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On October 05 2014 21:41 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 21:28 Maniak_ wrote:On October 05 2014 10:00 plogamer wrote:
If not proxied, 2 rax can be scouted by a drone, ez pz. Sure, because overlords can scout all possible places on the map where 2 barracks can be built. Maybe if they were not slower than terran flying buildings? Im not into your whole "2rax to cheap to strong" discussion, but when a zerg calles overlords to slow for scouting, he should think about how other races scout in early game and use this unique technic too. And maybe you should compare the 2rax more with early pools ( 10 or 11 pool ) then with a bane bust all in. Costs you only mins, hits at around the same timing and doesnt bring you that far behind if you play it well behind even when for example the terran has a full wall off. Then his exe is denied till he has hellions and that takes more time then any terran wants to see going by. You can compare the 2rax scv-pull with a bane bust, because it is a 100% all in.
I'm not saying 2 racks is too strong, but you can't compare 2 racks with 10p. 10p is much easier to defend, there is nothing 10p player can try to do better against right response. You most of the time will be playing against reaper expand so you can't delay his expansion, unless you go for speed as well which is just bad.
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When raven would be nerfed ? PDD is utterly broken vs Zerg, as he counter every zerg units
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On October 05 2014 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:
To be honest it would be great to have some statistics on how often 2-rax succeeded in top tournaments. Pretty sure it has really high success rate.
Based on Korean Terran games I saw the last few months:
From 16 July* to the end of the month: 3 wins 5 losses
August: 7 wins 6 losses
September: 5 wins 4 losses
October so far: 3 wins 3 losses
Occurrence: 36 instances out of 431 TvZ = 8.3%
Winrate: 18 wins 18 losses = 50%
* Don't have data before
+ Show Spoiler [Data] +JulyJourney vs Jaedong, Merry, The Big One Group stage  SuperNova vs TLO, Overgrowth, The Big One Group stage MMA vs Revival, Overgrowth, The Big One Group stage  MMA vs Revival, Nimbus, The Big One Group stage SuperNova vs Life, Overgrowth, The Big One RO8 Maru vs Sleep, Overgrowth, Proleague Playoffs jjakji vs Sacsri, Merry, IEM Toronto Europe qualifier Apocalypse vs bly, King Sejong, Red Bull Battlegrounds Global Qualifier #3 AugustCenter vs Life, Merry, Dragon Invitational #4 KeeN vs RagnaroK, Merry, Dragon Invitational #4 KeeN vs RagnaroK, Overgrowth, Dragon Invitational #4 Bogus vs Snute, Deadwing, Destiny I Center vs RagnaroK, Merry, Dragon Invitational #4 Bogus vs Life, Merry, Destiny I Bogus vs Life, Deadwing, Destiny I Center vs RagnaroK, Deadwing, Pughcraft Invitational Center vs RagnaroK, Overgrowth, Pughcraft Invitational Bogus vs Leenock, King Sejong, Acer vs yoeFW Showmatch Flash vs Dark, King Sejong, Code S RO32 Flash vs Solar, Overgrowth, Code S RO32 Bogus vs RagnaroK, King Sejong, Summer S SeptemberFlash vs TRUE, Deadwing, Code S RO16 Journey vs Revival, Overgrowth, OlimoLeague Week #5 MMA vs HyuN, Overgrowth, MSI Beat It Europe Qualifier LR4 Maru vs Dark, Deadwing, MSI Beat It Korean Qualifier #2 RO8 MMA vs Snute, Deadwing, DH Moscow RO4 MMA vs Snute, Merry, DH Moscow RO4 Center vs Revival, Overgrowth, OlimoLeague Week #6 RO16 MarineKing vs Armani, Merry, OlimoLeague Week #7 Final ForGG vs Sacsri, King Sejong, DH Stockhlom Group Stage 3 OctoberBogus vs soO, Foxtrot, Code S Final Bogus vs soO, Merry, Code S Final GuMiho vs Leenock, Overgrowth, Leifeng Cup 16 MarineKing vs LosirA, Merry, Leifeng Cup 16 GuMiho vs LosirA, King Sejong, Leifeng Cup 16 GuMiho vs LosirA, Deadwing, Leifeng Cup 16
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On October 05 2014 21:41 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 21:28 Maniak_ wrote:On October 05 2014 10:00 plogamer wrote:
If not proxied, 2 rax can be scouted by a drone, ez pz. Sure, because overlords can scout all possible places on the map where 2 barracks can be built. Maybe if they were not slower than terran flying buildings? Im not into your whole "2rax to cheap to strong" discussion, but when a zerg calles overlords to slow for scouting, he should think about how other races scout in early game and use this unique technic too.And maybe you should compare the 2rax more with early pools ( 10 or 11 pool ) then with a bane bust all in. Costs you only mins, hits at around the same timing and doesnt bring you that far behind if you play it well behind even when for example the terran has a full wall off. Then his exe is denied till he has hellions and that takes more time then any terran wants to see going by. You can compare the 2rax scv-pull with a bane bust, because it is a 100% all in.
