of Korea often (I think?).
And in the past Terran's were arguing that when Taeja (the best Terran at the time aside from possibly Maru) won a tournament (such as HSC IX) with low Z / P representation (MC, Patience, Stork, Jaedong, Scarlett, Snute being the 3 best of their respective races at the tournament), it wasn't that Terran was suddenly doing well, it was that Taeja was just outplaying his opponents. In a tournament with Zest / Rain / herO / soO / Soulkey / Solar, Terran's were arguing Taeja's chances of winning would have been much worse.
Now I'm just saying that a tournament with normal Terran representation missing a lot of the big name Terrans with top Z/P representation doesn't mean Terran isn't too strong atm, it just means the Top Z/P players are capable of winning vs MMA / ForGG / Jjakji / Polt (and especially with Polt and MMA, the two I would say are potentially in the Top5 of Terran players atm, falling out in TvT).
My point is that Taeja won a tournament with: Zest, INnoVation, TRUE, Solar, Life in it. Amongst many other players that could surprise. You wouldn't say before the tournament you expect Taeja to take it, right? My point is that Flash won a tournament with: Zest, Life, sOs, Taeja in it. Amongst many other players that might upset him. You wouldn't say that the chances that a Terran wins that tournament are bigger than a non-Terran, right? My point is that Bomber won Red Bull and the other two Terrans placed 2nd and 3rd. With 4 non-Terran Code S players like Parting, sOs or DRG in it. Would you really say it was more probable for a Terran to win, than for a non-Terran?
My point is in good half of the tournaments won by a Terran the argument that the Terran who won was the outstanding favorite is wrong to begin with and in the other half of the tournaments the non-Terrans were not so shabby (and still outnumbering the Terran players), that it would again be foolish to say that those Terrans obviously had much better chances to begin with. Thus dismissing these tournaments, pretending they were cakewalks for the winners, is just not right when talking about balance.
You mean all of the post patch tournaments? (Taeja's win in IEM IX Shenzen was post patch, same with Flash's win in IEM Toronto IX) I'm talking about Terran arguments for Terran being underpowered prior to the patch when Taeja was the only Terran winning anything. Terran players were saying even Taeja wouldn't be winning, or at least not as convincingly, if those tournaments had had top Z / P representation.
I'm actually saying this tournament does not prove that Terran is not too strong / overpowered atm, because Z/P representation is stronger than T representation.
If you mean the RBBG prior to the patch, where Bomber/Polt got 1st / 2nd- The best Protoss was HuK and the best Zerg was violet, who lost in a very close 3-2 against Bomber in the semis.
A better argument would be for Dreamhack Summer Open 2014, which had a lot more KR P's and Z's and Taeja won without dropping a map. But still no Zest / Rain / herO / sOs, still no soO / Soulkey / Solar / TRUE, and no other Terran did well.
I'm not saying those tournaments should be dismissed either. Taeja proved that Terran can win. He just didn't prove Terran can win vs the very top P/Z players.
IEM Shenzhen was pre-patch.
Was it? My bad then. Makes Taeja's run even more impressive though :D
Did soO actually get better than other zergs or is this a case of him being the only zerg player whose circumstances were suited to playing sc2 at a high level?
Life is known for playing a stubborn style and not practicing. Effort retired just after he started to become a very good sc2 player. Jaedong left the kespa environment that made him thrive. Soulkey seemed to have burned out in 2014 or something. Players like Solar, TRUE, Hydra and Rogue were worse than soO to begin with.
It reminds me of Cadel Evans who, after a decade of competing in cycling, finally won the Tour de France only because all his competitors happened to have bad form that year. Evans himself just gave the usual excellent performance.
I'm just curious why Soulkey is so much worse than soO now. I don't know if it's personal factors or if the game changed to suit one player's style more. There was the argument that DRG's bad performance during the patchzerg era was because the game was more strategical, while his resurgence in 2013 was because of the mechanical demands placed on facing the widow mine bio style.
As an example of zerg players (an exceptionally good one) in 2013.
I compare soO's gameplay to that and he comes up short. To be honest, so do pretty much all terrans in tvz. Just need time for players to get used to the builds again, and we should see a resurgence of amazing mechanics.
As an example of zerg players (an exceptionally good one) in 2013.
I compare soO's gameplay to that and he comes up short. To be honest, so do pretty much all terrans in tvz. Just need time for players to get used to the builds again, and we should see a resurgence of amazing mechanics.
