EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1116
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26457 Posts
There's actually more variation in TvP styles shown by a whole bunch of players than is credited by many IMO. Taeja - Almost plays for the lategame, such is his confidence in his MMMVG control (especially his phenomenal Ghost control) Maru - When looking his best in TvP played pretty much relentless Bio pushes from the midgame onwards. Polt - Tried to almost circumvent the army entirely and snipe bases Bbyong - Tried to Mech it happen Etc etc | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On September 29 2014 05:02 Grumbels wrote: Are scv pulls common in brood war? The structure of terran in bw & hots is more or less the same, and scvs are even stronger. I can't remember ever seeing it in pro level though, but maybe they were figured out and not sufficient to win (but still a strong option)? Of course there are other differences between bw & sc2 but I'd like to hear opinions. in sc2 you have mules to fuel your economy for a bit longer. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On September 29 2014 05:02 Grumbels wrote: Are scv pulls common in brood war? The structure of terran in bw & hots is more or less the same, and scvs are even stronger. I can't remember ever seeing it in pro level though, but maybe they were figured out and not sufficient to win (but still a strong option)? Of course there are other differences between bw & sc2 but I'd like to hear opinions. They have never in the history been working to attack other than the 2rax marine+scv rush. On paper they look the pretty much the same but that is not the case. Workers in broodwar have a very weird movement which makes them really hard to use overall. Its their acceleration/decelleration or something. 4Lings running through the protoss wall=game ending since the workers are very hard to micro. If you watch bisu it might look like its easy but in fact, its really hard. There is no autorepair in broodwar, and their movement is really weird. That is why they were nerfed in starbow btw since there, they could be used in other ways which wasnt possible in broodwar. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2656 Posts
On September 29 2014 05:02 Grumbels wrote: Are scv pulls common in brood war? The structure of terran in bw & hots is more or less the same, and scvs are even stronger. I can't remember ever seeing it in pro level though, but maybe they were figured out and not sufficient to win (but still a strong option)? Of course there are other differences between bw & sc2 but I'd like to hear opinions. Pulling SCVs was done for proxys and other cheeses, however it wasn't done in the same way that in SC2, SCVs would just die to tank and spider mines friendly fire if they were used for 2 base timings altough they were pulled for repairs sometimes | ||
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daboss9635
Canada21 Posts
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On September 29 2014 04:25 Wombat_NI wrote: It's a stylistic thing, some are more prone to boy pulling than others. Flash used to regularly do them and Bomber loves it. There's actually more variation in TvP styles shown by a whole bunch of players than is credited by many IMO. Taeja - Almost plays for the lategame, such is his confidence in his MMMVG control (especially his phenomenal Ghost control) Maru - When looking his best in TvP played pretty much relentless Bio pushes from the midgame onwards. Polt - Tried to almost circumvent the army entirely and snipe bases Bbyong - Tried to Mech it happen Etc etc Taeja doesn't really play for the lategame much imo. He tends to try to max out with a good composition and then hit a timing before Protoss has the unbeatable number of flanking templar/cannons/huge warpgate count. His play isn't geared toward lategame (no massing of orbitals early on, no early fourth, no double ups.) He seems to just want to max out with 16 vikings, 10 ghosts, bio, and medivacs by around 17 minutes, push, and win. No high level korean terrans play specifically for the lategame. Even those who seem comfortable in it, like YoDa, still try to end it before Protoss gets to the 4 bases, cannons and high templars everywhere, insta-win if Terran doesn't have 40 supply left after a battle stage. | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On September 29 2014 07:23 daboss9635 wrote: Hey guys it's me daboss here, and I was wondering. Do you guys think that it would be a beneficial if forcefields would be destroyed if casted on an enemy building? It kind of violates the equal rule-set rule that Blizz have in SC2. In this case that a "neutral" spell would work differently on enemy and friendly buildings. | ||
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
On September 29 2014 21:29 TokO wrote: It kind of violates the equal rule-set rule that Blizz have in SC2. In this case that a "neutral" spell would work differently on enemy and friendly buildings. Well that rule does not apply everywhere from what i know. Just think about collossus and tanks applying splash damage to friend units and enemy units. | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On September 29 2014 21:35 _Epi_ wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2014 21:29 TokO wrote: It kind of violates the equal rule-set rule that Blizz have in SC2. In this case that a "neutral" spell would work differently on enemy and friendly buildings. Well that rule does not apply everywhere from what i know. Just think about collossus and tanks applying splash damage to friend units and enemy units. I think tank splash is a little bit different, as you probably have a main attack portion and a neutral splash portion. The whole beam of a colossus is part of the main animation, and therefore only does damage to enemies. Same is with Ultralisks, they splash only enemy units. Instead, I'd compare storms and blinding clouds with forcefields. They all affect both sides regardless of who casts them. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26457 Posts
