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On October 06 2014 05:20 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 04:55 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:
why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
And Innovation won a GSL with 2raxes and 2base tank/marine allins and came close to winning one with hellbat allins.(people regularily keep on forfetting what builds Innovation actually used when he got "cheesed out" bx soulkey. Which sorts of builds actually put him in a 3-0 lead) ?? There were no Hellbat all-ins in that series. Game 1: 2 rax Game 2: Hellbat drop 3OC Game 3: initially Hellbat drop, changes direction towards normal 3OC after Soulkey's bane bust Game 4: 3OC Game 5: 3OC Game 6: 2 rax Game 7: Hellbat drop 3OC
If you consider a roach/baneling bust an allin despite getting 3bases with it, or even more the 65drone speedroach/speedbane an allin/cheese, then you really have to consider 2base hellbat drops with delayed third/stim/upgrades one as well.
So either you only count that one 2base ling/bling as a cheese from Soulkey - then it is 2-1 in cheeses for Innovation with his two 2raxes - or you count all of these builds - then it is 5-4 for Innovation. With either perspective, Innovation cheesed/allined just as much or more than Soulkey.
soO even showed us this weekend that if he gets scouted early, he just abandons and plays from slightly behind. How is that different than a hellbat drop build that also plays from slightly behind if it doesn't catch the opponent offguard? (like against Soulkey game 7)
While if he doesn't get scouted early... well he just wins.
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On October 06 2014 05:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 05:20 TheDwf wrote:On October 06 2014 04:55 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:
why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
And Innovation won a GSL with 2raxes and 2base tank/marine allins and came close to winning one with hellbat allins.(people regularily keep on forfetting what builds Innovation actually used when he got "cheesed out" bx soulkey. Which sorts of builds actually put him in a 3-0 lead) ?? There were no Hellbat all-ins in that series. Game 1: 2 rax Game 2: Hellbat drop 3OC Game 3: initially Hellbat drop, changes direction towards normal 3OC after Soulkey's bane bust Game 4: 3OC Game 5: 3OC Game 6: 2 rax Game 7: Hellbat drop 3OC If you consider a roach/baneling bust an allin despite getting 3bases with it, or even more the 65drone speedroach/speedbane an allin/cheese
I don't a priori, only the defence determines whether the push was all-in or not.
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On October 06 2014 05:33 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 05:31 TheDwf wrote:On October 06 2014 05:30 RaFox17 wrote:On October 06 2014 05:20 TheDwf wrote:On October 06 2014 04:55 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:
why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
And Innovation won a GSL with 2raxes and 2base tank/marine allins and came close to winning one with hellbat allins.(people regularily keep on forfetting what builds Innovation actually used when he got "cheesed out" bx soulkey. Which sorts of builds actually put him in a 3-0 lead) ?? There were no Hellbat all-ins in that series. Game 1: 2 rax Game 2: Hellbat drop 3OC Game 3: initially Hellbat drop, changes direction towards normal 3OC after Soulkey's bane bust Game 4: 3OC Game 5: 3OC Game 6: 2 rax Game 7: Hellbat drop 3OC On October 06 2014 05:16 ReMinD_ wrote:
Terrans now winning every tournament. A race with powerful cheeses and pressure builds that can all easily end the game, are hard to scout and easy to transition out of. Powerful mid and late game. You know what that reminds of? Protoss before this last patch. Hahahaha You consider terran mid and late game weak? It must be that korean terran magic then why they are winning quite a lot lately. Not saying t is op but claiming terran is weak is bullshit. Read again what I bolded... You consider terran mid and late game weak? It must be that korean terran magic then why they are winning quite a lot lately. Not saying t is op but claiming terran is weak is bullshit. Edit: Read wrong. Still think terran is able to fight late game quite well. Evidence: terran winning a lot.
Just because terrans win doesn't mean that Terran lategame is strong; most aren't winning in the lategame.