Zergs dont get in this economical position these days as far as I have seen. I think between reaper openings, banshees, 2base hellbat timings and the first Terran push being way better due to hellbats it has become incredible hard to get the creep spread going and a fourth base up. I really hope soO can showcase some macro play with 80 fast drones against Innovation. I'm just not getting there these days, nor have I seen cases of this in proplay - as was pretty standard before the first WM nerf.
As an example of zerg players (an exceptionally good one) in 2013.
I compare soO's gameplay to that and he comes up short. To be honest, so do pretty much all terrans in tvz. Just need time for players to get used to the builds again, and we should see a resurgence of amazing mechanics.
Zergs dont get in this economical position these days as far as I have seen. I think between reaper openings, banshees, 2base hellbat timings and the first Terran push being way better due to hellbats it has become incredible hard to get the creep spread going and a fourth base up. I really hope soO can showcase some macro play with 80 fast drones against Innovation. I'm just not getting there these days, nor have I seen cases of this in proplay - as was pretty standard before the first WM nerf.
Zergs have gotten lazy tbh, they couldn't get away with half the shit they do now 1 year ago in zvt.
As an example of zerg players (an exceptionally good one) in 2013.
I compare soO's gameplay to that and he comes up short. To be honest, so do pretty much all terrans in tvz. Just need time for players to get used to the builds again, and we should see a resurgence of amazing mechanics.
Zergs dont get in this economical position these days as far as I have seen. I think between reaper openings, banshees, 2base hellbat timings and the first Terran push being way better due to hellbats it has become incredible hard to get the creep spread going and a fourth base up. I really hope soO can showcase some macro play with 80 fast drones against Innovation. I'm just not getting there these days, nor have I seen cases of this in proplay - as was pretty standard before the first WM nerf.
The hellbat push can be scouted by looking for an early armory. If a Terran player doesn't do damage with that push, the player falls behind on tech due to delayed engineering bays.
Same with banshees, and reaper openers are both handled by making extra queens, and both put the Terran player behind if it fails to get any results.
Given the nature of the larvae mechanic, which allows Zergs to boost their income exponentially without any pressure, this relationship is acceptable. The onus is on the Terran to inflict damage on the Zerg.
As an example of zerg players (an exceptionally good one) in 2013.
I compare soO's gameplay to that and he comes up short. To be honest, so do pretty much all terrans in tvz. Just need time for players to get used to the builds again, and we should see a resurgence of amazing mechanics.
Zergs dont get in this economical position these days as far as I have seen. I think between reaper openings, banshees, 2base hellbat timings and the first Terran push being way better due to hellbats it has become incredible hard to get the creep spread going and a fourth base up. I really hope soO can showcase some macro play with 80 fast drones against Innovation. I'm just not getting there these days, nor have I seen cases of this in proplay - as was pretty standard before the first WM nerf.
The hellbat push can be scouted by looking for an early armory. If a Terran player doesn't do damage with that push, the player falls behind on tech due to delayed engineering bays.
Same with banshees, and reaper openers are both handled by making extra queens, and both put the Terran player behind if it fails to get any results.
Given the nature of the larvae mechanic, which allows Zergs to boost their income exponentially without any pressure, this relationship is acceptable. The onus is on the Terran to inflict damage on the Zerg.
Reapers is not true. There is hardly any reason not to go reapers, the delay on the third alone is worth it for Terrans. Not to mention all the extra greed if you have full information. Hellbat push is obviously semiallin, but these extra aggressive capabilities cost zerg extra overlord sacrifices compared to pre-WM nerfs. Hellbats in the initial medivac/hellion/marine push are the one really big change. E.g. look at the first map in the curious video above. If that first push has 6hellbats instead of 6hellions, curious zerglings instadie and do not keep fighting while the marines kite back against the banelings. You need quite a more defensive setup at that poimt now.
As an example of zerg players (an exceptionally good one) in 2013.
I compare soO's gameplay to that and he comes up short. To be honest, so do pretty much all terrans in tvz. Just need time for players to get used to the builds again, and we should see a resurgence of amazing mechanics.
Zergs dont get in this economical position these days as far as I have seen. I think between reaper openings, banshees, 2base hellbat timings and the first Terran push being way better due to hellbats it has become incredible hard to get the creep spread going and a fourth base up. I really hope soO can showcase some macro play with 80 fast drones against Innovation. I'm just not getting there these days, nor have I seen cases of this in proplay - as was pretty standard before the first WM nerf.
