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On October 06 2014 23:48 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +The gist about knowing if it's going to be mech or not is about how much they protect their hellions.
If they are being overprotective of a slowly growing hellion count--then its a hellbat timing. If they are aggressively poking/running into worker lines, then its a bio transition. Good Terrans ALWAYS retain their hellions. Sacrificing ones hellions is stupid, because it severely weakens your first bio push in which you use the hellions (or since the patch your hellbats) to kill zergs that don't build banelings. Also it is stupid because for as long as you have hellions, you can deny creep and have quite some mapcontrol. And good Terrans don't give that up for the small chance that a Zerg might have built a few too few zerglings. Basically what I'm saying: losing hellions before 10mins is always wrong. The only thing you can read from that is that your opponent is bad.
Problem is that i'm just diamond. So the guy can go aggressive, lose almost all of them, but go for a HB push nontheless and if you are still on ling/bane transitioning to muta... you're fucked.
But i think the "more than 6" is a good thing if you can't scout the armory. How many barracks for a HB push ? (on 2base ?)
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On October 07 2014 00:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 23:59 RaFox17 wrote:On October 06 2014 23:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 06 2014 23:40 RaFox17 wrote:On October 06 2014 23:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
@FFW_Rude
But the number of worker kills is highly irrelevant due to build times for workers.
Zerg is hurt the least by losing workers while Terran is hurt the most. Larva + Chrono Boost allows early and late game loss of workers to be more easily replenished compared to Terran production. Meaning harass effectiveness is gauged very very differently from matchup to matchup.
I've seen Zerg losing 20-40 workers in a game and still be economically ahead. Conversely, I've seen terrans lose 5-10 workers early and never are able to recover. That's not to say that losing 20 drones is equal to losing 5 scvs, but it's the context of when the workers are lost and how often are they lost. Theres a huge difference between losing 5-10 workers in the early game and losing 20-30 workers late game. If zerg loses drones in the early game he is screwed if there is any attack coming soon. Also terran have mules that help when losing workers. I have also seen games where zerg loses 10 drones early and then simply dies when terran rolls over them with a follow up push. If you see a gene where zerg loses 20-40 drones to one push (if thats what you mean) and still in the lead you are watching a terrible bronze league match. Which part of "its context based" do you not understand? I've seen zergs be hit early game, mid game, and late game with drops killing workers here and there and even though they enter the late game with 30-40 worker losses to their opponents 2-5 worker losses the zerg is still ahead economically. The same would not be true for a terran player who loses workers continually from early game to late game. Of course killing 20-40 workers in one push is game ending. Because that means you have an entire army unmolested in their main with no way for them to kill it. Context man, context. Zerg is the race that can have heavy worker losses without being as hurt as the other 2. That is fact. It opens them up to timings, but that is separate from being unable to recover. Yes, if you kill 40 drones zerg can recover IF given time. If you kill 40 workers terran can recover IF you give them time etc. If you are a good player you won´t give zerg, terran or protoss time to recover and punish them. Many would say that mules enable terran to survive big worker losses as their core army needs less gas than Z/P. The reason that people say Terran can lose a lot of workers and still be fine "because MULES" is more because of mid/late game than early game. If Terran loses workers in the early game they are very much fucked. But MULES allow Terran (especially on 3 bases) to continue producing army long enough to buy themselves the time to remake SCVs (especially if they are threatening drops and being active on the map). I actually think P is the most vulnerable to losing lots of workers. Yes, we can chrono them out, but compared to dropping MULES or remaking 21 drones at once, it's much slower. Again, I'm talking mid-late game. Before the 3rd CC comes down losing workers is pretty serious for all races.
People give too much credit to the the MULE for what its worth, a 3CC will give you 3 MULES every 100 seconds-ish, with each MULE living for 90 seconds, with each MULE mining about 4 times what a worker does, it means during 90 out of every 100 seconds 3CC gives you the mining time of 12 workers, this taking into consideration 0 scans used, and not using workers to build/repair anything only for mining, so no losing workers in mid/late is not really forgiving either.
First you need to use scans constantly to clear creep/kill observers/spot the army/look for drop spots/look for bases, having no scans means your army is much weaker, also bio is the most mineral heavy composition of all the game, if we add that the fact that terran have the worst remax of all the races, the only scenario were is ok to lose SCV is lategame mech, but mech has is own pros and cons.