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On October 06 2014 05:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 05:20 TheDwf wrote:On October 06 2014 04:55 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:
why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
And Innovation won a GSL with 2raxes and 2base tank/marine allins and came close to winning one with hellbat allins.(people regularily keep on forfetting what builds Innovation actually used when he got "cheesed out" bx soulkey. Which sorts of builds actually put him in a 3-0 lead) ?? There were no Hellbat all-ins in that series. Game 1: 2 rax Game 2: Hellbat drop 3OC Game 3: initially Hellbat drop, changes direction towards normal 3OC after Soulkey's bane bust Game 4: 3OC Game 5: 3OC Game 6: 2 rax Game 7: Hellbat drop 3OC If you consider a roach/baneling bust an allin despite getting 3bases with it, or even more the 65drone speedroach/speedbane an allin/cheese, then you really have to consider 2base hellbat drops with delayed third/stim/upgrades one as well. So either you only count that one 2base ling/bling as a cheese from Soulkey - then it is 2-1 in cheeses for Innovation with his two 2raxes - or you count all of these builds - then it is 5-4 for Innovation. With either perspective, Innovation cheesed/allined just as much or more than Soulkey. soO even showed us this weekend that if he gets scouted early, he just abandons and plays from slightly behind. How is that different than a hellbat drop build that also plays from slightly behind if it doesn't catch the opponent offguard? (like against Soulkey game 7) While if he doesn't get scouted early... well he just wins.
In Innovation vs. Soulkey, Soulkey's ling/bling bust was allin because he had no followup at all. Innovation's hellbat drops are like hellion/banshee: it's nice if they don't get scouted, but if they do, they can still do some damage and even if they don't Terran is only slightly behind, if at all, as they have a third down at around 7 minutes and upgrades started around 8.
Soulkey's roach/baneling was especially allin in that series because he was playing against 3OC with fast upgrades; he would have been too far behind in upgrades to compete in a long game without bringing Innovation under 20 workers. If terran's upgrades are slower (as they are most of the time nowadays), then Zerg can bust, drone up behind, and start 1/1 around 10 minutes and be less than a full upgrade behind, and as a result, it is less allin.
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On October 06 2014 05:49 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 05:45 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 05:20 TheDwf wrote:On October 06 2014 04:55 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:
why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
And Innovation won a GSL with 2raxes and 2base tank/marine allins and came close to winning one with hellbat allins.(people regularily keep on forfetting what builds Innovation actually used when he got "cheesed out" bx soulkey. Which sorts of builds actually put him in a 3-0 lead) ?? There were no Hellbat all-ins in that series. Game 1: 2 rax Game 2: Hellbat drop 3OC Game 3: initially Hellbat drop, changes direction towards normal 3OC after Soulkey's bane bust Game 4: 3OC Game 5: 3OC Game 6: 2 rax Game 7: Hellbat drop 3OC If you consider a roach/baneling bust an allin despite getting 3bases with it, or even more the 65drone speedroach/speedbane an allin/cheese I don't a priori, only the defence determines whether the push was all-in or not.
That makes of course sense in terms of a specific game. But isnt really the definition that is commonly used and by which I was arguing.
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On October 06 2014 05:16 ReMinD_ wrote:
Terrans now winning every tournament. A race with powerful cheeses and pressure builds that can all easily end the game, are hard to scout and easy to transition out of. Powerful mid and late game. You know what that reminds of? Protoss before this last patch.
Lets not get crazy here, Terran needs to win about 5 more consecutive premiere tournaments before we reach that point...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZI0rQjc.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iQf9hwA.png)
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The game is at the point right now where it can be balanced by changing the map pool, if Protoss isn't doing too well just add blink maps, and if Zerg isn't doing well add more open maps. Really hope there's no more balance patches before LotV barring someone breaking the meta.
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On October 06 2014 05:56 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 05:45 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 05:20 TheDwf wrote:On October 06 2014 04:55 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:
why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
And Innovation won a GSL with 2raxes and 2base tank/marine allins and came close to winning one with hellbat allins.(people regularily keep on forfetting what builds Innovation actually used when he got "cheesed out" bx soulkey. Which sorts of builds actually put him in a 3-0 lead) ?? There were no Hellbat all-ins in that series. Game 1: 2 rax Game 2: Hellbat drop 3OC Game 3: initially Hellbat drop, changes direction towards normal 3OC after Soulkey's bane bust Game 4: 3OC Game 5: 3OC Game 6: 2 rax Game 7: Hellbat drop 3OC If you consider a roach/baneling bust an allin despite getting 3bases with it, or even more the 65drone speedroach/speedbane an allin/cheese, then you really have to consider 2base hellbat drops with delayed third/stim/upgrades one as well. So either you only count that one 2base ling/bling as a cheese from Soulkey - then it is 2-1 in cheeses for Innovation with his two 2raxes - or you count all of these builds - then it is 5-4 for Innovation. With either perspective, Innovation cheesed/allined just as much or more than Soulkey. soO even showed us this weekend that if he gets scouted early, he just abandons and plays from slightly behind. How is that different than a hellbat drop build that also plays from slightly behind if it doesn't catch the opponent offguard? (like against Soulkey game 7) While if he doesn't get scouted early... well he just wins. In Innovation vs. Soulkey, Soulkey's ling/bling bust was allin because he had no followup at all. Innovation's hellbat drops are like hellion/banshee: it's nice if they don't get scouted, but if they do, they can still do some damage and even if they don't Terran is only slightly behind, if at all, as they have a third down at around 7 minutes and upgrades started around 8. Soulkey's roach/baneling was especially allin in that series because he was playing against 3OC with fast upgrades; he would have been too far behind in upgrades to compete in a long game without bringing Innovation under 20 workers. If terran's upgrades are slower (as they are most of the time nowadays), then Zerg can bust, drone up behind, and start 1/1 around 10 minutes and be less than a full upgrade behind, and as a result, it is less allin.
