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On October 03 2014 20:11 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 19:38 Karpfen wrote:
With a 15 pool you have no excuse for losing a hatchery to a 10 pool. I think if you do a very economical one you still have to give up the hatch. And of course if the boys are coming.
Even still you lose the hatch, you get all drones to safety. 2-4Queens on nat ramp. Lose the hatch... Ok.. the guy ten pool. You have twice is drone count. You build some ling, re-expand. You are still ahead.
Then baneling comes and you don't watch minimap and insta lose :p
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On October 03 2014 20:13 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 20:11 Big J wrote:On October 03 2014 19:38 Karpfen wrote:
With a 15 pool you have no excuse for losing a hatchery to a 10 pool. I think if you do a very economical one you still have to give up the hatch. And of course if the boys are coming. Even still you lose the hatch, you get all drones to safety. 2-4Queens on nat ramp. Lose the hatch... Ok.. the guy ten pool. You have twice is drone count. You build some ling, re-expand. You are still ahead. Then baneling comes and you don't watch minimap and insta lose :p
Closer to 2-3 drones ahead, and a hatch behind and the opponent has all the knowledge while you should have none.
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On October 03 2014 20:28 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 20:13 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 03 2014 20:11 Big J wrote:On October 03 2014 19:38 Karpfen wrote:
With a 15 pool you have no excuse for losing a hatchery to a 10 pool. I think if you do a very economical one you still have to give up the hatch. And of course if the boys are coming. Even still you lose the hatch, you get all drones to safety. 2-4Queens on nat ramp. Lose the hatch... Ok.. the guy ten pool. You have twice is drone count. You build some ling, re-expand. You are still ahead. Then baneling comes and you don't watch minimap and insta lose :p Closer to 2-3 drones ahead, and a hatch behind and the opponent has all the knowledge while you should have none.
But 10pool is 9 drone. You hatch at 15. so you should at least be 6drones ahead. A queen ahead. If the guy expand with a ten pool he shouldn't have many drones nor queens since he spend in lings no ? Or am i mistaken ? I don't recall if 10pool hits before the nat finishes if so... (you're just 6drones ahead so yeah.. not that big advantage)
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On October 03 2014 20:38 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 20:28 bo1b wrote:On October 03 2014 20:13 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 03 2014 20:11 Big J wrote:On October 03 2014 19:38 Karpfen wrote:
With a 15 pool you have no excuse for losing a hatchery to a 10 pool. I think if you do a very economical one you still have to give up the hatch. And of course if the boys are coming. Even still you lose the hatch, you get all drones to safety. 2-4Queens on nat ramp. Lose the hatch... Ok.. the guy ten pool. You have twice is drone count. You build some ling, re-expand. You are still ahead. Then baneling comes and you don't watch minimap and insta lose :p Closer to 2-3 drones ahead, and a hatch behind and the opponent has all the knowledge while you should have none. But 10pool is 9 drone. You hatch at 15. so you should at least be 6drones ahead. A queen ahead. If the guy expand with a ten pool he shouldn't have many drones nor queens since he spend in lings no ? Or am i mistaken ? I don't recall if 10pool hits before the nat finishes if so... (you're just 6drones ahead so yeah.. not that big advantage)
The usual 10pools will have 2drones+1Overlord+3larva done when the pool finishes @2:15 and can soon after start a queen (so the 10poolers queen is done before yours even starts).
If you do my version of it (which I haven't seen anybody do yet on prolevel or in games, hence I'm claiming it) you will have even one extra drone. 
So usually your opponent will have 11drones+1queen+6zerglings and whatever he does from there and can quite soon afford a natural hatchery or a second queen.
A 15hatch/15pool has up to 17drones @3:35 when your pool is done, but probably only 14-15 because you need to store larva and you might have taken a gas.
If you lose your hatchery and your opponent stopped at something like 10zerglings, got a hatchery and didn't make any macro mistakes he is ahead, unless of course some form of tech shannenigans puts you ahead.
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On October 03 2014 21:17 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 20:38 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 03 2014 20:28 bo1b wrote:On October 03 2014 20:13 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 03 2014 20:11 Big J wrote:On October 03 2014 19:38 Karpfen wrote:
With a 15 pool you have no excuse for losing a hatchery to a 10 pool. I think if you do a very economical one you still have to give up the hatch. And of course if the boys are coming. Even still you lose the hatch, you get all drones to safety. 2-4Queens on nat ramp. Lose the hatch... Ok.. the guy ten pool. You have twice is drone count. You build some ling, re-expand. You are still ahead. Then baneling comes and you don't watch minimap and insta lose :p Closer to 2-3 drones ahead, and a hatch behind and the opponent has all the knowledge while you should have none. But 10pool is 9 drone. You hatch at 15. so you should at least be 6drones ahead. A queen ahead. If the guy expand with a ten pool he shouldn't have many drones nor queens since he spend in lings no ? Or am i mistaken ? I don't recall if 10pool hits before the nat finishes if so... (you're just 6drones ahead so yeah.. not that big advantage) The usual 10pools will have 2drones+1Overlord+3larva done when the pool finishes @2:15 and can soon after start a queen (so the 10poolers queen is done before yours even starts). If you do my version of it (which I haven't seen anybody do yet on prolevel or in games, hence I'm claiming it) you will have even one extra drone. So usually your opponent will have 11drones+1queen+6zerglings and whatever he does from there and can quite soon afford a natural hatchery or a second queen. A 15hatch/15pool has up to 17drones @3:35 when your pool is done, but probably only 14-15 because you need to store larva and you might have taken a gas. If you lose your hatchery and your opponent stopped at something like 10zerglings, got a hatchery and didn't make any macro mistakes he is ahead, unless of course some form of tech shannenigans puts you ahead.