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
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On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment...
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On October 07 2014 00:50 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment...
Perhaps but you can make that case on behalf of Hellbat/WM/Map pool
MULEs on the other hand.
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On October 07 2014 00:51 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 00:50 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment... Perhaps but you can make that case on behalf of Hellbat/WM/Map pool MULEs on the other hand.
Well I was just trying to say that discussing MULES doesn't imply the rest of the game isn't broken. Given the current map pool, widow mines, and hellbats, I don't think a Terran can lose a Bo5+ unless his opponent is much better.
Innovation is like the perfect Terran imbarometer. His win rates rise and fall in perfect correlation with Terran patches. 
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On October 06 2014 20:57 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 20:28 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 06 2014 20:14 Extenz wrote:
The problem with terran is that it's too forgiving; widow mine kills 10 units/workers? cool you win, doesn't do anything? np you lost 75/25. Your pressure didn't do enough damage or didn't kill the opponent? Np your units are easy to replenish, how often does terran completely fail a hellion drop marine push just to transition out easily?
Also PDD is a mistake. Wow, what a great piece of text! You really convinced me with the excellent nuancing you put in your statements, man! Mine kills 10 workers, Zerg made a mistake. Mine dies without doing a thing, that's a bummer for Terran. He lost time, resources and a precious AOE source. Pressure didn't do enough damage? Terran is now behind. Terran never smoothly, unscathedly transitions out of failed pressure. Just to compare: The problem with Zerg is that it's too forgiving; Baneling kills 10 units/workers? cool you win, doesn't do anything? np you lost 50/25. Your pressure didn't do enough damage or didn't kill the opponent? Np your units are easy to replenish, building faster and cheaper than any T unit how often does Zerg completely fail a Ling Baneling all in push just to transition out easily? Also Swarm Host is a mistake. Just for the fun of it (i'm not that serious) - WM don't die after shooting. - Banelings don't shoot air units (i would love that) - A banelings cost the same price as a WM (you have to build the ling).- Fail a baneling bust and you are DEAD (because you have no army left :p). Fail a WM drop... well you can pick 'em up. But you are not that far behind. - Swarm host are a mistake. :p Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 20:31 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 06 2014 20:15 Dingodile wrote:
Well with my suggestion 1) zerg can scout at terran natural if there are hellbats so zerg does know now not to play greedy as usual and 2) hellbat push comes 1min later (due to transformation servos upgrade time) so zerg has a better conclusion that terran has most likely upgraded the transformation servos).
It's more predictable than what we have now from zerg perspective. Zerg doesn't need to spot the Armory. There's multiple tells, really. A) Over 6 hellions are produced B) 2nd gas is taken and no banshees are started C) 3rd CC is delayed D) Marines and/or Medivacs move out E) Terran heavilly tries to retain the initial Hellions, not taking any risk. When in doubt, throw down a baneling nest or roach warren. It's not that expensive. We barely see this build in pro play anymore because good Zergs read the tells and adapt. This is really good information. A) More than 6hellions can mean mech no ? (or will the guy push anyway if he is doing mech ?). Do we need to lookout for marine count ? B) when marines are positionned, you just can't scout the main before ovie speed. (map depend and number of pos dependant too) C) Same, how do you know when ovie is denied ? (if the guy kept it in his main for exemple). D) Well that's a little too late (cause if you build a warren and need banes...) E) Do you mean that a bio player will try to sacrifice the hellions for drones ?
Firstly nitpicking :D!
A baneling costs 50/25,, not 75/25. To gain 1 baneling, you pay 25/25 for the morph and 25/0 for the Zergling.
A) More than six Hellions can mean Mech, yes. However, Mech as well as bio wants to apply some early pressure, using builds that will mostly be quite similar. To spot a mech transition out of this, you can look out for:
Aa) Fast 3/4 Gas
Ab) No Stim research
Ac) obvious stuff, like extra factories, armories, no barracks.
B) You don't need the full scout. Gladly in current SC2 there is no map available where you cannot poke into either the gasses, the main wall of location (which is where production should be) and you'll always have vision over the natural. By process of elimination you can find a lot of stuff.
C) The same case, proper scouting and eliminating options should give you plenty of information. Marine scouts don't deny Overlord scouting. You can always fly in and suicide an overlord early game, as Marine numbers will just be too low to shut it down.