Roach/baneling always does damage. And you still get your third on time and 60drones in 10mins. So i take it is like hellion/banshee as well? Or are we again using two kinds of measures? A failed roach/bane hardly ever straight up loses. It usually takes 1-2mins to even see who actually has the advantage afer the dust has settled and the Terran survives.
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On October 06 2014 06:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 05:56 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On October 06 2014 05:45 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 05:20 TheDwf wrote:On October 06 2014 04:55 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 04:51 Charoisaur wrote:
why is it okay for zerg to have incredibly powerful banelingbusts and roach timings but its not okay for terran to have a good allin too?
Is only zerg allowed to use allins? I see much more zerg allins in the matchup than terran allins.
Soulkey won a gsl by doing almost exclusively allins and soo came close to do the same.
But when a zerg is winning it is no problem.
TLDR: 2 rax is strong but zerg has equally strong allins if not even stronger ones.
And Innovation won a GSL with 2raxes and 2base tank/marine allins and came close to winning one with hellbat allins.(people regularily keep on forfetting what builds Innovation actually used when he got "cheesed out" bx soulkey. Which sorts of builds actually put him in a 3-0 lead) ?? There were no Hellbat all-ins in that series. Game 1: 2 rax Game 2: Hellbat drop 3OC Game 3: initially Hellbat drop, changes direction towards normal 3OC after Soulkey's bane bust Game 4: 3OC Game 5: 3OC Game 6: 2 rax Game 7: Hellbat drop 3OC If you consider a roach/baneling bust an allin despite getting 3bases with it, or even more the 65drone speedroach/speedbane an allin/cheese, then you really have to consider 2base hellbat drops with delayed third/stim/upgrades one as well. So either you only count that one 2base ling/bling as a cheese from Soulkey - then it is 2-1 in cheeses for Innovation with his two 2raxes - or you count all of these builds - then it is 5-4 for Innovation. With either perspective, Innovation cheesed/allined just as much or more than Soulkey. soO even showed us this weekend that if he gets scouted early, he just abandons and plays from slightly behind. How is that different than a hellbat drop build that also plays from slightly behind if it doesn't catch the opponent offguard? (like against Soulkey game 7) While if he doesn't get scouted early... well he just wins. In Innovation vs. Soulkey, Soulkey's ling/bling bust was allin because he had no followup at all. Innovation's hellbat drops are like hellion/banshee: it's nice if they don't get scouted, but if they do, they can still do some damage and even if they don't Terran is only slightly behind, if at all, as they have a third down at around 7 minutes and upgrades started around 8. Soulkey's roach/baneling was especially allin in that series because he was playing against 3OC with fast upgrades; he would have been too far behind in upgrades to compete in a long game without bringing Innovation under 20 workers. If terran's upgrades are slower (as they are most of the time nowadays), then Zerg can bust, drone up behind, and start 1/1 around 10 minutes and be less than a full upgrade behind, and as a result, it is less allin. Roach/baneling always does damage. And you still get your third on time and 60drones in 10mins. So i take it is like hellion/banshee as well? Or are we again using two kinds of measures? A failed roach/bane hardly ever straight up loses. It usually takes 1-2mins to even see who actually has the advantage afer the dust has settled and the Terran survives.
That's just not true. If a Zerg goes for any type of all in and it fails to deal significant damage, Zerg is behind majorly. Zerg sacrifices either tech, drones, the forth, or upgrades or any combination thereoff to get units out on the field. It's usually pretty easy to say who is ahead or not. You look at the worker counts (Add approx 15 to Terran), looking at the critical upgrades (Stim cancelled? 1/1 done?) and loss of production. You can quite accurately gauge who came out on top.