Oh ok. I only see guys that spamms zergling while having 9drones. But i think you are in higher league than me :p
I always hatch first anyway. If 10pool... Whatever, that's not a CW i just leave and go play a better game (preferably ZvP) :p
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On October 03 2014 20:11 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 19:38 Karpfen wrote:
With a 15 pool you have no excuse for losing a hatchery to a 10 pool. I think if you do a very economical one you still have to give up the hatch. And of course if the boys are coming.
What do you mean by an economical one?
Like 15 pool 16 hatch instead of 14 pool 15 hatch?
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On October 04 2014 00:42 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 20:11 Big J wrote:On October 03 2014 19:38 Karpfen wrote:
With a 15 pool you have no excuse for losing a hatchery to a 10 pool. I think if you do a very economical one you still have to give up the hatch. And of course if the boys are coming. What do you mean by an economical one? Like 15 pool 16 hatch instead of 14 pool 15 hatch?
I think one that gets its third overlord after the queen and thus more drones faster, i.e. around 17-18 supply and deals with the supply block by taking a gas after OL is started will have a larva/supply problem when the initial 6lings hit.
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Canada11355 Posts
I usually beat 10pool with 14g/14p speedling all-in, is this because my opponents are doin' it wrong?
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On October 04 2014 13:18 Fecalfeast wrote:
I usually beat 10pool with 14g/14p speedling all-in, is this because my opponents are doin' it wrong?
not really :L tbh 10 pools and earlier are generally used to kill/heavily damage a hatch first in general, the fact you go pool first already makes it an easy hold, 14/14 literally makes it a freewin :L especially if its gassless 10p
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Northern Ireland26434 Posts
I await the return of the great 2 rax debate
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On October 05 2014 00:33 Wombat_NI wrote:
I await the return of the great 2 rax debate
Haha yeah, I'm surprised no one posted something about it yet. Where's the great LSN when we need it!
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Well, not much to say about that, soO was going to consolidate that Kong position regardless of strategies played.
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To be honest it would be great to have some statistics on how often 2-rax succeeded in top tournaments. Pretty sure it has really high success rate. Whether it´s imba or not it´s hard to say. Personally i would say it´s a bit too strong.
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On October 05 2014 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:
To be honest it would be great to have some statistics on how often 2-rax succeeded in top tournaments. Pretty sure it has really high success rate. Whether it´s imba or not it´s hard to say. Personally i would say it´s a bit too strong.
I don't care if its imba or not, its just terrible for viewers as these builds always sneak into BO5+.
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On October 05 2014 06:51 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:
To be honest it would be great to have some statistics on how often 2-rax succeeded in top tournaments. Pretty sure it has really high success rate. Whether it´s imba or not it´s hard to say. Personally i would say it´s a bit too strong.
I don't care if its imba or not, its just terrible for viewers as these builds always sneak into BO5+.
How is it terrible for viewers regardless of balance? I actually think it is nice to have some terran cheeses too.
Is it too strong and should be adjusted? IDK, maybe. But not every game needs to be a macro game, diversity is nice.
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On October 05 2014 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:
To be honest it would be great to have some statistics on how often 2-rax succeeded in top tournaments. Pretty sure it has really high success rate. Whether it´s imba or not it´s hard to say. Personally i would say it´s a bit too strong.
And let's do a tally on successful Baneling busts while we're at it! Those are pretty good too.
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On October 05 2014 07:09 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:
To be honest it would be great to have some statistics on how often 2-rax succeeded in top tournaments. Pretty sure it has really high success rate. Whether it´s imba or not it´s hard to say. Personally i would say it´s a bit too strong. And let's do a tally on successful Baneling busts while we're at it! Those are pretty good too.
With the slight difference that when a baneling bust fails, the zerg is actually dead.
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On October 05 2014 07:54 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 07:09 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 05 2014 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:
To be honest it would be great to have some statistics on how often 2-rax succeeded in top tournaments. Pretty sure it has really high success rate. Whether it´s imba or not it´s hard to say. Personally i would say it´s a bit too strong. And let's do a tally on successful Baneling busts while we're at it! Those are pretty good too. With the slight difference that when a baneling bust fails, the zerg is actually dead.
If u fail a 2rax, ure pretty much dead as well. :D Theres also the option that some damage has been done and then it was defended which is pretty different from failing.
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On October 05 2014 07:54 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 07:09 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 05 2014 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:
To be honest it would be great to have some statistics on how often 2-rax succeeded in top tournaments. Pretty sure it has really high success rate. Whether it´s imba or not it´s hard to say. Personally i would say it´s a bit too strong. And let's do a tally on successful Baneling busts while we're at it! Those are pretty good too. With the slight difference that when a baneling bust fails, the zerg is actually dead.
Of course, we'll take that into account!
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On October 05 2014 07:54 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 07:09 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 05 2014 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:
To be honest it would be great to have some statistics on how often 2-rax succeeded in top tournaments. Pretty sure it has really high success rate. Whether it´s imba or not it´s hard to say. Personally i would say it´s a bit too strong. And let's do a tally on successful Baneling busts while we're at it! Those are pretty good too. With the slight difference that when a baneling bust fails, the zerg is actually dead.
Please specify what constitutes a 'fail' bust? One that don't break through depots? That's very much a control mistake. That's like 2 rax player getting his marines trapped between rally to bunker.
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EPT