D) I'm of the opinion mentaly preparing for the all in that is incoming is just as important as having the blocks in place. I can open 14 pool and still respond like shit to a 9 pool if I don't see the lings coming across, just because I'm shocked.
Roaches and Banelings won't be out on time if the move out comes, but you can pull all Queens to the front and start 2 extra, make a ton of Zerglings, possibly a Spine if you are greatly underprepared.
E) What I mean is that a player that is going for a Hellion attack (be it Blueflame, be it Hellbats) will not run the risk of them dieing. So while I might opt to sacrifice a hellion or a ton of health for a possible queen kill when playing standard, I will never do that when I know it gravely weakens my attack. Hellions running into your main base instantly cross off hellion based followups.
I hope you sort of understand how it works now !
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[/Innovation is like the perfect Terran imbarometer. His win rates rise and fall in perfect correlation with Terran patches.
sry, but that is the biggest bullshit i have ever heard. if you remember he was the best terran at the end of wol and one of four remaining players in the gsl in the power of protoss era.
of course he didn't dominate like when terran was strong but who dominates the game when their race is severely underpowered.
Did mc dominate during the 1/1/1 era? no? well then he is the perfect protoss imbarometer because he didn't dominate when protoss was weak.
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On October 07 2014 00:56 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 20:57 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 06 2014 20:28 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 06 2014 20:14 Extenz wrote:
The problem with terran is that it's too forgiving; widow mine kills 10 units/workers? cool you win, doesn't do anything? np you lost 75/25. Your pressure didn't do enough damage or didn't kill the opponent? Np your units are easy to replenish, how often does terran completely fail a hellion drop marine push just to transition out easily?
Also PDD is a mistake. Wow, what a great piece of text! You really convinced me with the excellent nuancing you put in your statements, man! Mine kills 10 workers, Zerg made a mistake. Mine dies without doing a thing, that's a bummer for Terran. He lost time, resources and a precious AOE source. Pressure didn't do enough damage? Terran is now behind. Terran never smoothly, unscathedly transitions out of failed pressure. Just to compare: The problem with Zerg is that it's too forgiving; Baneling kills 10 units/workers? cool you win, doesn't do anything? np you lost 50/25. Your pressure didn't do enough damage or didn't kill the opponent? Np your units are easy to replenish, building faster and cheaper than any T unit how often does Zerg completely fail a Ling Baneling all in push just to transition out easily? Also Swarm Host is a mistake. Just for the fun of it (i'm not that serious) - WM don't die after shooting. - Banelings don't shoot air units (i would love that) - A banelings cost the same price as a WM (you have to build the ling).- Fail a baneling bust and you are DEAD (because you have no army left :p). Fail a WM drop... well you can pick 'em up. But you are not that far behind. - Swarm host are a mistake. :p On October 06 2014 20:31 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 06 2014 20:15 Dingodile wrote:
Well with my suggestion 1) zerg can scout at terran natural if there are hellbats so zerg does know now not to play greedy as usual and 2) hellbat push comes 1min later (due to transformation servos upgrade time) so zerg has a better conclusion that terran has most likely upgraded the transformation servos).