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Lets not get crazy here, Terran needs to win about 5 more consecutive premiere tournaments before we reach that point...
Well, Innovation just won Code-S, and WCS EU will have a TvT final, so you can add 2 more.
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On October 06 2014 05:16 ReMinD_ wrote:
Terrans now winning every tournament. A race with powerful cheeses and pressure builds that can all easily end the game, are hard to scout and easy to transition out of. Powerful mid and late game. You know what that reminds of? Protoss before this last patch.
Not sure where you get this, what strategies are talking about?
Gas first in TvP?
Hellbats in TVZ?
Except the occasional 2 rax (wich has been around forever) most terran wins come from macro games, Flash vs Zest was ghost viking every game, Inno only did 2 base tank pushes as response to soO's roaches, from all terran MUs only TvT is 1 base aggression 80% of the time, also terrans doing well is only resently, not even a season has passed since it started, the protoss dominance was only addresed after many months with the same trend and most of it was map pool and small changes.
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I also think that you should not draw to much from the choices innovation made in 1 series. The decision to cheese or not on a pro level when you are a player like innovation often comes down more to mind games then the actual strength of your build. Innovation is probably the most straight up standard tvz player in the world so when he mixes in allins a big part of it is banking on the fact that its unexpected specifically from him. Its like when rain mixes in allins in pvt.
Imo heavy allin play should really only be of concern if it is the norm. Ie. season 2 of gsl (aka the season of 2 raxes) or more recently the ubiquitous use of blink allins. one series between two specific players should not be looked into to much.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On October 06 2014 05:16 ReMinD_ wrote:
Terrans now winning every tournament. A race with powerful cheeses and pressure builds that can all easily end the game, are hard to scout and easy to transition out of. Powerful mid and late game. You know what that reminds of? Protoss before this last patch.
From Protoss view:
Nope, it is just incredible terran favored map pool and predictability of P(which may be a problem of current meta). That's all. And a light nerf to Protoss all ins, but mostly the map pool. In BO3 you can veto the worst maps and hope to win, in BO5 you are screwed. You will have there two of:
Catallena - you spawn on the bottom position, you lost the game. Almost 360° drop radius, happy defending. Why is there the air space... I don't get it, when the biggest part of units is in fact GROUND units. Though the map has a positive thing - it can be called Leenock map! 
Deadwing - once you realize how open to drops is the air space under(over) your natural, oh boy. Not enough observers!
Foxtrot Labs - So pros veto this map because of pathing bug, can you imagine happening this in some real sport? Yes, this is why eSport cannot be taken seriously... at least SC2 cannot. Blizzard, any response? No? I am not surprised, they are looking for the colossus bug in a different HotS.
Nimbus - drop the protoss into eternity. Also THE map where Colossus phoenix is the usual stuff. When some terrans were talking how easy is to drop P on Overgrowth, what is their opinion on the Nimbus map then...  Also, a note, you cannot defend the ramp with nexus cannon(it is not a small cosmetic if you think about it)
All the maps are OKish against 98 % of the ladder population, because those T doesn't have the multitasking to drop properly, the defense is easier. But the top 2 % where the multitasking starts to kick in?
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On October 06 2014 11:53 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 05:16 ReMinD_ wrote:
Terrans now winning every tournament. A race with powerful cheeses and pressure builds that can all easily end the game, are hard to scout and easy to transition out of. Powerful mid and late game. You know what that reminds of? Protoss before this last patch. Not sure where you get this, what strategies are talking about? Gas first in TvP? Hellbats in TVZ? Except the occasional 2 rax (wich has been around forever) most terran wins come from macro games, Flash vs Zest was ghost viking every game, Inno only did 2 base tank pushes as response to soO's roaches, from all terran MUs only TvT is 1 base aggression 80% of the time, also terrans doing well is only resently, not even a season has passed since it started, the protoss dominance was only addresed after many months with the same trend and most of it was map pool and small changes.
He is probably talking about these build orders (for TvZ at least):
powerful cheeses in TvZ: 2rax, 8-8-8, double factory blue flame, hellbat push
powerful pressure builds in TvZ: hellion/medivac/marine, 3reaper, hellion/banshee, 11min 1/1 push, fast WM drop
And that's not the full list, that's rather just the more recently played ones. You can probably add a ton of old builds like the 2base marine/tank/medivac or a 2base MMMM play, or a hellion/marine or hellbat/marine or hellion/marauder or hellbat/marauder play and so on, which are not being played often but surely not forgotten and will probably be played again.