On September 29 2014 07:48 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: Taeja doesn't really play for the lategame much imo. He tends to try to max out with a good composition and then hit a timing before Protoss has the unbeatable number of flanking templar/cannons/huge warpgate count. His play isn't geared toward lategame (no massing of orbitals early on, no early fourth, no double ups.) He seems to just want to max out with 16 vikings, 10 ghosts, bio, and medivacs by around 17 minutes, push, and win. No high level korean terrans play specifically for the lategame. Even those who seem comfortable in it, like YoDa, still try to end it before Protoss gets to the 4 bases, cannons and high templars everywhere, insta-win if Terran doesn't have 40 supply left after a battle stage. I agree with your points there, I would just consider the mass orbital style etc as more geared towards the ill-defined 'super lategame' | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 29 2014 22:02 Wombat_NI wrote: I agree with your points there, I would just consider the mass orbital style etc as more geared towards the ill-defined 'super lategame' I've never heard of terran only hitting late game *if* they're mass producing Orbitals. I've heard of it as a "OMG He's massing orbitals! Nerd Chills!" that casters love doing, but not as a "this is how we know terran has hit the late game" | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On September 29 2014 23:03 Thieving Magpie wrote: I've never heard of terran only hitting late game *if* they're mass producing Orbitals. I've heard of it as a "OMG He's massing orbitals! Nerd Chills!" that casters love doing, but not as a "this is how we know terran has hit the late game" I meant mostly that by not doing things like producing orbitals, Taeja doesn't intend to play beyond 20 minutes. He doesn't want to go into a long-term lategame army dance. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Protoss needs to keep a certain amount of supply in Probes the whole time to keep their economy going. So when you say "Terran is dead if he doesn't finish an engagement with 40 supply left" it's actually not as bad as it sounds. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On September 29 2014 21:35 _Epi_ wrote: Well that rule does not apply everywhere from what i know. Just think about collossus and tanks applying splash damage to friend units and enemy units. Collosi don't have friendly splash. Splash with Friendly Fire; T: Sieged Tanks, EMP, Nuke, Seeker Missile, Widow Mines P: Psionic Storm Z: Blinding Cloud Splash without Friendly Fire: T: Hellions, Hellbats, Thor Aerial Attack P: Archon, Collosi Z: Banelings (That'd be fun  ), Fungal, Ultralisk, Mutalisk BounceI think I got them all now. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26457 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 29 2014 23:56 SC2Toastie wrote: Collosi don't have friendly splash. Splash with Friendly Fire; T: Sieged Tanks, EMP, Nuke, Seeker Missile, Widow Mines P: Psionic Storm Z: Blinding Cloud Splash without Friendly Fire: T: Hellions, Hellbats, Thor Aerial Attack P: Archon, Collosi Z: Banelings (That'd be fun ), Fungal, Ultralisk, Mutalisk BounceI think I got them all now. Banelings with friendly splash would be unusable. Colossus can't have friendly fire because friendly Zealots (melee) would melt instantly. Tanks can have friendly fire because Marines are ranged). I think it's just good game design. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 29 2014 23:58 Wombat_NI wrote: Even when Terran get to the SCV-saccing stage it's no guarantee, more due to a slower remax than Protoss can manage at that stage/Protoss using Warp Prisms to get in top of production facilities. With ~40 supply you should be able to clear up warpins on your production facilities. Sure Protoss can theoretically remax faster... but if Terran ends the fight with enough army left there's nothing P can do. Gateway units alone aren't accomplishing anything and Colossus/Templar take time to get ready. Again, it all comes down to how the last fight goes down. The Protoss remax is useless against a big enough Terran bio ball because it's all Zealots/Stalkers and no Colossus/Storm. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 29 2014 04:25 Wombat_NI wrote: It's a stylistic thing, some are more prone to boy pulling than others. Flash used to regularly do them and Bomber loves it. There's actually more variation in TvP styles shown by a whole bunch of players than is credited by many IMO. Taeja - Almost plays for the lategame, such is his confidence in his MMMVG control (especially his phenomenal Ghost control) Maru - When looking his best in TvP played pretty much relentless Bio pushes from the midgame onwards. Polt - Tried to almost circumvent the army entirely and snipe bases Bbyong - Tried to Mech it happen Etc etc Taeja is a God at sniping observers. I think that's what makes him good (along with his ghost control). Polt's TvP is kind of funny. He's just flying around sniping Nexuses until he has enough army advantage. Maru skips/delays Ghost/Viking to constantly trade against his opponent's splash damage. It's a style that says "my mechanics are better than yours." Lol bbyong "mechin it happen." | ||
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