I'm just gonna cover this first point:
Zergs scout with overlords, because that's the whole advantage of having overlords. The advantage of pylons is that they build on their own, anywhere on the map and then grant a radius in which you can build units and buildings.
The advantage of supply depots is its lower mechanic and that it can be built anywhere.
On top of that, those two buildings have many more hitpoints. I'ts pretty easy to snipe an overlord with just a few units, but to snipe a supply depot, you usually need a serious mutalisk cloud.
I think in many scenarios - to give an example, ZvZ - Zergs would trade the scouting of overlords against the ability to cheaply wall their bases any day. Also vis-verca. I think Terrans would love to have overlords against Protoss to cover the map and scout without reapers, since the walling isnt the most important thing against P.
To the whole discussion. You absolutly have to throw in that soO went 2 wins of 2 tries with roach/baneling too. There are quite some strong cheese builds out there for both races in the matchup. Is this really a problem? I think in terms of balance it isn't, a well scouting standard player can more often than not get away with an advantage in the grand scale of things (e.g. Innovation against soO in game 6 in which he didn't go through with the cheese after being scanned).
But yes, in terms of game quality - in my opinion - cheap cheese build orders are the biggest problem of the game that turn awesome matchups like soO vs INnoVation or just your average ladder game into such a shit experience. It becomes massively unenjoyable to watch or play when you reach a level where you understand that all those 5 to 10 minutes of the game come down to something like "do I scan in the right place at the right time", or "do I luck out on my overlord/drone scout". At least for me.
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Yeah its complete bull to me also. Its not fun nor interesting. It does not fit an esport game.
Atleast for me.
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On October 06 2014 01:39 Foxxan wrote:
Yeah its complete bull to me also. Its not fun nor interesting. It does not fit an esport game.
Atleast for me.
I think we should really jump into this shift in the discussion.
The 2rax feels super strong when it works, but even in high end play it only works half the time.
What's really being discussed is the role of high aggression plays in an RTS. How much aggression is too much, how much is not enough.
In 2010 a lot of people on TL complained the aggression was too much. In BL/Infestor era the aggression was deemed too low. So how much aggression is good aggression?
Zerg players, when are terrans allowed to attack your base? How many minutes unmolested should a zerg player have that you feel is fair? Lets start with that bench mark and discuss from that starting point.
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Golden vs Yoda, one more 2 rax where the zerg seems clueless on how to defend it
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Talking about this 2 rax problematic I think the biggest problem to it is that it's not as commitive as it should be. In my opinion it would be enough to remove the salvage skill of bunkers, so a Terran definitly has to pay the minerals if he's going to cheese the Zerg. Imagine Protoss could cannonrush every Zerg base with the ability to salvage the cannons. We would see as many cannonrushes in PvZ as bunkerrushes in TvZ.
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On October 06 2014 01:56 Awin wrote:
Golden vs Yoda, one more 2 rax where the zerg seems clueless on how to defend it
Yeah, all the pro Zergs, who play this game 10+ hours a day, and practice against various builds and cheeses, are clueless on how to defend 2-rax.
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On October 06 2014 04:12 KaneMX wrote:
Talking about this 2 rax problematic I think the biggest problem to it is that it's not as commitive as it should be. In my opinion it would be enough to remove the salvage skill of bunkers, so a Terran definitly has to pay the minerals if he's going to cheese the Zerg. Imagine Protoss could cannonrush every Zerg base with the ability to salvage the cannons. We would see as many cannonrushes in PvZ as bunkerrushes in TvZ.