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Those builds are a bitch to deal with. The worst are those who are on 2base 'cause you know it's fishy when there's no expand by 4/5 minutes on ZvT.
Didn't see an 8/8/8 for now. I saw 2rax and held it quite nicely (but i played WoL :p). Hellbat push is the more ccommon.
The 6/8rines 8ish hellbat push on 2base (Flash vs Snute) is really really hard to stop (if you don't scout it of course).
There's the hellbat/marauder push on 1base too. You need roaches to kill HB quickly and then lings for marauder. But if you let just one HB alive when you make the glings... you are doomed.
But they are all stopable... even if it's hard. I have more trouble with standard opening at my level than against cheese from T.
Every race starts to dominate after a patch. Takes a little time to figure out how to stop those new things. Remember the servos upgrades buff ? it was imposssible to play ZvT. Now it's not that common.
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I still think the biggest problem in TvZ is hellbat push. Zerg cant (or very hard time to) scout armory in time. Terrans obviously producing hellions and IF they are close to 3rdHatch they are morphing to hellbats.
Atleast I havent seen a zerg in the last 3 months who has scouted armory in time and builds roach warren as respond.
My suggestion: If you produce hellions you cant morph to hellbats without an upgrade ability from armory (hellbats->hellions works without upgrade but you need the upgrade if you want back to hellbats). Seriously the morph shortly before attacking 3rdHatch IS the problem. If zerg can hold with zerglings vs hellions, thats ok, but if they morph to hellbats, then zerlings are bad.
edit: upgrade <-> transformation servos
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On October 06 2014 19:20 Dingodile wrote:
I still think the biggest problem in TvZ is hellbat push. Zerg cant (or very hard time to) scout armory in time. Terrans obviously producing hellions and IF they are close to 3rdHatch they are morphing to hellbats.
Atleast I havent seen a zerg in the last 3 months who has scouted armory in time and builds roach warren as respond.
My suggestion: If you produce hellions you cant morph to hellbats without an upgrade ability from armory (hellbats->hellions works without upgrade but you need the upgrade if you want back to hellbats). Seriously the morph shortly before attacking 3rdHatch IS the problem. If zerg can hold with zerglings vs hellions, thats ok, but if they morph to hellbats, then zerlings are bad.
edit: upgrade <-> transformation servos
If the scouting options are there (and it's a relatively well known timing - I suspect it's still not a big enough issue to most players) then you can only blame players for not scouting. (Similarly to 2 rax - should be very easy to see coming but you just don't see drone scouts).
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On October 06 2014 19:20 Dingodile wrote:
I still think the biggest problem in TvZ is hellbat push. Zerg cant (or very hard time to) scout armory in time. Terrans obviously producing hellions and IF they are close to 3rdHatch they are morphing to hellbats.
Atleast I havent seen a zerg in the last 3 months who has scouted armory in time and builds roach warren as respond.
My suggestion: If you produce hellions you cant morph to hellbats without an upgrade ability from armory (hellbats->hellions works without upgrade but you need the upgrade if you want back to hellbats). Seriously the morph shortly before attacking 3rdHatch IS the problem. If zerg can hold with zerglings vs hellions, thats ok, but if they morph to hellbats, then zerlings are bad.
edit: upgrade <-> transformation servos
I don't think it is a big problem. It's just one of those builds that are:
1. easy to execute;
2. tricky to scout;
3. dangerous even when scouted (thin margin of error for the defender);
4. forces serious defensive commitment from most builds;
5. yet has smooth transitions to various forms of play
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The problem with terran is that it's too forgiving; widow mine kills 10 units/workers? cool you win, doesn't do anything? np you lost 75/25. Your pressure didn't do enough damage or didn't kill the opponent? Np your units are easy to replenish, how often does terran completely fail a hellion drop marine push just to transition out easily?
Also PDD is a mistake.
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Well with my suggestion 1) zerg can scout at terran natural if there are hellbats so zerg does know now not to play greedy as usual and 2) hellbat push comes 1min later (due to transformation servos upgrade time) so zerg has a better conclusion that terran has most likely upgraded the transformation servos).
It's more predictable than what we have now from zerg perspective.
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EPT