The hellbat push can be scouted by looking for an early armory. If a Terran player doesn't do damage with that push, the player falls behind on tech due to delayed engineering bays.
Same with banshees, and reaper openers are both handled by making extra queens, and both put the Terran player behind if it fails to get any results.
Given the nature of the larvae mechanic, which allows Zergs to boost their income exponentially without any pressure, this relationship is acceptable. The onus is on the Terran to inflict damage on the Zerg.
Reapers is not true. There is hardly any reason not to go reapers, the delay on the third alone is worth it for Terrans. Not to mention all the extra greed if you have full information. Hellbat push is obviously semiallin, but these extra aggressive capabilities cost zerg extra overlord sacrifices compared to pre-WM nerfs. Hellbats in the initial medivac/hellion/marine push are the one really big change. E.g. look at the first map in the curious video above. If that first push has 6hellbats instead of 6hellions, curious zerglings instadie and do not keep fighting while the marines kite back against the banelings. You need quite a more defensive setup at that poimt now.
The 21 3cc parade push doesn't get an armory that early, more over, it can't get an armory that early and be the same effective style.
As an example of zerg players (an exceptionally good one) in 2013.
I compare soO's gameplay to that and he comes up short. To be honest, so do pretty much all terrans in tvz. Just need time for players to get used to the builds again, and we should see a resurgence of amazing mechanics.
Zergs dont get in this economical position these days as far as I have seen. I think between reaper openings, banshees, 2base hellbat timings and the first Terran push being way better due to hellbats it has become incredible hard to get the creep spread going and a fourth base up. I really hope soO can showcase some macro play with 80 fast drones against Innovation. I'm just not getting there these days, nor have I seen cases of this in proplay - as was pretty standard before the first WM nerf.
The hellbat push can be scouted by looking for an early armory. If a Terran player doesn't do damage with that push, the player falls behind on tech due to delayed engineering bays.
Same with banshees, and reaper openers are both handled by making extra queens, and both put the Terran player behind if it fails to get any results.
Given the nature of the larvae mechanic, which allows Zergs to boost their income exponentially without any pressure, this relationship is acceptable. The onus is on the Terran to inflict damage on the Zerg.
Reapers is not true. There is hardly any reason not to go reapers, the delay on the third alone is worth it for Terrans. Not to mention all the extra greed if you have full information. Hellbat push is obviously semiallin, but these extra aggressive capabilities cost zerg extra overlord sacrifices compared to pre-WM nerfs. Hellbats in the initial medivac/hellion/marine push are the one really big change. E.g. look at the first map in the curious video above. If that first push has 6hellbats instead of 6hellions, curious zerglings instadie and do not keep fighting while the marines kite back against the banelings. You need quite a more defensive setup at that poimt now.
The 21 3cc parade push doesn't get an armory that early, more over, it can't get an armory that early and be the same effective style.
Yes it does... 11 minute 1/1 stim / CS Medivac push invcludes an armory as a standard part of the build, because that's when you're starting 2/2.
But 6 Hellbats instead of 6 Hellions would not have let innovation crush that, and in no way would the hellbats have killed all the lings...
If you watch the vod all the hellions are dead by the time the armory is complete. The first push out occurs before 11 minutes.
A ton of the strength of the parade push was because it hit before zergs could get to x amount of drones and still have an army, waiting another 30-40 seconds would be disastrous to the first push, and even if it was possible you're right - 6 hellbats instead of hellions would make almost no difference.
On September 28 2014 12:39 xelnaga_empire wrote: Another ZvsZ finals. Zerg looked very strong at Dreamhack. All the Terran in the Ro16 that met a Zerg just got annihilated.
Yes. Bunny got 2-1 annihilated by the winner of the tournament and Ryung lost to SoO which was a total surprise to everyone. How can a korean terran lose if not because imba?!?!!?!
On September 29 2014 03:08 Scrubwave wrote: The fact that something like the scv pull in tvp is something "normal" and not cheese crap done only by Bitbybits is sad.
i think both terrans and protoss agrees with you but sadly its the best way to win before late game for terrans. so your going to have to deal with it till terrans figure something else out or toss late game gets a nerf (which wont happen).. maybe try mech out and hope they dont scout lol. unless your toss then just scout a lot and chrono that storm lol.
EPT