It's more predictable than what we have now from zerg perspective. Zerg doesn't need to spot the Armory. There's multiple tells, really. A) Over 6 hellions are produced B) 2nd gas is taken and no banshees are started C) 3rd CC is delayed D) Marines and/or Medivacs move out E) Terran heavilly tries to retain the initial Hellions, not taking any risk. When in doubt, throw down a baneling nest or roach warren. It's not that expensive. We barely see this build in pro play anymore because good Zergs read the tells and adapt. This is really good information. A) More than 6hellions can mean mech no ? (or will the guy push anyway if he is doing mech ?). Do we need to lookout for marine count ? B) when marines are positionned, you just can't scout the main before ovie speed. (map depend and number of pos dependant too) C) Same, how do you know when ovie is denied ? (if the guy kept it in his main for exemple). D) Well that's a little too late (cause if you build a warren and need banes...) E) Do you mean that a bio player will try to sacrifice the hellions for drones ? Firstly nitpicking :D! A baneling costs 50/25,, not 75/25. To gain 1 baneling, you pay 25/25 for the morph and 25/0 for the Zergling. A) More than six Hellions can mean Mech, yes. However, Mech as well as bio wants to apply some early pressure, using builds that will mostly be quite similar. To spot a mech transition out of this, you can look out for: Aa) Fast 3/4 Gas Ab) No Stim research Ac) obvious stuff, like extra factories, armories, no barracks. B) You don't need the full scout. Gladly in current SC2 there is no map available where you cannot poke into either the gasses, the main wall of location (which is where production should be) and you'll always have vision over the natural. By process of elimination you can find a lot of stuff. C) The same case, proper scouting and eliminating options should give you plenty of information. Marine scouts don't deny Overlord scouting. You can always fly in and suicide an overlord early game, as Marine numbers will just be too low to shut it down. D) I'm of the opinion mentaly preparing for the all in that is incoming is just as important as having the blocks in place. I can open 14 pool and still respond like shit to a 9 pool if I don't see the lings coming across, just because I'm shocked. Roaches and Banelings won't be out on time if the move out comes, but you can pull all Queens to the front and start 2 extra, make a ton of Zerglings, possibly a Spine if you are greatly underprepared. E) What I mean is that a player that is going for a Hellion attack (be it Blueflame, be it Hellbats) will not run the risk of them dieing. So while I might opt to sacrifice a hellion or a ton of health for a possible queen kill when playing standard, I will never do that when I know it gravely weakens my attack. Hellions running into your main base instantly cross off hellion based followups. I hope you sort of understand how it works now !
haha but you can't make 1ling :p so cost is the same ! because you need to build two. So it's not 25mins but 50 :p (oh i should add that burrowed baneling cost 100/100 more and don't fire automaticly). I WIN ! (in the war of nonesense arguemnts :p)
*insert bunker op buff from beta and 60hp Scv somewhere*
A) i was more concerned to hellbat than mech build. I deal with mech quite good for now (but i don't see it often).
Ab) Difficult to spot no stim imo. unless push with bio. If you scout no tech lab on rax you should see multiple factory
Ac) agree
B) True but it's still hard to see. But i see your point.
C) Oh no i mean i have a lot of players that start to pull a boxer on me (meaning the ovie never get to the base since marine intercept all ovies before they reach their destination).
D) Zergling against 8 hellbat will insta die. Even if you have 30ish. And queens fall to the marines so it's important to scout it at least when it gets out of his base.
E) I think that's what i'm going to keep here for the most obvious. Since if the guy goes in there and i see other hellion i can assume bad HB push. If hellion backs, i can assume HB push (again if i'm denied scouting).
I'm still very new to the diamond league so i'm still like a plat with luck for now. Terran seems really overpowered but i'm sure it's because i haven't figured out most thing i will face in diamond (since it's a lot more diverse than the league bellow)
Thanks for you explanation
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On October 06 2014 20:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 20:15 Dingodile wrote:
Well with my suggestion 1) zerg can scout at terran natural if there are hellbats so zerg does know now not to play greedy as usual and 2) hellbat push comes 1min later (due to transformation servos upgrade time) so zerg has a better conclusion that terran has most likely upgraded the transformation servos).
It's more predictable than what we have now from zerg perspective. Terran is not going to upgrade Trafo Servos. Ever. We had that, it didn't happen. It's clunky, takes too long and costs too much. Also it is not a real problem in terms of power of the hellion-hellbat. If you know on time it is coming you can basically just choose the right techs/units early enough and just win. The game in general has a serious scouting issue that makes it very easy to either deny scouts by killing them before they see something, or just building stuff where it is hard/unlikely to get scouted. But here it becomes a question of philosophy. Do you want information-based play or don't you want it.
I dont think we had that. with my suggestion you can produce hellbats without armory, only for the transformation you need armory+transformation servos. Its an huge difference for zerg if you detect hellbats at terran base or close to 3rdHatch (from hellion morph).
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Given the current map pool, widow mines, and hellbats, I don't think a Terran can lose a Bo5+ unless his opponent is much better.
Is fair of you to say that it is your opinión, but you are jumping to conclusions way too fast, we need to give it some time, and more importantly wait for the map pool, maps play a big role on the balance of the game after all.
And since the next season map pool is going to be, well what is going to be (lol) the more reason go give it some time.