We see as many cannon rushes in pvz as we see bunker rushes in tvz now :D
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why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
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On October 06 2014 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:
why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
And Innovation won a GSL with 2raxes and 2base tank/marine allins and came close to winning one with hellbat allins.(people regularily keep on forfetting what builds Innovation actually used when he got "cheesed out" bx soulkey. Which sorts of builds actually put him in a 3-0 lead)
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On October 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:
To be honest it would be great to have some statistics on how often 2-rax succeeded in top tournaments. Pretty sure it has really high success rate. Based on Korean Terran games I saw the last few months: From 16 July* to the end of the month: 3 wins 5 losses August: 7 wins 6 losses September: 5 wins 4 losses October so far: 3 wins 3 losses Occurrence: 36 instances out of 431 TvZ = 8.3% Winrate: 18 wins 18 losses = 50% * Don't have data before + Show Spoiler [Data] +JulyJourney vs Jaedong, Merry, The Big One Group stage SuperNova vs TLO, Overgrowth, The Big One Group stage MMA vs Revival, Overgrowth, The Big One Group stage MMA vs Revival, Nimbus, The Big One Group stage SuperNova vs Life, Overgrowth, The Big One RO8 Maru vs Sleep, Overgrowth, Proleague Playoffs jjakji vs Sacsri, Merry, IEM Toronto Europe qualifier Apocalypse vs bly, King Sejong, Red Bull Battlegrounds Global Qualifier #3 AugustCenter vs Life, Merry, Dragon Invitational #4 KeeN vs RagnaroK, Merry, Dragon Invitational #4 KeeN vs RagnaroK, Overgrowth, Dragon Invitational #4 Bogus vs Snute, Deadwing, Destiny I Center vs RagnaroK, Merry, Dragon Invitational #4 Bogus vs Life, Merry, Destiny I Bogus vs Life, Deadwing, Destiny I Center vs RagnaroK, Deadwing, Pughcraft Invitational Center vs RagnaroK, Overgrowth, Pughcraft Invitational Bogus vs Leenock, King Sejong, Acer vs yoeFW Showmatch Flash vs Dark, King Sejong, Code S RO32 Flash vs Solar, Overgrowth, Code S RO32 Bogus vs RagnaroK, King Sejong, Summer S SeptemberFlash vs TRUE, Deadwing, Code S RO16 Journey vs Revival, Overgrowth, OlimoLeague Week #5 MMA vs HyuN, Overgrowth, MSI Beat It Europe Qualifier LR4 Maru vs Dark, Deadwing, MSI Beat It Korean Qualifier #2 RO8 MMA vs Snute, Deadwing, DH Moscow RO4 MMA vs Snute, Merry, DH Moscow RO4 Center vs Revival, Overgrowth, OlimoLeague Week #6 RO16 MarineKing vs Armani, Merry, OlimoLeague Week #7 Final ForGG vs Sacsri, King Sejong, DH Stockhlom Group Stage 3 OctoberBogus vs soO, Foxtrot, Code S Final Bogus vs soO, Merry, Code S Final GuMiho vs Leenock, Overgrowth, Leifeng Cup 16 MarineKing vs LosirA, Merry, Leifeng Cup 16 GuMiho vs LosirA, King Sejong, Leifeng Cup 16 GuMiho vs LosirA, Deadwing, Leifeng Cup 16
Thank you for all the work you put into this!
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On October 06 2014 04:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:
why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
And Innovation won a GSL with 2raxes and 2base tank/marine allins and came close to winning one with hellbat allins.(people regularily keep on forfetting what builds Innovation actually used when he got "cheesed out" bx soulkey. Which sorts of builds actually put him in a 3-0 lead)
Innovation got himself a 3-0 lead using a 2rax and then macro/light pressure builds, which included hellbat drops (which did no damage) into 3CC. I don't know what you are trying to say.
Also, Soo won against Zest with weird builds and crazy allins. Sometimes that's just how the game works.