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It's always fun seeing people argue in this thread
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On October 07 2014 01:16 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 00:56 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:51 Lexender wrote:On October 07 2014 00:50 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment... Perhaps but you can make that case on behalf of Hellbat/WM/Map pool MULEs on the other hand. Well I was just trying to say that discussing MULES doesn't imply the rest of the game isn't broken. Given the current map pool, widow mines, and hellbats, I don't think a Terran can lose a Bo5+ unless his opponent is much better.  sOs 3-0  RealityherO 3-1 SorryherO 3-1 BomberherO 3-0 FlashZest 3-0 YoDaDear 3-1 FanTaSyYongHwa 3-2 SuperNovaYongHwa 4-2 JourneyJim 3-1 SuperNovaeMotion 3-0 KeeN... Show nested quote +Innovation is like the perfect Terran imbarometer. His win rates rise and fall in perfect correlation with Terran patches. As evidenced by this or this? Patch 1.4.3 was such a heaven for Terran...
I wasn't only referring to TvP. And a lot of these have clear favorites.
Can't you guys take a joke? Come on.. I thought "imbarometer" was pretty clever. Say what you will, but he was great - then they nerfed widow mines and hellbats and he became not so great, then they re-buffed both those things and he won the GSL.
Lately T is quite strong and I think it's dishonest to ignore that...
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On October 07 2014 01:55 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote + Given the current map pool, widow mines, and hellbats, I don't think a Terran can lose a Bo5+ unless his opponent is much better.
Is fair of you to say that it is your opinión, but you are jumping to conclusions way too fast, we need to give it some time, and more importantly wait for the map pool, maps play a big role on the balance of the game after all. And since the next season map pool is going to be, well what is going to be (lol) the more reason go give it some time.
If they play real pro games on that map pool the games are going to be a farce.
But potentially very entertaining. I'm not sure if I want to see every Protoss going 10 gate on Steppes of War to stop the first Reaper from killing every probe though.
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Northern Ireland26794 Posts
On October 07 2014 00:50 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment...
Says the guy who said Blink allins were fine at the time 
Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously)
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On October 07 2014 02:07 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 01:16 TheDwf wrote:On October 07 2014 00:56 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:51 Lexender wrote:On October 07 2014 00:50 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment... Perhaps but you can make that case on behalf of Hellbat/WM/Map pool MULEs on the other hand. Well I was just trying to say that discussing MULES doesn't imply the rest of the game isn't broken. Given the current map pool, widow mines, and hellbats, I don't think a Terran can lose a Bo5+ unless his opponent is much better. sOs 3-0 RealityherO 3-1 SorryherO 3-1 BomberherO 3-0 FlashZest 3-0 YoDaDear 3-1 FanTaSyYongHwa 3-2 SuperNovaYongHwa 4-2 JourneyJim 3-1 SuperNovaeMotion 3-0 KeeN... Innovation is like the perfect Terran imbarometer. His win rates rise and fall in perfect correlation with Terran patches. As evidenced by this or this? Patch 1.4.3 was such a heaven for Terran... I wasn't only referring to TvP. And a lot of these have clear favorites. Can't you guys take a joke? Come on.. I thought "imbarometer" was pretty clever. Say what you will, but he was great - then they nerfed widow mines and hellbats and he became not so great, then they re-buffed both those things and he won the GSL. Lately T is quite strong and I think it's dishonest to ignore that...
Don´t be sad. I at least think "Imbarometer" was quite clever 
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On October 07 2014 02:11 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 00:50 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment... Says the guy who said Blink allins were fine at the time Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously)
They were fine, the Protoss won
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On October 07 2014 02:12 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:11 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 07 2014 00:50 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment... Says the guy who said Blink allins were fine at the time Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously) They were fine, the Protoss won
Dude Protoss is fine ATM, you just have to play more like Zest bro.
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On October 07 2014 02:11 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously)
Really? We must be watching very different games, I haven't seen a TvP recently where the win looked undeserved (from either side) recently, whereas with TvZ I think Terran might be a little too strong atm. But possibly because of timings / ect that are still being figured out, Z has always taken the longest to adapt to new all-ins / timings.
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On October 07 2014 02:25 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:11 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously) Really? We must be watching very different games, I haven't seen a TvP recently where the win looked undeserved (from either side) recently, whereas with TvZ I think Terran might be a little too strong atm. But possibly because of timings / ect that are still being figured out, Z has always taken the longest to adapt to new all-ins / timings.
That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P.
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EPT