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Terrans now winning every tournament. A race with powerful cheeses and pressure builds that can all easily end the game, are hard to scout and easy to transition out of. Powerful mid and late game. You know what that reminds of? Protoss before this last patch.
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On October 06 2014 04:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:
why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
And Innovation won a GSL with 2raxes and 2base tank/marine allins and came close to winning one with hellbat allins.(people regularily keep on forfetting what builds Innovation actually used when he got "cheesed out" bx soulkey. Which sorts of builds actually put him in a 3-0 lead)
?? There were no Hellbat all-ins in that series.
Game 1: 2 rax
Game 2: Hellbat drop 3OC
Game 3: initially Hellbat drop, changes direction towards normal 3OC after Soulkey's bane bust
Game 4: 3OC
Game 5: 3OC
Game 6: 2 rax
Game 7: Hellbat drop 3OC
On October 06 2014 05:16 ReMinD_ wrote:
Terrans now winning every tournament. A race with powerful cheeses and pressure builds that can all easily end the game, are hard to scout and easy to transition out of. Powerful mid and late game. You know what that reminds of? Protoss before this last patch.
Hahahaha
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On October 06 2014 05:20 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 04:55 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:
why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
And Innovation won a GSL with 2raxes and 2base tank/marine allins and came close to winning one with hellbat allins.(people regularily keep on forfetting what builds Innovation actually used when he got "cheesed out" bx soulkey. Which sorts of builds actually put him in a 3-0 lead) ?? There were no Hellbat all-ins in that series. Game 1: 2 rax Game 2: Hellbat drop 3OC Game 3: initially Hellbat drop, changes direction towards normal 3OC after Soulkey's bane bust Game 4: 3OC Game 5: 3OC Game 6: 2 rax Game 7: Hellbat drop 3OC Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 05:16 ReMinD_ wrote:
Terrans now winning every tournament. A race with powerful cheeses and pressure builds that can all easily end the game, are hard to scout and easy to transition out of. Powerful mid and late game. You know what that reminds of? Protoss before this last patch. Hahahaha
You consider terran mid and late game weak? It must be that korean terran magic then why they are winning quite a lot lately. Not saying t is op but claiming terran is weak is bullshit.
Edit: Read wrong. Still think terran is able to fight late game quite well. Evidence: terran winning a lot.
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On October 06 2014 05:30 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 05:20 TheDwf wrote:On October 06 2014 04:55 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:
why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
And Innovation won a GSL with 2raxes and 2base tank/marine allins and came close to winning one with hellbat allins.(people regularily keep on forfetting what builds Innovation actually used when he got "cheesed out" bx soulkey. Which sorts of builds actually put him in a 3-0 lead) ?? There were no Hellbat all-ins in that series. Game 1: 2 rax Game 2: Hellbat drop 3OC Game 3: initially Hellbat drop, changes direction towards normal 3OC after Soulkey's bane bust Game 4: 3OC Game 5: 3OC Game 6: 2 rax Game 7: Hellbat drop 3OC On October 06 2014 05:16 ReMinD_ wrote:
Terrans now winning every tournament. A race with powerful cheeses and pressure builds that can all easily end the game, are hard to scout and easy to transition out of. Powerful mid and late game. You know what that reminds of? Protoss before this last patch. Hahahaha You consider terran mid and late game weak? It must be that korean terran magic then why they are winning quite a lot lately. Not saying t is op but claiming terran is weak is bullshit.
Read again what I bolded...
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On October 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:
To be honest it would be great to have some statistics on how often 2-rax succeeded in top tournaments. Pretty sure it has really high success rate. Based on Korean Terran games I saw the last few months: From 16 July* to the end of the month: 3 wins 5 losses August: 7 wins 6 losses September: 5 wins 4 losses October so far: 3 wins 3 losses Occurrence: 36 instances out of 431 TvZ = 8.3% Winrate: 18 wins 18 losses = 50% * Don't have data before + Show Spoiler [Data] +JulyJourney vs Jaedong, Merry, The Big One Group stage SuperNova vs TLO, Overgrowth, The Big One Group stage MMA vs Revival, Overgrowth, The Big One Group stage MMA vs Revival, Nimbus, The Big One Group stage SuperNova vs Life, Overgrowth, The Big One RO8 Maru vs Sleep, Overgrowth, Proleague Playoffs jjakji vs Sacsri, Merry, IEM Toronto Europe qualifier Apocalypse vs bly, King Sejong, Red Bull Battlegrounds Global Qualifier #3 AugustCenter vs Life, Merry, Dragon Invitational #4 KeeN vs RagnaroK, Merry, Dragon Invitational #4 KeeN vs RagnaroK, Overgrowth, Dragon Invitational #4 Bogus vs Snute, Deadwing, Destiny I Center vs RagnaroK, Merry, Dragon Invitational #4 Bogus vs Life, Merry, Destiny I Bogus vs Life, Deadwing, Destiny I Center vs RagnaroK, Deadwing, Pughcraft Invitational Center vs RagnaroK, Overgrowth, Pughcraft Invitational Bogus vs Leenock, King Sejong, Acer vs yoeFW Showmatch Flash vs Dark, King Sejong, Code S RO32 Flash vs Solar, Overgrowth, Code S RO32 Bogus vs RagnaroK, King Sejong, Summer S SeptemberFlash vs TRUE, Deadwing, Code S RO16 Journey vs Revival, Overgrowth, OlimoLeague Week #5 MMA vs HyuN, Overgrowth, MSI Beat It Europe Qualifier LR4 Maru vs Dark, Deadwing, MSI Beat It Korean Qualifier #2 RO8 MMA vs Snute, Deadwing, DH Moscow RO4 MMA vs Snute, Merry, DH Moscow RO4 Center vs Revival, Overgrowth, OlimoLeague Week #6 RO16 MarineKing vs Armani, Merry, OlimoLeague Week #7 Final ForGG vs Sacsri, King Sejong, DH Stockhlom Group Stage 3 OctoberBogus vs soO, Foxtrot, Code S Final Bogus vs soO, Merry, Code S Final GuMiho vs Leenock, Overgrowth, Leifeng Cup 16 MarineKing vs LosirA, Merry, Leifeng Cup 16 GuMiho vs LosirA, King Sejong, Leifeng Cup 16 GuMiho vs LosirA, Deadwing, Leifeng Cup 16
Thx a ton you're bringing the constitency this discussion was severly lacking.
Also wanna add for further demonstration 2 great defense against the "Prince of 2 Rax", Maru:
SPL Round 4 playoff finals soO vs Maru "Standard" 2 rax , beautiful defense from soO with transition into macro game.
SPL Round 4 Week 3 Soulkey vs Maru Gangnam Terran 2 rax, easily shut down by Soulkey who then crushes a semi on tilt maru. (was right after Maru had defeated soulkey in WCS Korea season 2, which makes it even better)
These don't show anything statistically, but demonstrate that good micro beats even the best 2rax-er in the world 
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On October 06 2014 05:31 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 05:30 RaFox17 wrote:On October 06 2014 05:20 TheDwf wrote:On October 06 2014 04:55 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:
why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
And Innovation won a GSL with 2raxes and 2base tank/marine allins and came close to winning one with hellbat allins.(people regularily keep on forfetting what builds Innovation actually used when he got "cheesed out" bx soulkey. Which sorts of builds actually put him in a 3-0 lead) ?? There were no Hellbat all-ins in that series. Game 1: 2 rax Game 2: Hellbat drop 3OC Game 3: initially Hellbat drop, changes direction towards normal 3OC after Soulkey's bane bust Game 4: 3OC Game 5: 3OC Game 6: 2 rax Game 7: Hellbat drop 3OC On October 06 2014 05:16 ReMinD_ wrote:
Terrans now winning every tournament. A race with powerful cheeses and pressure builds that can all easily end the game, are hard to scout and easy to transition out of. Powerful mid and late game. You know what that reminds of? Protoss before this last patch. Hahahaha You consider terran mid and late game weak? It must be that korean terran magic then why they are winning quite a lot lately. Not saying t is op but claiming terran is weak is bullshit. Read again what I bolded...
You consider terran mid and late game weak? It must be that korean terran magic then why they are winning quite a lot lately. Not saying t is op but claiming terran is weak is bullshit.
Edit: Read wrong. Still think terran is able to fight late game quite well. Evidence: terran winning a lot.
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EPT
